Lilyco's Topics (141)

Yup. CP should be gone, exterminated. I do have my fantasies, but in real life, I don’t want to be raped by anyone unless it’s CNC (consensual non consent role play) with a trusted partner.

"Of course, no one is likely to act out these scenarios in real life. unless they’re truly unhinged tho (ò_óˇ)"

Sorry to say, this doesn't really scientifically, theoretically, or analytically hold up. Korea and Japan have huge issues with sexual assault and rape, to the point where more than 1/3 of all women have been sexually assaulted in their life times. Cell phones have to have shutter sounds so people don't take upskirt photos of women and there has to be women only trains to prevent harassment.

There is a reason why you find non con and other problematic content in manhwa and manga specifically, it represents a broader problem in their societies where this is normalized. Human beings are susceptible to propaganda and the normalization of sexual assault in fiction is part of that.

It's true that not all people who read this kind of stuff wish for it to happen in real life, but it's a much bigger and real problem than what you make it out to be. Being influenced by fictional works have always been common, a lot of sexual assault stems from porn for example.

You're not nessecarily a bad person if you read this, but your initial assessment isn't true either. No hate.

That doesn’t really apply to yaoi pornography that’s catered to women. Women are literally trained to serve their husbands in East Asia. They are told that their duty is to honor their husbands and sons, that things like domestic violence and marital rape are not reasons to leave. I think Revenge/Reverse Thinking makes perfect sense when put up against the EA misogynistic background that exists alongside it. It’s still lowkey porn slop, but it’s porn slop made for women by women. And it’s a story about a man who did bad things to women being dehumanized in turn. I highly, HIGHLY doubt this is going to give the female audience the impetus to want to start raping men IRL. It’s very different from pornography that caters to men. Where a lot of yaoi exists as a power fantasy for women, most East Asian men will flex the power they have over them no matter what.

I totally get where you're coming from and I do agree that media and fiction can reflect and even influence broader cultural attitudes.
That said, my org comment was more about how people engage with fictional content, especially when it's clearly marked as fantasy or problematic. In this case, the manhwa we’re talking about involves violence and harassment between men, not women. Which doesn’t make it okay but it’s a different social context than what u described with gendered violence in public spaces.
I'm not saying problematic media can’t have an impact! it obviously can!! especially when it's consumed uncritically or glamorized. But I also think it’s possible to read dark or taboo fiction (including non-con stories) while fully recognizing its harmful themes and still not be endorsing them. Many people read such works precisely caz they exist in a safe, fictional space where they can process dark themes or complex emotions.
To be clear, I’m not defending all forms of this content. Like I mentioned before, I draw a hard line when it comes to anything involving children. But I think there’s room for mature readers to explore fictional scenarios, even immoral ones, without being morally compromised themselves.
it's not a black and white issue and I don’t think either of us is totally wrong here.
And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that sexual harassment whether it's between men or involves a woman harassing a man is acceptable in any context, fictional or otherwise. But at the same time, let's not lose sight of the setting we're in. This is a site, where many readers primarily women engage with fantasy scenarios that are intentionally exaggerated, dark, or transgressive. It's a space for exploring complex themes through fiction, not a manifesto for real life behavior. So maybe we don’t need to come down quite so hard on ppl for engaging with content that exists precisely because it’s understood to be fictional.

You may have misunderstood the point I was making, I don't particully think that violent yaoi manga or manhwa is going to nessecarily cause women to rape men in droves. I still think it reflects a broader problem of rape and sexual harassment culture inside of East Asian countries. Yaoi for the most part is catered to straight women and one way it does so is that it mymics heterosexual relationship dynamics. And because those dynamics are still so similar, it still contributes to the normamlization of that behavior. In this case, it is more so a contributing factor rather than a direct cause. Normalization may reinforce the stigma of reporting sexual assault cases for example, or lead to more material being made that can fall into the hand of bad actors.

Now, this doesn't exactly mean that reading this suddently means you're a bad person or that you're directly contributing to rape culture in these countries, but it's important to consume such content with caution and a critical lense. There is an undeniable direct correlation to the content you cosume and how it effects the world around you. Both things can be true at once, reading this stuff doesn't really make you a horrible or even a bad person depending on how you cosume it and at the same time it still is part of the bigger issue.

I replied to another comment in this thread that addressed some of your points here, and while I am aware that fiction can be enjoyed in isolation from real world events my point still stands.

There is a difference between works used for gratification vs works used to question the bounds of morality. Works made for gratification still may indirectly encourage real world behaviors. While I'm defiently not saying anyone who reads this is a bad person or will go on to commit sex crimes, the part of your brain responsible for gratification often processes real and fictional pornography the same way. In turn this may cause some people to seek even further means of satification. It is just a part of human biology. Because of this it is important to aknowelge that while hopefully the majority of people can treat fictional scenarios as their own thing, there are still cases where some people don't and it may end up influencing their actions in real life. My original comment was only intended to clear up a common misconception among people that has been studied and proven to be false by both statistcs and the study of human biology.

I appreciate your perspective! For me I never see the point in blaming yaoi in particular for people’s bad behavior. Mostly because I see a lot of it as a form of sexual exploration for the East Asian women that make it. There is a genuine argument to be made in the case of hetslop and irl porn where women are degraded. It’s even worse with real porn because porn studios are infamous for putting their actresses in precarious situations for men to jerk off to. There are plenty of studies about why heterosexual pornography is in such a rough state right now and how men view it as an optimal way to treat women. Still, there is an argument to be made about how a lot of yaoi was and still is very heteronormative and not indicative of what all gay relationships are like. (Obviously). I am not saying that female sexual and power fantasies are infallible. Just that in the grand scheme of things that they are not on the same level. In the modern internet there are plenty of bad actors who might use shit like yaoi or hentai to exploit young people. But I honestly view it as more of an issue of predatory behavior itself being normalized online. Like you could have the most benign yaoi ever, but you couldn’t ever stop a creep from being a creep. It ultimately falls to us in the communities to vehemently call out the bad eggs. But people hardly ever do because it’s just more convenient to be mad about some guys kissing on the screen.

Fair, I definitely agree that heterosexual content far worse than Yaoi when it comes to contributing to real life behaviors. I still think it does reflect a more broader view of East Asian culture in general and while the influence may not be direct, so much so, I would still pay heed to caution.

This is why its important to take in the facts and analyze the impact of fiction (etc) with a critical eye considering the nuance of the situation. I think works like this have the right to exist, they should, I don't believe in censoring fiction. But let's put it this way, If you make owning fire arms illegal, it still will not fix the problem, but it still will reduce gun violence in some way. Or in other words, while there's little we can do about these behaviors irl, it's still essential to understand how what media you consume may have an impact on the world whether directly or indirectly. Reaching a middle ground is key. I'm at work so I can't fully reply and I'm not sure how clear what I'm saying is but to keep it short I think it's fair to be critical of this stuff without fully accusing it at the same time.

I think I get about your point but I do think it's a little funny that you said "I don't believe in censoring fiction" and then immediately went to gun control lmao. And I support gun control lol. It's just that yaoi is not even remotely comparable.

I'm not comparing them, more or so just using it as an anology to get my point across. I like doing extreme anology because it's funny and it emphasizes what I'm saying. I could say "If you ban certian content, that although it won't stop the content from being consumed it will make it less accessible." But that's lengthy and boring.

Ooook sure there's always gonna be some chronically online weirdos who can't tell fiction from reality. But that's 100% a them problem, those people were already messed up to begin with. Like what kind of unhinged dumbass actually copies what they read? Normal people don't do that.
I get your point tho, some problematic stories probably shouldn't be given too much attention. They shouldn’t be normalized. At the end of the day, fiction needs to stay fiction. The real issue is whether someone's got enough common sense and basic human decency to know what not to do in real life.As long as people can tell the difference between a story and actual morality, we're good.

It is a them problem but the only things is this only holds up in theory and not in practice. There's always going to be unhinged people regardless. Think of it this way, you can't stop people from doing bad things, but taking away that outlet can help prevent those from getting the access to ideas and persuasion caused by harmful material.

That's why there needs to be a hard line when it comes to fiction. On one hand, people should be able to digest fiction, even problematic fiction as long as they do it responsibly and respectfully. I don't like comments on this manga insulting those who read it for example so I was not disagreeing with you outright. Those are annoying and helps no one, it doesn't actually provide any valid critique. Everyone here knows this story has problematic things, saying the same things over and over again does nothing.

At the same time, it's also important to recognize when a story is problematic, analysize and critique the problematic themes so you consume media with nuance and not at face value. If you're going to say something is bad, actually go into depth as to why its bad instead of saying the sky is blue.

But yeah I am really bad at getting my point across, your original comment wasn't wrong! I was just giving some additional input

It's called scat as a genre and yes there are plenty xD

meant to like ┗( T﹏T )┛