This story is way too complex for peas. There’s more to it than who hurts who, who’s the bad guy and who’s the good guy. I don’t think we should label the cliche “red”, “black”, “green”, “yellow” flags. Everyone thought Jo was a good guy and some were already threatened by his presence since they biased another hottie.
All over Twitter I see both stans of Jo and TJ being petty with each other. I don’t give a shit but don’t go and slut shame Ian because he’s not exclusive to your favorite hottie. He doesn’t belong to any of them.
Isn’t life so poetic with all these people war-guing with each other. Jo isn’t a “good guy”, he’s now in a position where he needs character development, especially after that SA and some form of manipulation (the scene with then injured fingers). But he isn’t evil. Nor is any of the other main characters.
TJ and Ian already have some character development to do. They’re pretty much the same since a decade ago, but their surroundings and time has moved, only the two of them can move forward together. It can’t be separate, they are entwined with each other no matter how much others wanna deny. They’re family, they’ve only had each other so naturally they’d be like this.
Oh no! They’re toxic, what ever shall I do? Calm down, we have some more seasons after this. Jo has a chance, but I really doubt it would be the same amount of love (be it platonic or romantic) Ian has for TJ. I just hope the author doesn’t use Jo as a catalyst, it would be sad that Ian and TJ only finally get together because of Jo. Lazy writing in my opinion!
And those stupid little shits can get off my DMs!
when did all the stuff with Jo happen? I'm confused
I believe CH54 or 52 (SA) and in raws (injured finger)
idk abt the injured finger thing but jo didn't sa ian, ian asked jo to kiss and things just went from there from what i read
No, he continued to thrust despite Ian passing out and came on his face while he was passed out.
There has to be a good reason for why TJ put Ian in jail. It could be that the intention was from a good place, but it was perceived as negative. For people to say TJ doesn't deserve Ian because of all these red flag actions, that's a very superficial view of their dynamic, and relationships in general. I also get what you mean but it does look like Jo is the catalyst of something in Ian. I want Ian to organically choose TJ, but he is too stubborn without some kind of outside push. I'm an older reader, so Ian's character seems a bit selfish imo. We have TJ willing to make the difficult decisions and take responsibilities for better or for worse. While Ian does what he wants, not really caring about the repercussions because he knows TJ will take of everything, and still string him along with sex once in a blue moon.
Someone explained to me that TJ put him there because that’s a pretty good deal of years for murdering someone. And they aren’t wrong…2 years for murder is pretty lenient. Apparently the lawyers stated that it would be hard on trial to defend Ian, so it was a win or lose situation. But that they could try.
I feel like every character here is at least selfish in one way or another. TJ is making some decisions himself, thinking this is good protection for Ian, Ian wants him to stay but then he had run off prior to this. And TJ got him back (I don’t phrase words well).
he pulled out and finished himself off.
plus just in my opinion i don't really think that is automatically classified as SA because it's not like the sex was initiated while ian was asleep, also they're characters we don't really know the boundaries within their relationships, this may be something that ian doesn't really mind there's many couples where partners don't mind their partners doing stuff while they're asleep etc. again this is just my opinion, i can see where you're coming from, i just don't think this makes jo equivalent to tj, none of the people in the story are good people really bc that's not humanly possible. also i'm not team jo or team tj i really don't care who ian ends up with i just like the story but this is js what i thought
I thought Ian said to stop?
Ian never said stop. He said there's nothing else coming out, as in no more semen, he's dried out. Plus I doubt Ian bothered by it because Ian mention before with tj to go even after he passes out, of course the situations are apart but it implies Ian doesn't mind and would possibly be find with it. It's not actual SA but could go with a more dubious act since it started consensual and Ian never said or implied for Jo to stop. With the finger thing, to me that's not manipulation.
So everyone is spreading misinfo? All over Twitter there are people claiming he SA’ed and even in mangago comments section.
^
like the other person said it's less SA and more of a dubious consent situation. the sex was initiated consensually and ian just passed out, then jo finished himself off.
Yes. And the answer is simply because they don't like him as he get in the way of their ship and they twist part of the story to fit in their narrative. This is why it's important to read the story without a bias and come up with your own opinion. Also have pay attention because many things in previous chapters correlate to upcoming chapters. Many things in S1 are brought up in S2 and imply situations, that's why many readers are confused sometimes.
One of the reasons why I feel these 3 ending up together would be great!!yes.....I meant the three of them.Those 3 deserves each other for them to heal and sustain...and I'm adding jo cus he brings clarity to others and vise versa.
That's not true... But chapter 52 is right there if anyone wants to check. Ian clearly didn't want to continue, he looked distressed, he tried to redirect Jo's attention to the camera, he said he doesn't have anything left, called Jo by his full name. Then he started slumping and staggering but Jo held him up and continued thrusting and talking. When Ian didn't answer, Jo noticed that he's passed out. He continued thrusting, he's inside and holding Ian's hips. You can literally count the thrusts. Then there's a panel of their legs when Jo moves up to finish himself off on Ian's face.
"with tj to go even after he passes out" it was "'til", UNTIL he passes out, not after. And permission to TJ isn't permission to Jo. And even if Ian wouldn't mind, Jo has no reason to think that.
Also he took the chance to come on Ian's face. In their first scene he asked for that repeatedly. So he knows it's something he should be asking about. He never received the permission. But now he did that without asking when Ian can't even answer. He took the chance to do whatever he wants and fulfil his fantasy when Ian can't say "no".
Sex with a person who's passed out is literally SA by law. And yeah some couples like that, it's a kink. But it's something that has to be established before the situation takes place. Kinks like that aren't something you just do without the other person's agreement. "Ian never said or implied for Jo to stop" as I said before, he did imply to stop and then he passed out, he can't retract his consent when he's unconscious. That's why it's SA, Ian never agreed to it and as it happens he can't make decisions because he's incapacitated. How was he supposed to say anything when he's unaware that it's happening...
atp you're talking to yourself. i never said that ian didn't tell jo to stop so you shouldn't quote things like i said them if you're tryna make an argument. all i said is that i see this as more of a dubious act than an SA and I don't think it should be compared to the stuff that TJ has done to ian. im not trying to defend jo or side with jo honestly im more of a fan of TJ and im not saying it's a good thing either. i just think the two shouldn't be compared because it's apparent to me atleast that jo's actions don't have malicious intent and he manipulates ian in a way because he doesn't want him to leave him, TJ manipulates ian because he knows ian will always come back like during christmas when he found out that ian would be with jo and so they faked the car crash or wtv (its been awhile since ive read the ep)
my overall point was that I think jo just got carried away and I don't think it should be compared to the times that TJ has also SAd ian or let him be SAd.
^^ you can also see the difference in the selflessness that jo has toward ian in which he makes everything about ian while on the other hand tj is on the more selfish side.
sorry for all the replies but lastly, im not defending anything or being a rape apologist at all, and im not saying that any instances of implied SA are good because it's not. but i js think in this situation not everything is so black and white, there's misunderstandings and mistakes etc.
I didn't want to make even more responses and it notifies everyone in the conversation, my responses were to both you and Plumy. That's a quote from Plumy's reply.
Yeah and I explained why I think it's SA and not just dubious. If he continued after Ian tried to tell him they should stop, that could probably be taken as dubious, we could say that Jo didn't understand. But the moment Ian passes out, that should be a clear sign for him. But instead he took advantage of it. And it's not a consensual kink kind of situation. If it was why wouldn't he admit to it the morning after? Why would he say that Ian fell asleep while clearly making the difference between falling asleep and falling unconscious in his thoughts?
I purposefully only answered the chapter 52 scene parts of your replies since I felt like it's spreading misinformation. But let's get into the other stuff now then.
When did TJ ever manipulate Ian? The car crash wasn't manipulated, it was orchestrated by Jamie. There was never any indication of this being faked. TJ was literally glad that it was him in the car and not Ian. Ian knows about everything TJ did.
Jo's manipulation doesn't have malicious intent? If you say he manipulates Ian because he doesn't want him to leave... That might not be malicious but it's not a pure reason either. Jo "knows what he wants", he wants Ian and he's determined to make that happen. Of course he believes that's a good thing for Ian, I feel like that's why a lot of readers take his side, Jo believes that and makes you believe that too. But Jo's selfish and possessive. He barely knows Ian but has an image of him in his mind, loves the idea of Ian being a good person that was in a bad environment that he can 'fix'. It's like he has some savior complex. He always acts like he's the one that would 'rescue' Ian (he's 'good' for Ian, fixes his light, prevents Ian from meeting TJ 'the bad guy', Ian doesn't have to sleep around because Jo 'will always come', pretends to be his boyfriend so the other guy would fuck off (I liked that one, but it does show the pattern and Ian could handle it on his own)), he's attracted by his vulnerability (like when Ian told him about the murder), he dictates how Ian should change to 'improve' his life (by hanging out with him and not sleeping around).
When did TJ SA Ian? But since I probably know which scenes might be misinterpreted that way, the better question is when did TJ LET IAN BE SAED?? He's literally the one trying to prevent that. He would never let Ian be SAed if he could help it. He was the one to try and get Ian clean, he was the one picking him up from David and saying that David will never see Ian again.
"you can also see the difference in the selflessness that jo has toward ian in which he makes everything about ian while on the other hand tj is on the more selfish side." I'd say it's... the other way round actually.
Everything Jo does is about himself pretty much, like I already explained with the saviour complex. "Ian: There are people who live like that. Jo: Not me." why did he insert himself in the situation, in a discussion about Ian. He pushed his own lifestyle onto Ian. "The Ian I've seen is gentle and kind. And people like that need to be around good people" - he meant himself, that Ian should be around him. When Ian tried to cut contact, Jo went "It ends just like that 'cuz you said so?". Would someone who puts Ian's wishes before his own say that? Wouldn't he let Ian make this decision? Jo didn't want to end the relationship so Ian can't decide to end it. Jo meddled into TJIan's relationship that he knows nothing about, disregarding Ian's frantic state and "Sorry, I'm in a bit of a rush-" because he was determined not to let them meet. "I'm not going to avoid anything", is him trying to assure Ian but the way he worded it is about himself, not Ian. Jo obsessed about what Ian was doing and with whom when he didn't come to the dinner. And what did he do? Avoid the subject because he didn't want to be pushed away and he didn't want an answer that he won't like. Jo was the one constantly having dreams about Ian and TJ fucking, even tho he never even got the confirmation that they do. From that whole scene we can conclude that he wasn't worried about Ian's safety, he was anxious that Ian was with TJ. He was angry at himself that he couldn't do anything in those dreams. And Ian isn't in danger in those dreams, he's just with someone else. It wasn't not about Ian's wellbeing, it was about Jo being jealous. "I've never realized how exhausting being jealous is". He also decided not to tell Ian that TJ apologized to him. And when he finally told Ian and Ian's reaction wasn't what he wanted (Ian didn't condemn TJ, he said "We're just so used to taking care of things that way...") he changed the subject instantly ("Huh, the reaction I was looking for was something more..."). He only told Ian this because he wanted to get a specific reaction, not because Ian deserved to know. It was for his own sake. "Don't dismiss that consideration of his" - that's when Jo decided that he wants Ian for himself, basically using TJ's current decision to leave Ian out of the gang stuff to make sure Ian won't go looking for TJ because he's possessive, which he admitted in his internal monologue in that same scene. It's not genuine advice that's supposed to keep Ian happy, it's advice that gets Jo what he wants. Even Jo himself admitted that the advice wasn't because of his kindness. When Ian said he can't sleep and can't take sleeping pills, Jo got angry and said "I don't believe you" because he didn't like that Ian sleeps with other people, he disregarded Ian's problem because he didn't like the way Ian went about it. Even when Jo promised Ian he won't leave him, he left because his pride got hurt. Ian was in a bad spot and Jo left him alone because he couldn't handle not being the centre of attention. Chapters 51/52 also portray that well. "You're so good, sometimes it makes me angry". "This is amazing", he's got carried off, so focused on his own pleasure that he disregarded Ian's protests and the fact that Ian was already staggering and unresponsive. And he went on about himself, "Don't do this with anyone else. Only do it with me from now on-". In the sex scenes he did whatever he wanted and manhandled Ian just as much as TJ does if not more. And he did it more and more, by chapter 52 he said "It was hard holding back all this time". I could go scene by scene to point out those moments but the easiest example to notice is the theme of condoms in their smut. Jo never got enthusiastic consent for coming inside like TJ did, the first time he abided by Ian's decision to stop by the time they have no condoms, the second time he conveniently forgot and only remembered when he already came, the last time he only told Ian "Did you know we're all out of condoms?"
While we can see that TJ was by Ian's side through thick and thin. He was there when Ian was an active addict and everyone else left. He didn't take advantage of Ian's state at the time, just continued taking care of him without complaining while Ian was lying and riling him up. He showed up when Ian was unconscious in David's bathroom and got him safely home. He threw away his career to get them into the gang together and tried to make it seem like his career wasn't a big deal so that Ian wouldn't feel guilty (didn't work, but he did try). All that time he never made it about himself even though it was hard on him too. When he was scared and ordered Ian to be unable to leave for Malibu (reminder that Ian was never supposed to fall and break his leg) he was distraught and tried to apologize. Ian didn't want him to apologize so he didn't. He wasn't the one to use the excuse of his fear and make the situation about himself, Ian did ("You were afraid I might die"). Ian used the situation to relieve some of his own guilt. When Ian got desensitized to violence and caught TJ told the lawyers to get him only two years in prison (2nd degree murder is 15-25 years and as the lawyers said, it would be hard to argue self-defence since Ian was too methodical, which means there was intent to kill) in which Ian could resocialize and learn clean work, while he personally dealt with the people who wanted to harm Ian. He built a mansion in California that has space for Ian's hobby. When Ian said he doesn't want to have sex, TJ put physical distance between them and changed the subject. When Ian decided to cut contact with TJ, TJ walked away. Sure, they argued but in the end TJ left. When TJ cooled off he returned because he knew Ian didn't actually want it and he was right about that. When he saw Ian with Jo, he left without a fuss again. He didn't contact Ian again, respecting the decision. When the car crash happened, the first thing TJ felt was relief that the assassination attempt was directed at him and not Ian. He told Ian to stay away from the gang because he saw Ian slipping into his old cold-blooded self. Would he rather have Ian's company? Probably. But he wants Ian to be safe and not slip further into his desensitized state more. And in the smut scenes he often checked on Ian verbally, making sure that he wants to continue or that he's feeling good. TJ is selfish sometimes but overall I'd say he thinks about Ian more than anyone else, and often more than he thinks about himself.
not reading this sorry, it's rlly not that serious
Welp, it is long. But I guess now I know why you're spreading misinfo... So to correct at least the most obvious and clear ones: TJ did not fake the car crash and he didn't 'let Ian get SAed'
well like i said i hadn't read the chapter in a while about the car crash. and second literally in the most recent chapter tj literally went to go pick up ian after he was drugged and assaulted and he knew he was there and did nothing to stop it except for locking him in a room instead of trying to get him actual help. my overall point isn't to pick at TJ or jo or anyone which i think ur misunderstanding and i'm not trying to spread misinformation either, my opinion on chapter 52 is my opinion and i respect your opinion aswell, nobody is a saint in this story and i'm done arguing bc it's rlly not that srs yall js don't touch grass
nobody is going to die just because i have a certain opinion on something, it's not "spreading misinformation" it's called interpretation. these are also fictional characters
There is interpretation and there's stating things that contradict source material as facts. "he pulled out and finished himself off" and the "with tj to go even after he passes out" and "Ian never said or implied for Jo to stop" that you agreed with were simply false, that's what I labeled as misinformation. And so were "he found out that ian would be with jo and so they faked the car crash" and "let him be SAd". It's not a problem of different interpretation when it's clear in the webtoon. That's the parts I pointed out as misinformation and provided context for. The rest is interpretation, me responding to your opinions and asking questions, just discussion. I know you're just commenting but op literally asked "So everyone is spreading misinfo?" and you replied "jo finished himself off" which implies that he pulled out when Ian passed out which is misinfo, someone is just gonna repeat all that like it's fact again and another person is going to be confused.
"Let" implies that he allowed it to happen without doing anything to stop or prevent it. And he did. He tried to get him clean, he locked him up like you said yourself. Ian wanted to go to rehab because of TJ, that's actual help. And it's clear from that scene that he knew it's something TJ wanted. How would TJ know where Ian was? There's 0 indication that he knew. When David called TJ and told him where Ian was, TJ came. And then he confronted David and joined the gang to stop this. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to force an addict to get clean.
I only started sharing my more in-depth interpretation of the characters' once you replied to me with your opinion on them. The part where I analyze their behaviour is obviously my reading of it (literally included phrases like "let's get into the other (not misinformation about chapter 52) stuff now then", "I think...", "I'd say..."). If you didn't want me to respond with my opinion then you didn't have to start that topic. I just commented on sth you said with how I see it.
girl i rlly dgaf anymore u keep putting words in my mouth based on what other ppl said and u are just way to srs abt this, goodbye
I'm just checking back on my notifications. I need to ask, what manipulation thing are you talking about Jo finger injury?
Don’t take my words too seriously cause I also kinda forgot. It’s in the raws I believe, TJ Stan’s were saying that Jo was being somewhat manipulative by showing his hurt fingers (I forgot if he did that on purpose or not)
They meant chapter 53. It's not explicit, it's an interpretation. Probably also depends on if him not having it in chapter 30 for a moment is a mistake or not (idk if it was already in the physical ver or not). If it's not it would imply he bandaged it again after he noticed Ian worrying about it. And I think he never told Ian that they didn't break the fingers on purpose? I'm not sure about that tho.
No I meant if Jo broke his fingers or injured it on purpose, or it was an accident and he just showed it to Ian. If he bandaged it because of Ian worrying over it and not because his fingers needed it, that’s somewhat manipulative I guess(?) or really more of attention seeking/gaining sympathy, idk. Cause while manipulation and attention seeking is similar, they aren’t the same.
Yeah not too sure eitherZ
He injured himself by accident when Yangji (TJ's right hand man) wanted to scare him. They were fighting and Jo fell on his fingers.
Yeah, he didn't need it anymore but bandaged it anyways. I mean... I'd say that purposefully seeking sympathy to get attention is manipulative, but that's how I see it (well, and others that said it was manipulative). And to be clear, there was no internal monologue where Jo would explicitly state "I'm doing this to gain sympathy", so that's interpretation.
@ayfct I see, ok thatbwould make sense but even after 30 & 32 (the scene with 53) he hasn't used it to expoilt nor was he wearing it after it. So it's a bit of a stretch since in his monologe he says it feels fine bit maybe should leave the bangage on. Mmm Looking back at it after he does think that he remembers Ian saying to have dinner at his (Ian) place and then Jo starts wrapping his finger. It still fails because he doesn't even wear it afterwards.
@Chickenbutt it's not manipulation though maybe wanting sympathy points? Since even kids like to do that but its not manipulation i keep seeing ppl say. Plus Ian was told Jo was in the hospital by Chris and Alex is the one that told him what happen when Jo said it was nothing. Did you forget that Jo was jump and broke his finger when fighting them, why would anyone, but a psycho person, break their fingers purposely
Yeah, it might be a stretch but it's also something I could see him do. If it was only one time I probably wouldn't think as much of it but both 30 and 53 makes me raise my brow. If you mean 32/53 he does wear it! It's a bit hard to see but he has it on.
Not my part of the reply but... I feel like he changed his tune after he understood the situation - that Ian felt bad about it and that it was connected to TJ. Like him deciding to not tell Ian that TJ apologized and not explaining that it was an accident like he did to his friends (still not sure that he never did, I don't really want to reread all of their scenes in multiple chapters but I don't remember him doing that) and then the chapter 53 situation if we take that into consideration. But it might be also because we got panels of Ian worrying and it influenced my perception?
To be fair Jo does seem kinda psycho haha the rabbit and guns and the blank wide-eyed expression he makes sometimes. But that wasn't one of those situations yeah haha even his friends were in disbelief that he could break his fingers on accident
I dislike what TJ did before but I can see his intentions aren’t evil. And that’s what makes me root for a ML so hard. TJ did SA, he did many unlikable stuff, but seeing CH 55 makes me feel sad. Does that mean I’m rooting for him? No. For Jo? No. But all I want is happiness for all the three characters. They each need therapy and friendship over romance in my opinion.
When did he SAed Ian ?
tj never SAed ian ?? are we reading the same manhwa jo on the other hand tho…
I don’t remember the chapter but there’s a scene in early chapters I think where he asked “did he give it to you hard? Did you like it that much?” And then non consensually kissed Ian after pushing him against a wall. This led to Ian slapping him. That is SA.
I don’t remember the chapter but there’s a scene in early chapters I think where he asked “did he give it to you hard? Did you like it that much?” And then non consensually kissed Ian after pushing him against a wall. This led to Ian slapping him. That is SA.
It was chapter 24. There was a sudden kiss, that’s for sure, but Ian punched him and then kissed him back. And then they had consensual sex. Initiated by Ian who kissed him back. So it wasn’t SA. Maybe you should read the story again cause it looks like you’re a little bit biased… ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~
Jo on the other hand, actually SAed Ian in chapter 52. He kept on fucking him and even cummed on his face while Ian was unconscious.
SA still happens, doesn’t change that. Kissing someone after shoving them to a wall without a clear consent beforehand IS SA. But do I care about it? No because this story has other important stuff, the only reason I’m bringing it up is because fans are hypocritical. I don’t think some know what SA is.
SA can still happen/be in the past but it’s up to victims how they react. And no I’m not biased, I think a lot of others fans are though cherry picking what is SA or not. What TJ did is SA.
“Sudden kiss” as in non con kiss. And they’re in a codependent relationship, I’m sure Ian felt guilty about hitting him. This is why I don’t see Jo ending up with Ian with how deep down in the hole he’s with TJ. I don’t mean it in a bad way either.
Actually he didn’t even punched him because of the kiss. He punched him BEFORE the kiss lol, he actually kissed him back immediately lol
You're messing up the order. TJ asked, he got slapped for that. Then he kissed Ian and then Ian kissed him. TJ didn't push Ian against a wall, they're in the middle of a room. They both got turned on by the slap and hair pulling. And if we count kisses without verbal consent as SA then Jo kissed Ian without consent either, at least the first time, I don't remember the rest tbh. I think there's only one time anyone asks about a kiss and that's Ian in 51.
Yes Jo did SA and so did TJ, that’s literally all I wanted to say. Not that hard. I did mess up the scenes so I apologize for that, but the noncon kiss still happened.
Whoops hehe
It still doesn’t change that sa happened, the victim only returned it and knowing how codependent their relationship is, Ian will always go back to TJ in the end regardless.
But it’s not like it was their first kiss. You said it yourself that they’re in a relationship. Codependent or not, it’s still a relationship in which they’re already intimate with each other. They’re already used to having sex and kissing each other. Kissing each other in an already established relationship is not sexual assault, except if one says something about not wanting it anymore. Which was not the case. Ian happily kissed him back. He didn’t even argued with the kiss. They’re both really passionate (they can punch each other and/or be kinda violent) but it’s never not consensual. Yes it’s toxic but it’s consensual.
The only reason I’m bringing codependency up is because it’s a huge connection to why Ian keeps going back to TJ (and the fact he’s barely had familial live before). It’s still SA to kiss someone before their acknowledgment, but it’s not a serious type of SA where I’m like: Call the cops! Criminal!
Yes, that’s why it is toxic. But he’s not forcing himself to have sex with him. And I totally agree with you about kissing someone before acknowledgment as SA. But I don’t entirely agree with you in a sense that it is NOT SA when you’re in a relationship with the person. If it’s a stranger, then yes it’s SA. If it’s a family member, yes it’s SA. But if you’re in an established sexual relationship with the person, in which you often kiss, then I don’t consider it as SA. It’s sudden. But not against consent since they’re in a relationship in which kissing each other is normal and established. It’s like your husband/wife had to ask every time to kiss you even though you’ve been married for years. If you actually would prefer for your husband/wife to ask you every time, then it’s ok, it’s on you, it’s because you personally prefer it, but you have to acknowledge that it’s not common, that kissing each other without asking when you’re in a relationship is not sexual assault unless one verbally said that they did not want it anymore. And they may not be married but they’ve been in an intimate relationship for years. If kissing is established then it cannot be SA. And it has been established for years.
That’s invalidating for you to say it’s not SA just because you’re in a relationship with someone. Based off my experience and codependent on one guy, I’ve been SA’ed and I see it as SA. But of course I’d brush it off until I left.
If you’re referring to sex buddies, that’s still the same. Sex buddies also need consent. Unless they discussed prior that non con is okay, I don’t see how this is okay.
It’s hard to say because people in a CODEPENDENT relationship will not easily say “I don’t want to do this” or confront about it. And I think it’s not even just that cause Ian didn’t confront Jo about the SA, a person he met a few months ago, what makes you think he’d say no to TJ?
Romantic relationship vs sexual relationship are not the same. It’s okay if couple established that kissing without asking is okay, but that’s not the case with any characters here.
Well then I’m sorry about what happened to you but you’re clearly projecting your trauma on this fictional relationship. There won’t have a scene in which they say « okay you can kiss me any time you want since we’re in a sexual relationship ». They’re fucked up and they’re in a fucked up relationship yet it’s still established and consensual. There’s no blackmail, there’s no assault, it’s one of the very few yaoi in which the bottom doesn’t say « no » because he actually wants it every single time. Whether it’s codependent or not, it’s still a consensual fictional relationship. A fucked up one for sure but you can’t project your real trauma on this fucked up love story. Considering their fucked up relationship as consensual doesn’t invalidate your trauma.
Projecting? No. But I am comparing. Readers are free to do this without judgement from others. This is why a lot of people resonate with certain stories.
Ian wouldn’t say no fully because he’s used to this, exactly, codependent. My only point is that TJ did SA, but that I don’t care as much because the only reason I’m bringing it up is to put it against those who claim he never did.
They’re used to having rough and long sex, it’s how they cope in a way. I don’t know about love story, but I agree that’s its fiction. Still doesn’t mean people can’t compare.
It’s just that saying there can’t be SA if you’re together with someone is strange. There can be SA’s in romantic relationships, even fuck buddies. There’s no restrictions. I shouldn’t have compared it with my personal experience, but I make my point. And I do apologize if I sounded rude in any way.
But you said it yourself, YOU consider it as SA because of the trauma you had. So you must know that your opinion is subjective and influenced by your own trauma. Even if it’s similar, it’s not the same situation. That’s what I said earlier. If you personally prefer for your partner to ask you every time for a kiss, then that on YOU. You have your own reasons. Your trauma is legit. But thinking that your subjective opinion which is based on a traumatic experience, IS the norm, then, you’d be wrong. Kissing each other when kisses are established in the relationship (whether it’s a love one or sex buddies) is not sexual assault. Unless, there’s a situation like yours in which one has a reason as to why there must have conditions. But your situation is a « special case » (because of the trauma you had and your trauma responses). And those conditions have to be verbally addressed because, as I said, it’s not the norm. It may trigger you but it still doesn’t mean that in this particular fictional situation (or even irl), it was SA. Even if in YOUR situation it was. Since it’s fictional, there won’t have a chapter in which they verbally talk about consent unless the author chose to do so which they didn’t but they showed in many ways that it’s is consensual AND established even if it’s fucked up. The kiss may have been a trigger (because it made you think about your own sexual assault) but it still was not sexual assault in this story.
And when I said that the « conditions have to be verbally addressed because it’s not the norm » I was talking about healthy relationships, not toxic ones, I’m not talking about your trauma with your abuser. And I’m talking about real life healthy relationships of course, not fictional ones.
tjian kissing in their already established sexual relationship is not sa are you fr?? yes i acknowledge they are codependent and their relationship is unhealthy but this is expected considering their past and current situation. but codependency doesnt mean lack of consent why are you ignoring all obvious enthusiastic consent especially in the scene you are labelling as ‘sa.’ im not trying to come across as mean but scrolling up you spread misinformation about the scene when that is not what happened then just said ‘whoops hehe.’ ?? please understand this but the narrative your pushing of ian being a victim to tj is silly and a dismissive to his character. while he has been a victim in the past his sexual relationship with tj is consensual and reciprocated. ian is not bound by his past he likes sex and he enjoys sex with tj. most of the time tjs advances are never unwanted and ian always reciprocates but when there has been times when ian has turned tj down (chp 18) tj listened and didnt push it.
everyone is entitled to their opinion and interpretation but i really think you should reread the story before you spread misinformation.
Kissing someone after shoving them against a wall IS SA. This is common sense and I wouldn’t even have to compare it with my experience. Seeing this doesn’t trigger me. This is an example of SA, I don’t know why so many act as if TJ did not assault. It doesn’t change that it’s SA just because the other reciprocates. Ian doesn't even confront Jo about the SA he did, what makes people think he’d say no to TJ?
The only time it’s okay is if they agreed to it PRIOR. It’s not just a simple “I am feeling like having sex”, there’s trauma playing and codependency. And rather than that, I think Ian is just the type to not confront about SA.
This is not an opinion. Being pushed to the wall and being kissed and Ian gave in, is SA. But how they react is up to them, he’s so used to the physical aspect that it’s not even a bother.
That’s why I do not care if TJ assaulted, I’m only saying that it is SA. that I do not justify what TJ did. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna drop the story over that nor do I hate TJ because of that.
Well that isn’t the case here when it comes to healthy.
There’s a difference between being used to kissing VS shoving someone against a wall and kissing them. I’m not saying codependency = lack of consent. But it does play a big role as to why they are the way they are.
I’m not saying Ian is a victim in general, but let’s not act like what TJ did is not assault. That’s the only thing I’m trying to say. That it is SA. But they’re so used to it, it does not come off as an issue.
They’re used to the physical aspect but no proper communication. I see it as Sa because Ian was pushed and kissed, the kiss was non con is all I’m trying to say, as for the sex, I never said it’s non con. I think you’re confusing yourself.
And just because they have an established sexual relationship doesn’t make the kiss not non con.
And I said whoops hehe referring to the order I mixed up. But the non con kiss still happened.
OF COURSE there can be SA in relationship. Most rapes happen in relationships. But I’m talking about kissing without asking when you’re in a relationship in which kisses are ESTABLISHED. And I’m only talking about kisses. Not sex.
but we already told you, he DID NOT pushed him against a wall. They’re in the middle of the room. They’re just equally violent with one another when they’re intimate. That’s why it also turns them on. He did not shove him against the wall. Just go and read the chapter, I literally found it for you.
And I told you that it is fictional and it’s up to the author to decide whether they want to add a chapter in which they talk explicitly about consent. Which they chose NOT to do. But they still showed in many ways that it is consensual. So there’s no need for « agreeing prior » since it will simply never happens.
You’re so talking about the fake « shoving against the wall » but you don’t even talk about how Ian punched him. And also kissed TJ without asking. And they had sex. It’s their relationship, it’s their dynamics. It’s established. Even if it was not said verbally.
I wasn’t even talking about sex when it comes to consent. I don’t think we are understanding lool. I’m saying the kiss was SA and I also said that I’m not talking about sex being SA…cause it wasn’t, Ian and TJ consented! As for the SA, it was sudden but also counts as SA. But do I care? Nooo please don’t take it the wrong way. I think it’s the way you phrased some sentences that made me think you were acting as if SA can’t happen in established relationship.
I replied to another person with this explanation:
“Lord thank you. I don’t know why some can’t admit the kiss was SA, that’s all I’m trying to say, and I don’t even care about it because it just shows in depth their relationship. Jo SA’ed Ian, but for some reason I find that scene more weird. As for the SA from TJ, it feels…normal? Not sure how to describe it. It brings more to the story in my opinion.
For the confrontation, I meant verbally but I didn’t expect that from any of them due to their physical normalcy.
They’re both used to this kind of relationship, but SA can happen regardless, is my point. And I enjoy seeing their scenes, it puts me in an awe state. Compared to other scenes, TJ and Ian have a powerful voice speaking to me despite their lack of verbal communication if that makes sense, all of their scenes are written so well.”
I have been telling you that the kiss is NOT non con because they’re in an relationship in which kisses are established. And it’s because you think the contrary, that your opinion IS a personal opinion (based on your trauma) and not a fact.
The Kiss is all I’m talking about, don’t bring in other because I also agree that it’s consensual when it comes to their sex. I checked the panel and I confused it for a wall, my bad. He still grabbed him and kissed. Unless Ian consented prior, its assault.
I was talking about sexual assault, not assault in general. And I have talked about Ian hitting TJ before, although not here, I’ve acknowledged that scene.
Ian was also wrong for that. As you said, toxic. But I still believe in the chances of them ending up together, they’re way too popular for the author to say no.
Consent isn’t forever just because you have an established relationship. It’s still SA if you go up and grab them and kiss them. It’s what they’re used to.
Established kisses is a strange way to put it. The kiss is non con. Just because they’re used to it doesn’t mean it’s established. They don’t even know where they’re going with their relationship, all we know is that they are each other’s only family.
???? please reread the chapter before you embarrass yourself sorry but you are coming across as illiterate. as i said before tjian have an established relationship which is full of rough and nasty sex doesnt mean that it can’t be consensual either. it can be both and it was both in the scene. ‘ian didnt say no because he is used to it.’ why are you continuously dodging my point. its been stated so many times in the story ian likes sex and sex with tj. he isnt ‘used’ to it like someone who cant say no. he wants it actually he is a ‘slut’ and that is okay he is empowered sexually dont take that away from his character. they are in a relationship its really that simple. would you consider the times ian has kissed tj off guard and rough unconsensual too? because sorry to tell you this happens a lot that and is their relationship dynamic not ‘sa.’
and for the scene itself ian slapped tj causing him to become turned on. yes he grabbed ian and kissed him. there was no pushing into walls involved but even if there was it wouldnt make it assault. ian kissed right back. i feel like you are misinterpreting the scene wildly. there was no unwillingness on ians side sexually. it was obviously trying to convey ians fear of closeness to tj after he was relieved that tj wasnt the one hurt and in hospital. ian didnt go there with the intention of sex but he realises they cannot keep their hands off eachother. there was no sa stop spreading misinformation doyak-nim has already scolded readers for this.
girl thank you for not letting people spread
misinformation about the scene. my brain hurts from correcting stupid people (⌒▽⌒)
It feels normal because it’s not SA. Not in their situation. I can understand the reasons why you’d have your own opinion about kissing in an established relationship but you got to take into account the context, the roots of their relationship. Sexual assault means that there’s no consent. TJ can kiss Ian as many time as he wants and it will not be assault because he has consent. It was not verbally said in this fictional story but there’s many other proofs. And that’s why it feels normal. It’s like the punching and violence for example. It if had been another couple, it would have been awful and misplaced. But when it comes to them, it’s just how they are. They’re ok with it and they’re even turned on by it. If they both consent, even if we readers can’t understand, it’d still be « normal » for them.
Doyak scolded those who claimed a character was a rapist when he wasn’t, at most SA but not rape. The author never said there wasn’t SA.
So both Ian and TJ assaults each other. And the SA happened, the kiss was non con and it doesn’t change the fact that SA happened, but I agree that the sex was consensual the moment Ian kissed back reluctantly.
Why are we discussing Ian’s promiscuity? That’s not what I’m talking about. I never said most of their relationship together throughout the years is non con. I think you didn’t read my words properly or perhaps I phrased it wrong, so my fault.
And my point is that the kiss is non con. That is all.
SA can happen and what happens next doesn’t change that. Kissing someone without prior consent is assault I’d say, but afterwards Ian gave consent. My only point is that the SA happened in the PAST but then Ian gave consent afterwards because he kissed back. That is all, I swear.
I’m only saying it’s SA but I’m not repulsed by it nor do I hate any of them for that. SA can happen and we can move on like nothing happened. That’s the case for TJ and Ian, as you said, they don’t care. That’s how their dynamic is.
I feel you so bad omg !! It’s so damn frustrating because i feel like they purposely don’t want to understand. By the way, seeing your comments help me calm my frustration with this whole conversation lmao. They’re all on point.
last time im replying because i dont want to waste my time with people who are not intellectually in check. i think you should go back to most subpar bl plots.
tj would never ever do anything without consent to ian even kissing. you can hate his character but dont mischaracterise him. he has always checked ians boundaries especially after supporting him during his past. i dont understand why you obsessed with pushing this narrative you look foolish. it. he kissed him and it had no negative repercussions it was not non con at all get over it.
yep!! as an unapologetic tj lover i am so confused on how blind people can be. treating an eighteen year relationship like this. seems like trying to save face for the actual ml who has assaulted. tj could beg to bottom and people would still behave as if he is the villain.
You are all thinking too much. I am only pointing out the SA, but I do not hate any of them. You’re great at taking without insulting people. I’m not pushing the narrative, the panels speak for themselves; the part where Ian was grabbed and kissed. The kiss can be SA and they can still move on, that’s how their dynamic is. I’m only saying the kiss is non con, you’re putting words in my mouth as if I said everything is non con about them.
It’s 19, almost 20 years. Again, you’re not reading properly because where did I justify what Jo did? TJ begging to be bottom is literally on my list of fantasies, so try me.
Were not talking about whether you’re repulsed by it or not. We’re talking about how you are wrong about the kiss being sexual assault. Cause it was not. And it’s starting to be really annoying because there’s literally two persons taking the time to explain to you how it’s NOT sa and you refuse to acknowledge it.
The whole « they assault each other » doesn’t even makes sense. If their dynamics is to « assault each other » then it’s not assault. It’s just their dynamics. They BOTH do it, they BOTH like it. They BOTH consent to it. So if there’s consent, then it’s NOT assault. And you got to stop saying it is when it’s NOT. Even you, said that it looks normal when it comes to them because IT IS NORMAL. and it’s normal because it’s NOT SA. Also, their very first kiss was consensual. So no there was never sexual assault between them. Not before, not even now.
You got to try to make a difference between sexual dynamics and sexual assault. But also between sexual behaviors in general and in a particular (fictional) context.
Stop thinking with a general opinion on what you think about relationships irl and take the context into account. Take their dynamics into account. Take the whole author’s work into account. Stop saying bullshit about fake sexual assaults because it’s starting to be really annoying, it feels like you’re actually mocking real sexual assaults and it even feels disrespectful towards the author’s work.
You’ve been talking about how TJ pushed him against the wall and you were wrong (and yet you used this argument so many times to prove what you said). You’ve been comparing this fictional relationship with your own real trauma and even you, admitted that you shouldn’t have done it. You didn’t even remember the chapter well yet it was your only argument for spreading fake informations. Your arguments are subjective and sometimes even blurry or contradictory.
We’re kind enough to explain to you that it is not SA so stop thinking with your ego and have the emotional intelligence and maturity to change your opinion after receiving new informations.
“You’ve been talking about how TJ pushed him against the wall and you were wrong (and yet you used this argument so many times to prove what you said)” and you’re leaving out the fact that I’ve actually admitted I was wrong, and that I confused it for a wall, I’ve also stated that the kiss is still non con. Regardless of their dynamic, that is SA.
“So if there’s consent, then it’s NOT assault.” And Ian did not say yes to the kiss which TJ initiated without consent. So it is SA. I don’t know why you’re claiming it isn’t when the panels show itself.
That is a fake sexual assault? Really? Kissing without getting consent is not SA?
I’m aware of their dynamics, still doesn’t change the fact it’s toxic and SA has happened. And you admitted that Ian has assaulted TJ, it’s how they are. Just because it’s their dynamic doesn’t make it consensual. It’s what they’re used to. Sexual dynamics doesn’t determine if it’s assault or not, it’s just how they are with each other sexually; communication, desire, etc.
I’m only talking about CH24 where the kiss initiated by TJ Is sexual assault. Nowhere did I talk about other scenes between them being SA, I agreed that they are not SA except the scene in CH24 is SA but it isn’t a serious type of SA.
“They BOTH do it, they BOTH like it. They BOTH consent to it. So if there’s consent, then it’s NOT assault. And you got to stop saying it is when it’s NOT.”— That’s all they’ve ever known. Physical touch is their communication. They only have each other and see as if they only have each other. You keep saying if there’s consent, but you can see that Ian did not consent the moment TJ grabbed him and kissed him. And then he gave in and kissed back.
You keep saying fake information but the SA literally happened right in the panel. I do not know which part of “TJ grabbed Ian and kissed him” is fake. Even Ian looked surprised but he reciprocated back. PRIOR CONSENT WAS NOT GIVEN, AFTERWARDS YES.
I read all the replies and this op is biased.....lol.....
I’m biased because? All I’m trying to say is that SA between Ian and TJ def happened. And Jo did too.
For fucks sales I feel like you’re doing it on purpose.
They kissed before this chapter ok ? They kissed multiple times. So Tj don’t have to ask to kiss him again when they’ve been kissing for years. It is not fucking sexual assault. I didn’t admit that Ian assaulted TJ, I’m just pointing how your argument doesn’t make sense.
I feel like you’re trolling me for real. There’s no panel in which Ian is against it. You’re just interpreting it because you’re projecting. WHAT DO YOU MEAN “you can see he did not consent”, THATS LITERALLY YOU INVENTING BULLSHIT WITH ONE IMAGE OF HIM SURPRISE AND THEN IMMEDIATELY KISSING HIM. So him kissing back means consent ? But he didn’t verbally said “I give consent” ?? But for you it means he’s giving consent ? THEN THINK ABOUT HOW THEYVE BEEN KISSING BEFORE THIS FUCKING CHAPTER, FOR MORE THAN 10 YEARS. HE HAS GIVEN HIS CONSENT SINCE THEY WERE 20s AND THERE WAS NO NEED FOR VERBAL CONFIRMATIONS.
Him grabbing him and kissing him is NOT sexual assault. As you said, that’s just how they communicate. They have been doing it FOR YEARS. IT’S NOT THE FIRST KISS THEY HAD. So they’re just violent and passionate.
And what is your point exactly? Saying bullshit like “it’s SA but it feels normal” “it’s okay but it’s ok”. “It’s SA but not to the point of calling the police” ? What’s your point ? Saying A KISS in FICTION is SA ? Especially if it’s to say that “it doesn’t matter”.
BEING SPONTANEOUS IN AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP IS NOT SEXUAL ASSAULT
If you want to talk about sexual assault, then talk about ACTUAL SEXUAL ASSAULT AND NOT A SPONTANEOUS KISS BETWEEN 2 FICTIONAL CHARACTERS WHO HAD BEEN IN AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP IN WHICH THEY HAD ALREADY KISSED MULTIPLE TIMES FOR YEARS.
Also, why talking about sexual assault if it’s to say “but it’s okay, it doesn’t matter”. Do you actually give a shit or is it just because you’re bored and want to start shit ?
You’re literally disrespecting the authors work, I swear, I’m not wasting my time with you anymore.
I can’t with them anymore, they definitely do it on purpose and i’m the biggest clown for falling for it
Golly! I’m not disrespecting the authors work. The kids is non consent because there was no prior permission. Just because they’ve fucked around for years before doesn’t mean sexual assault can happen!
I’ve explained myself already, the only reason I’m bringing this whole scene up is because some act like TJ has never once SA’ed Ian. It doesn’t matter to me, SA isn’t a big deal, but I can’t stand hypocrites or those with double standards.
When I say it’s SA but it feels normal between them, it’s how they’ve communicated throughout these years. It’s normalized between them. Not that it’s actually normal.
Please do be specific when you say a kiss in a fiction, more like a kiss after being grabbed and pulled. Sure they’re probably used to this, but it doesn’t change the fact SA has happened. And you stated that Ian punched TJ, what is that if not assault?
It’s funny that the butler made the uke cum so many times and I only see the uke’s dick barely dripping with the ML(?). I think this is just for the cuckolding kink but I’m not sure. This is strange, makes me think he liked the butler’s more, cause that one scene where uke came a shit load with butler and then just a bit with the ML.
You have to think that he already camed a fuck ton, like he was dry after that ╮(￣▽￣)╭
I saw a chapter after that and I think he dry orgasmed, like from his ass lmaoo
It’s just funny that he came like waterfall and then I barely see it after.
There will be 4P between this story’s couple and the couple from author’s other work: Office Worker’s Love Hotel Guys’ Night. Via Twitter: https://x.com/sumeshiwwww/status/1809579154595037548?s=46
I think author did it for fun, not part of the main story.
Uwu she is a blessing (=・ω・=)
There will be 4P between this story’s couple and the couple from author’s other work: Office Worker’s Love Hotel Guys’ Night. Via Twitter: https://x.com/sumeshiwwww/status/1809579154595037548?s=46
I think author did it for fun, not part of the main story.
Ian clearly wants to be in an exclusive relation (ch 32). TJ said that Ian should know how he feels and if it makes sense for them to be apart “does it make sense for US to be apart”.
But Ian asked what does “us” even mean and TJ said they surpass lovers and family. TJ looked anxious in that panel while saying it. I think he means lovers as in their current sexual relationship (not the romantic).
The lack of an official/what defines their relationship LABEL has hurt their relationship. Ian definitely wants to be exclusive to TJ, at first anyways, but that feelings probably got tired but it’s still there, waiting for TJ. But TJ’s priorities are on being more powerful until he can really protect Ian. But that’s not what Ian wants most likely. And plus the gang world is homophobic so it probably hurts Ian more, knowing they might not publicly hold hands, etc. Of course, TJ too.
RATHER than family or lovers, Ian most likely wants to just be this official label: “Lovers” (not the lovers as in sexual only, but officially lovers). And Ian was in the gang where he didn’t even want to be in. He also watched TJ date women (iirc), waiting to be called by him for sex in secret due to the homophobic environment.
“How can we be over when we never started.”
—Ouch.
Jason told TJ to be careful of his heart. TJ is able to endure this due to Jason’s words: First money, then power, then the girl (as in IAN for TJ). He wants to be the leader of the gang to protect Ian. But pretty sure that isn’t what Ian truly wants.
This is probably why TJ is okay with this situation for their relationship. He thinks they can only be together once he’s in power, even if it’d indirectly hurt Ian. It’s a sad situation.
I guess it would make sense for Jason to give that advice. It’s really dangerous being together with someone while you’re a low rank gang member who can’t protect your family. But I do question, what then if he becomes a leader? Will he continue being one despite Ian wanting to live a life outside of the gang? What will their relationship be? In my opinion, the more involved you are in the gang and living in an environment where gangs thrive, you can’t be secure.
Yes, TJ helped his addiction, but something leaves me unsatisfied. I wonder when they’d fully talk it out, obviously it won’t be a calm and casual discussion.
I do hope there is a trajectory in which TJ starts to see what Ian wants and not just what he thinks is gonna help. I also see why he’s doing this, it just doesn’t seem right imo. TJ ran back to him in that chapter out of regret and so did Ian, but then Jo is there with the perfect timing. It seems to me that TJ and Ian will always run back to each other, they are really codependent. Both say things they sometimes don’t mean to each other. They will hurt each others feelings, then run off, then run back. How long will this go on?
Hopefully there comes a moment where one or both decides to establish an official relationship. I assume it’ll be revealed by end of S3, the establishment of an official relationship and endgame reveal in mid of S3, then dealing with gang stuff in S4 for conclusion.
Hopefully we get side stories too.
Yess everything so perfectly put together ty!