Tima's Topics (80)

THIS!!! Guys remember this can work just in the media, but irl don't be like Hanuem when you fell in love with a person like Ipsae. I love him too, but just as a character, this is not real, and you can hurt yourself!

I always roll my eyes when I read it, after digesting yaoi for 16 years now (!) I just do not take stuff seriously anymore. Can't expect it to be realistic, it has it's own rules lol. ┗( T﹏T )┛

Louder for the people in the back!

Real, also homopobhic woman are exist and can be more rude and cruel. And some of them would manipulative gay man to married them to "fixed" that man...and then would mad and blame that person if he still being gay

They want to silence us, which actually worked a lot. Anyone defending this manhwa got insulted. And now all the jinx lovers are showing up, it's a little late, I think, being silent for so long was leaving the way clear for all this kids to say what they want, they agree with each other and it pollutes the comment section with nonsense.

The haters are just as excited as us,why they're here if they aren't,right? One troll below was all gears and is ready for trolling. They just wanna spread the hate virus in the comsec and bully the readers.

Well said, I agree! The morally righteous readers probably feel ashamed for thinking Jaekyung is super hot, even though they hate him with a passion. And they probably also like the story. So to cope with their hate and shame, they swarm the comment section of many sites to hate on those who like it in order to make themselves feel better. They could also be trolls who just want to start problems in the comment section to rile up negative emotions for no reason besides their own entertainment.

Personally, I don’t have any real problems with people reading and enjoying Jinx, and I think people coming at others from that angle are. Wrong, lol. While I think it could be/could’ve been much better written, there are other elements of it that are well-done and/or enjoyable, too. I just worry about how some people are interpreting certain elements of the story…you say this story isn’t real, for example. I think that’s a complicated statement to make.

Of course Dan and Jaekyung and the rest of our cast aren’t “real” in the sense that they may not have any direct real world counterparts, but I do find that there’s elements of realism in Jaekyung’s character and in Dan’s financial situation and in the way that their relationship plays out overall. There really ARE deeply insecure men like Jaekyung out there, who mask that insecurity with incredibly toxic masculinity, and who abuse others because of it. And there really ARE people like Dan out there who, because of their financial status, are exploited and forced into doing labor that they’d really rather not do…who have no recourse against the abuse they receive as a result.

I understand not everyone is reading that deeply into it and that’s Fine I guess, even though I think it’s a key facet of the story. But it does make me a bit worried when I see people very seriously and genuinely (because I get it, we can sometimes make light of these stories where horrible things are happening—that’s not what I’m talking about) openly dismissing or excusing Jaekyung’s actions, and/or put undue responsibility on Dan for being in the situation that he’s in. I think it does speak to people’s real life perspectives on these types of issues.

Facts I don't get their weird obsession with this story when they claim it's trash. I personally don't read anything I don't like. I love myself too much to invest in reads I don't like

I get what you are saying and you are right but these stories have synopsis that warn readers beforehand. These stories are 18+ not just for the smut but also to ensure that the readership is at least post high school and has the competent comprehension skills to realise that if a story isn't meant for them
beat it. And lastly and most importantly as reader one can be able to separate reality from fiction without being carried away by the motion of the story. All stories emulate life to some extent but that doesn't mean the contents are to be glamourised or romanticised. The contents exist exclusively for entertainment.

In my case, I don't make excuses for Jaekyung's extreme toxic behaviours (such as the abuse and how he reacted to Dan's gift). His more mild toxicity, like having a bad attitude and being rude to some of the team members, can probably be excused due to his past issues that we aren't aware of at this point. However, I don't hate him. Considering his entire character as a whole, I see good points as well and believe he's redeemable.
I have noticed that some readers seem to only focus on the toxicity, and nothing else. That is their prerogative of course, as they can focus on what they want. It becomes problematic, however, when they try to hate-shame others for liking the story. Even if I don't agree with what someone likes in fiction, I don't feel it's my place to judge or make assumptions because it's none of my business. And considering that it's just fiction, I don't let it bother me. Fiction often does contain real life portrayals of toxic situations, as you pointed out, which can be a positive thing. It allows the reader to witness a toxic character learn from their mistakes and become a better person, and it allows people with various fantasies (e.g. rape) to have a safe outlet to experience something they very likely abhor irl.

Yes, I'm the same way :) I don't read anything that I don't like, and have dropped many stories. It would be a waste of my time to read something I get no enjoyment out of. Jinx is one of the few manhwas that I find really interesting and I love the art style!

Actually,I read the all the comments above me and I agree with all of them. We readers read the story that we like and before reading we read the title,tags and synopsis,so we are responsible of what we read and no one else.

All I'm gonna say is if you can't differentiate between fiction and reality... instead you're getting so triggered by it then it's on you lmao.

I, personally didn't even read the title or knew the theme, knowing this author in particular was going to release her new manhwa, was enough for me to reading it immediately because I know her talent and what to expert.
If you're not prepared for this content, this is not for you. I'm really wondering how adults can not understand this fact and start accusing you about idontknowwhat, you didn't discover the dark web, this is just a random website u access through browser, we're doing nothing wrong.
Of course, authors try to paint a portrait of the society around them, this is their starting point but that does not mean that these events and these characters exist: the fact of seeing that a person like Dan has had so much luck by seeing himself paid for all his debts, his grandmother being treated in good conditions, immediately makes me feel that it is too good to be true. The dissociation between truth and fiction is already made in the 1st chapter.
I wouldn't go and read Jinx if I wanted to learn more about its social facts, there are other media that do it better, I read because it allows me to detach myself from reality, so I don't tell to myself every chapter ''oh, poor guy, he got fired, there are people losing their jobs every day'' my focus is made on the two protagonists that DOESN'T exist and not on the real facts surrounding them. How? by IMAGINATION. You shouldn't take yourself too seriously, especially when you read this kind of content, you need to step back.

I mean, I’m not really talking about whether or not the story is or isn’t meant for someone, nor am I just talking about people who are underage. Nor am I even really talking about glamorization or romanticization. Definitely there are full grown adults who would (and do!) look at Dan, or someone like Dan, and say something along the lines of “well, he deserves what he’s getting” or “he asked for this” or “he should’ve just done something else,” you know? Which to me shows a lack of understanding not only of this fictional Dan’s situation, but also of how these people might respond to seeing or hearing about someone like Dan IRL. Does that make sense?

I assistant teach a class on sex ed and during a session while we were talking about sex work, one of my students really did acknowledge how harmful/dangerous sexual work could be…and instead of calling for safer conditions for those workers or considering why people do that kind of work to begin with DESPITE it’s dangers, she said that those people should just get another job. This is a college class! My students are adults! The rhetoric some people who I’ve talked to about the consent in this webtoon PERFECTLY aligned with that which people use to talk about real life sex workers. Do you see the issue here?

That’s kind of what I mean when I’m saying what I’m saying. Yeah the story is fictional—but how people are thinking through some of it can reflect their real world biases.

I’m curious what you think are Jaekyung’s redeeming qualities. I’m slowly rereading it and taking my own notes this time around so I can have a stronger analysis of the story but I know I couldn’t see much that felt worthwhile the first time around, and now as I’m rereading it I think…hmmm he’s more interesting than I gave him credit for at first, but still has flawed writing to me. As of right now though I can only give him that he’s dedicated to his craft and hardworking. Otherwise he is…deeply insecure and doing everything in his power to mask that insecurity. Also has the same brainrot rich people seem to get when they have too much money.

Anyway, yeah, I don’t agree with people who are hating on or shaming people who like the story on the mere basis that the story is problematic or depicts bad things. I think that’s dumb—of course we can engage with stories that depict dark and taboo subject matters and of course one’s engagement with those things does not make them an inherently bad person or immediately reflect their real world morals. I even agree with you that these kinds of stories can be good, because it can help people reflect on themselves and, like you said, learn how not to act. I’d even go as far as to say they can help victims who have been in this type of situation (or who are currently in this type of situation) see and make sense of their own experience.

So yeah I don’t have much of an issue with a reader like you, I think. I have an issue with readers who have expressed very particular types of sentiments towards Dan and the situation that he’s in—people who are not factoring in his financial situation when they discuss who is at fault for what’s going on in Dan and Jaekyung’s relationship, who don’t factor in that Jaekyung is Dan’s employer (and also incredibly famous and powerful), who act like Jaekyung can’t behave differently.

What here indicates that I’m a) unable to differentiate between fiction and reality and b) triggered by what I’m reading? Am I wrong for seeing what I think are very blatantly obvious parallels between, say, Jaekyung’s character and the way that insecure men behave? Or the way that the ultra wealthy behave?

I mean I’m more than fine with the contents of this story, just maybe not entirely with how the author goes about it—but I’m still rereading it so my mind might change on some things.

But you are kind of…I don’t know how to say this but the fact that you think Dan’s situation is a completely fictional one is kind of like, part of the issue LOL. And I wouldn’t call Dan’s situation entirely lucky at all—sure his debts get covered and his grandma can get better treatment, but that comes at the cost of his mental and physical health. It’s like he’s traded one poison for another in some ways. Not an ideal situation.

But you DO KNOW there are like…real sex workers (both willing and unwilling) whose lives end up following a similar trajectory to Dan’s, right? Like, deeply impoverished people/people in precarious financial situations who do sex work even if they don’t really want to because for one reason or another they can’t do anything else, who sometimes are able to make a decent enough wage to take care of themselves and their families. Or people who are unlucky enough to be preyed on by the ultra wealthy and while, yeah, perhaps getting paid for it, suffer physically and mentally? Jeffery Epstein? Diddy? This was something I actually liked about the story, I thought that the situation was set up quite well, and then…well, anyway.

Stories can and often DO do some kind of social commentary even if/when they’re not meaning to, though. Like I said if it’s not that deep for you, that’s fine, I guess—but I think it’s a bit silly and even demeaning to the author to act like there aren’t these elements of real life she’s drawing from that creates the narrative and the characters and the dynamics between them. The basic foundation of Dan and Jaekyung’s relationship and why it can happen IS that Jaekyung is very wealthy and Dan is very fucking poor I get it’s a trope and I think it’s worth analyzing it through that lens, too—but am I wrong to see that, and think to myself, “hm, this reminds me of some situations I’ve seen and heard of happening in real life”? Or to look at Jaekyung’s character and the way he acts and treats others and be like, “hm, he reminds me of how some men think of themselves and act in real life”?

I don't discuss the author's choices, she does what she wants, it's her imagination, if I don't like what she does I stop reading her. And I don't see how its bad thinking that what happens to a character is just fiction, for good or bad. I think he was extremely lucky. What makes u think that in real life, a guy like JJK would be gay, that he'd be interested in dan, that he would welcome him to his house, defend him against bad ppl and keep him as a physiotherapist despite his incompetence (Dan says it himself, there are better physiotherapists than him).
Do you think that because I detach myself from the social truths in fiction that I am blind to what is ravaging this world irl? Do you believe that if I think that what happens to this character does not affect him, proves that there is a problem with me and that if I ever came across a person like Dan, I would not help him or be insensitive ?
I don't want to find myself talking about serious things I'm precisely supposed to forget when I come here. I don't want to talk about sex workers, or these people you site, because I don't see the connection. I'm here to see a handsome seme fall in love with a cute uke, look no further. When I read I don't look for what is close to reality, I avoid this reality. I just hope you don't think the author's inspirations aren't real psychopaths or rapists.
This fantasy of the rich and handsome guy who kidnaps you or is interested in you when you are nothing does not come from an inspiration.
It's just the unspeakable dreams of adults that are transcribed in what they read.
If jjk was ugly no one would read this manhwa, if the prince who kissed Snow White without her consent at the end was ugly and not noble, everyone would have found it disgusting. Our fantasies begin even in childhood, without knowing the reality of the world around us, in this type of fiction, don't question anything, it is only the feelings that count and not the reason, if you want to appreciate a work. You have to be a dreamer

Correcting my sentence here "I just hope you don't think the author's inspirations are real psychopaths or rapists" because they are not.

I mean maybe it's because all I do in school is read and analyze and break down stories but I think it's perfectly natural and good, even, to like. Ask why an author did things the way they did. Not just for these big picture conversations about what kinds of beliefs and biases might she have consciously or subconsciously included in her story, but simply to better understand how the story is working and how well it's working to convey the things it's trying to convey. YOU don't have to do that if you don't want to, I suppose. But I think, at the very least, it's a good skill to use.

But yeah I think it can be bad to claim that something that ISN'T just fiction, IS fictional, because it can result in dismissing or downplaying people's experiences. I read about this just yesterday—sometimes, for example, white people will dismiss experiences of racism that black people have with others because they think it sounds too unrealistic, or that it's not a big deal. And you literally do it in your next sentence—asking me what makes me think that this type of situation could happen in real life. It's because it has and does often happen in real life! Yes, not exactly like it does in this story—I 100% acknowledge that, but still! I will go back to Jefferey Epstein—he did quite literally offer young women and underage girls an exorbitant amount of money to give him "massages," even though they were, of course, inexperienced! That's real life, dude! https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epstein-accuser-says-ghislaine-maxwell-groped-pressured-massage-rcna8348

I'm not here to take away from your enjoyment of this story, but I think two things can be true at once. You can enjoy the story for the reasons you say you do while still acknowledging some of its truths, whatever those truths may be. Or at the very least, you don't have to shut other people down when they point out those truths. I'll sometimes go back and listen to Pink Album by Filthy Frank and laugh at it, but I know full well he's saying very rancid things that people could justifiably argue he should NOT be saying, even if he's doing it for the sake of parody. I'm glad that you would try to help someone like Dan IRL and that you wouldn't be insensitive towards him and his situation (which, like, side note...you have been repeatedly claiming that Dan didn't experience any rape or coercion amongst other things, which is why I might think you might be insensitive but idk, I don't know you), but still...just because you want to escape from reality doesn't mean you get to deny that reality is true. In fact, aren't escapist fantasies made precisely in response to some undesirable reality?

People dream about the rich guy who captures/kidnaps you partially because, to some degree, they WANT to be obsessed over and treated lavishly, or at least want to experience some kind of financial security. Of course not in the way it plays out in this webtoon but like, yeah! And that desire can stem from their own reality or just from something else psychological. Often both! And even you just said previously that the author was pulling from the society around her. People make up that society! The art that those people produce, amongst other things, make up that society's culture! I'm not claiming the author pulled from real psychopaths and rapists, I don't know that for sure—and honestly, nothing would be inherently wrong with that—but she's gotta be pulling from somewhere. Absolutely nothing and nobody exists in a vacuum. Honestly, it's an interesting question to ask, given Korean society's gender politics right now...those are the kinds of things that can subconsciously sneak its way into people's stories.

My news feed was bombarded by the news about P d*ddy and how he SAed Justin B.,and the other of his talents. We don't know what is the terms and conditions inside their contracts or if these victims were threatened by Diddy ( pointing a gun on their heads,threat to kill their families,or dirty videos). JB was also 15 when he was allegedly SAed by him and his company ( I just saw it from a news ). That means he was a minor when he was SAed and any contracts signed by him with Diddy can be revoked or reviewed. And can be used against Diddy.

Let's review the contract between Dan and Jk,what are the terms and conditions. Let's also review if there are deceptions in the contract from Jk since he is the employer because it can be revoked and used against Jk. Or if there are threats from him when Dan showed aggression of not signing the contract. Let's also review the capacity of Dan when he signed the contract if he is able to read or understand their contact and,if he was a minor without his consent and his guardian's consent in the contract. These are the legal process. And if Jk was found guilty he can be sued by Dan in the court. Sex workers are most especially deceived by their employers and their contracts, HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND EXPLOITATION,and that is illegal and is a crime. Most of the victims are also minors who don't know and understand their contracts and only signed it out of deceit and lack of understanding.


I'm not defending JK because I know his character and his nature,and sometimes fictional characters are overrated like him. And if Dan is a real person,I doubt if I can help him because Dan is secretive and and it's his private life unless he opens to me personally. If I rubbed my nose on their business I can be seen as someone who is interfering with them,and what if JK will sue me instead? We cannot even interfere with our neighbors businesses,how much more of a big celebrity like him? Besides even if there are assaults from jk,only the government or the law makers can assist and help Dan. That is if Dan is willing to sue jk.

I believe that Dan can leave Jk even from the start if he really wants to. He even left him now,so that means he have a choice. The thing is Dan is into Jk ( the sad truth ) the reason he cannot leave him then. He even chose him from Heesung who is willing to pay Jk their contract value.

Bro, it's just two inexistent sexy characters making out :// nothing deep I swear.

I know babe, I'm just replying to a comment saying or asking how we respond to seeing or hearing someone like Dan in real life. The comment was also talking about real celeb Diddy. Thank you for reminding me.

Again with u're examples... I don't wanna hear about Epstein in comment section of my favorite manhwa, dude. To put it simple : real life sucks man, and I don't want to hear about it :// you, on the other side, you're the opposite, I bet u reading every article u find, you go through every document... It's called morbid curiosity. I know the main points that's enough for me. "That's real life blablabla" mmh life is wonderful, there is not only misery in the world-_-
Why can't u just stop comparing this fiction to something you know? I'm telling you this is not the purpose. Stop questioning everything. Go read scientific facts, real ppl that need help and comment to them.

Sure, we can talk about Dan and Jaekyung's contract and whether or not Dan had a choice to leave...as well as things like if Jaekyung would be found liable in court. Personally I'm not so much worried about legality as I am these other questions of like, consent and ethics and stuff like that.

I personally don't think Dan had, at least at the beginning of the webtoon, any real choice in whether or not to be with Jaekyung. He was working three jobs already, got blacklisted from other places of work, was deep in financial debt, and was on the verge of becoming homeless. Not to mention his grandma is sick in the hospital. I find it really hard to look at his situation and just say he could've/should've done something else—it was either take Jaekyung's deal or starve on the streets, y'know? I don't know about the government programs in this world or in real life South Korea or anything to be able to say that maybe there was some other place he could've found good money and/or shelter, but...at least here in the US, we don't have strong programs like that at all. He would've needed help from SOMEONE. Unfortunately that someone turned out to be Jaekyung.

It's true though that he develops feelings for Jaekyung (though personally I find this to be superficial...haven't gotten back to that part of the webtoon yet though so maybe my mind will change). At that point, yes, things are more complicated. Even then, he does indeed just...leave. But that's only after his financial situation improve somewhat—and honestly we don't know how he's going to fair AFTER leaving Jaekyung. Will he be able to find employment that sustains him the same way? Will he be able to find somewhere else to live? Etc etc.

Besides,even if JK did not involved himself with Dan. Dan will still face the loan sharks who also caused him and his grandma much trauma and depression. I wonder why JJk is so temperamental? Is that a side effect of his jinx?

Well yeah man, you're the one who was saying there's no connection between what is depicted in this webtoon and the things that happen in real life. I simply wanted to show you that statement is demonstrably false. I like knowing and understanding the world around me and the people in it, I think it's important and worthwhile to do. Again if that's not something you want to do, that's fine, I guess. You can read and enjoy this webtoon without necessarily thinking about all those things, you can absolutely just turn your brain off if you like...but you don't get to outright deny that reality exists, as you have been trying to do.

But um, yeah, I...can't stop that comparison/connection thing. I mean putting aside that that's just how my brain works, it's something I enjoy doing, and like...you should always practice a healthy amount of skepticism...didn't we both already say that these stories tend to draw from some aspects of reality? Whether that be other stories or from a living person or a particular government or culture...it's natural to draw those connections if you're familiar with these things. There are people in these topics talking about the realism in how some aspects of the MMA fighting is portrayed in this webtoon. Honestly, I didn't know about that—but they do, and they felt like pointing it out because they have an understanding of the sport. Who am I to tell them not to make that connection? Frankly it makes me appreciate an aspect of the story I didn't think much about before, because now I know the author did do genuine research on the profession in order to portray it realistically + deepen her character/story a bit more.

Anyway, neither of us can say for sure what the intended "purpose" of this webtoon is. Only the author knows what they intended. And even then...just because an author says or intends one thing, doesn't mean that their work can't be shown to say another thing. Look up Death Of the Author if you're interested in literary theories and whatnot.

I could talk so much about this dude's jinx that's one thing where. Well. We will truly have to see what the author has in store and if she'll explain it any more than she has already but as of right now I think it's such a silly and unnecessary plot device as it is now.

I personally think that Jaekyung is temperamental because he's insecure. About what, we don't know yet. But as I was rereading I noticed in those first couple chapters, when he flips out at his first fuck buddy, it's particularly in reaction to the guy calling him "pathetic" lol.

This is a genuine question because I think that you're from the US according to your comment. Akaito,is there a loan sharks in your state or in the whole US? I'm reading bl manhwa and the real problem or the root problem of any mc like Dan ( not all but mostly) is these loan sharks. In my country there are people who proposed borrowed money but it's not actually like what the loan sharks are. There are no contracts only verbal. And the only institute to borrowed loan money is from the bank or the company we are working.

I don’t really know tbh! I don’t think so. I mean there are definitely like, gangs and stuff like that, where if you borrow money from them or something like that then you can get into seeerious seeious trouble but I don’t know about loan sharks. I’ve just looked it up and apparently these are “moneylenders who offer loans at extremely high or illegal interest rates, have strict terms of collection, and generally operate outside the law, often using the threat of violence or other illegal, aggressive, and extortionate actions when seeking to enforce the satisfaction of the debt.”

Maybe Dan’s grandma got targeted by these guys—I was about to say it must’ve been Dan himself who got targeted to begin with + took out a loan from them, but Dan and his grandma were impoverished even when Dan was just a kid. Was rereading and caught that detail of one of Dan’s birthday cakes being a convenience store red bean bread his grandma bought…my poor fucking boy

That silly and unnecessary plot device will be used to redeem jk,I know it already. I know from reading experience lol.


Maybe JK wasn't into men but someone put cursed on him. Maybe he was insecure because of that reason. Just maybe, it's just my imagination lol. Well,Diddy is also a straight guy and his victims as well or am I wrong? I also accept corrections lol. And is jinx or curses still exist in modern era?

I agree,Maybe these loan sharks were targeted Dan from the beginning. They want to sell him if his grandma can't pay them or they want him to work as their sex sl*ves.

Ummm....you know that both the manhwa plot Jinx AND the "jinx" that you speak of are fictions, right?? If you do, what's the point of your question, "And is jinx or curses still exist in modern era?"

I know very well babe. Since this manhwa was set in modern era my question about jinx and curses is valid to the fiction world and not in our world. If this manhwa is historical,ofc it's natural to have magics and curses. The omegaverse is different as well. Me and Akaito were talking about jk and his jinx. I just also want to emphasize that even irl straight men are into men as well,so I put d*ddy as an example. There's no negative intentions in my comment. It's just an assumption of mine and an answer to Akaito's comment that jk's jinx will be used as a method to redeem him. I think there's nothing wrong with that.

Honestly I don’t know the specifics of the Diddy situation. He might be straight, he might be gay, he might be bi, whatever. Rape and sexual assault don’t necessarily have to do with sexuality so sometimes you will see otherwise straight people going after those who wouldn’t fit into that sexuality.

No way bro said JK was cursed into being gay now THAT would have real problematic implications LMFAOOOOO. But see that’s the thing…for a webtoon that is grounded in realism (as in does not have other fantastical/speculative elements), I find it so ridiculous that Jaekyung has this “jinx” and that it’s treated like a serious magical spell or curse he’s been put under. That’s the first thing. The second thing is that it’s hard to buy into it as something that’s actually real because at least up till now, we haven’t seen what happens if/when he doesn’t have a fuckbuddy…he could just be lying and/or it could all be in his head for all we know. Either way the fact that we haven’t at least seen any real ramifications of his jinx not being fulfilled makes it seem more ridiculous

Personally I think the “jinx” would make more sense and/or be more compelling if it appeared in a different way. Like if it was really just that Jaekyung likes the happy chemicals that come from sex. Or if he was lying about the jinx and just using it as a way to manipulate guys into having sex with him. Or yeah, if it was all in his head…but that one is less satisfying to me/doesn’t feel like it makes much sense for his character (like why would he convince himself that he needs to have sex in order to win? or why would someone else convince him of that?). Or even if it was real—it’d be fun to see him actually freak out more at the idea of losing Dan because he knows it’ll impact his performance.

Akaito I'm a natural born woman so it's just my imagination that jk is a straight man cursed to eat another man. I'm sorry about that silliness of mine lol. About his jinx, that's one of the reasons why I keep on reading this manhwa. You know,I really love talking with you. You are really realistic and your comments really rocks. I can't refute them because they are true. Tsk, you're a professor so it's natural for you. I love jinx and jk( please do not hate me for this, call me bitch I will accept ). Maybe the one who's lying is the person who put jinx on jk. Maybe he only deceived jk from the start because like you said,if the jinx is true then why did his last match was a draw?

It's been fun talking with you too. I'm glad you find my comments worthwhile lolol I just...have so many thoughts about this webtoon and how people respond to it. And nothing's wrong with liking this webtoon or even Jaekyung as a character, again, not inherently lol. As much as I critique its writing, I'm also willing to praise it for what it does well. The art is quite nice, for one—I like how the author colors and shades, and I like the facial expressions as well. And Jaekyung, even though we could get more out of him (again, still rereading), is a more interesting character than I think I initially gave him credit for. Or at least, he has the potential to be. Again from what I see so far I think he's a deeply insecure person and acts the way he does in order to mask whatever underlying insecurities he has. In that way, he's quite realistic. It's not enough for me to buy that he (at least as of now) secretly likes Dan yet, though. Or that he and Dan should be in a romantic relationship with one another.

I don't remember about his last match though, I'll have to see when I get there. But hm, about someone cursing Jaekyung—if this were a more fantastical story then I could very easily buy that he'd get cursed LMFAOOO. I mean look at his attitude, and look at his interaction with his previous fuck buddy. If that guy had magic powers he'd 100% fuck Jaekyung's life up. It wouldn't have been that Jaekyung was perfectly innocent before, and someone who just had it out for him cursed him. It would've been that he was and always has been an entitled asshole, and someone who he wronged cursed him because of it, maybe to teach him a lesson, or maybe just to make him suffer (although, really...it's Jaekyung's partners who seem to suffer the most). And Jaekyung, instead of actually learning his lesson, just decided he was going to tough it out/take out his frustration on everyone else, instead of doing what he needs to actually do to break the curse. I could buy that kind of thing.

Exactly! It's an escape from reality, as you said. It contains factual things that happen irl, but it's NOT real life. That's the whole entire point that some readers don't seem to get.

To me, he has many redeeming qualities. I'm surprised you can't see them. Examples include how he protected Dan from the loan sharks, he paid off Dan's debts, he let Dan live with him, he visited Dan's grandmother and kindly talked with her for hours, he paid ahead to cover Granny's hospital bills, he gives to charities, he's kind and patient with his fans (e.g. one scene shows him spending his own personal time with a fan when he didn't have to), he respects his elders and puts up with the coach talking to him the way he does and hitting him (interesting considering that Jaekyung is Namwook's employer and could fire his ass in two seconds). And yes, he's also dedicated to his career and hardworking, as you said, which is a redeeming trait. I agree with you that he has insecurities, and I think they play a role in how he presents himself to the world. I don't agree that he has "brainrot rich people seem to get." He likes to showcase his wealth, but I find him to be very generous and not selfish when it comes to money.
You mentioned that you have issues with how some readers interpret certain elements of the story. However, imo, that shouldn't concern you. Since it's fiction that is for the purpose of entertainment, it doesn't matter how they interpret things. For instance, I accept things and view them very differently when it comes to fiction. In no way does this reflect how I truly interpret them irl :)

I couldn't say no more. I respect your honest reviews. I appreciate how you give critique and praise for this manhwa. And I agree that Jk is an insecure person and that we don't know what is the root caused of that insecurity. If he was born insecure or there's a big reason out of it. I also agree with you about Jk being secretly into Danny boi (≧∀≦).My poor hamham.. Maybe this season he will realize his insecurities and learn his lessons.Thank you for listening/ reading my comments without being rude. Thank you Akaito,I've learn a lot from talking to you and reading your comments.

I love this comment!! You stated my own thoughts perfectly :)
I completely agree with what you said about readers enjoying fantasies, like being whisked away by some handsome guy or being kissed awake by the prince. Anything goes in fantasy! For the next season, I'm fantasizing about Jaekyung becoming obsessed with Dan and stalking him. I wouldn't even mind it if he kidnapped him. I still want to see some toxicity because it's not believable if Jaekyung becomes a green flag right away. All the morally righteous readers and the ones who can't differentiate between fiction and reality would gasp and say "you're sick because you like stalking and kidnapping!" lmao

Babe,these are the reasons why I love Jk . Yes,he is insecure and violent but I wanna know why is he being like that. Is that a side effect of his jinx? What is the root caused of that insecurity? There is a manhwa " Kiss me liar" where Kieth the ml is insecure because he's a straight guy and was kissed by mc in the past. He was disgusted of it so much that he promised to himself that if ever he found that man he will never forgive him. And Kieth is also toxic. I guessed he is more toxic than jk.

Heesung also knew about jk's jinx. Maybe Heesung also knew the person behind his jinx.

I haven’t gotten to all those parts on my reread so my views on these things + what what they say about Jaekyung’s character might change, but I do remember some of what I thought about each of these things the first time around.

I’ll be fair and say that just because Jaekyung says or does one thing, doesn’t mean he necessarily means it wholeheartedly. And some of his actions, though they seem purely self-serving on the surface, can be viewed as being done out of genuine “kindness” and/or out of some underlying desire for Dan. Like I said, when I get there, I’ll get there. But when I think about Jaekyung paying of Dan’s debts, for example—first of all, I remember thinking that that scene was contrived. Like, rather than giving Jaekyung an organic reason to have appeared at Dan’s apartment right at that moment, the scene was specifically set up for the sake of making Jaekyung out to be more of this savior figure for Dan, kinder than he actually is. I could go into further detail about the idea that oh, it’s okay for Jaekyung to force Dan to have sex he doesn’t ultimately want, but these loan sharks…but whatever.

The thing that REALLY sticks out to me about that scene though is how Jaekyung, after paying Dan’s debt, says almost word for word “I just bought you with cold hard cash.” Now you really could read this in a couple ways—you can say that Jaekyung is just, I guess, being a little shit here but doesn’t actually think he owns Dan but just wants to get under his skin, or you can read it as him indeed believing he now owns Dan, or you can read it as him trying to emotionally manipulate Dan into feeling more indebted to him so that he’ll comply with him more. There’s a bit of a range here but…none of these options are great, are they? And like, what is more likely, based off of what else we know about Jaekyung? Either way, the point is—yes, he pays of Dan’s debts, which I’ll admit, he didn’t have to do. But it’s hard for me to look at the broader context of that moment and see it as “redeeming.”

This isn’t even to mention all the times Jaekyung blatantly ignores Dan’s wellbeing for the sake of his own pleasure…

Anyway, when I say Jaekyung suffers from rich people brainrot, I mean that he is deeply disconnected from the reality and humanity of people less wealthy than he is, and seems to like, have little to no sympathy or sensitivity with regards to it. In chapter 10, when he sees Dan’s apartment, he comments on how filthy it is, and how it reeks of poverty (“It reeks in here. The overpowering stench of poverty. You live like this? Isn’t it suffocating?”). He can’t understand why Dan gets upset at him when he asks Dan why he lives the way he does (“…What’s the problem? Am I wrong?”). I’ll give him points for seeming…curious, maybe, and for bringing Dan to his apartment that night, but LMFAOOO. It reminds me of that “It's One Banana, Michael. What Could It Cost, $10?” meme.

Look, as long as you recognize that Jaekyung does rape Dan at least once, and that their relationship is founded on an insane power dynamic and exploitation, then fine. Bon voyage. That is the specific subsection of readers I have beef with. If you don’t recognize those things I pointed out, or outright reject them as truths, then I’m concerned. Because yeah, actually, the way you interpret a story can say something about how you think about certain things in real life. If I look at a blatantly racist caricature of a black person, for example, and I don’t recognize that its racist—or worst yet, I agree with the depiction…you can see how that might just mean I have prejudice against black people. Right?

Like I get suspending your disbelief and all and talking about things relative to the context the story is actually taking place in. I know I oppose the death penalty and all that but I’ll still say a character just needs to die LMAO. But like, you know. If there was, hypothetically, some scene in an anime where an evil woman gets raped as like. Revenge or something, and one of your friends was like “haha, that bitch deserved it,” and then when you ask them what they meant by that/if they could expand on that thought/if they actually Mean that and they doubled-down saying something like “well no she doesn’t DESERVE it but she asked for it and you know, women never really take any responsibility for their actions, sometimes people need to be shown their place”…you’re telling me you wouldn’t be at least a liiiitle bit concerned?

I also like Jaekyung :) He's not my favourite character, but I find him likeable and funny at times. And I love that he's generous. I think his insecurities have to do with his past. We can guess that he's probably had a difficult childhood and teen years. Someone I spoke with before thinks that Jaekyung might have been bullied (such as by Junmin) and that's what motivated him to enter the MMA profession. I think that's an interesting possibility, which could have contributed to his insecurity and his need for control and overpowering some people. I say "some" because he never tries to overpower the coaches, who he seems to respect.
As for him being straight once or not, I don't know. Personally, I think he's gay, which he views as a weakness that must be kept secret at all costs. No one knows his sexuality, including the coaches. Also, if the MFC and the other fighters knew, it would probably negatively impact his career. Hiding the fact he likes men probably contributes to Jaekyung's stress and anxiety. Btw, that manhwa you mentioned sounds interesting!
That's an excellent point about Heesung also knowing about Jaekyung's jinx :) Another one who knows is the guy Jaekyung was having sex with when Dan first came over. I think others must know as well (that we don't know about until next season), and they may possibly use it to their advantage to manipulate Jaekyung. I find the jinx subject fascinating because it's still a mystery what it really is. I assume it's something psychological, but it could be something else entirely, especially since this is a fictional story.

You’re telling me that, if you were, hypothetically, having a discussion with someone about how just because you pay someone money to do something, it doesn’t negate the underlying ethical issues of what you’re asking them to do—like paying them to cut themselves or jump off from somewhere where they’ll very likely get hurt—and that person unironically began to defend child labor to you or, like, making disabled people do work they’re not able to do…you wouldn’t be at least a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiitle bit concerned?

Yes, I think Mingwa set up the scene of Jaekyung saving Dan from the loan sharks to make Jaekyung look like a saviour - but let's face it, he really WAS a saviour in that instance. I don't agree that it was to make him "kinder than he actually is." The reason is because I believe he has kindness in him, but he hides it under the persona he shows to everyone which is not necessarily his true self.
When he says "I just bought you with cold, hard cash," I think he means it. He likes the idea of "owning" Dan in a type of way that claims him as his. He helped Dan with genuine good intentions, imo, but he is also getting pretty obsessed with him (as we know by the million phone calls). Since Jaekyung is a toxic ml, he'll have the typical red flag characteristics, like possessiveness, jealousy, control, obsession, etc. The fact that Jaekyung saved Dan and paid his debt when he didn't have to do either, are redeeming factors imo.
I agree that he doesn't seem to understand the poverty that he witnessed at Dan's place. That alone is a very likely indication that he was raised in wealth. We can't judge him as having little to no sympathy for Dan's condition. After all, he could have just left Dan there after dumping him on the bed, but he didn't. The next day, when he asked Dan why he lives that way, I can't really criticize him for that. He was genuinely curious. Was it rude of him to ask the way he did? Of course. He could have handled the topic better. And like I said, I don't think he understands poverty because he never had to be subjected to it or witness it. So, I don't think he was being an asshole on purpose in this case.
It really shouldn't matter what I can recognize. You should ask yourself why you "have beef" with readers who don't care to recognize in fiction what you want them to recognize. I don't agree that the way I (or anyone else) interprets a story says something about how I think about things irl. That's not how it works in a fictional world that has as much substance as my dreams.
Your example on racism has nothing to do with this manhwa that is intended as entertainment for an adult audience. However, to answer your question, a caricature is not real. There are caricatures of lots of things, negative depictions against all races and the list goes on. If anyone likes them, it doesn't mean they like the subject in reality.

I'm not sure if this was a reply to me, but I'll say that you are overthinking this. You're mentioning hypothetical (not real) situations in response to a manhwa (also not real). The bottom line is this: it's just fiction (fantasy, imagination, dreams, etc.), which is NOT real. You can take any scenario and put it in fiction, and even if it's based on something that exists irl, it has now entered the realm of the imagination. There's nothing more to analyze about this concept. I don't mind discussing the plot of Jinx, but I'm not going to waste more time debating about what should and should not belong in an author's fictional work :)

Alright so let me clarify—you think it’s 100% perfectly okay for someone to portray a black person as being monkey-like in their story, without any nuance? To portray them as an inherently stupid, uneducated, violent, gangbanger, let’s say? To portray every single black character that appears in that one way? And you think that if someone reads that and comes away with a (deepened) impression that all black people must be inherently stupid, uneducated, and violent…that’s okay?

I’m not talking about laws and whether or not someone should be thrown in jail or whatever, just like, morally speaking. In terms of harm done. You think it is morally justifiable to portray a black person in this way? You think it does no harm? You think it’s okay if someone comes away from the story thinking of black people in this way?

Also someone did within these forums justify child labor to me. https://www.mangago.zone/home/mangatopic/17068741/?page=4

And someone who, in their own words, “doesn’t blame Jaekyung completely” for him raping Dan did tell a victim of rape that, for several reasons, their rape was their fault. https://www.mangago.zone/home/mangatopic/16888661/

These aren’t hypothetical situations :)

How did you get that I supposedly "think it's 100% okay..." from what I actually wrote, which is this:
"Your example on racism has nothing to do with this manhwa that is intended as entertainment for an adult audience. However, to answer your question, a caricature is not real. There are caricatures of lots of things, negative depictions against all races and the list goes on. If anyone likes them, it doesn't mean they like the subject in reality."
I suggest you stop making assumptions :) And btw, what's with the focus on black people? Caricatures involve ALL races and ethnicities, including political members, actors, etc. If you have a huge issue with it, you could try contacting the media that is publishing it and let them know your concerns.

As we both know, you were talking about hypothetical situations :) As for your links, I'm not going to read and judge someone else's comment(s) based on their views on a manhwa (fiction). As for people regarding real rape and real child labour in a positive light, that is their opinion, not mine. Do I personally think they are wrong? Yes, of course. If it's reality, then it's obviously harming real people. A fictional manhwa does not.

The point is that these people who are interpreting the webtoon in a certain way (“there is no rape depicted in this webtoon”) also hold other harmful opinions that directly correlate with their interpretations (“there is no rape in the webtoon because as long as you pay someone to do xyz, it’s fine, even if the action would be harmful and unethical otherwise—which is why child labor is okay” and “there is no rape in this webtoon because the fault for rape falls on both parties, and any real rapist would’ve ended up in jail—you’re at fault, too, real rape victim. you should’ve just chosen better”). I am not claiming that the webtoon is the thing at fault for people having these opinions—though I think that all art is capable of forming and deepening biases in people, which is why we talk so much about media representation so much—I am saying that people who are GENUINELY unable to recognize or outright deny when their media depicts something harmful or untrue, it is much more likely going to be the case that they cannot recognize that that thing is harmful and/or untrue in real life. As demonstrated in these examples.

Of course I know that there are a variety of caricatures and negative stereotypes that exist for all groups of marginalized people, it does not stop at race. I used black people and their common stereotypes as an example because I was thinking it’s something really obvious and recognizable, and it’s something that I am familiar with as an American and as a black person myself.

Obviously these stereotypes and caricatures are not real. But people call them out when they appear in media. Why? Because they can be HARMFUL. Because they play into already existing dominant narratives society tells people about these groups of people. Because it demeans and dehumanizes these groups of people both in their own eyes and in the eyes of people who don’t know any better and/or already hold these biases against these groups. Are they the SOLE ISSUE with regards to these issues like racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia? NO. But they DO play a role.

I don’t know if this has been your experience but I’ve certainly seen and heard of people’s minds about certain groups of people being changed because they watched a TV show or read a book or hell, read a fanfic that portrayed that group and their struggles with nuance and humanity. And I bet you those people who had their minds changed could go and see, say, a gay character who is 1-dimensionally stereotypically flamboyant and predatory towards young boys and be like whoa, hey. That’s kinda messed up.

That’s the point I’m making. Nothing exists in a pure vacuum.

Okay then answer my questions and clarify your stance. Are racist caricatures okay to depict or not? Is it okay and not harmful for someone to look at the caricature I described and think that it’s true to life, or not? You said it’s all fiction, it’s not real, things depicted in fiction cannot/do not hurt anyone in real life—that’s why I sought to clarify and why I used a more extreme example.

These were people talking about real situations…what are we talking about.

It shouldn't concern you, though. They are free to think what they want about fiction. If they allow toxic elements in fiction to influence their behaviours irl to the point where they harm others, then that is on them and they would need to deal with any legal consequences of that. As other commenters have pointed out, there is a warning about the toxic nature of this manhwa for potential adult readers to decide if the material is for them. If these adults with the ability to make their own decisions know something will likely trigger them and still go ahead and read it, then that is their problem. If a child goes ahead and reads it, then it's the caregiver's problem. Mingwa wrote this for an adult audience who enjoys reading toxic stories with a red flag ml. Anyone who has experienced something that is part of the manhwa, such as SA, needs to heed the warning before reading. If they decide to read it anyway without dropping it, they should not complain about the contents or the author or the fans for the harm that was caused.

As I mentioned before, you could try making a valid complaint to the media that is publishing this material. You have the right to call it out, of course, but that's not going to do anything. Lots of people like that sort of thing, so it would be very unlikely if caricatures ever stop. I personally don't care for them, but I don't let everything that exists in society that some find harmful affect me. If I don't like something, I stay the hell away. Especially something that is difficult to change, like what people find entertaining (e.g. caricatures, porn, books, movies, songs, art, etc.).

Akaito,I have a genuine but personal question if I may. Since you're a black American,have you experienced bullying because of your color from childhood until now? Because I can sense/feel from your comments/replies from jjnbv. No offense meant. And if it's too much of me,you don't have to answer my question.

It's not from but to. Your replies to...

Me, personally, no. Or at least nothing I have found personally significant enough to warrant my attention. I do routinely deal with homophobia and transphobia from my own family, though—I’m not out to them or anything but they constantly spout that type of rhetoric. And while their beliefs do not stem wholesale from media depictions of queer people—not that I know of, at least—they ARE influenced by how people in our media talk about these groups of people. Just the other day my sister was saying some shit about how bad it is that they’re trying to teach kids that queer and trans people exist…she got that rhetoric from hearing Donald Trump, amongst other figures, constantly portraying queer and trans people as pedophiles and groomers and shit.

You do know people are killed because of these things. Right? Like. Again I know this affects many groups of people, but just as one example. You do know that people repeatedly portraying black people, black men in particular, as hypersexual, hypermasculine, and violent…has played a role in them being killed. A lot. Like, lynched. And shot. And brutalized. Right? You don’t think that, as an author, I shouldn’t…try to be a bit responsible with my portrayal? You think that it’s okay for this type of thing to happen? You think I shouldn’t concern myself with people thinking all black men always inherently embody these horrible things? I shouldn’t call that out?

Like you think that black people being killed at least in part because of these portrayals…the solution for them is to just…not be affected by them? That will fix the issue? They should just ignore that these portrayals exist and not do anything at all about it? And that will make it so people stop acting racist towards them? And killing them?

Again, stop making assumptions. I'm not thinking what you say I'm thinking. Yes, the media has influenced people to harm others. However, an author has the right to create their own world. That's why toxic manhwas are only for adults who can handle the subject matter. They're not for children and they're not for those who will get triggered and be mentally and emotionally harmed by the story. From what I have read so far, I think you feel triggered by Jinx in some way. Since certain elements seem to bother you so much, you should consider why you are even reading it :)

I’m making assumptions because you’re not clearly and directly answering any questions I’ve asked you. I’m not talking about people who are mentally and emotionally harmed by a story because it deals with triggering subject matters. I’m not talking about a teen rape victim reading Jinx and being unable to cope with what they’re reading because it hits too close to home for them. I am talking about people like the adult police officers who refer to and treat young black boys as grown men because so much of society, including the media that that society produces, tells them that black people, regardless of age, are dangerous. I am talking about the minstrel shows where white people were (and still DO, to this day) smear black makeup on their skin and put on a “black accent” and “act black.” That used to be a very popular form of entertainment. I am once again asking you—is this morally justifiable to you? Why or why not?

Those subjects have nothing to do with this manhwa. You are trying to bring up all the problems in society, which is ridiculous because this isn't a sociology class. There's many problems in society which may or may not have been influenced by the media. What I said before about readers heeding the warning, especially those who feel they would be triggered by Jinx and thus experience mental or emotional harm, IS the important point. The other points you made are not applicable to this story at all. If you can't stay on topic, then there's nothing more to say.

You’re the one deviating from the topic because I was never talking about readers who experience mental and/or emotional harm from being triggered by the story! Obviously people should heed the warning label and not read things that are going to severely trigger them! There is nowhere where I said that that isn’t true and nowhere where I was even talking about that! You keep bringing it up when it was never what I was talking about to begin with!

These things DO have to do with the manhwa! I said I took issue with the specific subsection of people who read this manhwa and somehow come to the conclusion that there’s no rape in it because I think it can be (and has in some cases clearly proven to be) reflective of their real world attitudes towards consent/rape! Your argument against me was that things that appear in fiction cannot at all be harmful in real life, and that people’s opinions on what is being depicted cannot at all reflect their real life opinions on those things! My argument against that are the many examples in which both the media itself perpetuates harmful narratives against certain groups of people, and how those harmful narratives end up resulting in real world harm! Your argument against that now is “well people who are triggered by this content shouldn’t read it” YOU’RE the one going somewhere else entirely! Why can’t you just say that minstrelsy is bad, jjnbv?

The minstrel show or minstrelsy is a popular entertainment before,thanks to civil rights movement that it lost its popularity. This show is disrespectful, insulting and mocking black and black- American people. It viewed the American's perspective towards black people. Whites viewed blacks as slaves, buffoons and actually,no offense meant, it's better to be a rat at that time because they did not treat rats the way they treat the blacks . Why we have to be divided by colors? We are born this way, it's not like it's our fault for having this color. By the way, I'm a brown asian. Color is not a matter to me because we're all humans.

I'm killing myself, trying to explain this to him/her with my horrible english and at the end his/her only answers are : "u didn't answer my question" or "u didn't give me a straight argument". Once you say what u said jjjnbv, I don't think there's something else to add excep if you're playing with ppl's time like Akaito. Now I'm beginning to think Akaito has some serious essues. He/she has the time to write 7TEXTS and TEXTS I personally don't have time to read bc of his/her many deviating topics at the end I find myself debating about everything except this manhwa.

I cannot imagine comparing jinx with the minstrel show, because, first,the minstrel show was made to entertain whites while disrespecting, insulting and mocking blacks. Second,it was the view of real people towards real people. It's like me insulting and disrespecting my fellow reader. And lastly, there's no moral value or awareness because it's purely to entertain the whites while degrading the blacks.. Even if jinx shows toxicity at least it gives awareness and moral values. It only not entertain the readers but it also educates us that this events can be happened in real life if we 1.) have no choice,no one to rely on 2.) don't know the person that is helping us. 3.) don't value the people who are genuine to us ( Dan being genuine to jk ). 4.) if we treat people poorly they will leave us ( jk to his teammates). It also educates us that not only women can be SAed. Jinx is not portraying one particular group of people as well,it portrayed every individual who are with same status as Kim Dan.

Yeah the reason why we're going beyond this manhwa is because I do not care about this manhwa in and of itself. I am not triggered by it, I do not think it in and of itself perpetuates widespread societal harm, I do not think it shouldn't exist, I do not think most readers reading the manhwa are horrible and sick human beings just because they're reading it and find Jakeyung hot or whatever. I care about the bigger questions and conversations it raises, like "what is the definition of consent" or "what do wealthy people owe to society" or "does fiction reflect or impact reality," which is the one you guys specifically keep going. Because you keep going there, I then have to respond to that (the answer: it's more complicated than just "fiction exists in a pure vacuum and has nothing to say about reality" or "fiction directly reflects reality," it's a nuanced conversation) and I have to use other, more extreme examples because when I try to talk about Jinx by itself, you guys don't seem to get what I'm saying, and/or blatantly walk around the point I'm trying to get at. Maybe I haven't been explaining myself well enough, but when I'm going for these examples that seem periphery to the topic/conversation at hand, the point is that I am going to link it back to the conversation and/or the webtoon in some way. Goodness gracious.

And for the record your English isn't horrible and I don't think that we're having the misunderstandings we're having because of it. I can understand you just fine. It's simply that I heavily disagree with you a lot of the time.

If you don't care about this manhwa, I actually don't know why I'm talking to you then ^^' I want to talk about the characters, the story with sentences like "if he didn't /do that..." I don't question myself as you do because I don't read this to rack my brain about social problems or whatever... I don't know why, in 2024, we still ask this question of "does fiction impacts reality?"... This fiction is made for grown ppl that know the difference, it's like you're still saying that the music of Maryline Manson (that the killers were listening) caused the Colombine massacre...

I too would like to talk about the webtoon but alas, there are people who seem to be displaying flawed definitions of consent, and I find it important to address that kind of thing. Like I said you don’t have to read into the sociological problems that I think the webtoon is presenting if you don’t want to, but you can’t then say I’m wrong for pointing those things out. I think they’re interesting things to talk about alongside the characters and their motivations and stuff like that and like yeah, again, for me it’s hard to Not read those things into the story because they seem so foundational to its events and characters.

Like…would Dan have really ended up with someone like Jaekyung if he wasn’t so poor? Would Jaekyung be as abusive as he is if he didn’t have the wealth and status to get away with it? What would happen if you swapped their positions? Would Dan use his money and power to get revenge against all the people who’ve wrong him? Would he use people the way Jaekyung does? Or would Dan just keep to spending his money to make himself and his grandma happy and comfortable? And Jaekyung—would he be able to stand Dan’s living conditions? Would he make the same choices? Would he do something different? Etc etc.

Anyway yeah, fiction doesn’t have a one to one relationship with reality—the way it interacts with reality is complex! I’m someone who loves video games, I know all about the “violent video games make people violent” moral panic, I am absolutely not delusional enough to think “violent video games make people go kill people in real life.” But the fact is that fiction can and does reflect reality in some way. It can challenge reality, it can comment on that reality, or it can reiterate that reality. And everyone comes to stories with their own background knowledge and beliefs and biases and shit.

Yes YOU may have a strong understanding of consent, for example, and you may be able to see one or multiple bad portrayals of consent/varying portrayals of nonconsent and not have your mind changed. But there are people—not just kids or teens, but also full grown adults, obviously—who don’t have that strong a grasp on those things, who were never taught the right things, who believe the wrong things. When THOSE people then interact with something that portrays nonconsent as being consensual when it really isn’t—THOSE people might then come away from it thinking that that’s how consent is supposed to work, because they literally do not have any other model to work from. Or they might already have a bad model and this other bad model might only serve to confirm the bad model that they already have.

There are so many examples of this kind of thing happening in real life! Grown adults! Not just teens or children! Who were fed narratives about certain things all throughout their lives and came to believe those narratives, even though they weren’t true, because they didn’t know any better, they didn’t have any exposure to the truth. Again going back to the race/racism example, you will hear lots of stories about straight up KKK members who, because they had like, no exposure to black people whatsoever outside of things their racist families and racist neighbors and racist MEDIA said about black people, end up adopting those same views. It’s multifaceted and I’m not here to act like it isn’t.

But those people’s minds changed/could be changed in a variety of different ways. Often times it’s through getting to know/interacting with a black person and realizing, hey, this person is chill. Maybe what I thought was wrong all along. But sometimes it IS engaging with art or media in general that portrays black people in a more humanizing and nuanced light.

Domosama, I just want to thank you for taking me at face value. I genuinely appreciate that you're willing to engage directly with what I'm saying.

jjnbv and Shiki and the like have been making the argument that fiction cannot impact reality at all, and that people's reactions to that fiction cannot ever reflect their real life views on the real life things that the fiction might be portraying. In discussing minstrel shows, which was a form of fiction/entertainment/media (theater, specifically), my point was to show that fiction and entertainment CAN impact reality, and that people's reactions to that fiction and entertainment CAN reflect their real life views. You've correctly pointed out how harmful minstrel shows are in what they portray, and how the people who created those shows and portrayed black people in them reflects what they actually thought of black people at the time. You also brought up how the shows lost popularity due to the civil rights movement—this was because as people gradually came to realize that black people are, in fact, people, and that the shows were saying things that they no longer believed + things that were harmful to perceptions of black people, people stopped watching them as much.

So I'm sure we can agree that people creating minstrel shows were probably very racist, and it's unlikely that they were actually secretly trying to critique harmful portrayals of black people. I'm sure we can also agree that, while people are free to create whatever fiction/entertainment they want, creating something like a minstrel show, even if it's a completely fictional portrayal of a black person, isn't great, and it’s generally be better if it didn’t happen. It may not be illegal, it may not be the case that the person making it should go to jail for it, but it doesn't mean that they're doing something that is completely neutral when they do that. We can, and should, critique them for creating it—and if not the person themselves, we absolutely can and should critique and contextualize what the work itself suggests.

I will add the things I am saying with regards to audience interpretation as well. I am sure you and I today could watch a minstrel show and recognize and acknowledge that it's horrifically racist. And I'll be honest—I might even laugh at it, not because I think it's genuinely funny or because it makes me happy, necessarily, but because I'd find it so ridiculous and horrible that I have no choice but to laugh, or it circles back around to being funny. There might even be elements of those shows we genuinely like, like. Idk. Maybe one of the performers is a really strong vocalist. These are not something to be concerned about. Our watching of the minstrel show indeed does not automatically make us racist.

What WOULD be concerning is if someone watched the minstrel show...and came away from it thinking that it was true to life. If they watched it and thought "yes, that really is how black people are,” that would obviously be concerning, right? There are really only three options there—that person is joking, that person has never interacted with a black person before and/or hasn’t seen any other representations of black people before and therefore doesn’t know any better, or that person is blatantly racist. Two of these are worrying! And yes, we can wish the minstrel show just didn’t exist, period, but the fact is that it already exists—fine. But it would be responsible for us to point out how and why the show isn’t good, because, yes, as it turns out, there are people who WOULD watch that kind of thing and not immediately understand those things.

So what does this have to do with Jinx? Well, again, as I’ve been saying, I am concerned with a specific subsection of fans who come at the webtoon and outright deny there is rape depicted in it. Not just a surface level thing—but like when you ask them WHY they think there’s no rape, their reasoning demonstrates a flawed understanding of consent, even as they factor in (or outright ignore) things that happen in the webtoon. They will try to go by the definition of rape, they will bring up the contract, or they will bring up the “no means yes” trope in yaoi (and romance in general, which I’m willing to have a conversation about, with some caveats). They will often use the very same victim-blaming rhetoric that people use against real life victims of rape.

I do not think Jinx in and of itself is the issue here, although there are discussions to be had about how things are framed…but similarly to the minstrel example, there’s only a few possible options for how that person is really thinking. Either they are joking around/speaking lightly of it when they otherwise wouldn’t, or they do not know any better, or they are a blatant rape apologist. And personally I tend to elect for the first two options rather than the latter…hence why I tend to ask people to give me their definition of consent (or provide them my own), and then ask how they’re reading the manhwa to have not seen that definition being violated.

I care about these types of things because I simply care about people. I want people to be able to recognize these types of situations for what they are. I want them to be able to keep themselves safe. I want them, if they’re unfortunate enough to go through something like this, to not blame themselves for what happened, and to not listen to the people that WOULD blame them for what happened. And of course I don’t want them to approach someone else who’s gone through something like this to say or do something that would be harmful to them. That’s really all.

(PS sorry for the long responses, I’m really trying to make myself clear and avoid any misunderstandings…)

I get you babe,when we were still children we dreamt on becoming superheroes like superman,spiderman,etc..or we dreamt to be a princess like Cinderella, sleeping beauty and snow white. Those are our childhood dreams because of the fictional characters we've seen on t.v or the big screen or in socmed. Anime's like Haikyu encourages us to play volleyball. So somehow,I can say that fictions also plays a role or impact in our lives. Sometimes it serves as inspirations and motivations. Depends on how we see and understand it. I saw a documentation in America where a child killed his playmate because he saw something like that on t.v. You see,if we let something to our minds it will affect our lives.


And about the consent, actually I think I gave a hint about this in one of my previous replies ( legally). I googled it since to be fair by law.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_consent_in_law#

There are many definitions of consent but I googled sexual consent since it's about this topic. Maybe we have different perspective about consent since we're living in different countries. Mostly in Asia there's an age limit,if you happen to involve your self in a sexual act with a woman below the age limit you can be sued for statutory rape. They are still minors who are incapable of giving consent. Adults,if they are mentally deprived ( those with mental problems),drunk or was drugged.

Maybe we have different understanding and perspective because our laws are not different but yours are some kind of broaden(?), correct me if I'm wrong. I can see a lot of comments like " why do Koreans romanticize the act of rape", " Why this kind of thing is always in my fave manhwa". Be it in bl or straight. Asians will see it as adults playing that scene and nothing else since the involves are two adults. As long as no force or threat was shown. If the other one is minor then I promise you that all will react. Maybe the reason why Asians will say "do not read this if you're uncomfortable" is because of that.


I'm sorry if my comments offended you in some aspects. I assure you that I understand what you want to say,your message. I'm also happy to share my thoughts with you

I don't really think you're getting what I'm saying with regards to fiction or media more broadly impacting people. It's not limited to just kids. We talk all the time about full grown adults who get scammed by emails and phone calls because they think it's real and they don't know better, for example. I can talk about the queerphobia and transphobia that exists in American media right now and how, even though people are spreading falsehoods, people are buying into those lies—those fictions—and it's leading them into being (more) homophobic and (more) transphobic. But I'm frankly tired of explaining this. I just hope you don't think you've become magically immune to believing misinformation just because you're an adult...

I mean personally I was not/haven't been talking about the legal definition of rape/consent and whether or not Jaekyung could/should go to jail. And I'm sure it's the case over there as well as over here that there are tons of cases of people who do not go to jail despite having committed what many people would fully consider to be rape, and that happens for a variety of reason.

But I'm curious. Are you saying people wouldn't consider it rape between two adults if one of the adults says no to sex and the other person forces them to do it anyway?

Your English is fine, I especially loved that one comment you made above that I noted and replied to :) I agree there's nothing for me to add to Akaito's reply because, once again, the comment went off-topic and I'm not wasting my time with that. From what I've read, you and me and others can try to explain forever and Akaito will not understand the actual point we are making when it comes to this manhwa, or will make incorrect assumptions about what we are saying/meaning. It's very apparent that this reader has issues with separating fiction from reality.

Good morning Akaito. About what's happening in America I'm sorry for that but like I said I am an Asian. In my country it's okay to be what you are if you're a trans,queer,brown,white or black. I thought the fiction we're talking is the same but I guess that yours is kinda deep. Fictions is literature in the form of prose that describes imaginary events and people. We start imagining when we were young to be like super heroes or princesses,and then when we became adults it depends on us on how we understand and see things. It depends on our perspective.

And about consent,I don't want to give false definition of it. Like what you said,you are tired of people giving you false definitions. It will only lead to misunderstanding and argumentation. It's better to ask what is the right definition of it. And about your question, it's not my personal opinion. Even if you research the jurisdiction and laws of Asian countries,you will search about age of consent and statutory rape,and the terms for adults. Like I said,and is obvious in the link I sent,SEX WITH FORCE AND THREAT is considered rape. You need to contest the force and/or threat to call it rape. Aside from force and threat, deception is also considerable,but you need to clarify clearly how you were deceived.

You will find not search( sorry).

I mean there’s many types of fiction and they all aim to do varying different things—I am using a broad definition of it (as in not just literature but also TV shows, movies, games, etc, but also any other type of media that is ultimately fictitious, as in, imaginary in nature, hence why I also loop in things like articles and news reports even though those might operate differently than a book lol). Jinx is clearly doing something different than, say, pieces of post-colonial literature like Things Fall Apart or Augustown (both really good books) but in both cases yeah you can read and analyze them from a variety of different lenses. And I agree, people will interpret things based on their own perspectives, and a wide variety of things can influence that perspective.

Also my bad I think I misread your original comment lmao it seemed like you were saying that as long as it’s two adults it’s always seen as being consensual or rape wouldn’t/couldn’t be tried but yes you did talk about force/incapacitation/deception. I mean then I’m curious what you think about that question of whether or not there’s any rape depicted in the webtoon. Also since those other guys seem to have disengaged for now, what do you think about these questions about how/why Dan and Jaekyung act the way they do based on their economic classes + would they act differently if their roles were switched.

Good afternoon Akaito,I just wanna clarify my words in my previous comment. I NEVER SAID that as long as it's two adults it's always seen as being consentual or rape wouldn't/couldn't tried. WHAT I SAID IS "Maybe we have different understanding and perspective because our laws are not different but yours are some kind of broaden(?), correct me if I'm wrong. I can see a lot of comments like " why do Koreans romanticize the act of rape", " Why this kind of thing is always in my fave manhwa". Be it in bl or straight. ASIANS WILL SEE IT AS ADULTS PLAYING THAT SCENE AND NOTHING ELSE SINCE THE INVOLVES ARE TWO ADULTS. AS LONG AS NO FORCE OR THREAT WAS SHOWN.a


Adults can also deemed incapable of consenting,such as being unconscious, intoxicated, drugged, mentally and physically disabled. I think I also added this in my previous comments. In my previous comments,I also said that let's review Dan's capability and incapability when he agreed to jk. Is Dan a minor, mentally and physically disabled, unconscious, intoxicated,and/or drugged?.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_consent_in_law#


If jk did not involved himself with Dan,would Dan's life more peaceful and happy? Would opportunity like what jk gave him come to him if jk did not involved himself with him? Dan suffered from extreme poverty, desperation, stressed and depression. He was almost raped by a hospital director and lost his opportunity to work in the hospital. The director wasn't even punished as he said. The loan sharks were there always to bully and beat him? Milking him money every month. His grandma was in the hospital.

How Dan would survive all these without jk's help? Dan even asked himself if he have to be choosy right now. If you were Dan would you make the same decision as him and go to jk? Or would you still choose to live the same way and face those loan sharks everyday while being beaten by them? If you were Dan how would you survive that situation he's in without jk in the picture? Do you think those loan sharks is not after Dan's body? What happened when jk witnessed Dan's situation when he went to Dan's house and saw the loan sharks there? Is Dan's life with jk is more miserable than when he was in the streets doing 3-4 jobs?

No need to clarify, like I said, I misread.

That said, before we continue the conversation, do you think I’m just a troll? Because I won’t continue to engage if so. I’ve been genuine this whole time but if I’m not being received as such then there’s no need to continue.

Good morning Akaito,I need to clarify because I don't want to be misunderstood. Thank goodness if you misread,I thought you misunderstood me. Well,do you happen to read my Convo with jjnbv in this comsec? Personally or tbh,I don't know what you comment or replied to other commenters about this manhwa in the comsec here,aside from this one particular discussion. Haters love to hate even without particular or reasonable reasons,just for their pleasure, bullying,and/or out of boredom. So we came to a conclusion that these haters were trolls who love to ruin the mood of readers,put virus in the comsec, recruit others to join them and just want to start an argument. Iirc,you said that you were a critique and not a hater of this manhwa. Or am I wrong? I am also genuinely replying to you all this time. I even said that I'm happy sharing my thoughts with you. Maybe we have differences because we came from different environment, different nationality,culture and tradition. Since, we're on the topic about trolls,I want to ask you what is your opinion about them?

Yeah, I have my criticisms, but I don’t hate it. I mean, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to separate my feelings towards the webtoon itself from the way that discussions of it have gone, but that’s something different. As I was rereading it there are even a few things I feel like I didn’t notice before that I can appreciate. I’ll always give credit where I think it’s due, even if ultimately begrudgingly, or with many caveats, lol.

As for trolls, I don’t really care for them. If someone trolls me, I’ll troll them right back. I don’t know how many people in these comments can actually be classified as pure trolls or pure haters, though, even if I ultimately disagree (or agree) with their criticisms (or lack thereof). And I find it ultimately reductive to reduce people’s critiques down to just being haters for the sake of it, or to band every single one of them together. I’d rather parse these things out so that I can address them properly.

For example, someone who hates the webtoon and goes out of their way to bash others for reading it just because they’ve heard things about the webtoon, but haven’t actually read the webtoon themselves, is different from someone who has read through the webtoon and has come to hate it because they think it’s wrong to depict rape/nonconsent in a story (or to depict rape/nonconsent in a sexualized manner). These are both people I disagree with but for different reasons; the first just…pisses me off on principle because with something like a story, I think it’s dumb to critique it without having experienced it first + you have absolutely nothing to actually say about the story. I like things to be accurate. Whereas with the second person, well—I think the question of how things “should” be depicted is a complicated one, but it isn’t wrong on principle to depict something like rape/nonconsent. That’s someone I feel like I could have a conversation with.

where did u read the raws?

Zinchanmanga.com. The translation is not great tho. You can read the novel too

ur my life savior bro thanks