Akaito's Topics (24)

Knowing Kim dan it's definitely GUILT

I see it as failed love. I think he loves him and feels he can never live up to being good enough for him. He hurt the man he fell in love with and ruined his spotless record so he can’t face him now. Fear and guilt play into it but it’s a broken heart.

Imo I believe it’s a mix of guilt and fear. In the panel where Dan remembered the spray incident, his expression to me looked like he was extremely anxious/scared. I also think that the fallout from that incident left Dan with trauma, cause when Potato brought up the spray incident last chapter, Dan flinched then too. And since he’s a meek softie, having a gorilla like Jaekyung yelling in your face about to punch your lights out would terrify anyone to their core.
In short, Dan is probably scared of being around Jaekyung now and has no trust in him.

And plus, if Dan went back to Seoul to work for Jae, he wouldn’t be able to be around his grandma in her final moments, and since she’s all that he has, he doesn’t want to be apart from her when she eventually passes away.

You're all right. Though I'll go even further.
Considering his desperate situation, I think he's fed up with everything and going back with someone like Jjk is the last thing he needs right now. It's a mental and physical exhaustion he's showing; he looks broken to me. If not for Jjk being almost magically there he'd have drown himself for good by now. It's not a surprise for him to feeling like this considering his sad past, his encountering with the mma guy that only worsened his already lack of self-esteem, his job that he's about to lose... his only remaining family that's about to leave him also... That's too much for one person, particularly for someone who tends to blame everything on himself like Dan. If he has a more carefree nature he wouldn't suffer this much, I believe.
You don't spend sleepless nights like this drinking, you're not sleep walking into the ocean like that without grave reasons either, I think he's deeply depressive and isn't fully conscious of the state he's in.
So of course when he has such materialistic solution coming from the very person who made him suffer, he'd refuse. Jjk needs to see further than the first impressions and show empathy towards Dan, things he's not accustomed to show.

Like I suppose even without necessarily labeling it correctly or labeling it differently a discussion can still be had, but at the same time it’s like, there’s going to be a huge gap in how we then interpret him as a character and what various things actually mean and say about him depending on if we see the sex Jaekyung has as being consensual or mostly nonconsensual.

For example I would say Jaekyung is sadistic and feels outright entitled to sex, based off the way he treats Dan before, during, and after their first time together (and of course many of their interactions afterwards, even outside of sex lol). I’d even say he’s quite cold and clinical about not only sex but probably relationships in general. But I don’t know, someone who thinks everything he does is consensual and thinks it’s Jaekyung’s god given right to treat someone any type of way so long as he’s paying them, or sees his Jinx as good enough justification for him to do that, or simply thinks that Dan would otherwise have little to no real issue with the sex he’s having with Jaekyung probably might not interpret Jaekyung’s actions and dialogue and actions as being sadistic and entitled. To them, he may simply be being pragmatic. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

(Mind you, nothing’s wrong with being a sadist—the issue is subjecting someone otherwise unwilling or unenthusiastic to your sadism without consulting with them first, of course. I just think it’s interesting that Jaekyung specifically gets off on hurting Dan and making him cry.)

Yeah, I noticed it got deleted, I was busy so I don't know what happened towards the end...
Thank you, I'll read the text and be back at you

ok so hear me out bruh.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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YOU BETTER READ THE TEXT AND DON'T GET back HERE LOL!!!!!!!!!! ciao~~~~

Kindly if you have nothing to add to the discussion then don’t do this ^^

My definition of consent:
Basic consent: Mutual agreement between two parties, persons, to have intercourses. The agreement can be tacite, but in all cases the consent musn't be corrupted or influenced by motives such coercion or other reasons involved for one or both parties (use of violence, submission...). If these conditions aren't respected, then there's no consent.

If we enter in more details, consent depends on different parameters:
- the context, nature of relationships (marital, fwb or contractual relationships, other types...). Following the nature of relationships, the practices can change but the consent remains the same since it concerns the willingness of both parties/ # parties to the sexual practices and conditions.

In particular cases of monetary transactions involving sex (SW, prostitution...), in which basically consent is bought by money or advantages, there's risks for the individuals involved (client/s) to break accords or boundaries if there's any, and the issue occurs mainly due to the very nature of the transaction and difference in power dynamics of the parties implied. One buy the sexual services and the other have to satisfy their demands.
Even if there's consent in such context, this one can simply be broken by pushing the sw with more money/blackmail. It's difficult to determin reel consent or responsability in case of abuse, rape, even murder bc sw is very corruptible and often overlooked.

Tbh I don't really understand what That'sweird mean, lol.
I didn't know about the FRIES model, and I never had the opportunity to think about consent, but that's interesting. I like the comment section for that kind of discussion

please don't mind me cuz i'm laughing about what u didn't understand lololololol (≧∀≦)

Hm okay, can I ask again what you think about the FRIES model I sent you first? Each part of it? Is there anything there that you agree or disagree with? I want to see if we can agree on a baseline definition before we proceed because if we can’t then, well, we’ll have to discuss our definitions first LMFAO personally I think FRIES is generally a good model/good definition of consent that applies across the board regardless of the type of relationship between people. I think it ensures that sex between people is always fully consensual and results in the least amount of potential harm being done to any party involved.

So I see your definition mostly covers the “freely given” aspect of consent outlined in FRIES and the issues that can come about when money and, thus, an unbalanced power dynamic can get involved, because you can basically coerce someone into doing something they don’t actually necessarily want to do because you can just offer them more money. I agree with you! I think that money and power dynamics in general tend to muddy consent and it’s best to try to avoid those things or make those interactions as safe as possible.

Oh I just saw this. I’m glad we can discuss this then. It’s definitely important to have your own internal sense of consent straight too, not only for yourself but for interacting with others. Whether it’s about sexual situations or not it’s good to know your own boundaries and when they’ve been crossed.

You can still try to explain, I'm all ears :)

I just read the begining of your reply there, and yes,of course I'm gonna read it and tell you what I think and if I agree about it ;)

gonna see this interview (≧∀≦)

So I've read the FRIES model and I agree with everything that's written. It's well formulated, clear, complete and not too long to read.
There's nothing to add or suppress. Surely there's longer 'models' or essais on the subject, but if people could at least get access to this one it'll be good already. Everybody have their own view and definition of consent, but surely not to that extend, nor have the time, knowledges to do it.
Tbh many people still have limit awareness about consent, whether due to their upbringing, grooming or other reasons and knowing what is consent can veritably save someone from being exploited and abused.

I realize now that what I wrote is very basic and mostly based on the convo we had before, at least I said some pertinent points about sw. It's mostly thoughts based on observations, intuitive... though.

If I have a wish, I'd like for the FRIES model to maybe have a specific section consecrated to consent and sw ; that'll be interesting and helpful to see certainties and 'rules' existing regarding this risky activity.

I guess what you mean. I personally don't have problem with discussing about this kind of subject, in the contrary

ALRIGHT, U HAVE SUCH A STRONG HEART

Your words transpire cynism, but I really like debating about such topics :))

oh and I really really like ur topics btw, i'll see ur replies for sure

ヾ(☆▽☆)

I agree, I wish it was something taught more widely. At least here in the US, we have a huge issue with sexual education being incredibly bad in a lot of schools, if it’s even taught at all, and they don’t really cover the intricacies of consent and other things like that when discussing sex and relationships TT I only got my hands on this particular model in college myself, and it was only because I got on board for an internship specifically looking into sex ed. Things are very dire. But I’m glad that’s something we can agree on!!

In terms of things like sex work and the muddiness of consent there, I think that, it’s just like you said, consent generally becomes muddy as soon as money is involved. It’s not only an issue with sex work in particular, even—there are tons of jobs people are doing that they’d rather not do or wouldn’t do at all if not because they need the money. It’s just that it comes up the most with sex work and I think it’s for a variety of reasons…oh actually there is another model that sort of tries to address some of what you’re talking about https://www.idcprofessionals.com/blog/defining-consent-from-fries-to-crisp

Either way though, if we have a definition we agree on, we can then begin to discuss the sex Dan and Jaekyung have in terms of the model(s) and whether or not certain tenants are being violated.

Ah I guess one more thing I’ll ask before we get into it, do you think someone can or should be physically forced to work? For example, let’s say I’m working at a grocery store as a cashier, but one day I decide not to show up to work. Maybe I’m sick, maybe I decide I just don’t want to go in that day. Does/Should my boss then have the right to show up to my house and physically drag me to the store and force me to do cashier work?

don't analyze their sex because that happened, and Mingwa will write hot intimate scenes together (we'll forget their first time and how Dan bleeds like any virgin vagina, things will get better like any yaoi-romance manhwa)

I also agree on the Fries model, however let's not forget that Dan and Jk are not US citizens,they are south Koreans. So, let's also explore the Laws and jurisdictions of south Korea regarding their matter.(?) . Even in America,every state's law is different.

Anyways,good morning Akaito, baby love ⁄(⁄ ⁄·⁄ω⁄·⁄ ⁄)⁄

i think this discussion would be longer than my miserable life

My Jinx Angel (〜￣△￣)〜

I don’t really understand what you’re saying here and…no, I won’t ignore their first time together. If we’re asking the question of whether or not there’s any rape in this webtoon then we have to look at all the sex scenes that happen here, no?

Also, with both vaginal and anal sex, a person shouldn’t bleed if they’re properly relaxed, aroused, and prepared well. That’s a very common misconception about sex.

if it has a rape or not so what can we do??? it's the author's wish
i agree with what u have said but JK has a humongous cock it's not his fault ig and also i think he stretched his tiny asshole and used lube so yeah,,,,,,,,,,

I’m not talking about the law, though. We’re not talking about whether or not Jaekyung would be found guilty by the government for a crime, we’re talking about interpersonal relationships and how, ideally, things maybe ought to be defined. And it’s also precisely because the law is different everywhere that it’d be hard to pin down. Not to mention, the law and law enforcement are not infallible things—the law can’t encapsulate every experience, and it’s all made by humans who have their own biases. It was only recently that marital rape became outlawed in all 50 US states, for example. I don’t know how you feel about it, but I think it would be fucked up to say to people who were raped by their spouses prior to it formally becoming a crime that what they experienced wasn’t rape just because the law didn’t think so.

gonna sleep, goodbye~

It’s not about whether or not we as readers can do something about it, obviously there isn’t—but understanding the nature of the sex between Dan and Jaekyung has implications about their dynamic overall and how we talk about it. Obviously consensual but rough sex is very different from rape. MangaSanctuary said originally, from what I remember, that people, mostly fans of Jinx, will always have a knee-jerk reaction to others calling Jaekyung a rapist if they don’t actually come with the facts and evidence that he is so—so I’m trying to clear the air.

Also, Jaekyung…is definitely at fault for how bad their first time was together. I think you can say that some discomfort on Dan’s behalf would’ve been inevitable because yeah Jaekyung is huge and the overall circumstances could not have been further from arousing for Dan, but let’s not act like Jaekyung didn’t just shove himself inside Dan? Not to mention he didn’t even try to get Dan to relax lmfao.

Also Dan and Jaekyung are two men. The issue of rape and sexual assault and women's rights in general in South Korea is already...if you know, you know. If you don't know, in short: South Korean society is quite conservative. If things are already bad for women then, legally speaking, I find it highly unlikely that the government would give a fuck about gay people with regards to these issues. And similarly I would find it very fucked up to say to a man who was forced to have any type of sex against his will that what he went through wasn't rape or sexual assault just because it was done to him by a man and the law doesn't acknowledge that.

It's 2:50 am in France, so will reply you guys tomorrow

Rape is not a simple issue to talk about without the full knowledge of the Law, same with consent. I'm just stating that it's best to explore the Laws and jurisdictions of South Korea since the involves are from there. This is a sensitive issue. There's no marital rape in jinx since Jk and Dan are not married couple.
I agree that Jk did not respect Dan regarding that matter,but I'm not a legal practitioner,a lawyer to conclude that what he did to Dan is Rape. There once a commenter/reader who said that there was no rape in TOXIN because "nameless" did "that" in order to get his revenge to the one who killed his mother. Nameless,wanted to be Garon's painter to be able to have his revenge to Garon but he did not offer his body to Garon. But the reader criticized Jinx for being a rape manhwa. That was why, whenever I encounter this kind of topic I always depend on the law.

Before 2012,only "woman" could be the victim of rape, because it was considered that only women possessed female genitals. But since the technology developed, cases of transgender women ( many of whom are still legally male ) becoming rape victims have begun to emerge,so the law changed to define the rape victim as a "person" instead of a woman. This is from the south Korea Law

I didn't bring up marital rape to say that what occurs between Dan and Jaekyung is marital rape, I was just bringing it up as an example of my point that "the law can’t encapsulate every experience, and it’s all made by humans who have their own biases," and that just because something that happens to someone isn't legally defined doesn't mean it didn't happen to them. Yes there are legal definitions of things but there are also more colloquial definitions of things. Is there a legal definition for a "cake"? No, but we all generally know what a cake is and can distinguish between what is or isn't a cake. We can also dispute the definition of what a cake is. This can happen with legal definitions, too—of course that's part of why we have trials in the first place, and things like (in the US) Supreme Court cases, because even per-established, written laws with all their definitions still need to be interpreted by people, and sometimes it is found that, actually, the current legal definition needs some changing or clarifying.

That's why I bring up FRIES in discussions with people. Again, we're talking about this interpersonal relationship, not whether or not Jaekyung should go to jail. I want to find common ground between myself and the person I'm chatting with, not the law per se.

I would say though that yeah I think the situation between the MC and Garon in Toxin, while messier than in Jinx because of the MC's motivations, is still rape. But I feel like with Toxin the dynamic between MC and Garon is just...much more complex than what happens between Dan and Jaekyung, too.

Anyway yes I saw this and this was precisely part of the point I'm making. Yes of course NOW we can have this discussion about whether what Jaekyung did to Dan was rape or not but had we been in 2011 or 2010 then what? Like I said, gay men wouldn't have even been considered. Frankly I think the law as it stands (at least from the site I'm seeing) seems to still neglect certain cases (victims of rape who are men, where the perpetrator is a woman) but fine. If we want to play the law game, we can. I am guessing we're both looking at this: https://seoullawgroup.com/sexual-crimes-korea/

But I'm also looking at the other article they have: https://seoullawgroup.com/rape-law-korea/

Apparently according to Korean law the act also has to happen through significant enough violence and intimidation, basically where it's almost impossible for the victim to resist the perpetrator. First of all, I have to point out that this legal definition of rape does not include cases of, say, coercion or manipulation—a case like, person A kept saying no to sex with person B over and over again, but person B kept asking, and eventually person A (reluctantly) gave in just to get them to stop wouldn't count as rape, for example. Though under FRIES, it definitely would be. I'm also already seeing articles about how people within Korea, especially women, but others, too, do not find the current legal definition to be...great. For some of the reasons I've already discussed.

Fine, though. If we look at Dan and Jaekyung's first time together, it could very likely count as imitative-rape by Korean law's standards. Imitative-rape is defined as when a person "by means of violence and intimidation, inserts his or her sexual organ into another's bodily part (excluding a genital organ), such as mouth or anus, or inserts his or her finger or other bodily part (excluding a genital organ) or any instrument into another's genital organ or anus." Yes, Dan does agree to have sex with Jaekyung for money, but let's not forget that Dan saw Jaekyung slam some other dude's head into the wall before this, that Jaekyung forces Dan from his shower and throws him to the bed, and that Jaekyung threatens to hurt Dan at least twice during their first time together. To me that seems like a substantial amount of direct violence and intimidation at play as well. And then, of course, Jaekyung puts his penis in Dan's ass.

Under Korean law yeah, maybe things after this point wouldn't legally count as rape anymore, but this first instance seems...indisputable to me.

Right?? This is what I'm talking about. Their law is somewhat idk how to explain. Have you seen the indecent act,have you read that? https://resourcehub.bakermckenzie.com/en/resources/fighting-domestic-violence/asia/south-korea/topics/1legal-provisions

Also, sorry, Domosama...I know you don't believe that only people versed in the law can determine what someone gets to call their experience. If I went through a non-consensual experience with someone else, would I not be able to say I was sexually assaulted or raped? Just because I didn't go to a lawyer about it first? If I talked to you about it, would you really tell me that I couldn't call what happened to me by its name just because I didn't go to court for it? Would you say that YOU couldn't call it such just because you weren't sure about the legalities?

What I don't like is people giving judgement easily without researching the impact of the issue or the topic. That was why I said that Rape is not a simple issue to talk about without the full knowledge of the law. It's a sensitive topic. Every state,every country's law is different. The Law can judge us, but we cannot judge the Law. This issue is about the word RAPE, I'm not saying it's about jk or what he did to Dan. I also brought the topic regarding the reader who commented about Toxin, saying there's no rape in there while there's rape in jinx. To remind other readers that rape is not a joke that is sweet like a cake. I even said that Jk did not respect Dan regarding that matter. Now you know the difference between the law of your country and the law of south Korea.
Dan can also not sue jk because both of them will go to jail. I'm not bringing the Law here to imprison jk or to be his lawyer,but to let other readers know that before we judge,we should know what the law says.
I read the manhwa WAREHOUSE where ml kidnapped, imprisoned,and raped mc. The ml surrendered in the police,but mc burned the warehouse. The evidence was burned together with the warehouse,so the ml was not sentenced. The police freed him, because there was no evidence and testimony of the mc. Testimonies and witnesses are one of the biggest factors to sentence the perpetrator. However, even if there are witnesses but if the victim refused to give his or her testimonies, especially when the victim is not a minor,then it's hard to pursue the case.
I really pity Dan. If not because of his life circumstances,he won't go to jk and sold his body. If not because of poverty,if not because of that doctor who banned him from getting a decent job in the hospital,if not because of his grandma's illness,and if not because of those bully loan sharks,Dan won't met jk in the first place. I'm not blaming Dan,not even judging him for his decision. Jinx is not just about how jk treated Dan wrongly/poorly,but also their life circumstances.
And also,I did not said that, I don't believe that only people versed in the law can determine what someone gets to call their experience. The law is a guide. And people should not judge easily or made a joke about the word rape. Ofc,if Dan said that he was raped by Jk,jk should be deemed accountable.


Akaito, do you believe in superstition or in science?

“it’s the author’s wish” yeah and it’s natural to wonder about the intention of the author when they include certain things in their story??? and what they might’ve been trying to say or do when including that thing, if anything???

Do you really think the people coming here calling Jaekyung a rapist are doing it as a joke? Do you really think they’re not taking the issue seriously? Do you think just because they didn’t go out of their way to research Korean law specifically—which would likely also call what Dan went through a type of rape—they’re coming in here not knowing what they’re talking about or taking the word “rape” lightly? Domosama, I doubt that even YOU knew about the legal definition under Korean law until now, and I know the other people arguing that was Jaekyung does to Dan certainly didn’t have any legal basis from which to stand on. So are we all full of shit or not?

Also I’ve brought up several times how the law can and often does fail people. You absolutely can and should judge the law. So many people do not come forward about being raped precisely because the law and the people enforcing it fails them. This discussion is just one very very very narrow example of how the law is not an absolute authority, at all. Or do I have to go to extremes again to prove my point?

The people who are arguing that what Jaekyung does to Dan is rape are operating on the very simple and straightforward principle that no means no, and that any sexual activity done without someone’s consent is nonconsensual—therefore rape or sexual assault. Again, it isn’t and never was about the law specifically. To be frank yeah maybe both of them would go to jail, but honestly, the law would probably be more on Jaekyung’s side for several reasons. Or rather, this so-called objective thing you keep calling the law could easily be bent or negated in his favor given his money and status. This whole discussion as of now IS about whether or not what Jaekyung does to Dan is consensual or not so I really don’t get your point.

Yeah if the situation were something more complex like what we see in Toxin then there could be a more fleshed out conversation about the dynamics between Dan and Jaekyung and each of them as characters, but here as in with many other things in this webtoon, there’s not actually much nuance to be parsed from the situation. With Toxin and the messiness of MCs and Garon’s relationship you can talk about who actually has the upper hand in the situation at any given moment, for example, and how the two are impacting each other. Where is any of that with Jinx? All Dan does is endure Jaekyung’s selfish whims. He’s never shown to have any leverage over Jaekyung at any point in season 1 at least—it’s all on Jaekyung’s terms. Dan doesn’t even ever attempt anything underhanded like Toxin’s MC does. Yeah the webtoon might not have meant to be about how poorly Jawkyung treats Dan but it’s not my fault that that’s literally almost all we see for the first 50+ chapters of the story.

And frankly this is something that I feel like was such wasted potential. Maybe we’ll see it happen in season 2, I doubt it, but we never actually get to see Jaekyung struggle with his jinx. We never get to see him lose a match because of it or perform poorly because of it or anything, to the point where the stupid thing might as well not even be real. Yeah, whatever, Dan’s a totally fucking pushover—even he could’ve still used it as some type of equalizer. Hey, Jaekyung, if you’re not going to treat me halfway decently, I’m just going to drop this whole deal. No, it never happens. Dan is too fucking sad and poor to make any real demands and Jaekyung has literally anyone he wants at his beck and call. No one gives an actual shit what he does. What the fuck kind of stakes are those? Zero tension whatsoever. It’s all so one-fucking-sided and that’s why it’s so LAUGHABLE that this is even a debate that needs to be had. But whatever I guess I and everyone else needs to kneel down and suck Jaekyung’s fat millionaire cock because he was so benevolent as to let his sex toy live with him out of convenience instead of letting him rot on the streets or something. Don’t piss me off.

Things advanced so fast that now we've reached already the 3th page...?
And with my poor frenglish it's not easy to express everything I'd like to say :'> But here I'll give my thoughts.
I like how this discussion is linked to that other we have ("I like Dan, but...').

When I first saw this manhwa of Migwa, tbh I was disappointed by the plot they've picked (you know how artists authors never have only one scenarios to pick from in their pocket): there were already many bl manhwas at the time with this trope (rich big ml/poor endebted mc...). "The art had progressed so much, but why this cliché story...?" But seeing how it gets so popular anyway, I find myself curious about the outcome of this plot and how will progress their relationship. So, I think my pov is pretty neutral compared to vast majority who either hate Jjk with passion or are fans of Jinx/Mingwa.
About the smut, I never found them hot and mostly tried to skip them, but couldn't anyway bc the comments are filled with debats about them, with the topic about rape regularly brought on the table... with already very detailed descriptions of the smut to determin whether there's rape in their s interactions or not done by readers.

As we know, to determin whether there's rape or not in this PRECISE case (Jinx) and other similar cases is not simple, we're really walking on sword's edge here. Though these contracts that engage sexual transactions in exchange of money/favors are just that complicated, unless there's clear boundaries established with no one to break them, under any conditions. The issue, Achille Talon, lies within the nature of transaction itsef, where consent like the rest can be bought. There's no limit to the type of 'services' you want to get, as long as you have the financial means. When there's money, there's always a way, making this sector profundly corrupted and very hard to rescue the victims. Even rescued, victims can go back to their pimp (Stockholm Syndrom), and mostly for the (easy) money. Prostitution is always plagued with abuses, torture even killings ; the ground profits of all the failures of the law and system, fail parenting, fails of society... the struggles of competent structures to find responsabilities, even more when victims refuse to fill complaint...
Yes, this ground is a Big swamp. It requests a lot of human ressources, surveillance, and infortunately police and judges are overpowered and inefficient most of the time. It's like that everywhere, and the fact that's SK doesn't change much that reality aside for sure that gay relationships aren't even acknowledged with their own issues.
I thought it's important to reminds that context regarding sw.

I told about how readers already fought and wrote detailed analyses of the smuts to know whether there's rape or not. In fact, I also avoided them, but yeah, I know like you such 'studies' were already done, certainly more than one time here.
That's why I won't do that and just give my simple and honest opinion about the topic.

Are the smut in Jinx, indeed rape...?
If they're not rape, they're forced to the very least. That's why, personally I don't find them arousing: Jjk just put his huge thing and drill it in mc's butts. It feels dry, rushed and painful to see ; the sex the mma practicer has is only pleasurable to himself and is strictly selfish. And he's not there to care anyway!!
If Dan managed to cum anyway from this, that's certainly from pure physical reactions at first, and bc he started to have feelings for Jjk after.

In regard of their mercantile transactions, there's no rape bc the intercourses are motivated by mutual benefices to both parties, as we're aware. An accord was made and both agreed to the terms: exchanges of money against sex. So, by that, the concept of rape seems out of the question. Though, considering the circumstances of how this contract was made, and the very reason why, the idea that Dan's was forced to accept the offer bc he didn't have any other choice questions effectively if he wasn't forced to agree to the sexual acts against his own will. And this is even more relevant how their first encountering happened: a terrifying Jjk had just beaten a prostitute out of the appartement for the lacking skills of this latter to satisfy his expectations. This constitutes a clear aggraving element: Dan could've felt threatened in the moment (for his life), and was pressured after by the limited time to accept the offer to sleep with the mma guy for money.
The difficulty of the question resides in the fact that even if Dan was pressed and pushed to accept fastly, Jjk gave him also the possibility to refuse at any moment. People still call him a rapist because of how he pressed Dan to have sex with him, his rudeness and violent behavior, although the sportif is always behaving like trash to everybody, not just him...
Though this is transactional intercourses, there can be mutual respect ; respect of boundaries etc... However even if Jjk never Beats him and, in the contrary, had a multiple times helped and saved him... it feels like he just sees the older guy like a servant one time and another time a sexual object another time like his property. Dan never knew, for exemple, about that bdsm-esque situation the asshole has put him through for Heesung to witness...
This entitled and cruel attitude towards Dan, that direspect, is what makes many to still see him as a rapist.

But all this, we already know it all. Right...?
And it's about time I give my avis.
I know that many will hate me for my answer, but strictly regarding their circumstances and the nature of their relationship, I think there's not rape in the strict sense we see it. Rape implies that someone feels violated AND reports it to the authorities ; fills a complaint to gain justice and reparation. Though as we know, this is not what happens with Dan. Forcing him to admit he was raped won't do too. Even less, since he started to like the dude who treated him like that.
That's also why, while prostitution is supposedly banned in a lot of countries, its existence is tolerated or ignored due to the mercantile nature of the sex. Unless the victim themself make a complain, no one will mind this kind of problem that they think entitled to that field.

Though there was forced intercourses under certain no negligeable circumstances from Jjk. He pressured Dan and took advantages of his absolutely misery; there's 0 terms established between them, which is not normal. I'm not very versed in law infortunately so I don't know much, but I think there should be something to punish coercive sex like this.
With indefinite sexual contracts like theirs, there should be some rules established between both parties. It's not some one-shots sw here, but a long term sexual relationship where two persons live understand the same roof, btw. The fact there's no terms like limitations to the intercourses is an open door to abuses of all kinds, which is against basic human rights. Maybe THIS, is the failure where we can start to built arguments against such case. Dan is also at fault for not thinking about them (terms of transaction), and even though he did it's clear Jjk may refuse seeing the amount of money he's given to the guy etc... He likes raw sex, btw, which can be a problem/risk if he's used to sleep with a lot of # people.

In any case, rape or not, ultimately the decision will be for Dan to make. Will he? No, seeing where the story goes. Agree, it's very infortunate that Dan did nothing else apart comply, obey and blame himself even when he's not at fault. He could express, yes, how he dislikes the way he's being treated by that huge dick, but it seems he never did (?)...

Lastly for my long tirades...
In many occasions Dan was roughed up by Jjk, pressed by the mma guy to have intercourses with him. I have no problem to say that under some circumstances he was forced, was raped effectively. But what will make me fight for him more is for him to also express his distress and disgust of being raped. Even understand the s contract thing... I need for Dan to express himself more, even cries in his own corner, but did he? My guy is a victim of misery, and through this striking poverty, of himself

I agree the plot is very cliche and I honestly wouldn’t care this much if not for these types of discussions precisely because it is so cliche. I seriously just cannot stand the way people are arguing for Jaekyung not being a rapist—a lot of their arguments come down to the same rhetoric that ends up blaming victims for their own rape and sexual assault, and some of them will even basically admit to you that they think you can do pretty much anything to anyone as long as you pay them. That, in fact, it’s a wealthy person’s right to exploit underprivileged people if they want or “need” to. It’s too fucked up for me to entertain in-betweens where there are none. So I do genuinely appreciate you pointing out the broader systemic issues and nuances that make Dan’s situation so coercive—a lot of people here won’t or can’t even acknowledge that much. But there’s also a reason why I asked about FRIES and whether or not you think someone should be physically forced to work.

The thing is that maybe if Dan were, I don’t know, somewhat more compliant with what was going on with him, then maybe we’d really exist in more of a grey area. But the fact of the matter is many times, Dan straight up tells Jaekyung to stop. Even moving into the time they established their contract, there’s a chapter where Dan physically hits Jaekyung because he wants it to stop so bad. If you agree with FRIES then you’ve already agreed that consent is REVERSIBLE, it can be taken back at any time. A contract doesn’t negate that. A contract that negates your ability to say NO to work is akin to slavery. Jaekyung at that point would have every right to tell Dan that he won’t pay him anymore and dissolve their contract. He does NOT have the right to force him to work, or have sex with him while he’s non-compliant. That is still just rape.

"Rape implies that someone feels violated AND reports it to the authorities ; fills a complaint to gain justice and reparation."

This is disrespectful not only to the story but to so, so many very real life rape and sexual assault victims. I cannot capitalize on this enough. There are so many reasons why people don't come forward or go through with legal proceedings after they've been raped or sexually assaulted. Like I've been trying to explain to Domosama so many times throughout this thread, the justice system, at least in the US, is shit. And I know for a fact that in South Korea, when it comes to convicting their sexual abusers, things might just be even fucking WORSE there because of the absolutely dogshit state of women's rights over there. Rape/SA victims often feel too ashamed to come forward because of the stigma many societies have around it. Sometimes victims are simply afraid of or even afraid FOR the perpetrator; the perpetrator might have intimidated them into silence, the perpetrator might be a friend or family member or someone beloved in some broader community, so the victim might feel bad about even reporting them, or feel that they will end up being persecuted by their own friends/family/community. Sometimes they just don't want their loved one to be punished even though they NO DOUBT FEEL VIOLATED. The legal process in and of itself can RE-TRAUMATIZE victims. Sometimes there's simply no evidence or not enough evidence for legal action to be taken. ALL KINDS OF REASONS WHY people do not pursue legal action. You want to sit here and tell me the OVERWHELMING amount of people who don't pursue legal action for having been raped simply weren't raped? Then what?

And Dan most definitely did feel violated by what Jaekyung does to him. The first time these two are together, he ends up laying in bed, unable to sleep for like, a week, just because he feels so shitty physically AND emotionally after the fact. Several times when Dan is doing stuff with Jaekyung, he has flashbacks to when his former boss sexually assaulted him/attempted to do so. Do you think it's an arbitrary detail that was added to the story? That Dan thinks of the guy who first sexually assaults him while Jaekyung subjects him to his whims? Why do you think his brain is making that connection? But let's be honest; Mingwa of course isn't interested in exploring a story like that to its fullest, and certainly she's not interested in exploring a story where Dan pursues any legal action. Let me tell you how it works in America at least—Dan would likely still be screwed even if he pressed charges. We have a convicted rapist coming in as our next president of the United States. As if the legal system would give a fuck about some impoverished nobody like Dan over an established and wealthy athlete like Jaekyung. Dan wouldn't even be able to afford himself an attorney here. God don't piss me fucking off.

And Dan DOES express his discomfort with how he's being treated, that first time around and several times afterwards. He tells Jaekyung to wait or to stop or that it hurts or any number of things literally almost every time they're doing shit together, Jaekyung just doesn't give a fuck, he's a selfish and entitled sadist. Even when Jaekyung is the one to ask Dan if he wants anything to change about how they have sex, and Dan asks for them to use condoms, Jaekyung just refuses. If Dan stopped complaining about it it's simply because he learned nothing would change even if he did. Come on.

Like I agree as we get further into the story and Dan develops "feelings" for Jaekyung, things regarding consent might get a bit blurrier, but let's not act like anything before that point wasn't rapey. Oh, and, sex that is coerced is just rape. Let's just get that one down now. And yes I agree the law should recognize it as such and it should be punished more harshly.

You see, maybe my pov concerning some details related to the smut scenes are no very acurate.
You tell how Dan was asking Jjk to stop, but I can't remember that, as I said I skipped most of the smut scenes even though I remember that he was always roughed up whether they were in the bed or outside the bed.
So if Dan had asked him to stop, he should stop and re/negociate the terms later or find someone else. Though let's not forget that Dan can do as much: negociate the conditions and drop their 'cooperation'.
There, Jjk's acting like a basic ml of a bl and Dan also, there's not so much thoughts from author's perspective than this.
However, we're aware that deep down and even though he's mistreated he can't refuse: the life of his grandma is at stake, he needs a lot of money... Looks like I condone their actions, no, that's simply bc Dan has no choice at all and his entire survival dépends on the mma guy, not just for his dying gran...

About what you asked about the sick employee and his employer, of course this latter has no right to force anyone to come to work, less again if the person's sick. It's not like he can't hire other people and there's rules within workplaces for a reason.

No, no, I AGREE with you entirely on this, from this perspective.
I don't know if I can blame it on my frenglish, but I was insensitive there. I didn't consider this question from all aspects and acknowledge that my opinion was poor and lacks empathy. Of course, I totally can understand why a victim won't or couldn't file report to the police.

About the story, I'm less invested than you guys, there's passages that I just look rapidly and others that I forgot a bit unless like here, when you tell them again. So sorry, maybe I'm not the best interlocutor for this topic, but I do feel empathy for the victims of rape and acknowledge that Dan was forced to have sex and comply to Jjks demandes against his will, under his absolute need for money. He was raped, there's no doubt to that, but as we know things are complicated due to the transactional relationship they have, and that's the issue.

Yeah dude let’s try actually reading the scenes before having a full-fledged debate about whether or not what Jaekyung does to Dan actually constitutes rape or not. I even went back and reread while taking NOTES because so many people kept trying to argue that I basically wasn’t seeing and reading what I was seeing and reading with my own two eyes. I can pull out specific bits and pieces of dialogue and the context surrounding them demonstrating my point. I am happy and willing to post those notes and we can really sincerely hash this out down to the line if we want to. I am willing to allot nuance where there is nuance but on several scenes I just can’t; that would be to compromise my own definition of consent and rape and I don’t see any good reason to do that.

And yeah I’m glad we agree a boss also doesn’t have the right to force someone to do work if they can’t and don’t want to—again, this is just what Jaekyung does to Dan. Because simply put if Dan’s work is sex work and he’s forced to have sex then, well. And of course depending on where a sex worker is working there are rules and regulations there, too. So even under the whole paradigm of it being sex work, Jaekyung is still behaving unethically. But yeah of course unfortunately Dan can’t do jack diddly shit about it because he’s so bad off. Even now in season two he doesn’t have any place to call home anymore, his apartment in the projects is no doubt demolished so after his grandma dies he won’t have anywhere to really go. He’s just turbo-fucked.

Okay, thank you for acknowledging this. I appreciate it a lot. You’re reading loud and clear by the way, your English is fine, this part was just a bit ;;

Ok with that too.
Maybe article to punish coercive sex already exist but the thing is: is it applied? Or the victims would need to go to extrem extend to obtain justice?

Jjk needs to change, not just to get Dan's ass back home, but change for himself to become a better version of himself. I'm waiting for the redeeming bc there will be a lot of work to do, lol. The author's made him so undrinkable...

I mean even cases of rape where circumstances are much more clear cut aren’t taken super seriously, at least here in the US. I remember this awful news story about a girl being serially abused by her stepfather(?) who went to the police about it, only for them to spin it around on HER and make HER write a letter of apology to the stepfather. She had to wait and let him do it to her again so she could record it so she had more concrete evidence to show to get that guy charged. It’s just awful. So if a minor in that straightforward of a situation isn’t taken seriously, an adult in a coercive situation…yeah :/

But yeah that’s why despite all my issues with this story I’m sticking around wondering how on earth the author intends to try to spin him into being somehow better than he is right now. To me obviously Jaekyung needs to work through whatever happened to him in the past but like, he needs to be deeply, deeply humbled. From my perspective the guy is just utterly lacking in empathy. I don’t believe he was even born rich, I think he was self-made, but it’s like he’s forgotten where he’s come from, so someone like Dan is utterly beneath him (and I have quotes on this, too ;]). That’s why to me it felt like the ideal redemption for me would’ve been to see this guy truly lose everything, or almost everything—put him in or near Dan’s place so he can experience for himself how awful he’s been to Dan.

And he, no, the story overall needs to seriously acknowledge all of what Dan was put through—this, I have low expectations for, though. It connects back to the whole Dan being passive thing. At this point it doesn’t have to do with Dan himself but the way he’s written, the way these things are treated by the story in general. On one hand yes you have Dan seeming to experience very real trauma from his experience being sexually assaulted by his former doctor, but then on the other hand like…he falls in love with Jaekyung after everything Jaekyung does to him without even questioning his own feelings? Lol? No trauma from all that, supposedly, but he only feels guilt for having “fucked up” with handling Jaekyung? Come on now…

I just think it would be satisfying for Dan to actually show signs of having been fucked up mentally by Jaekyung’s actions, seriously, and for Jaekyung to see the lasting impact he’s had on Dan and feel bad about it, and then go out of his way to try to make up for it, you know? Like they try to have a more equal relationship but Dan keeps flinching away from Jaekyung or Dan very obviously keeps trying to just do whatever he can to please Jaekyung, and Jaekyung sees this and feels awful, and he has to actively keep trying to keep Dan assured that he’s not in any danger anymore, and help make Dan put himself first.

I feel your enthousiasm to demonstrate your arguments and I'm with you on that, but sorry if there's something you can't ask of me is to undergo these smut scenes again
Even for studies purposes!! It'll feel like I'm being punished if I had to look at them again, really. You're so studious and even take notes, that's formidable.
Though I don't know in details the manhwa, I think I know enough to discuss about it, so we can still discuss about it if you want.

If you have the time, maybe you can look at the last video of Omerta and see if it's English translated. It's about prostitution of underage girls. These girls can have till 15 passes (clients) a day! What had lead them to this? It can't be only for money or bags.
When I sée this, it's hard to believe that such thing as ethical behavior can exist in these workplaces where prostitution takes place, or they're apanage of the high-class escorts only (?) I don't want to agree with these people that speak like money can buy someone's life, but when you see so much GREED and underage willing to sell their skin like that for more money is mortifying...

Yes, Dan was made to have absolutely nothing... :'(

Forgot to add that someone of the girls are being trafficked, others are trapped in the circuits by bad people and others are doing it as 'independant' (which is certainly the 'safest' of the 3 options...)

Bahaha I can’t blame you for that. I’m just a crazy person who is desensitized to this type of thing and also likes to be right, that’s why I could go back and reread and take notes. I did this kind of research before too, anyway, so lmao. And I mean, I simply wanted to see if I could see what other people were seeing and just…think about the story more. I seem to have stopped my more detail-oriented reread at chapter 13. Lots to be said even up to that point, about Dan and Jaekyung and their dynamic overall. I think I found myself a bit more curious? Interested in? Jaekyung, but also just…amused by how tone-deaf and dumb he is he’s just such a character.

But yeah sex work is so…ugh it’s a very complex topic there’s so many different things at play when it comes to discussing it. Obviously minors shouldn’t participate at all. But how to make it more ethical, if it’s even possible to make it safer and more ethical, everyone has their own perspective. Ultimately I think yeah there needs to be more rules and regulations and protections for sex workers in general and that anyone in that industry should be in charge of themselves (stuff like OnlyFans where for the most part people are their own boss) otherwise it’s just too too easy for it to slip into exploitation and abuse.

I personally don't give a fk about the law or anything related, I distance myself from reality, I'm a dumb fujoshi waiting for 2 handsome men to make out, I maybe lack of empathy coz I don't care if ukes suffer, authors love to make them weak, I trust them and trust the fact that everything is going to end happily. My questions aren't "what is consent?" but "when are they going to ****???". I'm well aware that this manhua has some illegal things going on and is full of bullshit-_-, nothing can surprise me, coz it's fiction and the author can do whatever the hell she wants, certainly based on real life facts etc but still bullshit, if i want to make a girl with big d or a man getting pregnant I can... I don't analyse this fiction by comparing it to reality, I'm not "ooh that's illegal", "ah, this shouldn't happen like this".C'est se gâcher l'expérience...
People take this too serious and condemn fictional characters by saying he's a rapist, or worst, saying that ppl reading this accept it and enjoy this violence even irl, which is a creepy way of thinking... I don't like debating with Akaito, coz I find myself talking HOURS about the misfortunes of humanity when all I want know is wanting to know wtf happened to Dan's parents... Do I need to understand and read an article of 50 pages about consent and hear this dude show off how "intellectual" he is for me to understand and appreciate this manhua? Mmmmmh I think not! Btw instead of debating with randoms in this illegal website you should publish your thoughts make it a book Akaito

Tu es de France, Shiki ?

I think that whatever... each has their expectations and appreciation of a story. We can only share our view and hope to find some resonance with the other, but it's impossible to make others adhere to our opinion 100%. We're all different, after all.
For me the smut isn't the most important, it's like the cherry on top of the cake. Before that I need to savor the cake and appreciate how the ingredients were all mixed together to obtain such a tasty cake. If the cake doesn't taste good then I can still eat the cherry, but will still feel hungry.

Some like to think of stories as pure fictions, so whatever goes is fine for them, I guess. They don't have much expectations because they're open to everything and many possibilities.
Some others like reading original fictions too, but they need to find in these stories some common grounds in reality and, certainly, pertinence in the resolution of the # problematics.
Both can read the same stuff, but will they everything understand each others?

I'm sorry for just replying now. Actually,I read your first 4 comments above and I agree with them. I don't want to give my personal understanding about consent because I don't want to give false information to other readers. Ofc, it's a sensitive issue after all. And I just wanna say that I have no issues with the readers who stick to " no means no" basis. Well, they're from America or Europe. I don't know in some Asian countries but in my country and in SK there's still no basis as this. In SK,what jk did to Dan can be either imitative rape or indecent act. Still punishable tho. I gave an example about the kind of readers who judged without the full knowledge of the law. And there are readers who joked about rape like " idc if you're raped,gang raped or gang banged" . It's not really funny even if it's just a joke.

Remember that I don't hate you and I won't. We have similarities and differences,and I like that. I don't rely on my own understanding about sensitive issues that's why I'm dependent in the Law.

Ah! Si tu parles français écris-moi en fr xD c'est une plaie l'anglais, je m'efforce mais c'est chiant, les mangas ça passe encore voire ça en vaut carrément la peine, mais de lire des pavé de fou furieux en anglais là...
Oui, tlm est différent mais les gens ont tendance à croire que tout le monde pense comme eux ou doivent penser comme eux. Perso, je me triture pas la tête quand je lis un manga, si je le fais c'est pour m'évader de la triste réalité. J'évite au max de me bourrer le crâne de futilités existentielles (mais en vérité ce que je juge futile ne l'est pas non plus pour les autres)... Une personne qui raisonne autant et qui cherche réponse à tout comme cette personne devrait pas être ici, à mon humble avis, de 1 c'est du gâchis._. De 2, il pourrait mettre à profit tout ça ailleurs dans un média plus intéressant et adéquat pour lui.

This is the reason why I like Shiki. You know how to separate reality from fiction,or fiction from reality. You're just enjoying everything here without any issues irl. Sometimes we forgot that we're here to enjoy,not to debate. Ily

(´༎ ʖ ༎ `)♡ It touches me. You're an angel. I feel like you can understand every human being !! Love youuu too!

I really mean it ╥﹏╥ (づ￣ ³￣)づ

I’d rather analyze and talk about other aspects of this webtoon, too—and in fact I have in some other threads and in topics I’ve made on my own. I’ve even praised aspects of it where I find it worth praising. Like I said from the very beginning, I felt and still feel the webtoon has wasted potential as a story, but if people enjoy it as is, they enjoy it, and that’s fine. It’s just that the one thing I cannot do is sit back and watch people get away with saying that rape is not rape when it’s rape. It’s not about condemning Jaekyung or whatever, or the people who like him, it’s about understanding his character and the story better and combating rape apologism. I may never have left a single comment on this webtoon if not for that last part.

Anyway I’ve talked before about doing research on this exact topic. I’m not interested in writing a book about this in particular but I’ve done my fair share of presenting on it already. But yeah I’ll finish one of my own stories and publish it at some point. You can read what little fanfiction I’ve published if you’d like.

I’m like this too. I was talking with a friend about this but I don’t think I’ve ever been a fan of stories where romance is the main thing that’s happening—I mean I’ll read and write my silly little porn without plots every now and then for sure but I love when a story and its characters are grounded in some good lore and worldbuilding, when the dynamics between characters are crunchy and messy and complex. And then they sort it out and they bang. Or maybe they don’t sort it out. As long as I feel like the story was told well—that the way the plot unfolded and the characters behaved made sense—then I can be satisfied with a story.

Not to be an American but if our culture is the only other culture operating from the “no means no” basis then I guess our culture is simply superior.

Really though, Domosama, I would encourage you if you’re interested to look into South Korean gender politics and issues like this. Things like the Burning Sun scandal and Nth Room…sincerely if what you’re saying is true then like yeah it is an issue if the law doesn’t actually reflect a definition of rape/nonconsent that properly protects its people from harm.

What does separating fiction from reality actually mean to you guys? You keep saying it and at this point I’m having trouble understanding what you mean. Can I not analyze a story and its characters and draw parallels where I see them anymore? Are all stories just floating in some la la land untouched by the reality we all live in?

I’m genuinely asking. It was to my understanding that what this meant was to not assume that an artist condones everything they put into their fiction in real life. Or that of course, what occurs in fiction shouldn’t always be mimicked in reality—and just because someone enjoys something in fiction doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily going to mimic it in reality. Or that obviously, a fictional character isn’t an actual real person who can actually harm or be harmed. I don’t see where in this definition it says you can’t feel real emotions about the fictional stories you’re reading. Or draw parallels between fiction and the reality you live in. Or to simply analyze what’s going on in the story and ask questions about why things happen the way they do, if they could’ve happened differently, why author may have made certain choices…

So I’m really wondering what I’m doing wrong here from your perspective.

I totally agree with everything you have uttered!!! I LOVE THIS MANHWA SO MUCH AND I ALWAYS WILL NO MATTER WHAT HAPPEN.
I am constantly impressed by your wonderful words every time!!! you make the little things feel so big here, I really appreciate you and your own opinion (ur opinion is like mine)!! ALL HAIL, KING

I didn't mean fanfiction but ok, tell me if you're interested in reading mine too (not a fanfiction but oc)

Look how he/she analyse every simple sentence, I'm done here. Have fun with each other guys (≡^∇^≡)/

(◍•ᴗ•◍) thank you! I
I use simple words and go straight to the point, the language barrier act as a significant hurdle during conversations ;0; and personally hate long and useless conversations-_-

I think I have to go now too. I respect Akaito sm. He's the only critique whose long comments I read,same with Toonowoo( if iirc his name ).

Sorry for the late reply, and thanks for understanding me.
You're pretty invested in this one, aren't you? Lol. While I think that's a good thing to try to comprehend better others who have different opinions than yours, I also think we're not obligated to do it. Also, not everything is good or worth to be understood, like someone said once: "sometimes it's best to keep some doors closed" (to protect our psyché). A bit extreme as exemple: if someone says they like reading shota, I can question their tastes and argue a bit but I'm not gonna spend time to know why in the world it's a pleasing thing: I know deep down that I hate CP ; that now the genre is banned even by Japan etc...
I think that everyone set their limits on different criterias, and surely things are more complicated when it comes to rape bc rape and SA are so prevalent and normalised in bl/yaoi, but don't feel obligated to understand the appeal of plots like this if you think that deep down it goes against your very values as human. What can we do when the other party's used to just completely shut their brain when in comes to fiction? Wouldn't it be a waste if time to even try? I'm mean there, but it's a genuine question.
I know your intentions, though I'm telling you this bc I don't want you to feel like you're forcing yourself to understand somethinh that's painful or too foreign for your understanding.
It's not about brainy capacities, but the psyché. I'd never wanted to be used to things I normally hate to the point they'd become normal to me.
If people knew how invasive porn can be for the human psychism, and other kinds of contents, they'd may be more cautious.

If we considerer that humans could never get rid of prostitution anyway, then certainly platforms like OF can be an alternative for women to gain more controle and freedom over their activity, but lately with cases like Lily Philipps and Bonnie Blue, many are asking for the ban simple and pure of OF.
Vast question where we'll see also lots of pros and cons, and it's undeniable that with the reign of internet there are new kinds of pimps and extrem practices to gain exposure that will, again, question our choices as civilisation...

Ha que je te comprends ! L'anglais n'étant pas mon fort, je fais l'effort pareillement mais avec l'impression d'être à la traîne car tu ne peux exprimer toutes tes pensées, et les faire avec les subtilités de l'anglais. Alors hésite pas non plus à me parler dans notre belle langue.
Oui je vois que souvent tu ne perds pas de temps avec ces longues discussions, et je comprends bien tes attentes car chacun a sa façon de s'évader comme il le souhaite... C'est tout à fait justifié et tu as également raison. Pour ma part, j'aime bien ces longues analyses, car il n'y en a généralement pas bcp peu importe l'histoire, alors non seulement j'y participe quand je le peux mais j'avoue même les rechercher un peu. Lol.
C'est peut être une intellectualisation dans la manière d'aborder l'histoire, mais je trouve la démarche intéressante et puis c'est l'occasion de réfléchir pleinement au scénario, et vivre l'histoire avec les autres... Partager nos goûts comme dégoûts, vision sur les choses et connaissances... Mais bien d'accord que ce n'est pas un exercice qui plaît à tous, comme ça prend en plus du temps et de l'énergie par ailleurs... C'est compréhensible de simplement se réjouir sans trop réfléchir.
Perso, je préfère des commentaires argumentés comme ceux de Kaito par rapport à des coms haineux et simplement vulgaires, ressemblant à des spams, qui ne sont qu'abus envers des lecteurs qui n'ont rien demandé.
On a l'impression qu'ils se vengent de leur sale journée en insultant Jjk, alors que c'est nous qui nous en prenons plein la gueule >.< C'est pas un saint, on a compris, mais c'est trop.

No worries at all, we have all our life and we can't be available at all time :)
I'm glad you're agreeing with my 4 comments above. I think that whatever your def. of consent it can only better than mine. Tbh I just jumped into it without too much thinking, but it's good to discuss about the subject like that. Knowing that's consent and how to refuse is so important for us girls.
Tbh we have the impression that the West in general is more advanced and progressive about this subject (consent, rape...), but in fact the way people live and how these problems are treated are not better. In France, for exemple, we have an issue about how slow is the Justice to treated such cases, how it takes years for criminals to be judged in courts or how some mentally sick individuals end up committing crimes bc the Law is too relaxed... We have more and more underage persons being involved in sexual trafficking and prostitution without efficient measures to counter this plague ; this can't be a sign of a successful society. Though I think it's more of a civilisational problem (shift) than a problem of which or which country...

I think people who can speak like that are early teens and have no idea about what they're talking about.

You're right, and why hate? As long as we can speak like that with our differences in opinion etc, in civilized manner, that's all we need :)

Je ne sais pas comment ça se passe avec la communauté fr de Jinx, si ça se dispute en commentaire ou s'ils détestent Jjk aussi, pas trouvé de site fr qui est à jour avec les chapitres '-' du coup, je préfère les lire en anglais (au moins, je suis sûre de rien rater).
C'est pas que je perds pas du temps avec de longues discussions, c'est juste que je veux pas perdre de temps avec ce type, je me suis déjà retrouver des heures et jours à parler avec (est-ce que ça en vaut la peine? De base je suis là pour jinx) et on se comprends pas, on a des avis différents et ça me saoule les gens qui étalent leur science et qui parle comme s'ils avaient raison. Je sais pas... C'est comme si t'étais assis à côté d'un mec à regarder DBZ et qui n'arrête pas d'interrompre en posant plein de questions sur le meurtre et les homicides qui s'y déroulent... C'est ridicule, on sait que c'est pour faire avancer l'histoire, c'est pas une oeuvre qui te pousse à réfléchir à ce genre de chose, faut changer de média si tu veux te poser des questions existentielles, c'est qu'ils arrivent pas pas à s'immerger. Ce type peut pas apprécier une fiction, il a horreur de l'inconnu, il laisse pas son esprit errer, comme tous les gens qui lachent un commentaire "fk u Jjk" qui a 40 like, ils devraient s'abstenir de lire des fictions, mon avis.

Oula

Ça y va les pavé en français lol

- disappointing to see the language barrier has nothing to do with you missing and misunderstanding my point(s) https://www.mangago.zone/home/mangatopic/17989561/

- i love fiction and i’ll keep reading, writing, and exploring meaning in it, thank you :)

No need to apologize, take your time. Honestly I don’t have any like, deep-seated issue with this type of story or depictions of rape/SA in stories in general—I think you have to look at every story individually and how it’s going about depicting those things + why they’re depicting it to be able to determine whether it’s a “good” or “bad” depiction (in and of itself complicated because what do we mean by good or bad, are we talking about its relevance to the plot and characters, or are we talking about whether or not it’s helpful or harmful to victims of sexual violence, or something else).

So like with Jinx—I mean, I can’t intuit the author’s intentions or anything, but I know it’s…I don’t know. I just feel like the author is inconsistent I know, or at least, I THINK it’s supposed to be sort of a porn without plot and the rape and sexual assault indeed isn’t meant to be taken that seriously, it’s just some rape porn. I don’t have an issue with that, plenty of people are into that kind of thing—so long as everyone knows it’s a fantasy they’re indulging in, and they know precisely the type of fantasy they’re indulging in, and no one is in real life getting hurt, bon voyage.

But at the same time…this story does have plot, doesn’t it? And that plot relies on characterization, on the characters (at least Jaekyung) learning and growing and developing from their weaknesses and mistakes. And then we have what feels to me like clear moments of Dan experiencing sexual trauma at the hands of OTHER characters and then even from Jaekyung himself, to an extent. There also other moments/attempts at realism, I remember some other readers mentioning how well-researched the MMA stuff seems to be (I wouldn’t know, but hey, credit where credit’s due). So it just feels like there’s a discrepancy there in terms of how “seriously” it’s meant to be taken—how much I, or any other reader, am meant to factor in Jaekyung’s sexual behavior when it comes to what we and Dan are meant to be forgiving him for, if that makes sense. As opposed to an ACTUAL porn without plot where the absolute bare minimum basics would go into things like plot and characterization.

To me then it isn’t even (just) an issue of “oh, this is romanticizing rape” or whatever, I honestly think that’s a surface level objection to this story and its flaws and it doesn’t take a lot into consideration. If someone can’t stomach it and doesn’t want to read it solely based on that then I won’t fault them for it, but then I’m also like, I don’t think that person should be commenting on the story and what it’s doing right or wrong because they wouldn’t actually know and their critique would be surface level. For me it’s more an issue of storytelling. If you’re already going to include things like rape and go so far as to depict some of the trauma from that, then I think it’s just good storytelling to fully explore the implications of those things in your story—how it impacts the characters and their relationship(s). If you just throw something in your story and then don’t actually do anything meaningful with it…??? I mean of course anyone can do anything they want but to me it just feels shallow and underwhelming djdhhdhdhf anyway. My ramblings. Idk, if/when I don’t like something I try to think a lot about Why and if there’s any reason beyond just “not my taste.”

It’s like—I think I used this analogy elsewhere actually lmao. But it’s like if you’re watching a movie and the whole movie is taking place in front of this very particular door. The camera lingers on the door, characters talk in front of the door, they even talk ABOUT the door, they drop hints about something being behind it, they even open it every now and then, but only enough to slip through without us the audience being able to really see inside it. Isn’t it natural you’d get curious about the door and what’s behind it? Wouldn’t you feel a bit cheated if it turned out there was nothing special about the door at all, and the filmmaker meant for the movie to be something else entirely? That’s kind of like how I feel about Jinx. If other people don’t feel that way then that’s absolutely fine, my opinion on that is unlikely to change and I don’t seek to change anyone else’s mind on it either. My issues with the webtoon itself and my issues with some of its audience and how they’re interpreting it are two (almost) completely separate things.

Pfff exactement comme il a fait la dernière fois, il est allé traduire mes commentaires, bah vas-y traduis ça et fous-moi la grape "occupe-toi de tes fesses", c'est pas à toi que je parle alors casse-toi.

Oh ptn, mais bon courage pour lire, ce moulin à parole à tellement de choses à dire... Pour ma part, j'ai pas que ça à foutre, je m'embête plus à lui parler en anglais vu qu'il va traduire, ce crevard à soif de dialogue

Faut parler à des personnes réelles Akaito, parle à ton psy, fais-toi des amis, je sais pas moi... Sors un peu.

Ok, vu que que je n'ai pas compris ce que tu veux dire (selon toi), résume-le-moi une phrase. Si tu m'écris des pavé, je lirai pas. Spis direct et tourne pas autour du pot. T'as façon d'écrire fais que je me désintéresse vite de ce que tu dis, contrairement à certains.

Yes, because unlike you, I actually have some interest in what people are saying…I translated both yours and MangaSanctuary’s messages because I want to understand. This is still my thread, after all. I don’t mind if you continue speaking in French, whatever’s easiest for you. I’ve said as much before. I’ll just do my best to understand and ask for clarification where necessary.

Damn I didn’t know you weren’t a real person. ChatGPT huh? Just like that other person…

Creepier than thought XDDD u translated MangaSanctuary's comment too just coz it's your thread XD naaah u shouldn't

Shiki, this conversation has spanned multiple different topics, and like I’ve said, they’re complex and require thoroughness and nuance. I wouldn’t even begin to know what to summarize and I don’t have any desire to dumb down things for people who don’t have any interest in actually having a dialogue. I’ve already tried with you. Like you said, we don’t see eye-to-eye, you’re not reading my shit cause it’s too long and complicated for you, whatever.

Amuse-toi bien et évitons de nous reparler, en tout cas compte sur moi.

People who are interested can read, people who are not can fuck off. Simple.

Now I'm back just coz you said that (≡^∇^≡)/

And ppl who can't simply enjoy this manhua can fk off also, r?

Anyway yeah you’re right I suppose there’s no convincing someone like that to think differently. I guess it’s just hmhmhm for one I personally think it makes your experience more fun, worthwhile, and complete when you really think about any type of art you’re engaging with, but that might just be me and my cohorts lol. Like absolutely I understand reading, watching, playing things just for pure fun and entertainment, and of course I do it too. And there is of course lots of art out there that’s meant to be pure dumb fun.

At the same time I think it can still be fun and meaningful to comb into even those things we take to be pure fluff and entertainment and try to understand what they’re saying. Or just make shit up for the hell of it, why not. All artists put a bit of themselves into their works, it’s unavoidable. And to put yourself into your work means to put your thoughts, feelings, experiences, biases, opinions, etc into it…some authors do these things on purpose, others do it completely unconsciously. Most end up doing a bit of both. There are multiple video essays on YouTube analyzing Twilight for a reason, you know? Or let’s take something perhaps a bit more comprable, 50 Shades Of Grey. I’ve not read a single Twilight book, nor have I read or watched any 50 Shades Of Grey, but those two series are just supposed to be the same type of…nonsensical taboo romance as Jinx, right? Yet there’s lots to say about them.

I don’t know though, I guess it also makes me a bit…sad? Or disappointed, maybe? To see this attitude of ALWAYS just checking your brain out at the door when it comes to art/fiction, or the attitude that it’s completely frivolous to consider the sociopolitical implications any given piece of art/fiction might have. Or yeah, just…more ambiguous(?) things like what a piece of writing is saying about themes like love, loss, grief, revenge… Yes maybe for Jinx it’s something more worthwhile to do but, again, artists put themselves into their work—those things worm their way into their stories without them even meaning to. And this doesn’t even take into consideration those stories that ARE still fictional, fantastical even, that very directly and purposefully comment on those types of things. Like I don’t know, so many fantasy writers end up creating and exploring some kind of racism or discrimination in their worlds…isn’t it worth thinking about that?

Who says I don’t enjoy it?

I said to SIMPLY enjoy it, without questioning the universe

Why?

Can you do it?

What part of the universe are you asking me not to question, and why shouldn’t I question it?

Bye.

Awww Shiki baby I thought we finally had something going on now that we were speaking in single sentences (づ￣ ³￣)づ

Single sentences? You weren't even able to answer a simple question. Paraphrase, extrapole, joue les intelligent t'es qu'une... Non, Chao.

HELLOOOO ☆(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*☆(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*

Oh I miss That'sweird rereading their comments ;-;

I don’t think it’s a simple question, there’s lots of moving parts to this story, and I’d prefer to have a good reason to do something. I asked you another “simple” question for clarification. I’m not trying to play smart. But no, go ahead, tell me what I am.

C'est "oui" ou "non". Mais t'ignorer est la meilleure réponse à tes questions.

This is a false dichotomy. Anyway, the answer is probably no, I can’t “simply” enjoy the story without questioning the universe it takes place in, the characters, their motives, etc. Asking questions about stories is part of the enjoyment for me.

Coucou, bon je reviens sur le sujet.
J'ignore également au sujet de Jinx et je pense que même s'il existe une commu sur le manhwas celle-ci doit être assez petite.

Au sujet de DBZ, je comprends ton analogie, mais perso je ne comparerai pas les deux sachant que l'un est du shonen basic et l'autre Yaoi. Le public auquel ces deux sont destinés n'est pas non plus le même : DBZ rassemble un public très jeune ou adultes mais nostalgiques du manga, tandis que Jinx est de base 18+ comme public. DBZ est encré dans un univers complètement fantastique, dans le sens où c'est irréel et imaginaire.
Jinx est aussi de la fiction, cependant encré dans un univers réaliste et crédible. Ainsi, on ne va pas se poser des questions quant à pourquoi San Goku est mort, mais revient à la vie pour la Nième fois, comment on peut se rendre sur la planète Namèque rien qu'à la force de sa poussée... parce que tout ce qui se passe dans cet univers est pas crédible. En revanche, on peut se poser des questions (sociales) sur pourquoi Jjk agit d'une certaine manière avec Dan, car de telles situations se produisent dans notre réalité.
Bref, je veux pas t'embrouiller avec des analyses non plus, mais rendons à César ce qui lui appartient, lol.

As-tu essayé de défendre ton point de vue en expliquant une fois les raisons, par rapport à l'histoire, pourquoi tu aimais Jinx...? Pas avec Kaito uniquement, mais en général ?
Car souvent ce que je remarque dans les coms, c'est : "si t'aimes pas, dégage", bon, en soi c'est valable mais ça ne suffit pas comme réponse.

Je ne suis perso pas fana de Jinx, mais j'aime bien assez pour dire que même si leur dynamique est telle qu'on le voit, c'est aussi ce qui fait l'intérêt de l'histoire. Car leurs deux personnalités comme leur situation est si différente l'une de l'autre que finalement, on se pose la question de ce qui peut les rapprocher plus que nécessaire ? Qu'est-ce qui fait que au final, Dan pourra pardonner le gars, et nous par la même occasion ? Quel amour sincère peut naître de cette relation problématique ? Car c'est maintenant vers cela que tend l'histoire.
Donc, ok c'est très orienté smut, mais l'histoire semble assez captivante pour nous maintenir en haleine, et plus que les abus qui peuvent se produire au sein de ces relations très inégales, notamment moneyables, c'est leur dynamisme créant le suspense, qui est intéressante !
Il y a toujours quelque chose de bien à dire d'une histoire, surtout quand on l'aime bien. As-tu essayé ?

Dernière chose, je dis cela car Kaito semble bien investi/e dans cette histoire et que sa volonté de comprendre semble par ailleurs sincère.
Je m'en ficherai si leurs dires étaient insultantes ou irrespectueux comme nombre ici, cependant ce n'est pas le cas et vu qu'il a passé bcp de temps sur cette histoire cela vaut la peine d'expliquer clairement ses raisons. Peut-être qu'on ne parviendra pas à faire adhérer l'autre à ses idées, mais au moins à lui faire comprendre un peu notre pov...

Thanks, and yeah I took my time.
I understand what you mean by considering every aspect to determin if a plot is well written and pertinent etc, and I agree.
Though I wrote my preview reply in consideration of what you said; that if you study Jinx and even take notes, that's bc you really want to understand why many readers like Jinx and you wish to focuse more on the story (than the rapey aspect of their relationship). That's why I told you that not everything is meaningful not worth our comprehension, worth our time...
The issue is rape, abuse etc are often just used as plot devices for many bl yaoi stories and authors have no consideration for their meaning or the gravity that imply such elements in a relationship that will grow to be a supposed love story. That's why often the Ukes who went through abusive treatments seem like they do not care much or a little affected by how they were treated or violated by the mls... We care as readers, but what to do when the problem lies on the author side, and should I say, the bl genre itself...?

Personally I don't care much anymore (I'm just tired of that genre tbh...). I ceased to care.
While a story can be set-up in a pretty realistic environment, the interactions of the characters are completely unrealistic and the resolution of their problematics even more... Like if the promising premise was just a trap set up to lure in readers but there's nothing else much after than smut... It's just meaningless to wonder atp why authors can write these stories and not make the efforts to make them pertinent, relevent... This is what I feel about most bl. Jinx certainly has more to offer besides this multitude of bed scenes, but ultimately it's not so different to me than the others. The Ukes/mc was made to be so submissive that while he clearly suffers, he can't voice clearly his thoughts and whatever since he can't live without the Seme, of course they'll gonna end up together... with an almost obligated passage of redeeming for ml for the happy ending. That's cliché but that's the usual process, but I'm tired...

Sorry, with all these meaningless stories lately -not forcefully Jinx, I'm feeling sick of most Korean profuctions

What am I even saying. Like the author even gives a real fuck about this kind of thing. lmao

Yeah. Most like BJ Alex but forget how kind of...meh the redemption arc was. And how abrupt. I'd recommend Can't Think Straight because the couple there goes through equal amounts of character development.

Idk, I think Dan did reach a point where suicide could've been one of his thoughts, the thing I really don't like is how they used it as an excuse to give that motherfucker another hero moment, like that could erase every fucked up thing he has done. In my opinion every other choice would've been better, even a finale where Dan really dies would've been better, because at that point JK would've been forced to face everything he did to him for real instead of just getting out of every consequence by just saving him

Nah, i agree. Jk needed to grovel more. Really understand the severity of his actions and stuff. I'm disappointed

Thanks for the recommendation, I might check it out. To be honest I’ve fallen out of the habit of reading webtoons where romance is the A plot, I more prefer when there’s like…other stuff happening…precisely because of this kind of thing lol

Yeah, like I said, I might’ve missed it/not read too much into it—I was thinking more in terms of how it was set up. But seeing other people’s comments saying they related to his feelings made me think maybe it isn’t as improbable as I thought. I know my mental health had also taken a heavy, heavy toll when my own grandma was sick, and certainly after she passed away—so I can’t take that away from anyone.

But I agree it’s just…incredibly frustrating that his depression and this suicide attempt is being used in this way. I think that’s what I’m mainly upset about. That it isn’t allowed to just be about Dan being in this dark place but about how Jaekyung, a huge part of the reason why he’s there in the first place, can come “save” him without having done any work for it. It was the same shit when those lone sharks were about to rape Dan or when Dan just so happened to get with with fucking aphrodasiac drugs of all things—it’s almost never Jaekyung making a conscious and deliberate choice to do something different or do something better or do something because he’s actually driven to it, but him just happening to be at the right place at the right time. Man.

Yeah fr, it's so frustrating that the author justify this kind of behaviour. You can't just be a fucking awful person 24/7 and then do the bare fucking minimum and expect to be excused. Like griw the fuck up man

Ohhh if I remembered correctly I loved Can't think straight

I'm currently living a very miserable life in university

Are you curious because of your research on how readers view SA in manhwas?

Incredibly relatable content

Hmmm what does it matter to you? I’m just a silly, overly morally righteous troll who can’t separate fiction from reality, right? I got curious because I wanted to see if all my time spent in those ivory towers of higher ed studying writing and literature is what’s causing some of the fundamental disconnect in approaches and understandings of those approaches to this work.

I asked because I assumed you wanted to know for research purposes. If you are using the info you collect for research, then you should be clearly telling readers that before you ask the question.

Definitely for research purposes

Well, I’m not. If I were I indeed would’ve clarified that but, like I said, I am just curious because of the aforementioned reasons. Though I have thought about using the various discussions I have had with people as data, I’m a bit too lazy to consciously and deliberately collect anything right now, much less break down and categorize it…

What, now we care about ethics? In the first place you’re all already anonymous by virtue of your usernames, I doubt anyone here is using their real names. You’d possibly be rendered even more anonymous by stripping you of your usernames altogether and referring to you as “user 1, user 2, user 3” etc. All the info here is also publicly available, so it wouldn’t be as if I’d privately recorded an interview containing sensitive information and released it to the public without my interviewee knowing…hell, someone else entirely could do this kind of thing and factor me and my responses into it as well.

The other thing that would make research like that a bit challenging is determining how genuine people’s answers are, although if I was conducting more formal interviews or putting out a more formal questionnaire—well I did attempt something like the latter before—that might change a bit. Still, there’d be something worthwhile in how people responded regardless, and conclusions you could draw from them, even if that conclusion is ultimately that they didn’t take the line of inquiry seriously

That’s true, most people are anonymous on these types of sites. Research can be done on anonymous data with certain expectations, such as having a low level of engagement with users. A researcher who has a high level could direct the data in their favour, and it impacts consent from an ethical standpoint. It ultimately depends on the approval of the ethics committee your research is affiliated with. An issue is that it’s highly unlikely that researchers who have a fairly high level of engagement and are anonymous are going to admit that. Another issue, as you pointed out, is the truthfulness of the data you collect. Things like this is why I view some peer-reviewed research with skepticism.

No way

Ain't no way you said that. But at least that guy from SB was obsessed with the other guy and made an effort to keep him. Jaekyung hasn't even shown any interest, I haven't seen any broker ankles yet. (jk jk jk)

Don’t mistake “better writing” for anything else—I don’t mean that the MC or the guy “pursuing” him are more likeable as people, or that their relationship is healthier than Dan and Jaekyung’s or anything else like that. What’s depicted there is very obviously and horrifically toxic and abusive, but that’s the thing—the author actually seems perfectly aware of that fact, unlike Jinx’s author.

We see the MC’s mental state gradually deteriorate over time the longer he’s with the other guy, going from someone desperately fighting against him and trying to escape, to someone who has fallen into learned helplessness, hopelessness, and despair. He develops suicidal ideations and starts drinking to cope. Throughout this, he catches his mindset shifting and changing because of the treatment, and he doubts himself and his reality. Even at the end when he ends up going back to the other guy, it’s clear he’s doing it not because he genuinely loves the guy, but because he still feels he has no hope in anyone or anyone else.

And the other guy, as crazy and selfish as he is, does gradually pull back on said crazy behavior whenever he sees he’s pushed MC too far, trying to make up for it. He unchains MC eventually, lavishes gifts on him, gives him bits and pieces of his freedom back over time, promises not to freak out each time after he’s done something else horrible to the MC. It’s a very classical, textbook pattern of abuse. And even this guy, again, crazy and selfish as he is, seems to hold some type of…care or affection for the MC—enough that MC’s suicide attempt shakes him so deeply to his bones that he’s willingly (at least for a bit) to finally let MC go.

So it’s just, yeah. Comparing that to Jinx and how shallow and static Dan and Jaekyung’s characters are, and how stagnant their dynamic is and has been throughout these 52 episodes of season 1…seeing how Jinx’s author hasn’t done the bare minimum in acknowledging and depicting the reality of what is happening in her own webtoon, at least not yet…yeah I do think that author has a leg up on Jinx in terms of story and characterization. Who knows, though. Maybe I will be surprised by season 2.

See the above LOL. But yeah, that also. I buy that Dan is/might be delusionally in love with Jaekyung but I do not at all buy that Jaekyung likes or cares for Dan right now

Glad you brought it up. Top 3 yaoi to read :
1. In these words.
2. Jinx
3. Sadistic beauty bl