Pluto

Just my two cents. I think it has something to do with people throw the words kink/fetishism everywhere in a negative way. It's the Puritans that's making a big deal all of this. The only reason why Heartstopper WAS viewed as the better queer representation is because it's pure and cute and everything good in the world. It reached the audiences it's targeting aka young adult who have some weird idea like ohhh fetishism is bad BL is bad due to their weird morality towards people and their relationships. However if you're in the arguments longer you would've know a lot of older BL readers slammed back about these ideals. Heartstopper is popular bc it's mild and vanilla and boring. Some people can't accept that life ain't all that.

It's really not about races. Probably to some but the over all issue is that Heartstopper is suitable for the kids and BL wasn't in their opinion. The fans are just louder and uselessly loud.

tbh i've had this same question but idk if it's some deep-rooted racism as you say. i personally never considered bl and queer media to be separate things. it's more like bl IS queer media? just because there is sex in it doesnt make it less "queer media". like, imagine a straight romance. you dont see someone reading a straight romance book (like a fantasy romance you would see recommended on booktok) and go "oh my god! that is so indecent and it is fetishizing!" sex is normal when it is between a man and a woman, but taboo when it is between two men. But, for some reason, soft vanilla gay romance is okay? it's like the world is trying to understand queer romance but is still in denial.
i dont understand why lmao. im confused. as someone who has been reading gay romance and mature stories as well (but has never gotten aroused from it, like how someone with a fetish would) i dont get the double standards. sure, some are obviously fetishizing (like those crazy "fujoshis" who obsess over gay sex and media like "boku no pico"), but cant we sperate those from actually good gay media?

I genuinely doubt racism has anything to do with it
You're comparing one piece of media (developed, sanitised and commercialised for the biggest possible audience) against a whole genre (multiple pieces of media made for varying audiences with different tastes).
Of course you're going to get negative views on your definition of BL media.
Also...BL isn't just separated into 1) asian BL and 2) netflix shows. Non-asian BL media that are seen as gross also exist.

I do get what you are saying but Here is the think tho! there is a lot of "BL" that is vanilla AF! the most popular Bl during covid was 2gether and that was so vanilla but yet it was labeled as "BL"- with negative connotations then compared to queer?
And Heartstopper does fit the whole Vanilla Bl aesthetic, 2 boys in highschool kind of having a first love situation and their is angst around being open and their friends?
I am not sure if you do know everything with heartstopper and heavens official blessing but they were calling the author out for not really being an ally because she would not speak about Queer problems or do any big parades and show support out in the open. What they fail to see is that she is Chinese citizen and author and if she did show support like that she would be in danger since chine is very homophobic. compared to the author of Heartopper who lives in a lot more accepting place. In that regard i did realize a lot of people who slander BL are westerners or have a more western approach on things and they see "BL" as asian so that just makes me feel ify about everyhting? if you know what i mean?

Hi, i cannot talk for others nor generalize from my point of view , i mean it could be the subject of a pHd thesis in sociology, '' how is BL reveived and perceived by the media and the public in different part of the world '' but truly, isn't BL acclamed and celebrated throughout the world ?? (Secretely acclamed and celebrated, maybe?) _ i am saying that BL films and BL comics truly have a public everywhere on this planet !! I mean i am meeting BL fans from every continent on the web. To me the success of asian BL comes from the fact it is a niche topic that wasn't explored before in western=occidental comics _ (i am 40 and european and i have read european comics all my life) _ but yeah it could be that there is a confusion in the head of the people that never read BL and don't even realize South Korea and China also produce their own weight in BL. I mean yes BL is very diverse. _ But also, Lehzin Korea is producing a lot of '' mature content '' BUT ALSO all their content is classified as '' mature '' probably because of the law in South Korea ?? All the cute '' Shounen Ai '' produced by Lehzin is classified as '' mature '' lol. Along with the smut ! So yeah that's kind of confusing!

mhm my views are same, I see Bl and Queer media as one, of course BL could ratio into only Gay Queer media but I think it is a part of it. But If you do a bit of digging and specifically see the whole thing that hapened with Heartstopper and Heavens official blessing you will see that the heartstopper audience made a distinction of "queer" and "BL" media. And labeled BL as bad and Queer as good. Here is the thing Heartsopper is good because there is no smut and something that does have smut per say like call me by your name or euphoria is acceptable becuase it is western media and western media would never fetishize gay men, it's only the asians according to them? you can see my reply to wei ying for some info^^

I hope this does not feel like im attacking or trying to contradict, I am not, I do see your points I just want to go in a little more into it and ask what peeks my interest there taken from what other people have brought up. If at any point you feel like im attacking pls do tell me I t really is not my wish to do that and I will explain myself better ot give you the space you need

Hey what happened to the reply's why can't I see them?

nvm I can see it again lol

I don't know much but I was in the TGCF fandom at the time tho I didn't participate much in the discourse. It's mostly the puritans in the Heartstopper fandom saying the show is the best/right representation of queer because it's innocent, wholesome, etc. Then again knowing the author, it's the kinds of people they attracted.

I think when a fan asked them "who is the bottom/top in the relationship?" and they replied a long essay how it's fetishizing queer/gay people. I'm neutral with that but the essay gave the vibe of "this story is not like the others". With the "others" being asian bl stories. I think it also backfired with the author when those puritans turned against them when they illustrated one of the MCs search history & it was like "how do gay people have sex" and more. Personally I took offense when HS fans called MXTX an mlm fetishizer and called her out for not participating in pride parades like let's use our brain for this. She's a good writer and to say she's just a fetishizer is an insult honestly.

As a european/western reader of BL , i can only say that one year ago i didn't even know Manhuas and Manwhas existed !!! :-D
(I mean, NOT AT ALL. Not only BL stories. I had never heard about chinese and korean comics. Never.) Just because here where i live, mangas are quite exotic and still niche, there isn't necesarilly a library or a book shop where you can go and see a galore of ASIAN comics . (Japanese comics are famous, though.) The worldwide diffusion of BL (i bet) is via the web. (My hypothesis.) So it also mean that only the people reading A LOT a BL webtoons and webseries (online obviously) will know = experience the diversity of BL. If it wasn't for Mggo i wouldn't know about some.BL.categories !! If it was only for what i am able to buy and/or read for free, i would still have no panoramic view of how big the BL phenomenon is, nor how diverse it truly is. (To have an opinion on BL it's best to immerse yourself in it, right ? ;-) _ and yes i am a bit obsessed and.passionate about Asian BL now. So i cannot imagine someone would find them '' less good '' than one good western BL ?? Oh! I just thought about something : maybe there is TOO MANY Asian webseries and webtoons right now, so it makes it difficult to sort out the gems ?? Because truly it is A FLOOD :-oo it's just crazy! So many ! Probably that's a weakness, a lot of the webseries produced by Lehzin for example would be considered as trashy and would not make it to the shelves of bookstores and libraries (because they are porny and with violence and abuse) _ so yeah it probably is a bias of perception, there is more BL on the web than what would be published by the publishers who print on paper!
A LOT more.

Oh I agree! I did take offense tot he fact that MXTX was being called bad, like thier works are so amzing the story, the drama the love , it's jsut so well written the charecters in everyhtings, as someone who has read both TGCF and Mo dao zu shi , and also read Alice osmens works, I would hands down say that MXTX is the better writer compared to any of alice osemens works, and I agress her essay to the top/bottom thing even tho it might come from a good stand rubbed me the wrong way as it did seem she was trying to put down BL and make her work as exclusively better. And the reason i being up race is because majority of people classify Asian Queer stuff as BL so when you target BL there is this negativity and arguments brought up against Asians, weather it be deliberate or not jsut like how MXTX was targeted and at a disadvantage taken the fact that she was chinese and Heartstopper fandom did use that against her. I can also see it as a oh...it's white so It's like more important/edjucated? Seeing how some people on other sites responded to this very post here, the complex did show!

I'll say this as an Asian, specifically Chinese. BL is not matter what queer, no doubt Abt it. The hate bl receives can be divided into two sides. One that is based in xenophobia/sinophobia and the other anti rape culture. It's undoubtedly true that a lot of BL, specifically Asian dramas and mangas have rape tropes that are often more prominent and accepted in the world of BL than I'm queer media like Heartstopper. The hate based on fetishism is a little different. Shows themselves like Asian bl dramas aren't inherently fetishizing because of they're race, but rather sexuality. A lot of people regardless of sexuality fetishize Asians and/or queerness. The hate people have towards bls based on "fetishism" is sometimes based sometimes not. Most of the time the Asian fetish isn't really true because the creators or Asian themselves and if they were any other race it wouldn't matter, the problem would then just be the people watching making up bullshit, like white liberal bs where they say everything is problematic and talk over poc voices. The other side of the hate is based af if rape and toxic relationships are fetishized but that's not really just a problem with bl in general, u see it in hetero media too, but it's problematic how popularized toxic relationships and tropes are in bl.

BL is no matter what queer, no doubt Abt it* sry typo

Something about racism, it's very (really) strange to me that so many Manwhas/Manhuas/Mangas do not FEEL asian AT ALL !! The characters are mixed race? And they have all kind of hairstyles and haircolours and eyelids ?? And their skin is bleached or something ?? That really feels weird to me. So definirely there is no feel of '' typically asian '' except for what they eat and the little nuggets that we get about the local culture ! _ I suppose this trend started a long time ago but to me it's new and very intriguing.

Ah yes I understand! The Abusive Bl's are quite a lot and I do not stand by them one bit! but A lot of Bl's that do portray somewhat toxic relationships or even like just a lot of smut is labeled bad but if we put it oh if this was not asian , the western queer aduience would be fine with it, but if it's back to "BL" they are not fine with it, and It if was straight it would just classify as angst and It's less likely to be seen as Troubelsome!
I agree with your sentiment!
I am saying this as someone who saw wstern queer media and they shows some toxic ass abusive stuff, manipulaton and some serious ass misogyny and it's good representation? abd some BL's don't even go that far but they are labeled as baddd. So that where i feel the racisim shows up perticularly.

Ah yes, Manga character were not particularly designed around east Asians but more mixed Eurocentric features. They way that it's seen as asian now , is well the eyes are small and have aegyo sal or some stuff liek that.
And it's does not matter if the characters resemble East asian or now , the term "BL" is Asian! thats what they see , like do you get what im saying? It's just Doe snot matter what's in the BL, if it's is labeled BL it's asian!

Can I just say thank you everyone for being mature and not fighting and getting their points across! Really appreciate it!

To me it's about the visible artwork that gets published and is getting visibility on the shelves in Europe/America. _ if ONE BL.title is printed and well received and acclaimed by mainstream media, it's all good !! And it should be celebrated !!! It's a win for me !! And it doesn't matter what the nationality of the author is, a win is a win!

Don't forget that the asian BL world is only visible via smartphone apps (or websites) in Europe. We do not have printed BL in libraries, so if ONE BL is printed and sold over Europe, it will make History ! And really it's so good to see it is acclaimed and praised!!

And of course critics are critics, and sometimes critics are just babbling and simply will say anything just because they like to '' give an opinion '' even if they have no clue x-) that happens all the time. That's problematic in all art fields.

Oh! Here! >>> This is about the paper printed mangas in Europe. _ FRANCE (french speaking obviously) is THE biggest consumer of paper printed mangas in the whole world (!!!) (right after Japan) _ today i wanted to know which BL was the first to be printed in that country, and NO it wasn't a japanese manga :-o and it's VERY NEW !!! _ the first asian BL and the first asian GL to ever be printed in France were printed respectively in 2022 and 2023 !!! :-ooo _ (and they both are Manhuas so they are love stories with no smut elements.) _ The first one is Soulmate (GL, 2022) and the second one is Salad Days (published in May 2023) _ and yes i see this as a win!! _
(Would be, if my source , which is a blog on printed asian comics , is 100% correct.)