DreamChaser's Topics (45)

Same thoo

Like you aren't

Didn't say I wasn't.

r there any free websites to read this

Not that I know of! Tappytoon's pretty cheap, though.

You forget the part that Joowon asked him to be honest.
The "game" that both of them played has been going on FOR 10 YEARS.

Multiple times?
When?
When someone want to end things, they won't have sex with that person.
But he did, many times.
All I saw was a tsundere type of act. Saying no but willing to do it anyway.

All Joowon asked was Haesoo to tell him his feeling, but he stays silent.
He didn't say yes, he didn't say no.
He always complain about Joowon but always the first one to come to Joowon whenever something happen to Joowon.
That's totally tsundere type.

The part where Joowon met Haesoo's mom, you can read it again, Joowon literally challenging the mom because Joowon is serious about Haesoo.
She asked him to "break up" with Haesoo but Joowon refuse.

And Haesoo didn't want to lose his mom.
What can he do? Tell Joowon he didn't want to continue it.
Make it clear.
Instead, he still wants Joowon.
Joowon has been clear about his feeling all this time.

Yet it takes Haesoo 10 years, with cornering and force, for him to finally said he didn't want to continue the relationship.

Joowon maybe spoiled and arrogant person, but Haesoo is such a selfish person.
He knew he can't have both, but he didn't want to let go one of them for f*cking 10 years.

"Saying no but willing to do it anyway."

Being *willing,* or feeling like it's easier to just give in, isn't the same as wanting to. I think the blowjob in the car was the transition point between Haesoo actively choosing to sleep with Joowon, even if he hated himself for it, and Haesoo's reluctance being real. In that scene, Haesoo didn't want to do anything, tried to say no, and then eventually gave in because "He's not gonna leave me alone until I do it."

And, well, he was right. Joowon says, "You don't wanna do it? Well, too bad" right after.

(As a side note, I'm not going to argue fiction should reflect real consent, but being "tsundere" in real life doesn't matter; it doesn't matter what you think someone wants, it matters what they CHOOSE, and if you have to push and badger someone into sex with you, that's not real consent. Everyone should back down at the first sign of reluctance.)

In any case, that's not the point I was trying to make. I'm also not trying to say that Haesoo and Joowon don't love each other (though I think Joowon's more attached), so the scene with their mom isn't relevant either.

Haesoo and Joowon *both* continued that half-baked relationship for ten years.

> Yet it takes Haesoo 10 years, with cornering and force, for him to finally said he didn't want to continue the relationship.

It didn't take force for Haesoo to say he wanted to stop. Haesoo first tries to set a clear verbal boundary when he's taking care of Joowon after his injury. "Stop. This is uncomfortable. ...If we want to pretend we're family, we can't keep doing this. So many times, I've imagined us ending things and living like normal siblings."

That's a really clear breakup line (not that they were dating in the first place, but breakup's the best word for it). That *should have been the end of it.* Haesoo even lays out his reasoning, how much he likes the idea of being a regular family, and how he wants that back, and even how he's insecure about Joowon wanting a family in the future. Both of which are true. Not that he should have to justify it, because "Hey, I don't want to have sex anymore" is a complete thought.

Now follow up with the most recent hotel room scene, AFTER Haesoo has already openly said he wants to stop.

"There's no way I could abandon you. I just want to stop this, that's all." (Trying to be reassuring but firm.)

"Don't. Let's just stop this." (Being firmer, since Joowon's not having it.)

Then saying he has to go, which Joowon responds to by physically grabbing him and refusing to let him leave. Haesoo tries to *hit him* to get away. That's not ambiguous.

So under those circumstances, Haesoo gets angry and says he doesn't love him (a lie), which is probably the only thing Joowon would accept as a reason to break up. Because *just saying no, asking to stop, and physically pushing him away doesn't make Joowon stop.* I'm pretty sure that if Haesoo had been honest in that scene ("I love you, but this relationship is exhausting and I still want to end it"), Joowon wouldn't have accepted that as a reason to break up. So what is Haesoo *supposed* to say if he doesn't want to have sex anymore?

And again, I'm certain that everything after that initial lie is true. "I've never been afraid to break up with anyone, apart from you...I didn't want to lose you, and I was afraid I'd get hurt...It's more painful because we know we can't have it. That's why we left it ambiguous for the ten years. But now, I want to stop. I don't want to do this anymore...I just don't love you enough to deal with all this."

I think he even slips in an admission there that he does love Joowon, at the very end. "I don't love you enough" is still loving someone. But it's just not enough this time.

Also, to be clear, this isn't a Joowon hate thread. I have a lot of sympathy for Joowon. He cares deeply for Haesoo, even if he doesn't show it the right way. If I blame anyone for this clusterfuck, it's Haesoo's mother for shaming them and creating the circumstances for Joowon's well-meaning but really damaging promise that they wouldn't get serious about each other. (Which didn't work, obviously, because come on. That's not how feeling work.) Without that holding them back, the two of them might have been able to grow into their relationship and learnt to be open with each other.

Haesoo knew Joowon loved him and cared deeply about him and wanting a real relationship.
Hun, any normal person, a non selfish person, fully knowing that someone really loved us but we don't love them the same way that person loved us (or not love them enough for us to face the problems), would not "gave in" no matter how the circumstances were.
It's clear that Joowon was a spoiled and arrogant character, who try to do anything to get what he wants. Haesoo knew that very well.
And his respond was to just gave in? Not just one time but so many times?

That's why they reach this point, the point where Joowon had enough and want clear respond. And how to get that? Cornered Haesoo, force him to talk. Yes, it's unfortunate that scene happened but Haesoo brought it to himself.

From the time their parents got divorced and Haesoo didn't want his mom to hate him, Haesoo can break the relationship.
Again, it's ten years.
Yes, Joowon isn't an easy person to say "no" but even Joowon in the last couple of the chapters, Haesoo actually refuse him and not wanting to have sex with him. And Joowon was not forcing him to do it.
That's why I said bullshit if Haesoo just gave in and not wanting the relationship the last ten years (before Taku came)
Because when Haesoo actually firm about it, Joowon got the signal and not doing it.
So, it's not just Joowon forcing Haesoo in a relationship.
Haesoo also wanted the relationship but refuse to acknowledge it as a real relationship.

I was explaining about the mom's scene to remind you how serious Joowon is about Haesoo. And for someone who's serious in pursuing the person he love, to reach a point where he actually begged and forced that person to blantantly honest about the feeling is a sad situation.
You said in the post:
"I can see a lot of people are upset by what happened this chapter, and it's an ugly conversation, but that's really not on Haesoo"
Well, it's on Haesoo.
If he can be honest, or firm just like the last panel without having to be forced like that, they won't be in that situation.

Continue to your statement that it's a clear break up line when Haesoo said no.
It can't be a clear break up line when after saying those things about wanting to be a real family, this isn't right, Haesoo was still "gave in" and ended up kissing and having sex with Joowon.
That's not a break up line.
That's a tsundere type answer.
A real break up line was the last panel.
When Haesoo was leaving, firmly said no.

You may not familiar with tsundere situation, but it happens. A lot. In Japan and SK in real life. They're the type of people who need to get more pushed to hear what they actually want. And since it's a real life situation, what you said about being tsundere doesn't matter, well it is matter.
Since what they said and what they do are the opposite.
They said no but continue doing so. And vice versa.

I have no problem with Haesoo wants.
I think Haesoo and Joowon relationship is toxic and they should't continue it.
It's the right thing for Haesoo to stop it.
But I disagree with the way Haesoo deliver his "break up" and how they can be in that situation. They have been hurting each other for 10 years, they should have real conversation, a deep one, and have a clean break up.
And I also disagree with people who think the last panel was Joowon's fault.
No, it's clearly Haesoo brought it upon himself.
If he can be honest instead of avoiding the situation, there will no cornering and forcing him to talk.

> Hun, any normal person, a non selfish person [...] would not "gave in" no matter how the circumstances were.

No one "unselfish" has ever given in after being badgered for sex? Ever? No, I don't think so. A lot of exhausted, scared, or just conflict-avoidant people can think it's easier to go along with something they don't actually want to do. That doesn't mean they secretly wanted to deep down, and it doesn't make them selfish.

> From the time their parents got divorced and Haesoo didn't want his mom to hate him, Haesoo can break the relationship...That's why I said bullshit if Haesoo just gave in and not wanting the relationship the last ten years (before Taku came)

Yeah, Haesoo has feelings for Joowon and didn't fully want to break things off until he met Taku. So we...agree on that. Cool.

> Continue to your statement that it's a clear break up line when Haesoo said no.
It can't be a clear break up line when after saying those things about wanting to be a real family, this isn't right, Haesoo was still "gave in" and ended up kissing and having sex with Joowon.

...That's not what happened at all. He pulled away from a kiss, THEN said he wanted to end things, and then calmly finished his conversation with Joowon and walked out the door. Reread Chapter 48. While I'm not 100% sure on this, I actually think Joowon and Haesoo haven't had sex since Haesoo slept with Taku, unless we're counting the car blowjob.

> You may not familiar with tsundere situation, but it happens. A lot. In Japan and SK in real life.

...Alright, I know I said that fictional consent shouldn't be compared to IRL consent, because in fiction no one gets hurt, while IRL we have to be careful. But, uh. Yeah, I'm going to go into that now anyway.

NO MEANS NO, WHATEVER COUNTRY YOU'RE IN. While there may be a culture in parts of Asia that pushes reluctance to be direct, that's even *more* reason to listen when someone from that kind of culture actually says no directly. Don't EVER assume that someone saying no doesn't really mean it in real life. Don't EVER tell someone in real life it's their fault for not saying no the right way, or because they said yes to sex with the same person before.

Some people will say no at first and then change their minds, or regret saying no later on. Their "no" should still be taken just as seriously when they say it. Once again, consent is about what you choose, not what you want.

I doubt you're really in the mood for advice from me, but I'd really, strongly recommend picking up a copy of Why Does He Do That at some point to clarify what abuse is and how respect should work in a relationship. It's not a perfect book (the author wrote it a while ago and includes some ideas that wouldn't fly anymore, like saying most male victims of domestic abuse are actually the abusers), but it's a good starting point.