Gravenshi's Topics (2107)

The moment she blushed I was like and another one bit the dust

She is a walking dead flag distributor.

He is a bastard because he knows the rumors, agrees with them and lets them happen. He claims he’s doing it to benefit his family, but what kind of benefit is there if his future wife is disrespected & always publicly humiliated. Everyone knows it except her at the time. And he agrees with them. And then he and everyone knows he has another woman he likes. They’re all purposely manipulating her, gaslighting her.

If he was truly a gentleman and he says he’s only doing it to help his family & his reputation, then you’d think he’d care about the reputation of his fiance because at the end of the day, it hurts him and his family. He would defend her honor but he doesn’t. That’s why we don’t like him and that’s why he’s a bastard

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I have a more heuristic view on the matter.

I feel like no matter what he does, he would always get scorned. And who knows, maybe the princess was confident in her appearance and it would have been rude/incongruous to comment on it. Maybe it was made taboo to address the Princess' apparence given how all the maids and nobles never missed an occasion to flatter her.

The parents are aware that their daughter face challenges in the beauty department. They know the rumors and let it happen, because, thankfully "she is a princess at last".

Historical and Political Context is very important. Out of context, it changes everything. In context, he is a gentleman and a man of duty.

Why a man of duty? Marriages out of love, unlike political marriages, are not very common among nobles. In short, this is another arranged marriage for the sake of politics among the upper class. The Palace offers their daughter for marriage and whichever noble, who ain't too difficult, accepts the offer, since at the end of the day, she is a Princess. Noble duties come before love and that's very common.

Why a gentleman? He is gentle and he is man. He is courteous toward the lady, despite not liking her. He does not partake in badmouthing the lady, but he is not in denial either. He does not mistreat her. He diligently attends to her and returns her letters. This is textbook gentleman's manners at this time. Certes, his heart is not aligned with his actions, but his actions do not betray decorum.

Defending her honor should have been the Palace's duty at first. After all, he does not love her and he is just going along with was decided by his family. Given what was portrayed, he never uttered nor repeated, with his own mouth, those bad words. At best, he did not further entertain Julia's grievances and cut the conversation short.

It's another arranged marriage. It could have been uglier, he could have cheated on her, talked shit on her back, fat-shaming her, bullying her... Yet, he went for the passive approach, which was bittersweet rather than bitter.

I am sorry that Grace is not loved, but she is victim of something greater than cannot simply be pinned on Isaac. As such, calling him a b@stard is harsh. I can understand his passiveness being hated on. Still, I reserve this insult for vile scoundrels.

He is an hypocrite, at best. But so is mostly everyone in noble society.

We can agree to disagree. He’s still a bastard because since she was engaged, she’s not the palace’s responsibility anymore as they publicly announced it, she’s not in line for the throne and if she’s old enough to get married, she’s old enough to handle herself. That is also historical. She cannot even be seen in the presence of another man who’s not her family, but he can go meet secretly with another woman?

If we are going to get historical, she’s a woman, they are seen as less than. It’s made clear in this story, even her mom doesn’t care about her because she’s a daughter.

He’s a man, he has the power to change people’s thoughts about her since he’s the one engaged to her anyway and he should, but he doesn’t.

Him agreeing with other people saying he’s fat and ugly is the same as him talking about it behind her back. he’s even so bold to secretly meet and talk about her and even get caught by her…what part of this is gentlemanly? What part of this is good?

If someone is blatantly nasty to you, it’s easier to deal with because they’re open about it. He’s being sly and manipulative, this is dangerous and look where it got to? She’s risking her health and now stuck with an eating disorder, not for love not for anything but Both of their honor.

She’s now looking beautiful so she can defend herself and him since, he’s her fiance.

What has he truly done for her? Anyone can say nice things to her face…his action was literally to go meet up in secret with his dream girl and talk shit behind her back. I don’t get why you don’t see that. If he truly had good intentions, he would have never met that other princess. He would have sent the other princess a letter, just like how he has been sending Grace, his actual fiance, letters.

It’s not like she wasn’t beautiful, she was just a bit chubby. They even admit it in the book.

Of course this marriage isn’t about love, what I said is that he is clearly doing this marriage for benefits he cannot even reap if he wanted to because he has helped disgrace her, he helped dishonor her

Everyone is talking behind her back, everyone knows except her, including him. He is still a bastard.

But again, we can agree to disagree

I already said what needed to be said.

So have I. Goodbye, good talk.

"she’s not the palace’s responsibility anymore"
I will not go over details about aristocracy and will just say a basic fact: She still lives in the Palace. And an engagement could be nullified by the Royal Family, meaning it is still the Place's responsibility as she is their Princess, as representative, to some extent, of the Royal Family given her lineage. If she commits a crime tomorrow, the Royal Family will be the one dealing with the consequences, not Isaac's family. She is not "married", she is betrothed.

"he has the power to change people’s thoughts about her"
You keep dismissing the fact that he does not care enough to do so. He does not like her features, so it has no interest to go to that lengths. And he agrees with conventional beauty, he has no reason to go against it. Anyway, nobody has the gal to insult her in broad daylight and to her face.

"Him agreeing with other people saying he’s fat and ugly"
Other people. He is not denying the facts. He just said "I know" or nothing. He did not badmouth her; he did not utter anything as such. He barely talked, but you are accusing him of A LOT of things based on YOUR interpretation.

"he’s even so bold to secretly meet and talk about her"
It was not like he intended to meet Julia to badmouth the Princess. He went there to clarify his engagement, Julia is the one who started the badmouthing the Princess. Still, he cut it very short, never not commented on Grace's apparence in response, only made his stance clear as a dutiful noble. He is not venomous enough to indulge on médisance.

"what part of this is gentlemanly?"
Do not twist his actions and you will see.

"He’s being sly and manipulative"
He decided to endure it. You are forcing your views on him despite the story clearly presenting a soft-spoken individual so far.

"She’s risking her health and now stuck with an eating disorder,"
And how is that his fault? Is that a crime to like slim bodies? He likes them slimmer! He did not ask Grace to go lose weight. She did it on her own violation. And clearly, he never asked her to change her appearance to suit his taste in women. You are blaming him for things that he has little control on: his feelings, beauty standards, people's mouth, eavesdropping, facts, her neglectful upbringing, etc. And she was already dealing with eating disorder: childhood obesity. Clearly, she has an unhealthy relationship with food since her youth.

"What has he truly done for her?"
The norm. Decorum. Etiquette. The bare minimum. To be a bastard, you kinda need to do very bad things... yet that dude is leaning too much of the neutral side of history. He is just not sincere.

" I don’t get why you don’t see that"
I am not desperate to frame someone I know little about as the evil. And really, I found blame-game simply useless and unproductive. He did not decide to go on a badmouthing journey, he went to clear things up with Julia. Girl thought she was going to marry him and out of the blue, he is betrothed to someone else. It seems very fair to give her a closure.

"she was just a bit chubby."
You are free to call that "a bit chubby". Isaac is not into overweight women. Let this man have HIS OWN TASTE IN WOMEN! It feels like you are branding as a criminal for liking them slim.

"he has helped disgrace her, he helped dishonor her"
He did nothing as such. He simply went along with marriage offer the Royal Family was so desperate to seal, and was satisfied finding a family willing to marry their daughter in her unconventional charm. It would have been a greater dishonor if nobody wanted to marry her and if he went on smear campaign against the Princess. He simply went along with society. Nobles are not saints.


"Everyone is talking behind her back, everyone knows except her, including him."
First, it is incongruous to address your lady's physics. Second, he cannot say if she is aware of the rumors and decided to ignore. You, yourself, know because you are the reader. Regardless, this changes nothing. He was set on marrying the Princess, being she is was the ugliest or not. It just happens that she was not prettiest and simply went along with the crowd.

Really, hating on Isaac seems very pointless given the context and what was actually shown in recent chapters. So far, I have little "evidence" to blindly up on the hate-wagon.

Sike.

it's a fact tho, everyone knows she's fat how can he stop people from talking abt it ? tell her to lose weight? to a girl in her most sensitive years? and to a ROYAL? ooof... there would be smth like OFF W UR HEAD~ and anyways if they married the rumours abt the princess wouldn't exactly hurt him, people would just pity him for marrying someone so 'unsighty'

Nahh, the issue is that there's a difference between saying someone is fat as a fact, and saying it as an insult

You know from your wordings, people can understand whether you call them 'fat' as an insult or if you're just trying to say a fact. Usually you can see it as an insult if it said in a situation where you calling them fat is not helping in any way, totally uncalled for. And when they felt insulted, it does makes you a jerk, at least ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

Well the guy isn't really a bastard in this sense and context, but personally, I still would want to cancel the engagement if I were her, after all, not correcting or reprimanding Julia when she insulted her as fat is enough to be a sign of an untrustworthy person to keep close (⌒▽⌒). If you're trying to respect someone, you will try to defend them. It was never about love, but the amount of respect he's giving her.

Well, in other context, the princess WAS SPOILED tho, so maybe in the end, his feelings came from that fact, rather because of her appearence.

true i wouldn't wanna marry a man with a girl hanging by his side, but she had to change anyways even though the method and motive was wrong who knows she might have already dropped the engagement, it's in a past setting afterall she's a cute girl i wish she could get the help she needs

I fail to find issue or concern on this difference of yours. Whether it was an insult or not, it is still a fact. Julia pinpointed that the Princess was fat to juxtapose Isaac's preferences for instance. Anyway, fat is a pejorative adjective.

Even if he addressed her weight, I bet some people would complain about "how dare he judges her appearance and expects her to fit standard beauty", making him a "jerk" as you said. Per the other user, he is already a b* for not starting some body-positivity movement.

Engagement Annulement for like "if you don't like me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best" does not sound bad. I would find it quite ironic because he was her sole "suitor" at her worst. Her mother was relieved even finding one.

The sausage comments and Isaac's dislikes are hearsay. I totally understand disliking Julia for her harsh words, but one cannot deny that her words reflect the harsh reality and the darker side of noble society. Naturally, his "aloofness" or "passiveness" on the matter can irk people although his demeanor is not out of character: he is a fatalist.

I find slight comfort in knowing he is not abusing the Princess. I read series in which when the fiancée is "defective", things can get very messy. But hey, if Grace is willing to go on a diet to charm Isaac, so be it, as long as she does not lose herself.

Well, I quite pleased to see people surfing toward a middle ground.

Wow, ok. I think I agree with the first person commented on your thread, I will just agree to disagree for your fist paragraph. Rationally you're right, in the end it's just a fact. But well, you know it is insensitive, right? It's not being emotional, but as humans, you know that we have to separate facts and insults as different social cues.

In a relationship, I would at least expect my partner to defend my honor, even if they don't love me or even interested in me. For me, I just think that a relationship where your partner doesn't even respect you as a person that you are, is bound to fail later on, no matter how nice he is trying to act around her. That is why I agree that he IS a hypocrite at least, but he is also someone untrustworthy to be in a relationship with, and personally, I could even call him an asshole too.

He can have a type, but as he said, he decided to comply with this engagement, so why did not he try to defend her? Wtf was he doing not reprimand Julia when she said that?

And for your second paragraph, now you're just assuming things. Ofc there will be people who would think that, but as a character, he can be more constructive. Instead of just crying about how she isn't his type to his other girl behind her back, he can be more honest as a character, and be more of a good presence for the princess. About the fatalist....idk, it's kinda making him worse. If he is a fatalist up to that degree (when he didn't even try to defend her honor), I don't think he's a good character to be a political figure, especially a prince?

But you know, I do agree how the royal family and other people who never tried to critisize the princess is the main problem. How did they praise her that much while also talking about her badly on how she's unfit to a social standard, behind her back all this time? While Isaac is someone who is passive up to a fault, where I greatly dislike him for it, the people around her is also the main problem. In the end, the only victim here is the princess. Manipulated to the point of oblivion, then received the fall for it afterwards. I really hope she drop Isaac and be independent minded afterwards, from Isaac, Julia, even from her family.

The issue is he's okay with people looking down on his future partner

I mean that the point is so obvious it needs no elaboration; it is not like I am unaware that words have connotations and denotations. I just sustain the irrelevancy of the distinction here. The adjective carries a negative stigma and is almost always taken as an insult, regardless of intent. Arguing otherwise adds nothing of value here. The term may offend some, but it’s clear readers are not trying to insult Grace or no one denies that Julia’s remarks were malicious. Objectively, Julia was conflating several truths, which happen to be harsh, insulting and insensitive. But focusing on semantics or surface-level wordplay offers no deeper insight—it's a hardly the biggest issue. You could complain that Julia lacks tact, but then so what? She ain't trying to be considerate: she is vicious. She’s essentially doing what nobles do best: engaging in double discourse.

" he decided to comply with this engagement, so why did not he try to defend her?"
I already wrote enough on the matter. See previous replies and below. I hope you will be the last asking me that.

"And for your second paragraph, now you're just assuming things."
I said "I bet". It is not that far-fetched considering other comments out there. You, yourself, said it would make him a jerk to some extent. The other user literally said "He’s a man, he has the power to change people’s thoughts about her". Sounds like some body-positivity arguments to me. And this is inaccurate to some extent: the person most likely to change female beauty norm is the most influential woman in noble society (e.g. Pompadour, Joséphine, Antoinette), influential socialite approved by the Queen/Empress or the Queen/Empress herself can shift norms.

"That is why I agree that he IS a hypocrite at least"
If I dare write, he would be an even greater hypocrite if he defended the Princess. Julia confronted him directly: Oh? Now you're into the Princess, when you once said you'd never date someone like her? The logic tracks—Julia has already exposed him. Defending the Princess would have been bold, perhaps even hinted at a change of heart. But by not reprimanding Julia, he reveals that his actions aren’t driven by love or honesty. Readers can pick up that he still does not find her attractive and that he would not have dated her outside of duty. His passivity may frustrate us, especially if we empathize with Grace—but from Isaac’s perspective, saying less makes sense. His short take shows restraint and no desire to keep ruminating on his liking but also inability to deny them. Morally gray characters fascinate me.

"Instead of just crying about how she isn't his type to his other girl behind her back"
Are you conflating speakers? Be me guest, chapter 44. He did not whine about such to Julia nor intended to. After explaining the broken promise, he was already in his way to leave. Julia halted him and brought up his past liking and all herself. He did not entertain her remark and cut her short. Rather than "crying", he showed resolve. Things have changed, he said. As an adult, he understands the weight of duty and he will endure it. This is not crying out, this is resolve to face his fate. And most often, he speaks in the first person, "I", referring to himself rather than Grace. He did not go there to diss Grace, but to answer questions. Dude has internal conflicts too.

"About the fatalist....idk, it's kinda making him worse."
He's like most nobles trapped in loveless arranged marriages—doing it out of duty. It's basic, standard; nothing revolutionary. Fatalism often gets a bad rap, but in literature and philosophy, embracing fate can reflect emotional strength, humility, and clarity. Going to work every day despite not wanting to could be seen as a form of fatalism too—one that also signals responsibility. I suppose it's all up for interpretation.

"I don't think he's a good character to be a political figure, especially a prince?"
He ain't trying to be a prince. He cannot be a prince even by marrying the Princess—she is not the Crown Princess. He is merely the son of a Count fulfilling his duty, which was to go along with some arranged marriage. He is just a byproduct of society. Even princes may give up on some first loves for the some political marriages. Again, very basic.

"In the end, the only victim here is the princess."
Well, she is not the sole victim, but she is without doubt the main one in this charade. I can say accurately, this is a systemic issue. A failed child, indeed. I too find her endearing in her silliness.

So is the Palace and society.

See, here's the thing. Isaac is a bastard not because he was put in a marriage of convenience, but for how he talked about the princess behind her back. Sure, he may have defended her once, and then basically called her a fat pig he couldn't stand to look at. He was delighted when she got thin because he could finally be "attracted" to her. In the future raws, he actually tells her that she's eating too much and she'll just get fat again, when she's now just starting to actually become healthy. Is it her parents' fault for letting her disordered eating get that far, and the maids for not saying anything? Yes. But Isaac isn't innocent here. He's perpetuating that the princess is basically almost worthless because she's not beautiful and thin. He only treated her nicely in public in front of others because it's in poor taste to bad mouth the royal family. He never actually cared for her, just planning to use her for advantage.

I think it's the fact that he didn't defend her when OTHERS were talking bad about her. Imagine if you were engaged and someone brought up how your fiance was not to a specific standard, would you agree or disagree? It's a matter of dignity and respect. Even if he did not like her appearance, he needed to make the statement that she is a literal princess and for someone to be talking down about royalty is reason enough to not even state it in the first place. Yes, he may not have done the talking, but being a bystander is also bad. Also, with Grace's parents, can you really blame them if people's bodies are simply just built differently. She clearly did not have a dietitian, but she still ate the food prepared for royalty that ALL royalty ate. In the end, people will dislike Isaac for the fact that he was a bystander and when Grace got skinny, he suddenly had a change in his behavior (noted by grace as well in the latest chapter) and did not even care for how she drastically got so skinny (ignoring his fiancee's health). Agree to disagree, but I would not have respect for my fiance if he did not defend me nor if his first concern wasnt about my health if i were to have a drastic appearance change (of any kind).

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You got a pretty low standards tbh..

In terms of what?

Ah. I read quite a few of the stories with men abusing women, in a loveless marriage, in a more despicable and cruel manner to the point I find Issac's demeanor tempered. And, I am not prone to hatred, especially over fictional characters.