kawaiitotapo's Favorite

Hey there. I came here because the number of people who recommended this manhwa to have "consensual", "healthy", and "accurate" representation of BDSM is quite concerning. While, yes, this is just a fictional story and the portrayal of BDSM shouldn't be 100% accurate, I believe that people who are digesting such content should be educated of what a Safe, Sane, and Consensual (SSC) BDSM is like. That being said, I’m not here to solely find faults in this work and the like, but rather, I would like to provide everyone an insight of how BDSM should be by enumerating some of the red flags I have seen in this manhwa :)

Common misconception: BDSM is always about/leads to sex.
   BDSM doesn’t have to be sexual in nature. Although, some people’s kinky relationships and BDSM play are focused on sex, the types of relationships included under the BDSM umbrella are plentiful. For some, it’s a way to reach catharsis or a heightened state, and no sexual contact is involved. Some people practice kink with their romantic and sexual partners, and other people practice it with friends who they’re not attracted to.
An example of a nonsexual BDSM is: http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/the_sensual_m/

Ch2 pg3: The translator’s note that says sub=bottom, dom=top
   The submissive role is not limited to the one being penetrated. Likewise, the dominant role is not limited to the one penetrating. A bottom can be dominant, and a top can be submissive. See this list: http://www.mangago.zone/home/mangalist/603799/

Ch3: The dom and the ‘assumed’ sub
   BDSM is NOT SPONTANEOUS and it usually DOESN'T OCCUR BETWEEN STRANGERS. In real life BDSM, everything is negotiated first. In a good kink relationship, the parties go in knowing their limits (or with a plan for figuring them out), and trusting that those limits will be respected. Many kink venues have a safeword, and they always know that if they call that word, the play will immediately stop. Even when people participate in pick-up play (similar to what the uke was doing, which is engaging in kinky pastimes with folks they’ve just met) there is a conversation first.

Ch3,4: The dom established the rules ON HIS OWN while the play was about to start.
   Like what I mentioned above, at a SEPARATE TIME, the people who will be taking part in the BDSM play should go EVERY detail to openly discuss things (like what plays are ok, not ok, soft limits, hard limits, etc) IN ADVANCE. The dom/sub just doesn't come up with rules RIGHT ON THE SPOT. You just don't go slap the person and say "oops I forgot to tell you. I can hurt you all I want for sexual pleasure, just say the safeword if you don't like it". Nope. The ‘assumed’ sub didn't even have a say on that. The people involved should also keep in mind that the things discussed can change at any time. If not all, then most of the things that were discussed will be included in a BDSM contract.

These are just some I have found. If I were to enumerate ALL then that would be too long HAHA And as I’ve read along, the plot and the plays do improve. So, I totally understand where y’all are coming from. As I said above, I just want you all to be provided with an insight of what an SSC BDSM should be :)

Hmm if I were to recommend a closely SSC one, then I highly recommend this http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/aporia/
And If you are interested in learning more or have some curious questions about BDSM, ask Squibbles! She’s a bisexual dom with 10+ years experience ;>
http://www.mangago.zone/home/mangatopic/5929808/
http://www.mangago.zone/home/people/181308/home/

So at the end of the day, I’d say all 3 characters got what they deserved. And they all made important realizations by the end:

Haesoo's biggest obstacle was lacking personal agency. He was always caught up in what his mother wanted, what joowon's father wanted, what would be best for joowon's acting career, what was best for society... He never prioritized his OWN wishes and was miserable thinking his love for joowon was wrong. He also thought he was the only one suffering and Joowon had it easy, so he wanted Joowon to suffer too. Joowon told him "dont fall for me & i wont fall for you", so he manipulated Joowon's emotions (making him jealous/angry for his sake) because he didn't know how else to feel “loved”. Him going and telling Joowon how he feels at the hospital was the first time he truly followed his heart, and he was honest to JW without any facade or manipulation. He also apologized in his monologue realizing that he was wrong for being vindictive and wishing Joowon would suffer. He knew he didn't genuinely mean those things, because when Joowon ACTUALLY got hurt, it broke him. Also I have to add about Haesoo & Taku's relationship: Haesoo never cared much for his past flings, but he genuinely felt sorry to Taku. He actually tried his best in their r/s and felt apologetic when he couldnt return Taku's feelings, also signifying haesoo's change in that case.

Meanwhile Joowon: He actually had good intentions as a teenager, thinking that keeping their relationship undefined would "protect" what they had. This carried onto adulthood due to their taboo forever haunting him/them (as he said: he was stuck in the past). He also feared abandonment as he believed haesoo already abandoned him once after the divorce, pushing his idea that their undefined relationship was the best route and Haesoo would leave "if things got too serious". Through their separation, he realized his mistakes regardless of his intentions, and how he really hurt haesoo when he said "dont fall for me". He also knew he had become arrogant in thinking Haesoo would never leave him, just cause Haesoo kept with him for almost 10 years. So Joowon strived to take responsibility for his mistakes. And he faced his own fears realizing: he'd rather get hurt and abandoned by Haesoo than not tell Haesoo he loved him. Because love should be selfless like that. Imo Joowon had the most time of self-reflection and development in this manhwa, going from impulsive and arrogant to mature and braver with his feelings.
Also, both Haesoo and Joowon were consistently driven apart by external pressures that affected their actions (their initial taboo, their parents, joowon's career). So I don't blame the problems in their relationship solely on themselves. But at the end of the day, both of them learned that to make their relationship work: they had to set aside their personal fears/obstacles, and actually prioritize each other.

Finally Taku: he had a history of exes that he toyed around with and manipulated for his photography career and self-interest. He started seeing Haesoo with the same intentions ("i just wanted to see the story he would write when I was gone" / Leo telling Joowon how Taku uses and drops his models). He never planned to catch feelings, so him going from an emotionless robot, to getting hurt like this was the best lesson for him. He now knows you can't manipulate people's emotions and MAKE THEM love you (For instance, taku's quote: "I wanted to burrow inside that void he [jw] left in you. And then I would kick him out in any way I could" ---> he thought he could make haesoo love him, but now realized he cant). He *hopefully* learned that entering relationships with selfish/manipulative intentions, and with someone who loves someone else, is WRONG. Imo Taku had the least on screen development as he's still quite selfish in the recent chapters. His reactions feel realistic, but that doesn’t mean he's a “good” person, and he ADMITS HIMSELF that he’s not a good person in chapter 99. However he is shown to be happy with someone else in the future, so maybe him having good intentions and being less selfish is more so implied. Maybe we’ll see more of his thoughts in the last few chapters, and how he handled his new relationship differently than his relationship with Haesoo...

Anyway I think the endings for all 3 characters made sense, and I hope yall support the authors on the official site if you like their story!

Taku stans really like seeing their fav manipulative character through rose coloured glasses. But I mean... I don't fully blame them. It's because of how romanticized and COMMON fictional stories are, where the mc is in a "toxic" relationship, and this prince charming-like character comes and rescues them from it. What Taku stans fail to realize though, is that Love or Hate is the exact OPPOSITE of their victim/saviour story. So they should stop selectively-reading it to all hell.

Love or Hate shows that Taku's manipulative actions and selfish motivations are the furthest from being "prince charming"-like to Haesoo. What Haesoo really needed, was to accept his feelings and take control of his own life... rather than run away when things get hard with Joowon. His issues were greatly due to *himself* and his own pessimistic views, lack of self-esteem & personal resolve. The only way for him to heal was to confess to Joowon how he truly felt, and stop thinking stuff like, "ah i should do this for my mom" / "i should do this to make joowon's dad satisfied" / "i should do this so that joowon can have a regular actor's life and get married one day" / "this is what's best in society". This man had NO agency of himself. So you see how contrary it is to his character arc, to be in a relationship with Taku who literally viewed him as an object for his project (candy)? Like to be with someone who wanted to guilt-trip him in their relationship by using his sex tape?? Lol. Unfortunately for Taku he eventually catches feelings... yet to Haesoo: Taku is more so someone who helped him run from his problems and suggested they "use each other". The whole point of Haesoo's development was literally to face his problems (not run) and find his own agency/voice (not be used lol). Leaving Taku's exhibition and finally choosing things for himself, and prioritizing his OWN FEELINGS is the biggest step Haesoo could take,,, instead of just running away while silently self-victimizing as he's done in the past. Taku very IRONICALLY helped Haesoo realize all that through his exhibition, even though he never tried to, nor intended to (I mean this man would rather have haesoo unhappily be with him, than happily be without him).

Btw, if I didn't make it clear enough: Haesoo victimized himself A LOT. He always thought stuff like "Joowon is not suffering at all (not true at all btw lol, haesoo was also an unreliable narrator). Why am i the only one suffering? Why is it so easy for him, but I have it so hard?". He did not need to be "rescued" by anyone but himself and his own realizations... realizations like how BOTH him and joowon had it rough, and were pushed apart by their complicated situation and their own miscommunications + personal fears of rejection/abandonment.
(ps: Haesoo is my fav character in LOH cause he's wonderfully written, and I just love analyzing his motivations and thought process as a whole)

I honestly can appreciate Taku as a fictional character because I do find him interesting and layered. But I am TIRED of ppl claiming he was incredibly sincere and cared about Haesoo so much. Idk if some of y’all skipped these parts, or chose to ignore it... but pls do see the following examples of Taku's manipulative and selfish behavior, and taking advantage of Haesoo:

Exhibit 1 - He wanted to use his sex tape to guilt trip Haesoo in their relationship. He said: “I hoped that guilt would bring you to me”. It only didn't happen cause Haesoo turned down publishing the sex tape. It was not that Taku backed away and stopped himself because he realized how fcked up his actions were. It made Haesoo uncomfortable and weirded out too,, pretty sure this can count as sexual/workplace harassment lmao

Exhibit 2 - In chapter 96’s flashback Taku says "i just want to read the story he writes about me when i'm gone” (his friend calls him an asshole too lol). This is a throwback to Leo telling Joowon over the phone about how Taku uses his models for his work, and then tosses them aside with little regard. He was planning the same with Haesoo, until he later got “attached”. that’s karma ig~

Exhibit 3 - Haesoo expressed that he was unsure/not ready for a relationship. Yet literally RIGHT AFTER his quasi breakup with Joowon, Taku is pressuring him like, "I'm still waiting for an answer". It's weird cause Haesoo's wounds are fresh from his breakup, and Taku is NOT stupid. He knew this and persisted. Haesoo shouldn't have agreed and that's his own fault (HS is not entirely a victim here lets make that clear). Meanwhile Taku? He was flat out taking advantage of Haesoo's broken emotions.

Exhibit 4 - Quote: “It must have been painful for him no doubt, but I still wanted to see more". This was Taku's thought during a photoshoot with Haesoo, which later made Haesoo cry at the exhibition (Chapter 92/93). Taku told Haesoo: "think about having sex with someone you love, but you can never see them again". This was RIGHT AFTER Joowon and Haesoo's big separation. To inflict emotional pain in your partner, and then say you were interested in seeing more? Bruh no… just no.

Exhibit 5 - Quotes: “Every time I saw how sad you were, it felt good.” “You were lonely. You need me because of your unhappiness.” —Chapter 58. This is from Taku's monologue of how Haesoo’s unhappiness made him feel good, because he felt depended on by Haesoo for comfort // hs get away from this man pls haha

Exhibit 6 - Another quote: “If I can’t beat him [jw] one-on-one, then I at least want you [hs] to feel bad” —Chapter 66 ...Can Taku stop wishing for Haesoo depression, like he's already sad jfc

Exhibit 7 - "I want to bury inside the void he [jw] left in you. And later I'll push him aside however I can." ...honestly this quote struck me as Taku taking advantage of Haesoo's heartbreak and being hella 'opportunistic' (btw: Taku called HIMSELF that in his interview in chapter 5 so I mean... lol). Maybe that's just me though idk.

Exhibit 8 - In Chapter 84 when Joowon's scandal broke out, notice how Taku starts texting "are you okay?" to Haesoo, then deletes it and instead tells him to stop caring about Joowon? This moment said a lot to me, because it's the fact that Taku is SO AWARE of how Haesoo must be feeling, but he purposely chooses to ignore that and cares more about winning and keeping him away from Joowon. Kinda struck me as the opposite from Joowon's phone call after Haesoo's modelling news dropped in chapter 68. JW asked Haesoo to not do the exhibition because he knew its not what HS wanted (he is right: haesoo always wanted to be known for his writing not his face, and felt crappy abt it all day). But when Haesoo said he was fine, JW told him he'll always be on Haesoo's side even as a hyung/friend. He made it so clear how he cares the most about HS simply being okay, even after Haesoo left him.

Exhibit 9 - Taku tells Haesoo he hopes he has a hard time with Joowon after their breakup (Chapter 99). It felt wrong to me cause Haesoo genuinely apologized and gently let him down in their breakup... but Taku tries to make Haesoo feel worse. I honestly understand being spiteful towards exes who mistreated you in some way. HOWEVER with this relationship: it seemed to highlight Taku’s selfishness. Taku is out here acting like Haesoo wronged him for simply not liking him back in a 1 month TRIAL relationship. As if he wasnt the one who initiated and *insisted* on their relationship. As if he was unaware of Haesoo’s feelings for Joowon. As if Taku didnt say it was better that they use each other. Him wanting to make Haesoo feel bad over this is wild considering all the conditions of their relationship and his past manipulation too.
((Also, Taku in this scene to Haesoo: “Sorry I told you I'm not a good person” … Like sir, if you know you’re not a good person, THEN FIX IT. Joowon spent almost 40 chapters self-reflecting n trying to correct the mistakes he made, when he never *intentionally* wanted to hurt Haesoo lol. Meanwhile some Taku fans: “omg he’s a good person that was wronged. haesoo never deserved him!” lmaooo))

///end of examples

Anyway I’m gonna have to start sending this to some of y’all who selectively read Taku’s character to all hell. He was really manipulative with Haesoo and had some bad intentions. And when Taku grew to stop being a robot and showed “real feelings” getting all attached to Haesoo and liking him more than he expected, he was STILL selfish and wanted Haesoo to suffer for him. He didn’t get enough development to stray away from that, but imo that’s exactly why he’s the second lead
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