Why the "they / them"s everywhere though ? It's bloody annoying.
They could be Non Binary or Gender Fluid Respect it.
The baby ? And half of the other characters as well ? Riiight...Plus I'm pretty sure "they/them" wasn't used in the beginning, so it's jarring in that sense as well.
Oh, and no, I don't *have* to respect it.
Then leave and don't comment tf.
I commented to ask if there was an intelligent reason why this translation choice was made. Apparently not. I care about this story, and it lessens my reading experience, so I don't see why I should not ask about it.
So I'll return the comment to you : if you don't like my comment / question, don't answer. Tf.
The skeleton doesn't have a gender, they consider the baby like an animal, so it's more of an it, and as for the others it's just hard to tell at first glance and corrected when a proper hint is given during the translation
The skeleton has no gender n they don’t know the gender of the ‘cat’(baby) so the skelly calls it by they/them
Jekdjfxnd ignore my post this is so embarrassing I didn’t read the post on top ⁄(⁄ ⁄·⁄ω⁄·⁄ ⁄)⁄
There, an actual answer, thank you.
That's pretty much what I had inferred, but I do think they should say "it" for the baby, and "he" for Skelly, who definitely looks like a guy to me. The current choice of pronouns is a bit bothersome to read, but thankfully, the story is good enough that it definitely makes up for it ╮(￣▽￣)╭
They seem to see skeletons as entities since they don't come to life in their own and maybe skelly doesn't even think about it in the first place so you could call him as you like
I mean, men and women have different skeletons, so you could give corresponding pronouns, and it's mostly the prevalence of the they / them pronouns that's bothersome to me, not just its use for Skelly. But sure, that makes sense, and I understand why the scan / translation group would make that choice for some of these characters (like the cyclops, who has very ambiguous looks).
It’s because you would only call them “he/him” or “she/her” if they had a sex organ but since they’re a skeleton, they don’t have a gender and we call them “they/them”! Please don’t be rube by saying that you don’t have to call them that! Please respect the way it was written and don’t be a dick head I hope this “intelligent person” was able to help that unintelligent brain of yours understand!(≧∀≦)
I'm pretty sure I never wrote anything about the person being unintelligent, merely the so-called answer they gave me.
As for the use of pronouns, they're mainly cultural : someone who looks like what we culturally deem to be a dude is called "he", and "she" for someone who looks like what we culturally deem to be a woman — that's what gender is. It is distinct from sex — which is why a fully transitioned trans individual will generally be indistinguishable from members of the sex they transitioned to, despite being of the opposite sex, and will generally be called by the corresponding pronoun without having to ask for it. Which is also why Skelly doesn't need to have reproductive organs to be called he or she, because he can look like either — I would say he looks like a guy, because of his size, his clothing, his demeanor, etc., albeit a very dead one. And that's without taking into account that skeletons do have a "sex" — as in, male skeletons are different from female ones (slimmer hips, broader shoulders, etc.).
And once again, I do not *have* to respect anything, and when I find a translation choice annoying, I have every right to call it so. I don't think it's particularly rude, no more than calling out any grammatical or spelling error, and I certainly did not insult anyone.
Oh, and the plural is also used for the baby and other characters, so the argument of "no organs = no sex = no gender = no gender pronouns" wouldn't apply to those other uses anyway.
PS : cut the hypocritical bs, asking someone not to insult others while insulting said person is not a sign of great integrity. Idem for the passive-aggressive tone <3
I think it’s rude cuz there’s transgenders and people who are non binary and when u say that it’s troublesome to use they/them pronouns, they read ur comment they may feel hurt
Also they/them can also refer to a single person, for example “someone left THEIR bottle” or “who are THEY” or “it is THEIR bottle” as in referring to only a single person
Honestly when I read your original first comment I also found u a bit rude for saying it’s troublesome to read they/them just cuz... even though I’m not transgender or anything
Gender is actually a social construct so technically gender doesn’t exist it’s just humans made it up... so yeah idk y u think it’s bothersome to read they/them maybe it’s not cuz ur transphobic but this is a post about y ur thinking is wrong, if u only don’t like reading the they/them pronouns just cuz of ur upbringing.....
Language is also something humans made up, that doesn't mean we should / can throw it out the window, because it rests on social norms to function — if I start writing nvro hgti ofgrmaticv, I might say that it's a language *to me*, but the fact is that it's actually nonsense, that you can't understand it, and that nobody would be able to translate it, so it's pretty much useless.
And that's accepting that gender is indeed *just* a social construct — much of what constitutes gender, such as certain behaviours and mindsets, in fact has a biological origin. You can't dismiss it just because people misunderstand what gender means or the difference between men / women and masculine / feminine. You're not a woman just because you say you are — but, if for example there's a concrete reason why you present yourself as the gender you are not (such as gender dysphoria), or if you're not an entitled prick who demands things of others for their own comfort, then I have no issue with treating you as the gender you wish to be treated as. It doesn't change biological reality, or the fact that, if you call yourself a woman, but haven't in fact transitioned (hormones, surgery, etc.), and simply look like a two meter tall, hairy, beefy dude, you can't expect others to naturally / automatically treat you as a woman. Additionally, if it's just a question of feelings, and doesn't have a basis beyond "I identify as", nobody has any obligation to coddle and indulge you. Again, I'll do it if you're not an entitled prick, otherwise bye. But at that point, it becomes a lifestyle choice, and as such, it has no more merit or obligation to be respected than any other lifestyle choice. Especially so for so-called "non-binary" individuals — there is no basis for such a concept beyond the fact that some people don't feel masculine as men or feminine as women, without feeling necessarily as the other gender, and thus mistakenly think that they must be neither, either because they mistake being feminine or masculine with being a woman or a man, or because they've bought into all the gender nonsense (or because they want to feel special, or for any number of reasons). This is also a lifestyle choice, not an intrinsic component of identity such as ethnicity, sex or sexuality which must be respected insofar as they are not a choice, and thus I have no obligation to respect it or to adhere to it. I feel it necessary to repeat, though, that while I think anything beyond man and woman (which includes trans men and women) is fiction / self-delusion, I would not be rude to anyone choosing those "identities".
As far as your grammatical argument goes, it is besides the point. Yes, there are uses other than the plural for these pronouns, but not to designate an identified individual — if used for a single person, it will be used only when the gender of said person cannot be identified (e.g. "I couldn't see the person coming out of the car, but they seemed pretty tall", "the person who was at the bar before me must have been the one to leave their bottle there", etc.). For an identified individual, it's "he" or "she" ; again, words have meaning. Which is also why this bothers me — it's like having a grammatical mistake repeated over and over again, it makes reading less smooth.
But all of this has gone far beyond my initial question about the change in translation and my statement about an opinion I have on said change (btw, if feelings must be respected, that includes my annoyance in this matter). I simply wish to enjoy to the fullest this story that, so far, I find really good.
Anything has the potential to be offensive to anyone, so I will not restrict myself beyond basic courtesy and politeness for such a reason. If anyone is bothered, they can say so, and we can cross that bridge when we get to it. If any trans / non-binary individual has anything to say to that, they can intervene themselves, I would hope for them that they do not need third party involvement to express themselves.
Constant self-censorship is not exactly healthy, and any reasonable individual has to be able to deal with some degree of offense if they ever wish to function in society, because others don't live to take care of you. You implying in your comment that I might have had poor upbringing is offensive to me, yet I'm reasonable enough not to care, not to assume you had the intention to insult me and my parents, not to make a moutain out of a mole hill, etc. It's called growing up, and growing beyond the narcissism and egocentrism of youth.
how are you an eastern fiction fan and you haven't yet figured out there are both gender-neutral pronouns and lack of pronoun-usage in many of the languages? Translators just do what they can. And language evolving doesn't mean 'throwing it out the window'. You wouldn't be able to understand anybody if you were plunked down in the middle ages. Shit changes--maybe you're the one who needs to get over it. Yeeeesh. What a hill to die on. (=・ω・=)
Well, I'll just refer you back to my prior comments on the subject of usage of plural pronouns for an individual in the ENGLISH language. I am familiar with many different languages, with wildly differing pronouns and pronoun usage, but I was commenting on the ENGLISH translation, and thus on the ENGLISH usage of such pronouns.
As for the evolution of language, there is a huge difference between language evolving naturally and artificially. In the first case, new terms, or new usage of certain terms, become a new social convention — as in, through common usage, they integrate our current language and make it evolve. In the second case, new terms or new usage of certain terms is pushed by certain groups or individuals for ideological or political reasons, without emerging organically from common usage. In either case, we can criticize the change, the origins of the change, the intention behind the attempted change in the second case, etc. Beyond that simple fact, that not all change is the same, not all change is good either. Without debating whether it is good or not in this particular case, I can very well find it bothersome, if it disturbs my reading enjoyment, and comment on that feeling. That you don't feel the same, or don't understand why / agree with why it annoys me changes nothing to that fact. You know, it's called having different opinions.
PS : I'm not looking to die on any hill, it's called disagreement (I refer you back to the apparently novel idea of different people having different opinions). If I express an opinion, and people disagree (or even insult me), I don't quite see why I should not respond, or why I should be blamed for responding. I was not looking to spark a controversy with my comment, and frankly, that there even is a controversy is ridiculous to me. But I guess if you guys have nothing better to do than to get offended at others, that's your prerogative.
Many words have entered the language as a result of ideological and/or political action. Which you would know if you really were the language scholar you claim to be. You just want to shit on people you hate and make it look like you're being reasonable and intellectual. You're obviously offended by and afraid of change. Fear is a natural human response to change, but maybe you should try being more open minded? Change is inevitable and it's going to happen whether you want it to or not. I know you feel like you're the lone bastion of sanity standing against the Leagues of the Ungendered, but really, it's such a small change that costs one nothing personally and makes millions of human beings happy and comfortable in this environment we all share. Why would I balk at something so small? Meanwhile, you've made a huge enormous deal out of it while thinking of yourself as some kind of "language hero". This comic deals with people like you and shows you up in a really humorous manner--how did you not notice that? I guess you were too busy flipping your wig over our collective march into debauchery and language chaos to be anything as humble as self-aware. Maybe when you've passed your middle teens and start seeing yourself as a tiny part of an enormous universe, you'll be more bearable. For now, I really need the company of some adults so I'll bid you adieu forever. Kids are too fucking exhausting (≧∀≦)
Well, that was a useless and uninformed diatribe. I never claimed to be a language scholar, although I do know some and am very interested in the subject, and neither am I a child (although I suspect you might be one).
I never said I hated any of these people, at most I feel bad for the young people who were misguided into having weird ideas about themselves that make them hate themselves and / or society. Again, I have no issue calling a man "she" if he wants to, whether he be trans or not, as long as he is polite about it, rather than being a petulant child making demands about it.
I do not fear change, because I am not an immature child incapable of viewing the world with nuance. Just like any reasonable individual, I find some change welcome, some change neutral, and some change detrimental to society, or to myself, etc. As for its inevitability, if I find some change detrimental to society, of course I should fight against it. If society became increasingly intolerant to trans people, and I found it wrong, would it be stupid of me to try and oppose that change ? The climate is changing, should I not do what I can to fight that change ? I do not think you would think so in those cases. You just disapprove of people fighting change that you yourself approve of. Sorry, but I'm not here to be a hypocrite.
Oh, and changing gender identities is not exactly a small change, especially with how it impacts relations between genders, relations of individuals with their own bodies and selves, the way we educate children (such as allowing them to take hormone blockers at a young age if they claim to be trans), etc. Whether you consider the change to be good or not, you can't deny that it is a huge one. This use of pronouns is thus itself significant, because it is symptomatic of this huge change.
Finally, I was not making a huge social statement, I was commenting on a TRANSLATION CHOICE. I was then insulted and assumptions were made about my intentions, thus I responded. I was not the one to start (or even particularly to want) this debate. But please, tell me what "people like me" are, or what my intentions were, or what my life experience is. Please, do enlighten me. Oh no, right, you don't intend to respond. Too bad, I guess you're not much for dialogue. But I'm the close-minded, childish one.
I'm French...I just can't with the king's name (￣∇￣")
try to not read past Kind, but I know what you mean. I try to think of macarons when reading his name. xD
*King
I really want to have a manhwa version of the novel ╮(￣▽￣)╭
This is also great though, they're cute (๑•ㅂ•)و✧
Love the character building and the setting !
And for all the people in the comment section harping about racism : this is a bloody FANTASY setting, with none of our races, none of our history, none of that. Stop bringing your own hang-ups and modern issues into this. For fuck’s sake. I understand if you, personally, would have preferred for her to stay dark-skinned because of the aesthetic (I would have preferred that as well), but don’t go all « this is racist », « racist author », or worse « I only read this because the character is dark-skinned, so Imma drop this ». What the actual hell ? How do you read a story JUST because the character is dark-skinned ? And stop with the « muh-representation » already. I can understand wanting to see people who look like you, but newsflash : manga characters literally look like nobody, in most cases they’re supposed to represent Asian people (not White, or Black, or Middle Eastern, etc.), nobody (author, writer, etc.) has ANY obligation to include « representation ». If they want to draw only Asian people ? Good for them. If they only want to draw Black people ? No problemo here. If they want to draw only white people ? That’s their prerogative. As long as the quality of the drawings and of the story are good, that’s what matters. Not every country is the US, not every country has that history, leave the rest of the world the fuck alone already.
For now, the story and drawings are good, that’s what’s important.
It can be interpreted as racism. Stories are for people to interpret on their own and if people interpret it that way they can.
Yesss someone here saying only the truth!!! But yeah. I feel like a lot of people came to read cause the fl has dark skin. While I'm here cause the title instantly made me go "Oooh~" But yeah since I don't take comments to heart that much. Some on these comments make me....idk. Cause I'm like, have they never seen a dark skinned Asian. And since when have these types of comics referred to any country except Japan or the fantasy one? But yeah haha
Yesss someone here saying only the truth!!! But yeah. I feel like a lot of people came to read cause the fl has dark skin. While I'm here cause the title instantly made me go "Oooh~" But yeah it doesn't rlly bother me since I don't take comments to heart that much. Some on these comments make me....idk. Cause I'm like, have they never seen a dark skinned Asian. And since when have these types of comics been referred to any country except Japan(and Korea) or the fantasy one? But yeah haha
Please stfu....u don't know there are black japanese people right......the fl wasn't black she was a dark skinned japanese
...that's what I'm saying, that she isn't in fact "black" (as in, of African descent). As far as I know, she's either supposed to be dark Caucasian (as this story takes place in a Western setting and dark-skinned Europeans do exist) or dark Japanese. And even then, it's not supposed to be a mark of ethnicity (within the Japanese people) or of class (dark skinned = working outside = being a peasant in most traditional cultures), but a magic "stigma" (the mark of the dark king fairy, or something). Which is why the comments about so-called "racism" or "colourism" annoyed me.
Calm down that's not what the commenter said. It's actually like the opposite, they were referring to other comments
I knew what was coming after looking at the raws, but it was still overwhelming to read ╥﹏╥
Same ~! ╥﹏╥
Me too.
Let's all collectively wallow in this bittersweet misery ┗( T﹏T )┛
Làtom to that!
*joins you all in sobbing like crazy* ╥﹏╥
The FL is complete trash ╮(￣▽￣)╭ Still love her though (๑•ㅂ•)و✧
not trash.. just a smartass.. i mean it's refreshing seeing fl that knows how to use people and things to her advantage and being smart with it lool
I mean, yes, she’s smart. But it’s almost the definition of being trash to wilfully use others like that, and appreciate them primarily for what they can do for you. Again, I still like her, doesn’t mean she’s not a terrible person ╮(￣▽￣)╭
My eyes hurt and my face is all puffy. There’s something going on in my chest too ╥﹏╥
This is criminal, I can't wait for the rest ╥﹏╥
(But seriously, this is beyond awesome, I can’t even (≧∀≦) )
I feel bad for all the people in this situation : MC comes back after five years to find out his lover found someone else, the ex finally managed to get over the loss of the MC whom he thought to be dead, only for the MC to come back and throw him for a loop, and the ex's current bf has to deal with the whole mess and probably be in a constant state of anguish because he knows how much the ex cared for the MC. Even if his reaction is not great, far from it, I still feel bad for him, and everyone else involved. I see a lot of comment criticizing the ex and his new lover, but for now, they are not portrayed as bad people — the ex especially did not *betray* the MC, since after five years without news from someone who disappeared during a violent civil war, it ain't exactly far-fetched to assume said disappeared person to be dead.