he’s not irredeemable bc he acts like a spoiled entitled rich brat or because of his shit attitude or because he’s a predator. he’s irredeemable bc he is stupid. dan told him point blank period what the problem was and he still doesn’t get it. he’s still just like hmmm well my other manipulative tactics didn’t work let me try another one. surely it will work this time. i mean if i were being more serious i’d say more about how this reflects his character overall but it’s just funny atp. actual brick wall
I went and started reading Roses and Champagne because so many people were saying “oh people don’t hate Caesar as much as Jaekyung even though Caesar shoots, rapes, and kidnaps Leewon.” Here I was expecting their relationship to be batshit form the fucking get-go only to find that not only had Caesar been (mostly*** before someone comes swinging with “he did xyz bad things I KNOW. CONTEXT) kind, caring, and considerate to Leewon for the first 40 chapters of the webtoon but that he was very clearly and deliberately PUSHED into crashing out the way he does when he finally DOES crash out for real (I’m on chapter 43).
These two characters fundamentally do not operate the same AT ALL not just from a personality standpoint but also narratively speaking. Caesar’s wilder actions are justified and explained by the narrative, Jaekyung’s, so far, are NOT. The issue is not JUST that Jaekyung’s a fucking asshole, it’s that after 60+ chapters of the fuckass webtoon, we don’t know WHY he is, we don’t know what any of his bullshit is rooted in. Not to mention all the other shit that’s ass about the writing of this webtoon. THAT’S why people can like and enjoy and understand a character like Caesar but not a character like Jaekyung, even though, yes! Absolutely! Caesar DOES do worse things than Jaekyung! Don’t fucking piss me off.
Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I’ve been enjoying Roses and Champagne a whole lot so far.
I can’t really say much because I’ve not read BJ Alex in literal years to the point where I can’t remember jack diddly shit about what it was about frankly lmfao (though I think it’s funny that way back when I was a wee fetus I had enough of an opinion about it even then to rate it just 3 stars amongst the stories I left either unrated or rated 5 stars…) but it’s interesting seeing the comparisons being made between the two webtoons and the critiques being made about it.
On one hand I’m like as a writer, it’s inevitable that you have a few tropes, themes, ideas, character archetypes, etc that you end up cycling around a lot in your stories. And it’s also inevitable that you might end up self-plagiarizing a bit, consciously and/or unconsciously, when you’re writing because you know, all your stuff’s coming from the same brain. Finally, there’s simply no original story ideas anyone can come up with and all that…basically, to an extent, I think it makes sense for this story to have commonalities with BJ Alex, or to be something like BJ Alex taken at a different angle. And obviously, the author can write what she likes too, and if this is what she likes then of course she can write it again!
But on the other hand, if it’s really as copy-paste-like as people are claiming it to be in terms of borrowing the same exact story beats without adding the nuance needed to accommodate the fact that these are somewhat different characters in a somewhat different situation…then I do think it’s kind of lazy writing my friends and I have honestly wondered if she is writing into these tropes out of genuine enjoyment of them or if the #market is playing a guiding hand in how she approaches this story, maybe it’s a mix of both. Obviously BJ Alex in and of itself was a hit, and then you obviously have much broader BL tropes that people ceaselessly eat up no matter what, so it makes me wonder if she may have felt the need to do an encore for the sake of securing an audience rather than try something new/different and potentially risky.
Idk how this will end but regardless it would be nice to see the MC able to heal and feel cherished…I just love him so much as a character…he can be so bold, cold, and calculating, and he often puts on somewhat of a strong front in the face of the things that happen to him and what he has to do/has done to survive, but then you also get these moments every now and then where he well and truly breaks down and we see the extent of the emotional toll everything’s taken on him ;-; that he thinks he’s worthless for exploiting his body/having had his body exploited…ouuu MC I hold you to my chest like baby…
Definitely I think there are things worth critiquing about Ten Count. Of course there were blatant moments of nonconsent or dubious consent, there’s the power dynamic, the “treatment” is…lol, there’s the whole thing with Ueda and Shirotani’s father, etc…at the same time I feel like there are a couple things people either missed or are reading into too literally.
Re the more problematic things, first of all…I think it’s a bit shallow to just say “depicting x is bad” without taking into full consideration HOW x is depicted and why its part of the story in the first place. Personally I think you can depict anything you want in fiction, so long as you handle it with nuance and awareness. And then I’d give caveats for things on a case-by-case basis depending on what type of story it is—like I’m not going to expect a porno, for example, to accurately portray lifeguards LMAOOO. Ten Count isn’t just porn though so I think it’s fair to hold it to higher standards in terms of depictions.
So for example, reading over a few comments, personally I think it’s not enough to just say it was bad for the author to include a relationship between an (underage) student and a teacher. Of course those types of relationships end up happening, unfortunately, and I think it’s fine if a story brings that to light. I’d say the issue THERE with regards to this story is that the relationship is never addressed further beyond being a source of trauma for a young Shirotani…Ueda is never framed or acknowledged as a victim herself, instead being nothing but an aggressor. Frankly it’s incredibly easy to glance over the fact that she herself was just a student at the time, not an adult who could consent to that type of relationship. Not that she didn’t do things wrong, but now that I’m older and can see that, it’s a bit…and then you factor in what feels like blatant misogyny from both the author and the readers (I remember even back when I first read it, so many people were calling her a bitch…of course one of the few female characters in the yaoi has to be evil, lmao)…yeah, it rubs me the wrong way now.
Another thing I’m seeing is also critiques of the patient/doctor dynamic between Shiro and Kuro. I’m not going to defend this out and out, I think there are still critiques that can be made, but correct me if I’m wrong…didn’t Kuro try to break things off between them when he realized he couldn’t get over his feelings for Shiro? Like I did come into the reread expecting medical malpractice LOL and there arguably still was but I remember commenting to my friends about how I thought it was nice that Kuro explicitly tried to avoid that lmao. The only thing is yeah I’d say the transition from the patient/doctor relationship to the more platonic/sexual/romantic relationship wasn’t super clear, and of course Kuro kept trying to treat Shiro rather than suggesting he go seek professional help with someone else and all but…at the same time with something like exposures/exposure therapy, it’s the kind of thing you would, could, and should still do outside of a clinical setting, right? (My knowledge of stuff like OCD/anxiety is limited, I had a brief episode in my life where I ended up getting treated for it myself so I know a bit but not much in detail lol.)
Anyway with those couple of things aside (this is so long already lol), maybe it’s because of my own preference for the psychosexual but I think that Kuro and Shiro’s relationship overall perhaps shouldn’t be taken too literally. To me at least, I feel that while both of them are their own separate entities of course, they also act as extensions of/representations of something crucial to the other person/their inner desires. To Kuro, Shiro is his path towards atonement for his mishap with Nishigaki—I mean it’s blatantly shown that the reason why Kuro went into psych in the first place is because he learned about how much Nishigaki was suffering and felt so bad about the possibility! that he might’ve been responsible for driving Nishigaki away or for making him straight up commit SUICIDE. That’d fuck me up as a grown adult, imagine as a kid…then of course there’s the overall parental neglect aspect, Kuro clearly craves praise, attention, and stimulation overall since he never got any of that from his parents growing up, and then the one person who gave him an ounce of anything was Nishigaki who disappeared…
Meanwhile I think to Shiro, Kuro is an embodiment of his real inner desires—his desires expressed without the overwhelming guilt and shame he himself feels about them. I’m obsessed with the scene where Shiro goes off to finger himself in the public bathroom stall, it’s genuinely crazy work. Because at the same time that he’s so disgusted by the environment and what he’s doing, he’s also ridiculously turned on by it, obviously (it’s crazy how our brains conflate disgust/taboo with pleasure)…and then because he can’t reconcile his feelings and actions and his desire, he just imagines it’s Kuro fingering him instead? So he doesn’t have to think of Himself doing what he’s doing? So that it feels more okay for him to do??? uuuuu girl you are so psychosexual.
Also the scene where, I don’t remember what sexual activity they did lmao, where Shiro burst into tears afterwards and apologized to Kuro for dirtying him… like I don’t know. Yes the consent is occasionally dubious if not nonexistent but I don’t think it’s that way necessarily just because Shiro outright doesn’t want it, he’s outright not in the mood or outright isn’t attracted to Kuro. I think it’s often that he DOES want it but the shame/guilt/disgust about his own sexuality he’s internalized from childhood ends up acting as a wall between him and his desires. So sometimes he and/or Kuro will sometimes more gently chip away at said wall and other times you see Kuro basically bulldozing through it lmfao. There are scenes where Kuro asks Shiro before doing something, after all, acknowledging where there might be a boundary he doesn’t want to cross, or where Shiro asks Kuro for something of his own volition, or where Shiro challenges himself to do something so that Kuro will then respond to him…again, not saying that the consent is never dubious, but I think contextualizing how and why says something more about the characters in this case.
Also like…okay. Can we really talk about Kuro for a second? I wouldn’t be able to diagnose him but there is something neurodivergent going on with Kuro, too, that goes beyond just him being some cool, calm, nonchalant seme. Even when as a child he’s depicted as hardly ever emoting. Like no expressions. His face barely changes when he’s shocked or when he’s sad/emotional/crying. He only ever seems to emote a bit more with Shiro and even then. Then he’s very straightforward and blunt with his speech, I even get the impression of a certain monotony about his tone of voice…I’m thinking about the extra where he jokes around about being an android and Shiro seriously can’t tell if he’s joking or not (yeah we could attribute that to Shiro being a naive bottom but lmao). I don’t know, maybe I’m reading into him too much. I just don’t think that guy is neurotypical himself, either.
Anyway. My long as review coming back to it. I still like it, in fact, I think I can appreciate it more and better than I could when I was younger and I couldn’t understand or think through some of these things…
Jaekyung definitely has rich person brainrot where he thinks he’s entitled to everything and everyone he wants because he can just buy them. We’re seeing him once again try to throw money at his supposed problem and being shocked and appalled when it doesn’t work. There’d been an earlier chapter too where he talked about how Dan’s apartment stank of poverty. It makes me wonder whether Jaekyung has always been rich/grown up as part of a rich family or if it was his MMA career that made him outrageously wealthy.
On one hand if he’s always been wealthy then yeah, it can easily explain how/why he’s so lacking in empathy, his entitlement, and why he just might genuinely believe money (and fists) can solve everything. In this case he’s probably never been seriously denied anything in his life, lol, but maybe his parents were similarly emotionally absent from his life, relying on money to take care of things. Or maybe they were there and just as nutty? lol. Part of me believes this is probably more likely—yeah natural talent can get you decently far, but the training you need to become the best of the best probably cost hella money. It had to have come from somewhere.
On the other hand it would be interesting if he’s self-made but just forgot where he came from. I would even say he’s the type to be like “fuck you, I got mine” about his journey where he thinks he doesn’t owe anyone anything after working so hard…how you say, survivorship bias? Or it might be that he actively doesn’t want to remember the fact that he came from a more meager background. Jaekyung seems to hate “weakness”/vulnerability in himself (which of course then extends to others lmao) so it wouldn’t surprise me if he wasn’t always rich but hates thinking about a time when he was in or close to Dan’s position in life, having to rely so much on others and being at their mercy.
…Or he’s just a rich asshole for plot/redemption arc purposes, because who cares about actually exploring anything about anything amirite? ╮(￣▽￣)╭
While it’s nice to see Dan finally putting his foot down against Jaekyung, I’m curious about his motivation as to why. Is it really because he’s had enough of Jaekyung’s mistreatment, or because he still feels so overwhelmingly guilty about what happened (though it wasn’t his fault) that he feels he has to refuse out of obligation/so he doesn’t “burden” Jaekyung anymore?
I think it’s interesting how the last few panels when he says he’s not taking money from Jaekyung anymore, neither we nor Jaekyung can see Dan’s facial expression anymore, he’s turned away. Again, is it detest for Jaekyung? Fear? Guilt?
I think there’s a lot to talk about re: how Jaekyung goes about having sex with people and his attitudes around it and what broader implications they have about his character and his values and how he thinks about other people and relationships and what it might say about the type of environment he grew up in or the spaces he’s occupied and all that, genuinely. I think these are all much more interesting questions than whether or not what he does to Dan, at least at first, is rape—in part because that question in and of itself is such a non-question to me. But it’s like how can we even get there if we can’t even get past what is essentially square zero. Sheesh. How are we meant to ask what [x] means or what [x] says about a character if we don’t even know what [x] is.
It seems like the other thread got deleted (I can’t blame the author though), but I did want to talk with you about the issue of rape in this webtoon based on your comment there. I wanted to ask what your personal definition of consent was before we even start getting into legal definitions. Personally I operate off the FRIES model. Here’s a link explaining it: https://adc.d211.org/cms/lib/IL49000007/Centricity/Domain/328/What%20is%20Consent.pdf
Do you agree? Or disagree? Why or why not?
It seems like the other thread got deleted (I can’t blame the author though), but I did want to talk with you about the issue of rape in this webtoon based on your comment there. I wanted to ask what your personal definition of consent was before we even start getting into legal definitions. Personally I operate off the FRIES model. Here’s a link explaining it: https://adc.d211.org/cms/lib/IL49000007/Centricity/Domain/328/What%20is%20Consent.pdf
Do you agree? Or disagree? Why or why not?
When I saw that Dan and everyone were taking a photo together directly in front of the hospital he was working at with the name of it on display and everything I thought, oh, I know what’s going to happen—the photo will end up on social media or just left open on Potato’s/Heesung’s phone, Jaekyung will see it, and he will use it to go seek out Dan. Only for him to materialize just in time to save Dan from a suicide attempt that, frankly, comes out of nowhere. God. Really? No further chasing? No buildup? Jaekyung just appears in time to “save” Dan from some contrived situation again?
Even a real, failed suicide attempt that Dan would’ve needed to properly recover from would’ve been more interesting. Fine if we’re so bent on letting these two get together in the end, let Dan actually hit rock bottom and build himself back up again. Or allow him time to be properly miserable. Like, you know, it is often that when a loved one does attempt to commit suicide, the people around them don’t see it coming—that the person who is suicidal will go out of their way, sometimes, to hide it. But like we’ve been in Dan’s POV now for a while. Maybe I missed it but the guy didn’t seem as hopeless as to want to take his life. Depressed, for sure, but. Whatever I guess.
I think Jaekyung x Heesung would be such an interesting dynamic. Two batshit insane human beings in their own ways. Lowkey can’t stand each other and yet are the only two people presented in this webtoon so far who can actually match each other’s freaks (and strength/power). Two tops. I know the sex would be fucking crazy. I want to see who ends up winning out and beating the other into reluctant/begrudging submission. I think my money’s on Heesung that guy lowkey seems more insane than Jaekyung ngl. Plus there’s simply something satisfying about the idea of that Jaekyung guy getting the cockiness fucked out of him.
What do you like about this webtoon? I’m genuinely asking. I have things that I do like about it but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone else articulate what they liked about it other than saying that the art is good (agree, though I have my own stylistic preferences that make me shrug about certain anatomical things) and the plot is good (…disagree). What about the art do you like? What about the plot do you like? Particular characters/characterization? Character design? Story arcs/plotlines? Particular story elements/tropes? The writing overall? I’m curious.
For the people who insist on saying that Jaekyung isn't a rapist...
A lot of you acknowledge that Jaekyung is a violent and abusive asshole though, right? So why is calling him a rapist too much of a stretch for you? If you already think he’s a bad person, then why resist adding the label of rapist, especially when Jaekyung continues rough, sexual activity with Dan at several points throughout the webtoon, even as Dan repeatedly says no? Even without factoring the financial coercion, the threats, the use of physical force, or the power imbalance between them...doesn't no mean no? Isn't it the case that if someone’s no is ignored, then any action that comes afterwards isn't really consensual?
Would calling Jaekyung a rapist disrupt your enjoyment of his character and/or this webtoon?
Because you can still find him entertaining as a character while acknowledging he rapes Dan. I know I've had moments where I had to laugh because of how ridiculously awful he is, but I still recognize what he’s doing. And there are other enjoyable parts of this webtoon, like the art, other characters, their relationships, etc. People who say you're a bad person for reading and enjoying it just because it has rape, even romanticized rape, are being reductive. Enjoyment and acknowledgment can coexist.
Would calling him a rapist mean you could no longer root for him or his and Dan’s relationship?
There mere fact and extent of his abusive behavior, with or without rape, would or should be enough to inspire those thoughts and feelings. Nonetheless you can still want to see how the author “fixes” Jaekyung while acknowledging his actions. Personally, I can't root for the two being together but I still want to see how the author goes about “fixing” him.
Are you differentiating between rape and sexual assault?
The only thing really distinguishing the two is whether or not penetration was involved. And penetration was most certainly involved, which means Jaekyung most certainly raped Dan several times.
Is it because Dan is being paid to endure Jaekyung's treatment of him? Or because at some point he agreed to Jaekyung’s terms?
Financial coercion, or any type of coercion, being used to obtain a "yes" from someone, does not constitute a real "yes." Dan only says yes because saying no would mean him losing life-saving/life-changing money, and him being physically harmed—it isn’t a free and enthusiastic choice. It's like saying a robbery victim “wanted” to give their money to the person holding a gun to their head. And just because Dan agrees to one thing at one point in time, doesn't mean he's agreeing to anything and everything all the time. And even if that IS what he's agreeing on—it doesn't mean he can never, ever take back that agreement. No means no. People generally agree consent can be withdrawn at any time.
Is It because in so much yaoi and in romance in general, no doesn't mean no? That Dan's resistance isn't genuine, and that the story is playing into a rape/noncon/ravishment sexual fantasy?
Even the fantasy is called a rape/noncon fantasy. Rape is the fundamental element of the dynamic between them, even in a fantastical context. So Jaekyung is either raping or "raping" Dan either way.
But to the point of it being a fantasy of some kind...isn't Dan supposed to be shown to enjoy it in some way? Aren't the real consequences of raping someone meant to be put aside for the sake of the fantasy? Dan doesn't start to "enjoy" what's happening until much later on in the webtoon, and it's still only a physical reaction he's having, not a psychological enjoyment. He's still shown to want to have much gentler sex with Jaekyung, not a form of the violent sex that Jaekyung so often subjects him to but just toned down so he isn't physically hurt as much. The webtoon goes out of its way to show how Jaekyung's sexual violence has physical and psychological impacts on Dan. Their first interaction together ends up with Dan staying in bed for days, curled up, sleepless, exhausted, in pain—visibly depressed and anxious. At one point Jaekyung fucks him so hard he passes out, and the doctor who arrives to check him out is horrified by the injuries Dan has sustained because of Jaekyung's treatment. Jaekyung's coach calls out Jaekyung for his mistreatment of Dan for MUCH LESS than what he even knows Jaekyung is and has been doing to him. Even Heesung, shady as he is, finds Jaekyung's treatment of Dan to be awful, knowing full well what it is. What is fantastical about these moments? What is enjoyable?
What about this isn’t this straightforward? I know that why and how the rape is happening may be complicated, but isn’t rape just rape? I genuinely don’t get why there’s so much resistance to calling it that.