Viira's Topics (320)

Make your own manga then.

Agreed! Did you know the MANGAKA might actually stop writing this manga because of ignorant people like that person..? Ugh I want to give the mangaka my love!

I understand your frustration for this story, but to put bullying into the harsh light of public opinion is a thing for which this mangaka should be commended - not condemned. Though it is no game, in real life this behavior is common among the age group depicted. By exposing this behavior and depicting it in a way that readers can relate to and still feel sympathy for both the bullies and the bullied, shows an exceptional writing talent by this mangaka. I think the way this is written shows that the mangaka does not approve of, nor condone bullying, but understands why and how it happens. If bullying is to be stopped and/or prevented, others must understand too.

Mameita said pretty much what I was gonna say.

Now if a person writes a tragic drama, that does not mean they are messed up it means they decided to take the risk of not doing a romantic comedy.

For some writers they want the reader to think. What would you do in this situation? How would you prevent a school as bad as this one from existing?

OR the author wants you to be impacted, by the expression or make you think about why the character acts this way, is it because he's a psycho.

And it's good to feel sympathy that's usually what the author wants to allow you to see the bad in the world and say that's horrid.

Now there are some authors that yeah are messed up but those are rare situations.

Just recently I leant my cousin a book I was reading. I warned her it won't have a happy ending and you might even cry, and then the next week she came running in saying "the character got tortured to death!" She was very mad saying that the author should be arrested..... She also reacted the same way with the gundam anime......
I hope I explained this right I'm not a reading expert... Nor am I good at explaining stuff. Have a good day.

Although I agree it's brave to raise the topic, it's fair to say that part of the discussion should include whether or not we buy the "It's the result of group think" and "It can be protective too" rationale offered by Atsumu and Kuze. No disrespect to the Mangka, but if the story suggests that these rationales hold water, then readers should be free to disagree. That is not to say that everything has to be a fluffy romance, or that the mangaka is bound by any reader's opinions. It's just to say that raising the topic starts the discussion, and people should respectfully engage in it.

I myself a part time doujinka who make my own story, your words are so mean you know? Try to be someone who writes story etc, you will know how it feels.

Oh dang I forgot to mention one thing, sorry. People were also quite dissapointed when the uke decide to stay with the seme. I was too of course but then again think about it.

Going into reality a little, with messed up relationships like these, some people stay in them because they want to fix there partner or hang on to the memories that had a positive effect.... Now I'm not saying there relationship was the most fluffy and positive relationship from the very start.

I think you explain yourself well. It's true that such patterns (staying with n abusive partner) are realistic. It doesn't mean we can't talk about it, just that it does happen. I credit OC for writing a story that prompts such talks--because sometimes people need to see it through a story before they can understand it in real life.

Chill~ if I forgive ,why don't you.

You guys really didn't understand what I was saying. You're just jumping to the defense of a manga you like without thinking about what it could unintentionally be doing. I mean, the rape culture in these comments is at its finest, truly. I was saying my opinion, not trying to stop anyone else from reading. I also didn't say I didn't like the story, I'm here for the tragedy but when people read this stuff and don't know any better, they will think its fine to stay in an abusive relationship and it sends all kind of bad messages. First of all, the biggest reason that this mangaka would have to stop writing is because people distribute it online for free as well as the translations (ooh look, you're all just as guilty.) not because a reader, who has every right to say they no longer enjoy something and are free to stop reading it, says they don't like something about the story. What I was getting at is not that she's trying to bring these topics into light, is that she is perpetuating nasty stereotypes found within the yaoi genre. She's really not ground breaking there. Rape has been part of yaoi from the time it was created. It came about during a movement where japanese women wanted more freedom and found that taking themselves out of the romance roles was therapeutic because it stopped bad feminine lead stereotypes and expectations for women, but it created some ugly too. In the beginning rape was the only trope used to force two men in a story together. One would rape the other, they would discover that gay sex was great, and get together. ANYWAY, I understand that Ogawa writes darker stories, what I said I would be disappointed in is if she tried to justify KArino and Azusa's relationship by saying that the unforgivable HIGHLY CRIMINAL AND ILLEGAL (you actually can't black mail people into sex or rape them, crazy huh) acts were his twisted love and attempt to protect Azusa. I mean, it's cheap writing. I'd be disappointed because I thought she was more skilled than that. You probably won't read all this but I sure hope you do so you understand I wasn't attacking this manga. Im attacking rape culture in yaoi. Something that is actually a problem if you do any research into the genres origin.

Your reply was incredibly well written and I read every word. I support your right to speak your mind openly and even agree with most of your points... save one. Although, a large number of readers on this site, and others like it, are underage... this manga is written for adults. Adults can differentiate between right and wrong and are already well aware that rape falls into the "wrong" category. Those of us who dismiss "yaoi rape" are not doing so because we condone or approve of "real" rape, we dismiss it because we are mature enough to know that it is a plot device in a fictional story.

Rapists don't rape because they read a manga and people don't stay in abusive relationships for that reason either. Their problems run far deeper. Assuming that a manga can make a person a rapist or stay in an abusive relationship is akin to saying rock music makes kids suicidal. I'm sorry, but it's a cop out, naive and ludicrous. If we parent well, it won't matter what kids read, watch, play or listen to... they will know right from wrong. Vent your passion at the parents who allowed their children to believe that raping, abusing and being abused was an okay thing to do, not on manga. Your passion is better suited for those who truly deserve it. IOW, I understand your passionate anti-rape stance, but it is misdirected.

Well said and I totally agree.

I read it, and that was quiet nice. I don't want to sound like I'm defending the Mangaka, but the fact it's causing uproar and repulsion towards rape and everyone being mad at rape in Yaoi, that's the only good point in this, how to provoke readers to refuse rape in manga? If you painted Karino into being a villian and gets a retribution for his doing, readers will be happy the manga will be forgotten and the message will be lost. The Mangaka is trying at least to scar us saying " that's how ugly the rape is and you accepting the rapist and the victim in other mangas is just as bad" look at famous mangas we all love it all starts with rape like Asami and Aki ( I love this series) but it starts with rape.... At least this Mangaka makes you hate the rapist and the fact they'll probably end up together ( which we accept in 90% of the yaoi manga ) this uproar she caused where readers look at bullying and rape with disgust and refuse twisted relationships, is actually a good thing in its' way.

yeah, if you look into at another ligt you'll see the creative aspect and how thoroughly emotions are depicted

That was well said. I think one reason your original post didn't go over as well is that you directed some comments in all caps at the mangaka (OC). I know you were passionately making a point, but it can come across as not only an attack on the manga, but on the person (and persons) who created it. I think some people really want to defend OC as a person and author/artist.

Personally, though I agree with some of what you say, I don't think it is "cheap writing" (especially given that it's a yoai). I think that we should discuss the issues that it raises (like whether the "happy ending" is actually happy, and if we think the diffusion of responsibility implied by the game can justify personal decisions to abuse). However, the way I look at it is that this story presents complex issues and it is up to us to discuss them and make of them what we will.

I don't think that just because we are adults, stories have no influence on how we think. I do think that readers of any age can discuss material and come to different conclusions. I think it can be worth it to read a dark story and say, "Is this how society looks at abuse?" and "Do these ideas make sense if examined closely?". We should question ideas presented by the characters or implied by the author. If it leads to discussion, it can be a good thing.

OH please Vira don't misunderstand.
Yes rape culture is bad of course, and I'm glad you understand this is a dark story.
I forgot to mention another small thing, your desision to stop reading the story is fine.

Now back to the topic, yes it is highly criminal and it's good you want to open such an issue once again Mameitha and Anoni girl said what I was thinking. Your comment did come out as a attack to the mangaka herself orginally and this one is much more well written.

Now the author is doing a good job, I mean not with the whole rape in itself of course.
But how the readers question it, like you saying rape is bad.
Also the expression how the mangaka draws them is very on point. When the ukes were being raped they weren't smiling. They were shock, mad, crying, and just in plain pain. If she got all the readers saying rape of is good that would be bad...

I hope I explained this one right, as I said I'm horrible at explaining stuff....

I don't believe I ever said anything that would lead somebody to thinking that a manga could turn somebody into a rapist. But you acknowledge my point so I don't see how you are able to say that because its for adults that that means that the kids who read it, who we know read it, who we can't stop from reading it, make it okay. I mean, I'm really not saying for people to stop writing this stuff, but as an artist I would think people would care. Honestly, I'm part of a program that helps rape victims and I can assure you that a lot of adults actually can't differentiate between what is right/wrong or rape/not rape. Poor girls have let their rapists get away because they thought it wasn't rape because media doesn't draw a clear line and schools don't teacher proper sex ed. I'm not trying to say that nobody should write manga like this because it can hurt people who don't understand, I'm just wishing that people, that artists, keep intent in mind when writing. I'm an artist myself and have had many lectures on intent and I know that not everything you want to portray comes across in the right way. I guess I'm just a little disheartened when I see comments of young girls saying that they want Karino and Azusa together because it scares me that they can't draw the line. It's very possible they just like the twisted abuse between the two, but some people in the comments really think that their relationship is okay and others say "it's manga, its fine, just dismiss it". But I'm studying to be a story board artist and am very passionate about story telling so I don't like when readers chose to dismiss flaws in characters or stories because you shouldn't, that's part of what makes a story successful or not. I'm not saying you can't like a story with its flaws, I like this story! Bullying is really really bad in Japan right now. And girls especially don't speak up about rape their because they are 100% blamed. That is part of their society. People get blamed for getting in a fight with a creep because they acknowledged the creep, you're supposed to just ignore what others do there.But a lot of people don't know how bad sex crimes and sex trafficking is in Japan and how much these manga reflect on it's readers. I don't really think any of this is misdirected, I think people got upset that I don't really like their pairing and wanted to defend something they cared about. If anything, I think some of their comments were misdirected. Like telling me to make my own manga. I wasn;t saying its because I don't like Ogawa Chise, I just care about story telling and teens that WILL get their hands on this. If we had better discussions about rape and not raping in every country, I wouldn't have felt the need to make any comment at all! But its left up to the individual to educate their children on rape and I think we can agree that they don't do a good job because people are still having sex with intoxicated people. That is legally defined as rape and I have met so many people that don't know that. So I've gone on too much, but taking a fictional work seriously is not something I will ever stop doing. I pick these things apart so that I can't better my story telling skills.

I think its actually the people who read my comment that had misunderstanding... I don't feel like I attacked Ogawa Chise. I didn't say she wasn't capable, she is a very successful mangaka. But I was saying that it's really disappointing to me that she would let her writing incorporate such an over used and damaging trope so as to force to characters together and try to dismiss the problem. And again, I only said IF she intends to do that. I projected fear over the direction of this manga but I have faith in this author because I too adore her twisted work. I think she is a very intelligent woman and that she will shock us in later chapters! However, I do still fear that when she said "happy ending" she's just going to cover up the bad in the relationships and force them together. (The authors don't always get a choice in who a character ends up with either, its generally the majority of the audience, so she could be forced in that sense to put the bad relationships together, I would just hope she'd do it in a successful way, not in a way where she dismisses the bad stuff that happened between them.) I understand that these characters can forgive. Kusakabe is very noble and a great character as far as representation goes and is good for victims to see portrayed in the work. However, I don't want his guard to be down. My hope is his character growth will show him standing up against Kuze and making sure their relationship is one where they're equal. I do feel it may go this way, but of course, I really don't like people ending up with their rapists :/ Especially when Kuze shows he hasn't changed, that he's just behaving so that he can have Kusakabe with him. If Kuze won't change, then their relationship can never become healthy and when Ogawa said "happy ending" I interpret that as the criminals will pay for their crimes or the victims will be liberated or their will not be any more abuse in the form of a relationship because that is sort of what I interpreted as happy. I do understand that that may differ from her interpretation, and that won't make the work itself bad. It just might make it bad in my opinion. I don't assume that when people say something is bad that its because they liked no part of it or hated the author or thinks the author did a bad job, it just means their was an aspect of the story they really couldn't get behind

Oh yes thanks you. You said what I was gonna say about the misunderstanding part, and both parties have misread something but I forgot to type it.....so I just waited to see what you would say..... (yay good example of my bad writing and explaining skills XD).

Hey actually I agree with you, I also want to see the growth in the characters in the future chapters... If it's not finishing soon hopefully. Making the happy end you and I both you and I wish to see. I'm also surprised by who some people ship together.

I might've misunderstood your first statement because of the cap lock...
(I know sounds pretty ridiculous) I read the comment and I imagined what tone of voice you'd use and how would you say it.
That's me looking into something too much, sorry about that . ._.

I said "please don't misunderstand" because I thought you misunderstood that I was defending rape culture (which I don't of course, I wish rape never even happens). But I also misunderstood thinking you meant the author... Well you get that point...

Anyway when I was writing my reply up there I should've stated what I was saying please don't misunderstand about.

It's alright, I understand. I think what set people off about what I was saying is that the mangaka is getting a lot of bad messages on her twitter from fans, but I am not those people. They said people like me were the cause of why she'd have to drop the story and that is just....ridicuous. Firstly, because they themselves are not paying the author for her work so if they really love her and want her to be able to write, they should be buying the manga from Japan. Then, even if they read the english translation online, they have still bought the manga and supported the artist. But secondly, I was venting my annoyance in the comments section. The place where that is exactly where you can vent these feelings. Thirdly, it really upset me because I would never disrespect an artist in that way. If I don't like a story, I drop it. I don't send her profane online messages. That's just immature and wrong. When reading something, I understand its my choice to follow the story, no matter which course it takes, but Japan is different. The fans really do determine what happens but writing the story in a way that makes it the most profitable, for example making the most popular pairing happen. So, it's really only the Japanese fans who have any say over it, not us here in the mangago comments.

Beautifully said. I think your thoughts are precisely what the mangaka was shooting for, that readers think about; discuss and debate the topics raised in the manga.

I very much enjoy reading your comments and replies... even when we disagree (lol)... maybe especially when we disagree... you write articulately and intelligently and you debate with passion. I enjoy the opportunity to debate with someone as capable as you are. Thanks.

I completely agree that people should not attack the mangaka, especially on a personal Twitter account. I thought that the Twitter account incident happened in Japanese? I thought there were some Japanese fans who were upset about chapter 8 too.

Keep in mind that many people who read English versions online for free do buy copies of the manga they like most when the managa are available in their country--but I admit it would be the rare hardcore fan that would pay to have books shipped from Japan when they can not even read Japanese. The market always has some influence over people who want to make a living, and Japan is the biggest market--so it makes sense Japanese fans have the biggest voice.

I have heard the "don't like don't read" comment about negative reviews of books such as 50 Shades of Gray and the later Anita Blake books (among others). I understand the sentiment, but I also think people should get to vent. For example, if a reader thinks 50 Shades misrepresents BDSM scenes, that person has a right to explain why. Comments about how the author turned her back on the fanfic community that made her popular are a little more personal, and I am not sure the people who feel that way don't have a point--it relates to the author as a professional. However, if they make fun of the author's hair and clothes, I think that goes too far. The problem is that you can't control the Internet. I think it is good to tell the author you support her, or make positive comments too, or whatever, but you can't stop negative comments, especially on a controversial topic. It hasn't hurt the sales of 50 Shades (any publicity is good publicity right?).

Agree. I really like Nakamura Asumiko's manga, especially this one.
BTW. I'm so glad, found someone understand her work.
(✿˘◡˘)人(˘◡˘✿)

Totally agree!! they deserve better! ... I ship them too xD they are too cute together! (≧∀≦)

Same ╥﹏╥

Two different stories for sure lol

Haha well I know that, I acknowledged that they're different. But I swear that the back story is the same! At least the one where it ends with the girl slapping him. I was just wondering if anybody else noticed this.