I don’t mind age gaps, but it depends on how old is the youngest in the relationship and nuances (for example, if the youngest is 25 but the oldest saw them grow up and then started dating when they were 25 - still weird). And my jaw was on the floor when I found out the age difference.
17 years is CRAZY. Especially when they started dating when MC was 21 and the ML was 38. That’s definitely a cradle robber right here. Like, sir, that’s a child.
(P.S. I don’t mean that if a person is 21 they are still considered a child. But for someone in their late thirties, young twenty year olds are seen as children. Like would you date a middle schooler when you are almost finishing high school? Would you date a high schooler when you just finished your bachelor degree? Exactly.)
I still can’t wrap my head around it. Twenty one… Twenty one!!!! Dating a man that’s almost in his forties!!!!! Twenty one!!!!!!!
And the fact that MC goes back in time is making it even more uncomfortable. Like I have no idea how ML will be able to fall in love with a child or (if they get together only in ten years) someone he saw grow up.
I’m very surprised that this has a rating above 9.0
Anyways, I dropped that because I’m too uncomfortable to continue reading and find out what happens later. I really love the whole concept, story and ML, but age gap is making it too weird to read and enjoy.
I *guess* when MC grows back to 21 he would technically be 31, so mentally age gap wouldn’t be that much, but still. It’s like simping over a loli that is ‘actually thousands of years old’.
(This is all my personal opinion.)
Romance in this manhwa was unsatisfying. It happened out of nowhere that it took me by surprise. Daiki (ML) mentioned that Minjun (MC) gets in his nerves once and BAM - they are already making out and jerking each other. What. It was really unsatisfying. ESPECIALLY when Daiki was acting like an absolute asshole to Minjun, saying that he only likes having sex with him and doesn’t love him. It obviously upset MC a lot, so I was waiting and craving the moment for Daiki to regret saying it when MC grows slightly distant and maybe a potential rival could set ML’s head straight. But no. Out of nowhere he says he loves him and they reconcile? Absolutely pissed me off. Daiki was getting off the hook so easily.
There were so many moments where I felt I’m getting edged and then severely disappointed. The scenes where MC got hurt, the romance, the potential regret and redemption of ML (let’s not forget that he kidnapped, threatened, assaulted and was disgusted by MC in the beginning), but nooooooo.
While I’m on the subject, I absolutely hated ML (Daiki) in the first season then I grew to tolerate him in second. I get why he acted the way he did, but I hated the execution. He was (and still is) an ass with MC. In first season he was a cold prick with nothing good to be said about him. In the second, he somewhat shows that he cares about MC, but it feels shallow. Especially when they have sex. I got really sad when MC once said that it hurt during sex, which is nothing surprising, because ML just shoves it in without prep or anything. Just lube and nothing else. He doesn’t even wear condom!!! I also never once saw him taking care of MC. Not after sex or hospital. The only time he ‘took care’ of MC was to press ice on his back, but then went straight to fucking him after. Like, sir, is he your lover or a fucktoy?
MC stand the fuck up!!! Have some self respect!!!!
Of course I didn’t expect Daiki to become a simp or a soft cutie after falling in love. Not realistic and I get that. However, the least author could do is to expend on their relationship, because it’s shallow af. When Minjun said that he loves Toma more than Daiki - I 100% believed that. And it really shouldn’t be like this.
The other thing that annoyed me was the same face syndrome. There are so many characters with same face that I was so lost in the second season when more characters came. Author did an awful job at presenting characters. They just throw names and then their personal life out of nowhere, confusing tf out of me. I don’t want to sit through the manhwa with a notepad to write down everything to understand who is who. And don’t get me started on characters that were introduced (e.g. the English teacher in the beginning) that just disappeared.
I also hated how everyone treated MC. Comedy is comedy, but constantly calling MC dumb started to annoy me. The guy was a nursing student that got accepted into the top university in foreign country and became fluent in their language. Yes, sometimes he says dumb stuff (very rarely), but mostly he is doing an amazing job at raising the kid. MC is definitely not dumb, so calling him that was just out of pocket most of the time. Also, why tf is everyone so disrespectful towards MC? I get friendly banter, but most of the time it was just straight disrespect towards a lover of their boss and ‘mother’ of the kid they adore. And again, why tf ML allows this?? Never once did I hear him tell his men like ‘watch your mouth’ or ‘treat Minjun with respect’. The only time he showed his dissatisfaction was when his men were too close to his lover. Basically he only cares if Minjun sleeps with someone else but not how he is treated. Got it.
I get that it’s comedy, but even comedy can go too far. I would get it if MC wasn’t MC and was instead a side character. But he isn’t. So it was annoying.
Of course there are good moments in this manhwa. It’s just FOR ME I couldn’t overlook these things. And when there are so many annoying things, it was hard to enjoy the story. If it was just the problem with ML, but MC was getting treated with respect most of the time and there weren’t this many characters on the front - I wouldn’t have a problem with ML. You know what I mean? One problem is easy to overlook, but when there are many - it’s much easier to get stuck on them.
I was gonna write out my frustrations but you already did it for me
I’m happy (づ￣ ³￣)づ
Manhwa had a great potential but was bland as water. Just a bunch of things thrown together without actual writing or character development.
Yoo, i didn't read all of that but i already agree with your first para, like i thought he was gon fall in love slowly but bamm. Not complaining tho, just that it was so sudden and there were lots of plot holes too.
I love the novel so fucking much. Author of the novel wrote such a beautiful heart wrenching and heartwarming story that it will sit with me for a while. Their writing style is also amazing, so that was another twist of a knife on top of the angst. Damn, half of my quote list got filled up by this novel.
However… the art style is doing my babies dirty. Both of them are described as handsome/good-looking. ML kinda looks good and attractive manhwa, but my baby MC looks like an average guy, when he is described like this in the novel:
“…He was good-looking. A bit too much so. If he’d had an average, forgettable face, his name wouldn’t have come up nearly as often.”
That, on top of being noticeably built (special training and enhancements). Don’t do my baby dirty!!! It feels like artist didn’t read the whole novel, because the novel is in first person perspective and Geonho has a really low self-esteem, so he doesn’t see himself as attractive. He even mentions a few times how ‘unattractive’ and ‘average-looking’ he is compared to others, but he is unreliable narrator. When it’s other people’s perspective, they always mention how beautiful and good-looking he is.
No offence to the artist. I’m glad that the story is getting recognised and adapted, but I just want the best of the best for my baby Geonho and this amazing story ╥﹏╥
do you have the link for fully translated novel, i could only find till ch 26
It’s almost fully translated (up chapter 41 I think and translator said on the discord server that they are about to upload the rest of the chapters + side stories) just advanced chapters on the translator website could be bought. They release one chapter a week.
Do you have the link?
The whole pregnancy trope is pissing me off right now. Dude just started uni and wants to have kids? Without research or anything? Without any plan or understanding the consequences??
MC is so immature and not emotionally stable to have a kid. Even the way he talks about kids is just him trying to fill the hole. He is not actually treating this seriously. And as someone who is heavily involved with kids, MC is just having a baby fever and throwing a tantrum over it. He didn’t talk to the friend’s sister about her experience with kids, doesn’t know how it will alter his body, doesn’t research anything and doesn’t think about the future at all. Like does he expect to have a baby and immediately go back to studying in uni? Does he want to drop out of uni that he tried so hard to get into and get good grades after just one year? Does he even realise that he will most likely take care of the baby alone, because ML has a company to run? Does he plan just to have a baby, hire a nanny and put all the responsibility of raising a kid on others? Pissing me off…
I agree with ML on all of the points. Even the way he handled the whole situation is very mature (but he should’ve stood his ground and sit down to talk about plans for having a baby. not just cave to the immature kid). But MC’s reaction to ML not wanting to have kids YET was enough to see that this boy is not ready. And HIDING the birth control???? Boy….
Also it just reads as a straight up propaganda lmao. It just reads as “kids are the greatest happiness so go and settle down, while also throwing away your plans for the future! think about now!”.
Quite insightful
He is a stupid kid himself who thinks he knows it all and can do all. I hope it doesn't work out for him right now, only because he should not have a kid now when he himself is a selfish kid who needs to grow up a bit more bebore he trys to raise a kid. IMO at least.
Amen!
This needs to be pinned as top commenr
I HAAAATTTEEE stories where MC uses ML for something and then it gets very messy. I can’t handle this drama that can potentially be the main problem for the whole story. But this manhwa has such a high rating and is praised a lot, so I really want to continue reading it, but it’s really tough to get past the first chapters. I just caaaanntttt.
Can someone give me light spoilers? Is the whole story just MC using ML in the beginning, they fall in love, but then ML finds out and MC is working to get back together (just my prediction and assumption of how the story will go but I actually have no idea how it will go down)?
I want to know, please ╥﹏╥
you are genuinely spot on with your prediction of how this goes, I'm honestly very biased to unconditional though so I have to say regardless of that it's an unbridled cut above the rest even with the predictability of it mind (it takes alot of the cookie cutter aspects of those tropes and makes them feel mature), there's something really tangible and gentle about the relationship the characters develop and it's unlike anything I've ever read, the dialogue is very witty and maybe it's just nostalgia talking but it's one of my favourite mangas I've consumed (check my profile... I've read alot).
I am rambling but honestly I think it's better to have read this and find out you hate it (while still getting some frankly unprecedentedly great references on: healthy relationships, taking personal responsibility romantically, chivalry, determining genuine apologetics etc.) than not reading it at all, the author did something really social imo.
spoiler wise:
I personally find the way they deal with the guilt MC goes through a bit grittier than most in this genre, he genuinely is chewing off his fingers because of it.
ML is not very forgiving which I appreciated it takes alot and what I assume is months fr them to get back to a semblance of something (he cuts off MC completely/they break up with him having no intention of them getting back together, there no puppy eyes though ML is genuinely a hardcore yearner, he gives no fucks and shows a kind of pettiness I kind of enjoyed)
their reconciliation doesn't feel fickle ... if my memory serves right it's poetic without over or understating anyone's stakes in the relationship. (MC comes to a point where he's is just trying to be accepting that he messed up and maybe should move on but is still hopeful ofc.. they r both yearners imo honestly wtf )
idk I feel like I'm yapping wayyy too much idk if this is what you meant by light spoilers I don't want to give anything away for you that may be a great plot point as a reader. I tried talking about what you'd already brought up.
I don’t mind predictability because it doesn’t always speak of quality. I am just worried for my nerves.
I didn’t mind your ‘rambling’. You really got me with ‘better to read and not like it than not read at all’. I will try my best not to focus too much on the drama (difficulty: extreme) and focus on other things instead, because I really do love deep stories that actually give us great and not one dimensional characters.
I will read it. Thank you.
Nah, it’s perfect. Don’t worry. Now I kinda know what I’m getting into, so I’m prepared. Thank you!!!!
And you don’t ‘yap too much’. I love detailed responses.
yayyy I'm happy if I could be of any help at all I'm back because of the new work the author has put out and I think I'm gonna read it again let's hope we both enjoy it you for the first time and me for the 5th
He did plan to. Trust me its just the start. The story is really good. Trust.
The story is as you said, predictable, others have done it. Buttttt the characters here have depth, they were fleshed out really well. The pacing wasn't too slow and too fast. The plot points were cute, feel good and has just the right amount of drama.
The characters are likable, honestly, one of my favorite stories and I've read a lot. Its not like a mind blowing manhwa, its just really nice to read.
This author rarely miss. Their other works - " I have a boyfriend" - completed, and "Melting Point" on going are really great.
It felt like author plans to have stories tied to this one the way they just drop the other characters’ lore and problems (for example, the girl and her boyfriend), but then does nothing with it.
I’ve read stories like that before where author highlights that the character is important and shows bits of their struggles/backstory (like randomly mentioning the girl’s father, her connection to that CEO lady and etc) to then create a spin-off in the same universe. So it will be really disappointing and infuriating if that doesn’t happen now, because it just reads as out of pocket stuff that leaves reader unsatisfied and with more questions. Especially when the story is not that long and it makes main couple’s time shorter when author keeps focusing on other characters.
I love the characters though, but I just wished author made it a little longer to show more of the main couple and their development. Like, the fact that MC contacted his dad and was chill with him was just out of nowhere??? I don’t mind them reconciling, but not showing the process of MC’s journey that led him to accept his father is DIABOLICAL. But it’s just my opinion though.
The dude is so infuriating and their relationship is so doomed. I legit don’t know how author can make it satisfying when they end up together after all that shit and stupidity. He even admitted that he knew that the letter is probably forged (around chapter 48-49?) but CHOSE to hate and neglect her. And the whole thing with ‘while isolating her he also was isolating himself’ BOOHOO!!!!
The worst thing is that I can fucking smell that everything is going to be resolved with ML sacrificing himself, making FL cry and realise that she loves him. You know, how authors do all the time when they write these stories but have no idea how to mend the relationship.
I quit reading the side stories as soon as the red head story came up. Then I came back today just to finally finish this manhwa and put it to rest.
I don’t understand people who were genuinely rooting for him.
As a reader, I was disgusted with him for a long time for what he was doing to Suha and the sadistic shit he was doing. So I got really pissed at the idea that Suha’s close friend might get into a relationship with his best friend’s abuser of many years. That made me sick to my stomach.
I would understand it if the red head (didn’t even bother to remember his name, yes) changed a little. However, even if he went to therapy and atoned for what he did, I am still disgusted with him and don’t want to see his own story. Like just a mention that he got a happy end somewhere? Good for him. Reading his story? No, thank you.
And he didn’t even change. The story literally ended with him almost killing the person he was in love with, so I don’t understand people grasping for straws for his ‘character development’. Like, feeling bad for what he did is a BARE minimum as a person. And then he just started stalking the guy anyway and promised to never give up. A character development would’ve been him realising how much his life spiralled down and he needs to work on himself, letting go of the guy to let him be happy without him. That’s character development where he would’ve shown that he is starting putting someone’s happiness over his and stopping being selfish piece of shit, but no. He is still the same piece of shit.
Then there is constant torture of that red head. Yes, I fucking hate his guts, but that was just disgusting. Also, the fact that this fucking piece of shit needed all that torture to gain just a tiny fraction of character development (mind you, it still didn’t make him feel bad for what he did to Suha. not even a mention of him regretting), then it’s just a further proof that the character is ass and I don’t want to see his development.
Dear author, if you don’t know how to write an unlikeable character and their redemption afterwards, don’t fucking write then. I’m all for asshole characters getting character development, because when it’s written right - it’s mind opening and gain more empathy/different perspective. With this piece of shit story, it was going nowhere and led to nowhere.
Their side story was ass and nothing can change my opinion. The character is ass. The story is ass. Development is ass. Ending is ass. Everything is ass.
The hypocrisy of it all is everyone hated him before he became a bottom. He became a bottom and suddenly everyone is infantalizing him and pretending that him being horrible person isn't a thing. All of a sudden he deserves a love he didn't even value. Mans was threatening siwoo with everything even his very junior employees. He is an unhinged psycho and people think he's a cute little baby just because he became a bottom so all his fucked actions are now excusable. Tops are crucified for what he's done but now since he's joined the bottom side he deserves a chance.
This!!!
I forgot that he also threatened his employees.
Also, I think people started sympathising with him because of what he has gone through in the story. It’s fine to feel bad for him, because I did too. All that rape shit was disgusting. But forgetting all the shit he did and excusing his actions is also disgusting. I can’t believe people still can’t separate the two.
You’re also on to something here with the whole bottom thing.
I get where you're coming from, but you're kinda missing the bigger picture here. The red head isn’t some simple VILLAIN; he's got a ton of trauma and pressure from his family since he was a KID, and that’s where all his MESSED UP BEHAVIOR comes from. It’s not an excuse, but it’s definitely the reason behind why he acted the way he did. He’s been stuck in this toxic cycle of self-destruction, and just because he's starting to break out of it doesn’t mean everything’s magically better. It’s a process, you know?
Though his grandmother 'loves' him, you can’t ignore how massive the pressure is on him. The company's reputation is practically resting on his shoulders, and that’s a weight that most people wouldn't be able to handle without cracking. It’s like he's been set up to fail, and I honestly think a lot of people fail to see just how overwhelming that is for him. If you actually read the whole story, you should be aware of how 'scared' the red head was when he faced his grandmother.
I honestly think you’re being a bit too harsh with your take. Dismissing his character development entirely without acknowledging the struggle he’s been through just feels… shallow. If you’re gonna criticize him, at least see the bigger picture, and let’s be real–judging the author the way you did with all that 'ass' talk just doesn’t sit right with me. Yeah, I was mad too about how things went down with the red head, but I respect the author’s decision. It’s their story, and even if it hurt to watch, it’s part of the bigger narrative they built.
Oh, and please next time, call the red head by his name, because even though I hate Suha, I still respect him by calling his name.
I’m not missing a picture. Trauma and fucked up upbringing doesn’t excuse his actions. I understand where he is coming from, but it still doesn’t excuse it.
I’m tired of authors using mental illness or bad childhood as a quick way to make character likeable or for their redemption. Because the fact is: he abused and raped Suha for years, he threatened people with his position, he almost killed a guy in his tantrum when he wasn’t given what he wanted.
Stop infantilising grown people with mental illnesses. I’m saying that as a psychology major and a person with mental illness.
I am completely justified with hating the character. And I’m not dismissing his character development. I’m calling his character development ass. Like I'm sorry I'm not celebrating an abuser of many years for gaining a little bit of empathy, but still being a toxic piece of shit. I’m also mostly dissing the author that decided that gang rape and torture is the best way to give him character development.
And like I said already, I’m all for him to go to therapy and find a better life. What author wrote was ass development for him and people around him.
I would’ve been more than happy if the story mention like “hey, remember this villain? he went to therapy and now is living better life”. Good for him. Or if a story was centred around him developing empathy and slowly making amends. But no, he is getting raped and only through trauma he is getting development. And guess what: it’s worse development!!! Author is still traumatising him!!! He is not healing or getting better. His traumas just pile up until he becomes worse and you can see that in how obsessed he is with his love interest.
You keep saying 'but it still doesn’t excuse it,' but did you even read my comment properly? I literally said 'It’s not an excuse.' Maybe read carefully before trying to argue.
Also, Suha was never raped. Read it again, multiple times if necessary. He "chose" to do it because Dohyeok manipulated him. Manipulation is horrible, yes, but it’s not the same as rape. Meanwhile, Dohyeok was literally drugged and gang-raped. He explicitly DID NOT CONSENT. How are you even equating the two? Suha went through nothing compared to that.
And what really gets me is that you claim to be a psychology major, yet instead of analyzing why a character acts the way they do, you just hyperfocus on hating the execution. Shouldn’t someone with a psychology background be more interested in exploring character psychology rather than just saying it’s BAD writing?
Besides, this isn’t your story. Saying 'I would’ve been happier if the story went like this…'—okay? And? Who are you to dictate how the author writes their narrative? If you want that version, go write your own.
Who is arguing? I shared my opinion on the story and character. I didn’t even use any condescending or aggressive language in my response, so why are you calling me shallow and being aggressive? If you don’t agree with my opinion or what I said then don’t reply, because I thought we were having a discussion.
My use of language in the original post wasn’t directed at you and why are you getting offended on the author’s part? I have the right to express my take and the obvious problem with the narrative, while using unserious tone and words like ‘ass’. You want me to have an actual analysis and serious take? Okay.
Being coerced into having sex is still rape. Same way if you keep pressuring someone to say ‘yes’ is still rape. And if I remember correctly, he also drugged Suha in the story. Also I mentioned excusing, because that’s what you are doing. You can say ‘it doesn’t excuse’, but you are still excusing him. You bring up his trauma and childhood, while invalidating what his actions did to other people in his life, while also invalidating what he did to Suha, saying it was just simple manipulation when it wasn’t. If you had the same amount of empathy to his victims, you would’ve realised that it’s okay to feel sympathy for him, but it’s not okay
Also notice how I also condone what happened to him, yet you are attacking me and not the author? I criticised author, because they make a character that acts repulsively and with obvious psychological problems, but instead of giving a character a normal story of facing consequences of his behaviour and action, he is met with torture and rape that only further traumatises him, making his condition worse. Author made an awful character and then made him even worse, without showing any redemption. Character was self-centered and drowning in self-pity and got worse.
Yes, trauma literally alters your brain, making you act a certain way. That’s why in court if a person seriously ill they don’t get a full sentence. However, they still get punished, because what they did is still wrong. Because mental illness doesn’t protect you from responsibility. If you are treated poorly by your family, it doesn’t give you a green light to treat other poorly. It explains why you act that way, but it’s not excusing what you did to others.
We are not talking about a dysfunctional mentally ill person, who completely can’t comprehend reality. Or a child who is still developing and lacking empathy. We are talking about a grown and fully mature man with fully developed brain. He understands what he is doing is bad, but he is still doing it to feel superior since he was threatened and was in vulnerable position his whole life. He is not aware of why he is feeling that way, but he knows that whatever he was doing with Suha felt good. He knows that being in a higher position where he can’t go to prison feels good. He is purposely putting himself in that position, because he doesn’t want to feel like people he is treating that way. Cycle of abuse and all that.
In my original post, I was bashing the author for that decision. I said that I don’t like the character, but I still didn’t wish him to go through all of that on top of his trauma.
Me having psychology degree doesn’t mean I will psycho analyse or be interested in every single character. Do you think people with math degree would sit and calculate every single thing while reading? I am reading this as a reader. If I was reading this a psychologist, I would’ve sat down and analysed every sentence and expression in manhwa, but why would I do that. I also want to read things without turning on my professional mode.
I am treating him as a fictional character that has awful personality. He is not my client or an actual person I’m working with to set aside my personal beliefs and focus on his understanding. Because I am a person too and I have right to be disgusted with him.
I brought up my degree, because you are infantilising his character. He is a grown man. When talking about accountability and me not liking him, you bring up his trauma and childhood as if that’s a strong argument. I feel empathy towards him, but I still hate him. And I’ve already explained why.
Calling me shallow for not liking an abusive and questionable character doesn’t put you above me or make you an epitome of the open-minded person or empathy. You can like the character. The flag is in your hands. I won’t call you names for liking him, because that’s not how it works. I understand that you could like the concept of him, relate to his story or something like that. Understandable. But you also need to stop using this language to bash people who don’t like what you like. Understanding why character does something ≠ completely erasing what they did or my feelings for them.
Also notice how you compare traumas of characters (your quote: “Suha went through nothing compared to that”). So if a character went through much more - he is justified in doing whatever he is doing? I will stop you right there. Now you are literally belittling someone’s traumatic experiences, while trying to defend and justify his abuser. WHILE trying to explain to me how I don’t get the whole picture and how I don’t get the character. You are trying to get a higher moral ground on me and saying that?
Okay ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Right on the money. All that didn't need to happen for him to understand the severity of his actions. These creators think happy endings all need relationships. For him it could just be emancipation from his toxic lifestyle and developing self awareness as in developing empathy, holding himself accountable and taking responsibility for his fucked actions. He doesn't need a romantic partner for a happy ending and I hope bl creators stop endorsing this narrative.
So let me get this straight. You were the one who initially brought up your psychology degree to add weight to your perspective, but the moment I respond to it, suddenly you're "just reading as a casual reader" and don’t want to analyze things psychologically? If you didn’t want your background to be acknowledged, maybe don’t use it as a credibility card in the first place.
Also, I never excused anyone’s behavior—I pointed out the cycle of abuse, which is a well-documented psychological phenomenon. Understanding why someone does something ≠ justifying it. If you think explaining something means defending it, then that’s a comprehension issue on your end, not mine.
And let’s talk about inconsistency. You claimed my response was ‘offended’ and ‘aggressive’ simply because I pointed out contradictions. But weren’t you the one using strong language first? You can use the word “ass” in an unserious tone, but I can’t use “argue” the same way? The moment I MIRROR your energy, suddenly it’s ‘too much’ for you? Interesting.
At the end of the day, you’re free to dislike the character. But if your stance keeps shifting whenever it’s challenged, maybe it’s time to reflect on whether you actually stand by what you’re saying or just want to win a discussion at any cost.
Get the f over it will you !!!
It's a Manhwa and stop blameing Author's all the time you think you can do a way btter job well get to work and have it done on here smart ass and i will read it i'll tell you if it's trash or good !!!
Was I using strong language with you? Was I attacking and arguing with you? I was replying to you calmly. I don’t even understand what you trying to say by “I can’t use argue in the same way”. You turned this on me first here. I am talking directly at you, so my use of language is of course different. I never attacked you personally, but you started arguing with me. I’m refereeing to your tone in general and how you started addressing me directly. Even now you are being aggressive and for what. Because I disagree with your opinion? If my original post offended you, I am sorry. It wasn’t directed at you or made to make fun of you. But you are making it personal right now rather than discussing the original topic.
My stance didn’t change, what? All I did was change my tone to a serious one and expanded what I said in the OG post. Which is: 1) I understand what he went through and I still don’t like him. 2) I also didn’t like how he was raped and tortured but you bring it up as if I said that he deserved it or smth
I said in the beginning I don’t like a character and I stand by that. You use psychology and reasoning to excuse his behaviour or downplay what he did. That’s why I brought up my degree to say what you are doing is infantilising a grown man and excusing (Oxford dictionary: excuse - seek to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offence); try to justify) his actions You can say ‘I don’t justify it’, but all you do is exactly that. You literally said what he went through is worse than Suha, while I’m talking how he mistreated Suha (among other people). That’s literally what excusing means. I say I don’t like a character because he is an asshole and you bring up his childhood traumas. That’s excusing. You try to justify his actions by bringing up his trauma and childhood when it’s a completely separate point. That’s excusing. You MINIMISE what he did (your exact words: “Manipulation is horrible, yes, but it’s not the same as rape”. That’s a manipulation tactic, btw. Bringing up one awful thing and then much worse thing to make your first point less disturbing/upsetting/etc. Also yes, he still did rape Suha). That’s excusing.
It’s like if I said ‘I’m not sexually attracted to women’ while exclusively having sex with women and being repulsed by men, then get mad when being called out. You saying ‘I’m not excusing it’ is not making it true.
You called me shallow for not liking/hating his character. You have all the empathy and sympathy for him, but put down other characters and their trauma to justify your point. YOU are inconsistent and hypocritical. You bring up his childhood and traumas, but when I bring up Suha - all of a sudden his trauma is not as serious, therefore not important. You said it yourself.
I’m sad if my point didn’t get across. English is not my first language and it’s hard to write a long reply here on the phone, so I can see how my points were jagged and incomplete. However, call it inconsistency and saying I’m changing my stance is literally poor reading and comprehension on your part.
You want confrontation so bad and for what. Go to Reddit or TikTok and argue with people all you want.
So aggressive and for what. If you don’t agree, scroll. If you get personally offended by someone’s criticism of a thing you like, get over it. I am allowed to be angry at authors and express my opinion.
What if I said that when I was younger, I used to go to a writing club and my story was published in a set of stories? Am I good to critique the author now?
Do people need university degree in finance and politics to complain what is happening in the country? Grow up.
I completely agree!!! I don’t like when authors use mental illness or rape as browny points in the story. And author here did exactly that. They didn’t know how to write a redemption for the character, so they went the easy route to get readers to sympathise with him by making him a victim of sexual abuse. I’m also tired of authors using rape as a plot decide to push character development or plot.
I would’ve been more than happy for the story to be just like how you said it. A bittersweet ending where he finds a person he likes, realising what he is doing is wrong and learning a lesson. Becoming a better person. But it felt like all that suffering was for nothing. It just made him worse, because when you add onto the trauma it doesn’t nullify.
"You want confrontation so bad", isn't that you? I mean, I'm sorry for making you this complicated just because my explain that's not fit yours-that makes you write this long essay and make you feel in difficult position. Because the more I read your essay, the more I feel so pity about you. I think it's true then when you say you have mental illness so... Get well soon.
Literally so out of pocket and mad for what. Went into this conversation and now attacking me personally when I call you out for YOUR inconsistency and hypocrisy.
I hope you have a good day and touch some grass, think about life and calm whatever is angering you so much in life.
LMFAO
Aggressive !!!
You Sure i am ???
Don't you mean you !!!
I don't like people who think they are better and think they can tell off the Author's when really people like you have no right at all , i'm not offended one single bit
Get over what ???
I have nothing to get over
Ok awesome so you went a writing club still no you have no right to criticize a professional Author when your not even one !!!
If you still have this so called story that was published send it to me on here and i will read it like i said before in my previous comment i will tell you if it's good or crap !!!
Yes people do need university degree in finance and politics well that's up to them and it depand's what countery your on about !!!
I'm very grown up thankyou more then what i can say for you
Okay, kid. I’m not reading all that. Kids your age shouldn’t even read stories like that. Put down your phone and go outside, because phones ruin young people there days. Hope that helps (⌒▽⌒)
You're absolutely right. I don't get why people are attacking you for your opinion. It's frustrating to see this kind of backlash, especially since it's so common in the genre. Toxic characters do terrible things, and then the narrative tries to redeem them with backstories of trauma or neglect. It feels like a cheap way to elicit sympathy.
Instead of genuinely developing the character, the author uses themes of rape, sexual assault, and abusive upbringing to justify his actions. It would have been far more impactful if he had simply recognized his flaws and made a real effort to change.
Its crazy to see these ppl defend him or even like him. The story started strong, and I hoped we could finally avoid the typical tropes that force us to sympathize with an abuser.
Also the argument that Suha wasn’t raped is crazy; you mentioned its coercion and it is still assault. Just because someone has faced hardships doesn’t give them the right to hurt others. Suha dealt with his own struggles but chose not to resort to violence.
You’re spot on—he’s still not healthy, and it’s disheartening to see how the narrative glosses over that. I still enjoyed the story overall, but it’s disappointing to see these patterns persist in manhwa. Thank you I rly enjoyed reading all your replies and I'm glad there's ppl who can criticise authors or anyone in general confidently when it comes to these types of plots. That's the only way bl authors can improve their upcoming work too..bc it's ok to make mistakes. I dont get why ppl are mad when others point out mistakes and give out suggestions..I whould love to hear them more than just happy comments. Thank u.
- (●'◡'●)ﾉ
You're absolutely right. I don't get why people are attacking you for your opinion. It's frustrating to see this kind of backlash, especially since it's so common in the genre. Toxic characters do terrible things, and then the narrative tries to redeem them with backstories of trauma or neglect. It feels like a cheap way to elicit sympathy.
Instead of genuinely developing the character, the author uses themes of rape, sexual assault, and abusive upbringing to justify his actions. It would have been far more impactful if he had simply recognized his flaws and made a real effort to change.
Its crazy to see these ppl defend him or even like him. The story started strong, and I hoped we could finally avoid the typical tropes that force us to sympathize with an abuser.
Also the argument that Suha wasn’t raped is crazy; you mentioned its coercion and it is still assault. Just because someone has faced hardships doesn’t give them the right to hurt others. Suha dealt with his own struggles but chose not to resort to violence.
You’re spot on—he’s still not healthy, and it’s disheartening to see how the narrative glosses over that. I still enjoyed the story overall, but it’s disappointing to see these patterns persist in manhwa. Thank you I rly enjoyed reading all your replies and I'm glad there's ppl who can criticise authors or anyone in general confidently when it comes to these types of plots. That's the only way bl authors can improve their upcoming work too..bc it's ok to make mistakes. I dont get why ppl are mad when others point out mistakes and give out suggestions..I whould love to hear them more than just happy comments. Thank u.
- (●'◡'●)ﾉ
Um Hi, it might be hypocrite of me but, i'm not here to offend anyone, nor defend anyone.
First of all, i get your point, and i'm agree with that, actually it opened my mind once again, so thankyou for that.
It's a reality check. Yes, this is fiction, and an indecent one at that. Sometimes ppl just had to get off some steam, and threw morale out the window for these occassion, so when we try to argue, logic doesn't work anymore.
Some ppl need to cool their head and see the others' argument as it is, and not distort or cite only the portion they dislike. Looking back, there's no reason to argue, only rooms for respect each other opinion. It's okay if we think diversely and not agree with each other, but there's no need to attack personally.
I want to say 'just be more mature', but come to think of it, there's big chance that there's a lot of 'minors' here and maybe that's why some comments got worked up over a fair and calm argument.
Anyway, I'm sorry for you to had those rather.. hostile replies. Honestly tho it was a good debate, sorry to say, but i actually enjoy them.
At the end of the day, everyone had the right to both have and voice their opinion. I mean, what's the purpose of comment section, bro?
I mean, dohyeok (the red hair) is literally a jerk, but tbh i read this manhwa bcs of him. Had to admit that 'punishable bottom' trope kinda my preference in this genre. I didn't even read the whole main story part, so I don't even think i had the right to comment that part.
Why didn't I read the main story? coz it's frustating. The plot, the mc too. I don't really like suha, not because he's bad, just the matter of preference, i'm not into twink bottom. Plus, the misunderstandings are so annoying when i read the second side story, like, even when they should be alrd knows each other so well?? But the communication is still that bad?? i can't imagine if i had to endure that for 100+ chapters long.
But there's also another reason as why i didn't read the main story. As i like dohyeok as the 'punishable bottom' trope, It really unbearable to see the character i'm rooting for as an iredeemable bastard who doesn't even regret his wrongdoings in the slighest. So yes, i choose to be blind and close my eyes as it is only a fiction, for the purpose of my own enjoyment.
Still, i hate dohyeok for that part, but also want a continuation in his pov. The unproper closure with siwoo still torturing me, but honestly at this point, it doesn't have to be siwoo. Author can make another character idc, i just want him to find someone he finally could be comfortable with. i still remember i had to swim in au fanfics just to soothe my soul from the heartbreak.
Anyway that's it lol sorry for the long ass comment, just want to voice my opinion.
Thank you. You are so sweet ┗( T﹏T )┛
I chose peace that day and tried my best to not be aggressive. I’m so happy you read my replies and agree with my points. I swear kids (and grown people on the same emotional development level as kids below 10) these days are so mean and have too much freedom on the internet.
I see people like that as hypocrites. They defend one victim by bringing down another victim while advocating for how trauma affects people. Absolutely no media literacy or self awareness.
Thank you again for this warm comment. The interaction above fouled my mood for the next few days, but your comment made my day.
(づ￣ ³￣)づ
I love discussions too. That’s why I leave my opinions and love reading other people’s opinions (ofc depending on their approach).
I see nothing wrong with liking the story or the character. There is actually a study on why people enjoy reading dark romance that contain rape or really obsessive love interests. And it’s because people project themselves on the main character that has no choice but to be forced into relationship and feel pleasure from sex, whereas in real life they are ashamed of thinking or enjoying sex. That way women (or man, or non-binary people) can enjoy sex and other things without feeling guilt of being slutshamed from society. Thats one reason. In any case, we all cope in different ways. I was just expressing my bewilderment over how people root for actually awful characters.
That’s how I am almost 90% sure the people who attack other people for similar opinion are kids (or have emotional intelligence of one), because they can’t recognise that you can feel sympathy for someone and still hold them accountable. Kids can’t comprehend difficult topics and emotions like that.
Or maybe people just view ‘bottom’ roles as something feminine, so when the red haired guy became a bottom and experienced all the rape - women started sympathising with him too much, defending him as if he is a woman who got wronged. It’s unconscious thing.
I understand nuances and that in many cases fiction is just fiction. Adult people know how to separate fiction from reality and know that these are not relationship goals. I’m not shaming anyone who enjoy this story (or these types of stories).
I also get your frustration about painting an ‘irredeemable bastard’ character, giving him whole separate extras and STILL remain a bastard without any redemption. Thats why I was frustrated too. I’m tired of authors taking more than they can chew: in this case, writing a villain with a story that makes him at least a little bit likeable. In my opinion, author fucked up by making this character a rapist and an abuser. That already makes him impossible to redeem or like. So the author got themselves into a corner and just decided to use cheap tricks like throwing as much trauma and awful things at him to make him pitiful.
Hi! I came across your reply in my notifications, and honestly, I really liked it. After reading through a lot of replies, I decided to write this, but it seems like I can’t reply using my @/Little Fighter account anymore—looks like someone chose to block me. So I made this new one, not out of spite, but because I believe conversations deserve closure.
I still remember, I cited one by one the statements they made that led to misunderstandings, and I had no intention of attacking them personally, really. I cited everything with the intention to clarify, but it seems like they just got more fired up, like a flame. Some people who show narcissistic traits definitely relate to this. Instead of focusing on the topic being discussed, they often bring in irrelevant things into the conversation—like, “I’m from this major, so I know better,” or “I’ve written amazing pieces that even won awards or were published.” But if they were really calm in their response, why would they bring up their writing achievements or their academic background into the topic? A great lawyer wouldn’t bring up their awards in court. A high-performing police officer wouldn’t mention their good track record during an investigation. The comment section exists for a reason. There’s nothing wrong with someone trying to clarify an opinion—even if, from certain people’s perspectives, it looks like an attack on the people with NPD. If we decide to post a public comment, then we should be ready to engage in follow-up discussions about it.
There’s a comment thinks they’ve responded “calmly.” But if that’s really true, why would they exert so much energy defending their opinion? Acting like they were the bigger person by saying, “I chose peace that day.” But if we read their entire response, there's an underlying energy—a refusal to be wrong—even though I’ve repeatedly explained that I just wanted to clarify things. But they remained stubborn about their stance. Because I was frustrated and didn’t want to drag this out with this kind of people, I apologized. And I quoted something they’d previously said—that they had a mental illness. So I quoted that and sincerely wished them a “get well soon.” Honestly, if they read that with an open mind, they’d think, “Oh, she’s wishing me well. Okay, thank you.” But they didn’t see it that way at all—they kept attacking by saying, “Why are you making it personal?” I swear to God, dealing with people with narcissistic traits is insanely difficult. These are people who always think they’re right—people who attack others personally in a subtle way by calling them childish, kids, crazy, and the like. Maybe they don’t like it when people attack others openly, like I did—but they themselves prefer to judge people personally just because they don’t agree with their opinion.
I also don’t think it’s wrong to assess characters like Dohyeok and other characters here using the “what if I were in their shoes” approach. The answers might be better, the same, or even worse. Everyone has different ways of processing things—some try to understand by thinking, “What if I were them?” while others stay rigid: “If it’s like this, then it’s wrong. It should’ve been like that.” I’ve said before, right from the start, that I’m not defending Dohyeok at all. I just want people to see a bigger picture. Dohyeok really is an awful person—I admit that. Honestly, this is just like when I said “Suha was never raped”—because that’s my perspective. Suha did it out of his own will and awareness. If some people disagree with that point of view, that’s fine. Who doesn’t enjoy discussions? But if people were really calm, they should’ve responded like, “Oh, if that’s what you think, then here’s mine.”
I’ve also said—at the end of the day, it’s up to each person who they want to hate. Some say, “It’s just fiction.” But sorry not to sorry, I think people like this maybe never had a fictional character they truly loved.
As a psychology student–too ... I feel ashamed saying this because I always think, what’s the point in giving so much energy to this, when I can’t even respect the author by buying the webtoon legally? Again, this is for me—if some people are triggered by this, then that’s not my problem. Maybe that’s why I’m skeptical about people who don’t respect the writers—whether good or bad, they still poured their hearts into those stories.
At the end of the day, no human opinion is 100% objective. In the end, there will always be some form of bias—no matter what angle we use. Because even theories in the world are applied based on what problem is at hand. And it’s up to each person how they choose to “see” other people’s comments. I feel guilty—I shouldn’t have gotten this deep into this comment. I truly regret it.
That’s all. I wrote this whole ass essay just because I had time, lol. Thanks for reading.
Says a person who started attacking me personally? I’m not even going to read all that and block you again. I won’t read all that. I write essay - I’m fired up and narcissistic for expressing my opinion for you saying things like ‘Suho wasn’t raped’ which is NOT an opinion or perspective. It’s a fact.
If you want to talk to them - go to DMs and mute this discussion. You can here to start flame again just for the sake of it. Bye.
The also weren’t even replying to you, gorl. Making a new account just to continue to shit on me is crazy and you genuinely need help lmao. I am a human too and you keep coming back to just make my day worse.
I was genuine when I wished you a good day to go and calm whatever is angering you so much in life. Move on. Block me.
If I had a nickel for every character that exclusively dated women before (and obv enjoyed it) and then started dating one (1) guy was called gay, I would be able to preorder the new Nintendo Switch 2.
I just don’t understand why authors are allergic to word ‘bisexual’. At this point, if I see someone just saying word ‘bisexual’ in manhwa (and manhuas/mangas) makes me want to stand up and applaud to the author. The story is also set in America, so I don’t get it.
“I didn’t know Luke was gay” WELL MAYBE YOU DIDNT KNOW BECAUSE HE IS NOT?????
I agree with your statement but I also think it’s a nuanced discussion. For me in this particular case, it seemed like he was using “gay” as an umbrella term to label his sudden switch, which certain people tend to do. I also do believe it’s not out of the ordinary to use that terminology specifically when it comes to straight people viewing/labelling queer relationships. What’re the odds of a straight man knowing to use “queer” instead of “gay” when his best friend of a long time suddenly starts dating a guy you know. So could the author have used the correct terminology when his friend found out? Yes but we also don’t know how the MC would even label himself so bisexual could technically be wrong and wouldn’t be the “correct” terminology anyway. Idk food for thought ƪ(- 3 -)ʃ
But there’s definitely a need for more bisexual representation in this genre!!! Bisexual men do exist and it wouldn’t hinder the story when adding it in.
Hey this is a reminder that gay is an umbrella term for queer people I'm bi myself and I constantly say I'm gay
Exactlyyy. But I do agree with the op that it would be nice to see authors make more use of the termology "bisexual"
Didn’t know it was an umbrella term, I apologise. I’ve read that it wasn’t always like this and bisexuality was a separate umbrella (like lesbianism and gay were also separate things), so I’m just outdated ╥﹏╥
But I see your point. Just fyi, I wasn’t actually angry in my OG post. I always get jokingly mad at things and use caps, but that’s not an indicator that I am mad at the author. I’m not actually outraged that author used term ‘gay’ for a bisexual person. I just decided to use this case to express disappointment that authors never go beyond ‘gay’ and ‘lesbian’ terms.
So yeah. Need more bisexual representation.
I think they are using gay as an umbrella term, cuz I have seen many lesbians call themselves gay. + Most people who are not very knowledgeable about the queer community doesn't know the difference between gay and bisexual ( Malcom is that guy)