boop's Topics (21)

I havent read this, but because of your comment, I'm going to keep it that way

Same ╥﹏╥

Haha

It really is just bad writing. I don’t understand. If they want to draw porn just do it why go through all these extra steps and half ass it too.

Saying "don't like it, don't read" ignores the fact that unhealthy views towards consent and rape that these stories sexualize have actual consequences. A lot of impressionable people read this kind of stuff and take in those unhealthy messages and can develop unhealthy beliefs about their own body and what does and does not count as consent. If anyone says that you aren't allowed to criticize a piece of work for some dumb reason, then just know that the person doing it only really cares about their fap material and doesn't actually give a shit about any point that you make.

Thank you! These are solid facts!!!

Honestly, so tired of them using rape of all things to make the characters instantly get together.

Mad respect, you got on Point

Mad respect, you got it on Point

I understand u and I love to see them falling in love before that but Unfortunately this kind of situation is catchy and hot for other readers,so some author tries to pls their readers. I'm not sure about the author of this but a lot of manga/manhwa plots started with physical now before they realize that they falling in love..just saying hehehe

Well said!

I'd actually argue differently rape fantasies are a really common thing something about the appeal of domination or something I forget the specifics of why and considering the bl stories that have a rape scene tend to be the ones with porn well its safe to assume that most likely the author is playing out a fantasy with their own characters sort of like role play but not directly including you

True, it could have done without the rape BUT the author purposely put it there. They consciously put it there and as it’s their story they have every right to do as they please. It’s up to the readers to pick what they’re comfortable reading based on what’s available to them. Rape fetish is an actual thing, and many enjoy it. To you this manga is a NO but to others it’s a YES. The rape fetish genre is not going to go extinct anytime soon, they’ll always be authors who like rape fetish themes. The best you do is drop a Manga if you find it’s exploring themes you don’t like. :)

THE PERIODISM OF THIS COMMENT

The reason why many people are put off by 'rape fetish' is mainly on how it's portrayed. It's fine if the story is just focused on smut like pwp's, but in many cases, it might cause the readers to feel... very negative for obvious reasons (as one would normally react to it), especially if said rape is painted in a good light/romanticized in the long run.

It's poorly done, has no real consequences in the overall plot (if there is a semblance of it, it's largely overlooked too quickly), and as OP stated, it's [usually] just a plot device to quickly smush the two main leads together. It's cheap, unnecessary, and barely [poorly] portrayed as fetish, if it ever was.

To add on that, it makes it worse when the author purposely adds in the rape scene but does nothing to follow up on it except for forced 'chemistry' and sex galore. It just backfires even more if they're trying to have the story be taken seriously.

If the author is really trying to have the 'rape fetish' be explored as the theme in a relatively non-pwp story, then they should also take it seriously, touch up on it like it's an actual thing that exists with actual bearing on the story.

Generally speaking, I think your point of how the author has free rein on their work, while true, might come off as a poor defense against a fairly good criticism like what OP has.

But that’s the the whole point, to fetishize it is to romantise it. I don’t want to see rape with consequences it ruins my fantasies - yes I do have a rape fetish and I have role-played it with my partners. I want the domineering, the helplessness, the smut, the forcefulness and over powering that comes with a rape fetish. Taking a realistic approach to the fetish kinda kills the mood and will make the rape less of a fetish as it boarders on realism - outside my rape fetish, real life rape disgusts me. I react differently from rape fetish to actually rape stories! When I role-play rape with my partners it ends at the climax, I don’t further start acting as if I’m traumatized and crying after the deed is done - that’s not how the fetish works so why would the author be expected to follow up with the aftermath when that’s not how role-play works in real life. It’s written that to intise our lust what’s lustful about a traumatized rape victim? Unless they’re writing about rape without the fetish then they can write about the victim’s experience and trauma then even the readers reaction will be different.

You should know that reading is a form of escapism, second hand experiencing situations and lives that we ourselves can never experience. Most of this escapism, fetish, thrill or interest, is usually explored through very serious toned themes - like violence and crime. This appeals to most whilst it doesn’t to others. If you fall in the later then you shouldn’t start lecturing or condemning authors for FREELY writing on genres and themes they like. It’s just not to your taste, it has nothing to do with the author.

Also, plot devises should not be exclusive to anything. The author should be FREE to use any means they want to progress their stories and connect their characters. Where do you draw the line? What if someone came and said “Urgh, the couple could have been hetro and the story would still be the same” OR another came and said “Urgh, the story could have been set in an office and it would still be the same”. No, it’s not the same! Cause that’s not what the author wanted!

All stories have cliche tropes - “art students setup”, “university students romance”, “ getting drunk and having sex setup” , “I fell in love with my rapist setup” , “the guy your friend recommended you to meet for something you wanted ends up being your lover setup” , “ potential love rival has a girl who obsessively likes him and hates you setup” - how many things will you need to change before you root out all the common tropes. Life is a cliche. There is literally nothing new under the sun! Why nitpick on the author for exploring a trope that has been visited a million times by other authors?

But the thing is, the rape within the story, within the characters, does not apply to this rape fetish you keep talking about (generally speaking). I made a mistake on not differentiating my use of 'rape' and 'rape fetish' in my previous comment.
It isn't made AS a fetish or roleplay by two consenting parties-- it's simply rape. If you put how many stories with the element of rape, were they roleplaying? No. Were the characters involved fully aware and fully consenting of the sex? NO. Was the rape aimed towards the audience to enjoy instead? Maybe. Does the story follow up that said rape is made as fetish for the audience? If not then what's the point?
As an author, if you knowingly put rape in your story, AND your story isn't just clear cut smut but with actual decent plot, then yes, it should follow that the element of rape should have consequences. Rape fantasies are simply different from the rape portrayed in many BL.

I kept mentioning it in my previous comment (and in my earlier statement) but I'll say it again: if your story isn't 'porn without plot', then have each major plot points an effect to the characters and the story. Otherwise, it becomes cheap and unnecessary. Why was the rape even included if it didn't further a development on what actual rape would have done to a person? There's plenty of other ways to have a better plot device to add the chemistry for the characters. Using rape for the sake of smut (and again, IN a non-pwp setting) just serves as a shock value or edgy drama that doesn't hold up. It's bad writing in its finest, imo.

Also, what I stated were simple *criticisms* towards story(ies). I'm more concerned on the writing, the cohesiveness of the plot-- because good writing is what most people would enjoy. So your line, and I quote:
"If you fall in the later then you shouldn’t start lecturing or condemning authors for FREELY writing on genres and themes they like. It’s just not to your taste, it has nothing to do with the author."
It just doesn't make sense (and I'm saying that lightly) since writing a story (again, in a non-pwp setting) has its own rules, so to speak. And as a writer/author, you should know about those.

Oh, and this line:
"Also, plot devises should not be exclusive to anything. The author should be FREE to use any means they want to progress their stories and connect their characters."
I agree with that, to an extent. They ARE free to use any means. BUT like I said, it should have consequences. IF you are including rape, then don't half-ass it. IF you are portraying rape fetish, then have that clear to the audience, to the plot, and to the characters in the story. So to answer your question on where you draw the line, it's simply when it has a *cohesive* point in the story. It doesn't make you eye roll that it happens, and it doesn't make the reader say, "What was the actual point of that!?" to name a few.

And finally, about cliches. Authors are free to exploit cliches to their *advantage*. They can use specific cliches to progress the story. That's fine. It's just up to the author on how they use the cliches to make the story *better*, and that's a key word, mind you. If you want to explore the trope, feel free, but have some purpose on why you're exploring said trope in the first place, and not just add in pointless cliches all willy-nilly.

Hmmmm - I don’t know. Rape fetish stories have been written like so for decades why reinvent the wheel and for what purpose? Suddenly having authors adapt formats where they have their characters verbally announce they are about to partake in rape is unusual. You need to understand that with rape stories, tailored to those with a fetish, tend to follow a narrative that doesn’t break the forth wall. If the story is about a person who gets dragged in an alley and rapped you wouldn’t expect them to announce what they are about to do before they start? The role-play is for the reader, based on what they’re reading, watching or imagining.
Rape fetish stories don’t have to exclusively be about role play they can, as this story, just be just rape. However, the tell signs are in how the characters react before, during and after the “rape”. A good example is this story - it shows them both enjoying it, it shows the power play of the rape, there wasn’t any consequences and it was sexually arousing to the reader. Everything about the rape portrayed in this manga doesn’t even look like or depict real rape, already that tells you it’s target audience and purpose.

Also, fetishes should not be exclusive to porn. Any author should have the FREEDOM to mash up genres and industries to create a hybrid story of their liking! When has writing every followed rules? The minute you start putting rules on art is the minute it stops being art! One of my favorite directors, quentin tarantino, has a foot fetish! In all his movies - be it horror, drama, thriller, action - he ALWAYS visually throws in his foot fetish. And who’s ever scolded him for depicting his likes in his movies? If I decided to become an author why would I not be allowed to throw in my rape fetish in my story? Why can’t this author show a steamy rape scene on their manga if that’s what they’re into?

Also, a good story is subjective. I’m an avid reader! I spent my entire life in libraries and studied literature in University along side Art and Design! I read ALL genres and forms of stories across all the he ages! You mentioned the writing in the story, and I found nothing wrong with it. Cohesive? How is it not so? It was easy to follow the beats of the story. There was a bit of mystery with the characters but it wasn’t to the point of confusing. In fact it had me want to read more in order to better know them. The transitioning was ok too, at no point did I feel disoriented with the story setting - same applies with the flash backs - wether it was past or present I was always aware of when the story was taking place. The dialogue was ok too, grammatically it was fine. I’m not sure what sort of writing you wanted. What fault can you give it?

In terms of plot, it’s well scripted for what it was going for. The rape as well was not unexpected or out of place! We just met the Seme. We have no evidence that he is nice guy nor do we know his personality or moral characteristics as well. A rapist can be anyone. Unless if it was Buda doing the raping then we’d question the believability of the story. Rapist don’t move around with RAPIST tattooed on their forehead! It can be anyone. Will the the Uke fall for the Seme even after the rape? Yes, cause that’s how a fetish works. Back to my previous example in the first paragraph, the guy in the alley falls in love with rapist in the alley and they go on to have outdoor sex every day happily ever after. Does it make sense? No, fetishes don’t have to make sense!

I think the issue here is ¥401 is trying to apply agency to fictional characters which isnt possible fictional characters can't feel pain in a traditional sense nor can they consent an author can write a painful scene or a consent scene but that doesn't give the characters agency whatsoever not to mention the moment an author adds a sex scene with the express purpose of being titillating the story becomes less about plot and more about porn moving the story in to fantasy territory and thus applying the same critisms towards a work of sexual fantasy vs a work of escapism fantasy is kind of like applying the same criticisms that you would apply a realistic fiction story to a science fiction story they have different purposes and thus will be good or bad at different things .... the point I'm trying to make is its strange to apply serious criticism to something that is meant to amount as nothing more than a steamy romance story

Lmao, obviously hints should be subtle. But yea, I do agree that tell signs should be, as you said, before, during, and after. What can be observed in many stories with rape, however, tend to fall short of that. At times, they give off warning bells to the characters (and readers), and at times, they would acknowledge during the sex scene that it is indeed rape (regardless of the characters feeling pleasure, pain or both), but it's usually what comes after that it feels so half-assed. The characters and the story just grossly overlook the rape like nothing ever happened, or like it was just your run of the mill sex. Ofc there would have been no problems if the author isn't pushing for a serious story, and just for a steamy romance story that barely holds on to its plot. But more often than not, they are wanting for the story to be taken seriously, all the while half-assing it. And by then, there's the disconnect between what the author wants to convey and how the audience reacts. So yea, I partly agree with what you said on how the rape is portrayed in the story: if it's remotely unrealistic in any shape or form, then it just becomes one of those stories that just aim to cater to sex scenes, aka pwp.

Oh, sorry, I guess 'rules' would be inaccurate. Fundamentals would be more apt to what I'm referring to (though in a sense the basics are rules and guidelines). But yes, to answer, writing has its rules or fundamentals that it follows. There's always beginning, middle, end; there's also conflict, resolution, etc.— that's what I'm calling out on. To add in on my previous paragraph, these stories with the rape element (which should've been regarded as conflict or point of interest in the story) tend to have incomplete resolutions. And obviously, I'm not saying that "RAPE FETISH IS BANNED" but merely that if you're going to include it in your story (*IN* a non-pwp setting), then follow through it and have it be explored in your story like it's supposed to.

If you noticed in my previous replies, I wasn't really even referring to this specific webtoon. I was talking about the rape scenes in BL, *in general*. So far this story holds up in the 'before' and 'during' tells of the rape scene, and since it seems that this story isn't pwp, I hope that it doesn't overlook the 'after' section.

Lastly, fetishes themselves don't have to make sense, that's true. But stories should be tailored in a way that it doesn't fall short of logical sense. Or well, serious stories anyways. It should be written on how the fetishes logically fit to the story. Does one party rape the other? Fine. Do they fall in love with their rapist? Sure, go off, but just make sure that it actually makes sense on what happens in between that development.

A decent example (though it still does have it's own share of problems) of that would be Hidoku Shinaide. To makes things short, the seme rapes the uke, and the uke does indeed fall in love with the seme along the course of the story. While it did kinda downplay the rape in the beginning (imo), it did follow back on it in the later chapters. The seme talks about how he regrets that their first time was rape, and the story flows with that conflict. So in the end, you get the [decent] story you're pushing for, and to top it all off, the romance is smutty and steamy, all the while [kinda] not half-assing the inclusion of rape.

On the other hand, a masterpiece that portrays rape to near perfection would be Zankoku Na Kami Ga Shihai Suru. The rape was masterfully done in a way that it had real effects on the characters (and readers). That was one hell of a ride, in a good way.

Hmm, well as I kept mentioning, I would have no problems if the story isn't mean to be taken at face value. If it's porn without plot, then feel free to add a whole bunch of fetishes just for the sake of smut. If it's just a steamy romance story with the express purpose of turning on the audience, then it's just borderline pwp. But yea, to use your words, I'm basically applying agency to the fictional characters, BUT in context: for non-pwp setting.

This was very understandable thx (≧∀≦)

Omg thank u!! Lol I was Soooo ever confused of art is happening haha thank u. Now I get it

I needed this!!! Thanks a lotttt