Sh_eisa's Topics (149)

It feels like bunch of kids because they are kids. I guarantee you 90% here are under the age of 10 and can't fully comprehend layers and depth and people being flawed.
There is always the option to not read but they still do. Why? Because they enjoy it too and to cope they are toxic in the comments and wish death upon the comic artist and the fans instead of... idk? Not reading? Lol

So true! This is the reason why I have stopped reading readers review which are 75% of the time hate comments. I read first few chapters and if I don't like it, I just drop it. Which by the way I learned along the way since I was the type who always always see through the end once I picked up something. Later I realised not every story out there is for me and I don't have to be mean about it

Yep, I like toxic semes and redemption arcs because this never happens in real life lol but even I have some stories that are big NOPE for me. Discussiong likes and dislikes is fine but this obsessive hate is insane.

bro why do y'all always call the horrible rapist chatacter 'layered' and 'flawed' like no bitch he's just shit. like raping someone doesn't make your life story so much deeper than anybody else's and honestly i would rather invest my time in reading a story where the 'layered' and 'flawed' character is actually deep and not just a horrible man with a hot body

Yea, go read it. Bye

i just wonder why y'all enjoy these characters. like what do you get out of rooting for a character who will forever be anything they are AND a rapist. like how do you look past that?

Why should anyone justify enjoying a fictional story/character to you? In fact it is weirder if you don't enjoy the story or hate it and you still read it but it is your choice to read a story with ML that you hate, you are an adult (hopefully) and you understand that this is just fiction. You understand that this is just fantasy for those that like to enjoy some drama and you also understand that this is not real life. If you aren't an adult then leave for your own good.

couple things:
1) you're not obliged, of course. but if you don't explain then don't get mad that people disagree with you.
2) i didn't fully read this story. i'm commenting only because of how disgusted i am with it. could you say i'm wasting my time? sure, fair enough.
(ps: if you pull out some "you gotta read the entire thing to understand", literally stfu)
3) i know it's fiction but fiction mimics reality. if someone found joy in reading fictional depictions of child torture, would you think "it's just fiction and being an adult means all fictional work is valid"? or would you think "yo why the fuck do you enjoy reading about child torture?"? i think it's pretty clear that enjoying a story that depicts rape not in spite of it but because of it is telling about a person's character.
4) rape, sexual violence and financial manipulation aren't the only ways (they're not even the best/easiest ways) to make a story dramatic. characters can be flawed without being outright terrible people. many stories i've read have ruined characters last minute for falling into this trope of making a character into a rapist to give them more depth, as if rape isn't mainly about power and control.

Sweetie, honey calm down. We listen to what everybody says but don't agree to what everybody says. Now remember this whenever you feel like venting

i'm not asking you to agree with me but instead explain why you disagree with me. i feel like my point of view makes sense and i don't understand yours. there's no need to get defensive if you have a valid reason to think the way you do.

There is no need to explain it to you. Fiction and thoughts are not illegal even if what is depicted is.
Unless you are a supporter of anti free speech, thoughts policing and book burning.
There are certain things that I find deplorable and would never read even in fiction but as long as it is not allowed for kids and nobody gets harmed while making it then I don't give a shit and you shouldn't either.
Adults have the right to read anything and can decide to do anything they want as long as it is not illegal.
If you truly care about rape then you should join or give money to non profit organizations for child sex trafficking. There are many organizations to help victims in underdeveloped and developed countries. If I'm not wrong a woman gets raped every 2 hours in Pakistan, they ACTUALLY need help. Please, if you truly want to do good and not just be toxic, go help those in need instead of wanting to censor gay comic about toxic cartoon man that you didn't even read. Be real.

Fine I'll explain it to you, slowly.

First of all stop shouting rape, rape at every conflicted sex scene. What they entered into was mutually advantageous and CONSENSUAL deal. Now let's address the part he could've been gentle or whatever, the first sight Dan literally saw was Jakeyung being rough and moody with his previous sex partner. Next part, When Jakeyung assumed Dan already had experience(that was asshole move), he didn't deny it and was in pain.

With all this point I am not justifying jakeyung being an asshole, because that he is. But I'm asking where is the rape. Dan wasn't threatened or manipulated into staying as well, he can leave anytime. Dan was really helpless with his situation so he endured it but he endured with knowing everything with his own will.

Stop demeaning the word RAPE, it's very real and very traumatizing.

What pilwon did to Jooha was rape, he threatened him, kept him captive even. Do i like pilwon? It makes me puke to even think about him but there are ppl who do like him for whatever reasons. Am I going around asking why? No.

Infact, the "green flag" Dooshik had also staged a rape and he is the "Husband" Of entire bl community. People say it was for revenge for his love, he was broken. But tell me, does a rapist's family deserve rape for it to be fair? Does anyone "deserve" Rape? It's fact and I am not criticizing any fictional character over here.

Read and comprehend before being influenced into shouting the same thing as everyone else. Everyone have their own set of moral compass and if we go by other people standards then isn't having sex before marriage highly immoral? Why are we reading that?

That will be your homework, now good night

please do not pretend you give a single fuck about actual rape victims. it's honestly disgusting that you would weaponize their situation to make me look bad. and i say disgusting bc it literally has my stomach churning that you're this opposed to being questioned.
you're free to think what you want but that doesn't mean you're free from criticism when you express what you think.
and also how fucking dare you? how dare you compare being suggested to critically consume art to book burning and thought policing?

a couple things:
1) it was rape because it was coerced. he went to jakeyung's place under false pretenses. as soon as he went in, he witnessed jakeyung (a boxing champ btw) physically assault his sexual partner. only then was it revealed that the entire reason he was called over was so he would have sex with him which he does accept under some very sketchy circumstances (bet you've heard of financial manipulation, that's what that was). he was made to choose between letting someone he only knows to be violent penetrate him anally so he'd get money or leaving without anything, and he had very little time to decide (my point is, when your options are "let yourself be raped" or "be unable to afford living", you're not really making a choice either way).
dan says "yes" to being asked if he's experienced, which jakeyung takes to mean it's all fine and dandy to force himself on him. dan is able to slither away but only for an hour after which he is thrown on the bed and dragged around as he yells "wait" and "i can't do this" to which jakeyung threatenes him with violence (quote "if you waste my time like that last little bitch, don't expect to be sent home safe and sound"). have i refreshed your memory enough? like threatening violence if someone rejects having sex with you is coercion but let's continue!!
he is then anally penetrated both by jakeyung's finger and by his penis, to which he yells "stop" and "it hurts". jakeyung does in fact not stop and threatens dan again ("keep testing my patience and i'll smash your head in") and tells him to "just take it" (like any good rapist does amirite). we also learn jakeyung likes making dan cry (from the pain btw) and that dan started bleeding from his ass.

2) pilwon is a rapist and one of the worst characters i've had the displeasure to read about but i wasn't reading pearl boy (back when i was still reading it) for him (because i'm morally consistent). i stopped reading it after the whole arranged gang rape thing dooshik organized. idk why you're projecting but since i am consistent, i dislike that character just as much and have had the same discussion i'm having with you with them. and guess what? y'all think the exact same way.

Struck a nerve huh? Lets not rewrite history and gaslight, you joined the conversation because you don't like other people reading and enjoying what you dislike, it was never about criticizing the manwha but US.
Yes, YOU actually don't care about rape victims, YOU only care about hating on readers of a comic that has motives that you don't like that's why you come here and argue with us even though the manwha hasn't been going for months because you want to feel like you are doing something good but actually, anything you are doing here is worthless and you are not helping a single victim. You come here just to argue, to feel like you matter and you are doing something but if you really wanted to help you would stop right now and go help others in dire situations. It literally takes one google search but no, you are here arguing with adults about what they can or cannot read. You are the part of the problem. Instead of focusing on what truly matters (real human victims) you are crying about imaginary characters. GROW THE FUCK UP, LOSER. And you now think that I am the bad one for bringing it up? I'm just stating reality and how shallow and worthless your actions are.You brought this upon yourself.

Hi there. Victim of SA here. Friend of a victim of rape here. Person who has done years of work analyzing how consent is taught in school curriculum and how it appears in media here. Person who is currently assistant teaching a class on sex ed here. Person who is currently doing paid research to help develop college curriculum meant to prevent sexual violence on campuses here.

I don’t agree with everything the other person is saying and how they’re framing their argument. But I do agree that there is an extent to which you can derive someone’s opinions and beliefs on real life issues based off of how they engage with the art and media they consume—not WHAT art and media they consume, but HOW they engage with it. You can probably also figure out what societal messages they’ve internalized, too. Personally, I have no issues with Jinx existing. I mean, I think it could be far, far better written and has wasted potential (I’m rereading it now and taking notes so that I can delve deeper into my own thoughts and analysis), and I think the way that the story ultimately lands will indeed in and of itself be harmful as it might reinforce a narrative that is often told to people in our society (“just stick it out with your abusive partner, it’ll be worth it in the end”), but, okay. Fine. It’s out there.

But as someone who IS, you know. Concerned about things like rape and sexual assault. I do find it deeply concerning when many people read this webtoon and can’t identify what is happening in the story as such. Or are willing to use incredibly classical victim-blaming narratives to justify what happens. I can understand looking past it or turning your brain off or even enjoying the non consensual element(s) if that’s your thing, so long as you can ultimately see how and why it’s not consensual or, at the very least, unethical. I become incredibly worried when people…can’t do that.

Today I got to know from a random stranger on the internet that I am a horrible person. Noted. I will add it to my resume.

Now get out of my comment section.

of course it struck a nerve lmao? i'm human and the shit you're saying is truly disturbing, it does make me feel like shit knowing that people like you exist.
also you only ever bring up victims to take the focus off of yourself, you do in fact not give a flying fuck.
consuming art uncritically and justifying immoral acts does influence how you percieve the world. you may think the line between fiction and reality is crystal clear but i bet you've internalized ideas and concepts from fiction and applied them to reality.

lastly, let me just show you my argument in a way that'd be more agreeable:
let's say someone is reading a webtoon and the main character (A) is 12 and the main love interest (B) is 40. people in the comments talk about how nice B is to A but there's this one commenter saying they're all weird and horrible for justifying pedophilia, even if it's fictional. what would you make of the people defending B's actions? would you not think they're messed up? would that mean that the people critiquing them don't care about real life child sexual abuse victims because they're commenting about the webtoon?

naur cause you wildly accused me of defending a similar character (which i actually also hate) and had me describe in detail how the rape was depicted and this is your response? just admit you didn't pay that much attention and rape took place.
also "get out of my comment section"? lmao who do you think you are?

Sigh. You clearly don't comprehend what you read, you just proved it, it was an example and i never said you were defending the similar character. Your problem is you want to "win" the argument. Daddy issues?

You have caused enough toxicity for my monthly quota so yes please leave respectfully and who am I?
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You can call me Daddy or Father if you prefer it

WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE ACTUALLY INSANE
i actually can't stop laughing, thank you so much for that

I never denied anything about the suffering of Dan and that he is or isn't a victim. What I am saying is that as an adult I have the right to read anything that is 18+ where victims like yourself aren't harmed.
You say that media like this is normalizing abuse for those that read it? Possibly. And you know what? I still think it doesn't matter because as an adult you should have the right to consume anything that you want as long as it is not illegal and you are not harming anyone.
I would also like to add that our society has never been as aware of SA and its ramifications as before and we now take it more seriously than ever and that's fucking awesome. (At least in the west) There still can be some work done, especially on the front of male SA, human trafficking and longer sentences for those crimminals but I'm really proud of how far we have come.
But back to my previous point..
If reading yaoi comic about problematic consent is bad than what about drinking alcohol, doing other legal drugs, watching porn excessively and gambling? All of these things are bad for you as an adult but you still have the free will to do them because you are not a child.
I'm going to say a bit about myself just to sort of further push my point across.
I am in a happy long term relationship with marriage on the way with a man that is the most gentle beautiful angel on the planet, literally my dream man, I'm not saying this to boast but to make you and others understand that I as an adult understand that what I read in fiction I don't do in real life. In fact I'm the first person that will scream that this is fiction and you def should not try to replicate it. That's why I would honestly prefer if all kids under 18 were banned off of social media and internet as a whole. Because unlike adults, their brain is moldable and often times they can't think for themselves.

Yep, I brought the victims BECAUSE that's what person that actually cares about SA would do. Not someone that just wants to argue about toxic seme and now you jump to extremes and bring up a kid? Disgusting, anyone but pedo would find fucking a kid disgusting but you know what? It doesn't actually affect my point at all. As I said previously AS LONG AS NO VICTIM gets hurt even deplorable fictional material like this has the right to exist if it's legal.
There is so so so much CP made, there are literally factories for women to birth kids and those then get processed to either go to sex slavery or for organ harvesting. This shit is happening in real life and you complain about SA done by a cartoon man. Think about it, legit.
I am not defending any toxic/problematic seme's actions, I am saying that even then you can like whatever you want if it is fiction. You can even enjoy torture, murders whatever deplorable shit you want.
Same does not apply for anything that has real humans involved that is why I personally believe that most if not all porn is unethically made and many SA victims actually get harmed, forced to do it and you will never know who is SA victim and who isn't and that's why I don't watch porn at all.
You can criticize fans of any media that you dislike, you may not understand why they like what they like and even if for the sake of argument they read disgusting stuff about child SA victims... you know what people do if you criticize them? They double down. In fact your words have no real effect on other people, you may ruin their day or make it better but most people are hard in their ways and bullying them online will not affect anything. It will just waste your time. What can actually do something is actions. That's why helping others irl is so so important. Not arguing with weirdos online. There is obviously a difference between arguing and exchanging ideas but I doubt that this is happening rn, you find me most deplorable but I honestly don't care if you think that something is wrong with me for reading and enjoying this, I am an adult and can do anything I want.
I have a feeling that you are a teen and if that is so, you should go out of your way to protect your psyche. Don't engage with people just in order to argue with them, it will lead nowhere. Minimize contact with online trolls and argue andies like myself and don't push hate online because you disagree with someone. It will just make you depressed.
In case you are an adult, this still applies but you can do whatever you want. I will always support any adult person's free will to do anything they want even if what they want to do is bad for them.

I didn’t say that reading this stuff was in and of itself bad. Note that I made a clear distinction. It’s not what you interact with that matters so much as how you interact with it. I am concerned about people reading this and being unable, or refusing, to identify rape as rape. I understand that this is not necessarily all the fault of the webtoon but of broader societal issues at play. So if you are one of the ones who can recognize why Dan and Jaekyung’s relationship is wildly unethical and abusive and does involve rape, then fine. I’m not addressing you.

I agree we’ve come a bit further as a society on our understanding of rape and sexual assault. Or, well, I want to say that. But in the US, we’ve just elected a rapist, so. But anyway, the issue I’m identifying in terms of audience response/perception of the relationship between Dan and Jaekyung also tells me we’ve not come far enough and our understanding is still quite shallow, actually. And if I’m assuming people are generally as old as they’re claiming they are, it’s certainly not just an issue with younger people, but adults as well. Not saying it’s the webtoon’s fault, again. But it is demonstrative.

And to the point of normalizing abuse…if there’s anyone to blame for that, it is the author more so than just readers. You as a reader may read whatever you like, absolutely. But I think it’s our responsibility as artists to be careful about the types of messages we put out there, consciously and subconsciously. And it’s our responsibility to be aware of how those messages are playing into some of these broader societal issues, too. Just like how you can read pretty much anything you want, you can create pretty much anything you want. But it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. We talk about representation in media and how important it is all the time, after all.

That’s why I’m partially withholding some judgement on Jinx—I don’t know how it will ultimately end. I also understand it’s meant to be a fantasy where some shitty abuser turns over a new leaf and changes for the one he “loves.” I get the gratification in that. But as a society we do already have a tendency to send this message to people in deeply abusive relationships, such as this one, that they should just stick out that abuse and/or forgive their abusers for their actions, even if/when they haven’t done the work to become better people…let alone acknowledge and genuinely apologize for their actions. And this messaging is something that hurts people of all ages and all genders.

So me, personally, given that the author has gone so hard on the abuse itself without tactfully delving into its ramifications and nuances thus far, and knowing that Dan and Jaekyung are ultimately to get together regardless, I feel like this webtoon is just going to end up leaning into that type of messaging without saying or doing anything new about it. I’m not against exploring this type of narrative altogether. I think it’s a question worth asking—how much does someone like this need to do to actually redeem themselves? To earn back the trust of someone they’ve hurt so deeply—if that trust can even be earned back, if they even deserve that? But I’d need to see really radical change on Jaekyung’s part before I can feel more satisfied by this story. And I don’t know if I trust this author to pull it off.

I know right?! I have that effect in real life as well. Thanks for the amusement, it was like watching a newborn giraffe learn to walk. So Adorable

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. The artist can draw whatever they want no matter how toxic. Unlike porn, no real people are involved. If it is 18+ content then I don't care and everyone has free will to do whatever they want. Adults are not children for others to police even if it sends harmful messages.
Controlling what others can and can't say and how they can say it is bad no matter how you put it even if you have good intentions.
This is how millions of people die in dictatorships. One or select few people decide that they know better than anyone else and theat everyone as children. Nope, we are equals and we as adults have the right to destroy our life if that is what we want. The opposite is true as well, you can do so much good if you apply your free will well and help those in need instead of controling free seech.
As an American you should understand the necessity of free speech, it is the bulding block upon which your nation rests.
I won't deny that the relationship in jinx is toxic, that's the whole point. There will be redemption arc, he will beg Dan to forgive him, bla bla bla, it's wish fulfillment fantasy, everyone knows that. It doesn't matter how it is written, every story doesn't have to be realistic or educational book on what is SA and how people should ACTUALLY behave in such situation. People are not children that you have to educate about problematic issues at every corner.
I am very happy with informing people and making dedicated content for that but leave that out of my porn please.

I literally said that people can create whatever they want…just that I think they should know that their art doesn’t exist in a vacuum, that they should be aware of and understand what broader societal messages they may be playing into, and that they ought to be responsible about how they go about those things. Even free speech in America has its limits, places where we draw the line. I cannot call a bomb threat, even if false, and expect no legal consequences. And we have a variety of laws against hate speech, even if that speech doesn’t directly result in the physical harm of someone else. There are other exceptions that come into play at other points, too. We’ve drawn lines in the sand with regards to certain types of speech because we recognize that some of it can be and often is genuinely harmful, especially to marginalized groups of people.

I’m not an advocate for governmental/legal censorship and I never will be. I’ve already said I have no issues with Jinx merely existing in and of itself. That said, there is a huge difference between critique and censorship. Acting as if people critiquing this webtoon and its messaging—or the people who are uncritically engaging with it—en masse is akin to throwing someone in prison for saying that queer people should have rights, for example, is ridiculous. And acting as if the legislators who are out there actively doing book bans on queer media are doing so because they caught wind of some shitty yaoi webtoons on some pirating site is just as laughable. Jinx is simply not that important. If YOU believe in free speech then YOU should understand I have the freedom to critique this webtoon as I like.

If this was indeed a porn without plot with all its proper tagging and everything, I’d have even less of an issue with how it goes about depicting things. See Ao3, for example. I can see some of the most abhorrent content known to man on there and generally rest well assured that everyone is approaching it with the understanding that it is abhorrent and that they’re there just to goon because that shit is tagged. The porn without plot generally tends not to do the plot thing, as well.

Jinx, however, is different to me. It’s not tagged properly in my opinion, for one. But alright, fine. People go rawdog it. Are they met with a dumb porn without plot? Nope. The porn has a plot. Or, it’s trying to have one. And its very premise—one where one character must address his flaws and the way he has hurt the other character, one where he must learn and grow as a person—PROMISES plot. It PROMISES an acknowledgement of the abuse Jaekyung has subjected Dan to. It PROMISES that we see the impact OF that abuse on Dan, and it PROMISES that Jaekyung will somehow make up for it in order to win Dan’s heart (for real). Or am I wrong?

It’s not that I want this webtoon to be some kind of instructional or educational manual or anything—I don’t know why people think that’s what I’m asking of it when I say these things. I acknowledge the author doesn’t necessarily have any obligation to depict things with the nuance I’d like. I just think that, given what she’s already included, and what the story plans to do, to NOT explore these things in depth would be to continue to half-ass what genuinely could’ve been a more decent story. It’s not even about morality and responsibility and all that, it’s a matter of writing quality for me with some of this. Like you can’t have Dan lying in bed depressed for days after their first encounter, Jaekyung constantly belittling Dan in and outside of sex, Jaekyung pouring a can of soda over Dan’s head, Jaekyung throwing away a gift Dan bought for him out of the kindness of his heart…and then not like. Address those things. At all. Especially during the arc where it’s meant to be addressed. That’s just shitty writing to me.

Oops. Well. My response is above.

Like really though…I may be allowed to draw black people as monkeys, or give all Asian people slit eyes and buck teeth in my art, or I can make all my gay characters predatory and pedophilic. Sure maybe the law shouldn’t prosecute me for doing these things, but does that mean it isn’t harmful? Does that mean I shouldn’t think twice about what I’m depicting? Does that mean I should just put these kinds of things out there just because I can? And does that mean I shouldn’t face any scrutiny at all?

Yes, bomb threats are harmful because it results in people possibly getting killed. Making a porn comic about toxic relationship isn't a bomb thread or hate speech.
As long as a thing is not harming anyone and is not illegal (as I stated numerous times before) then I don't give a shit.
You said that that it is the responsibility of the author to handle SA properly. I say it isn't and the writer can write whatever they want. Just criticizing is alright but that's not what many people in the comment section are saying. They want the work to be stopped. They don't want others to read it and they actively attack and bully others who enjoy this "problematic" work, like even people here in this exact convo previously.
You can do whatever you want, read it, don't read it, criticize it but it is only fair that you get criticizm back, after all you joined this conversation of your own free will.
The funny part is that the hate makes this manwha hyper popular so even more people will be exposed to it and read it.
If you want to argue about story not making sense and not being depicted the way you think would give it the most depth then go ahead, voice your opinion but I like the story, I like where it is going and it's entertaining and I don't give a shit that it's problematic.

So I don’t support harassment or bullying either (though to be frank I’ve been seeing it coming from people on both? all sides? of the discussion). I don’t agree completely with the critiques people have levied against the webtoon and its readers, either. Of course it’s silly to want the webtoon to be stopped and people enjoying the webtoon is not in and of itself bad. But also I don’t think that’s the whole of people’s critiques of either the webtoon or its readers.

Anyway, if you enjoy it, fine. I can’t take that away from you, nor do I care to. I feel like you missed some of the nuances of what I was saying, though. Like genuinely, what do you think about the example I gave about portraying things like racial stereotypes in art?

God you know what? Who cares. Nothing matters to anyone anymore. Bon voyage.

LMFAO, ngl I hate cheating so much so I’m relieved in some way.

Same here, I mean beggars can't be choosers right

literally how are they gonna keep hyung but then change ahjussi, like yall there is no equivalent to calling someone ahjussi in english except maybe uncle which still doesn't come close, SOME WORDS CAN'T BE TRANSLATED like I still can't get over dattebayo being transalated to "believe it" y'all are stressing me outttt

Exactly, some words are just emotions. They all need to be felt and not understood. Period