I kinda feel like she's the child of Lucas. No way they make a point of him having vanished, despite the impossibility of it, and don't make him show up again. He's basically Chekhov's invalid prince.
You know, I read a lot of stories with the Regression and Revenge Trope, it's sort of a guilty pleasure of mine. Since there are sometimes some more and some less aggressive holes in those, I can just forgive and forget those, because they entertain me and I usually don't have to think about them for too long... unless they jump in my face as if I was out on the Nostromo. So what about this story right here? Well, I've reached Chapter 28 of this and I must say, if the writing was any more inbred, we could call it a fucking sandwich.
The plotline is riddled with stretches and holes so bad, any form of throughline has the integrity of an overcooked noodle - not even snapping, but just sadly smooshing into paste at any point of pressure.
But let's begin with the premise, since there isn't even a synopsis of this out: The Protagonist is the Daughter of the most powerful Duke in the Kingdom, and she's promised to soon be wed to one of the Kindom's three princes, Raymond. After they marry, he sits on the throne, but Sofia, the MC, doesn't know he's actually having an affair with her best friend Samantha and gives no shit about Sofia. Her Family is in his way, because their power is just too great, so he frames them for treason and has them all executed. She returns back into the past by two years, a short time before their engagement was originally announced, so she devises a plan to marry the first prince, Alexis - who's, of course, an illegitimate child with no political power to speak of - in order to sit that one on the throne instead.
Well, at least I wish I could say she devises a plan, but she actually makes it up as she goes along. That in and of itself, as someone being thrown into this situation without real preparation, isn't a problem to me though. The problem comes in when you actually see how she does things.
First off: Protagonist is really early on told by her Love Interest, First Prince Alexis, that she is "good at reading people", which is later being echoed by a situation in the past, in which Raymond came into her jail cell and blabbed to her about his numerous evil plots (we will talk about that later, so keep that in mind) and seemed to be in a good mood, so she tells him "You seems to be in a good mood" and he answers how she got good at reading his mood (or people in general). The thing is, she could have learned that in jail, but it's highly unlikely. Learning something like that when under constant scrutiny is one thing, but she just sat in a cell and barely saw anyone. If anything, she can read him, maybe Samantha, but not people in general. She would need way more experience.
And why was that not a thing she could do before, in my opinion? Well, let's talk about something else to tie into that first, shall we? I love how stories always try to hit the point of someone being evil home by either treating children - or, if available, some sort of otherwordly race - badly (because treating people in general badly is just not that interesting anymore, I guess) or by the author having them talk down to a female person of any age and empasizing the fact that it's a female person. In his case, Raymond thinks about her as someone who "should have" only smiled and gone along with him and his plans, because she was just a stupid woman. But the thing is... I know this is what the author is going for, but first of all, sexism in a time in which this sort of thinking wasn't stigmatized and therefore just normal (there's a cute little word for you, and it's "Indoctrination" - though just the regular mindset of that time, which nobody questioned, would be even more true, but the term Indoctrination might give you a clue) and he wouldn't have been considered evil for thinking that way, which in turn means he doesn't have to be evil to be thinking that way, because it's simply normal - only the smallest number of people would think differently, because they simply have no reason to. Also, that was exactly how she had acted. Within the story, we see her best friend being denied into her home once and she threw a complete Shitfit. I'm supposed to believe they were best friends for ages, but Sofia has never once in their entire friendship said the word "no" to Samantha? Or did she throw an aggressive fit like that and Sofia just didn't question it and kept putting Samantha before everything else? The prince and Samantha's cheating behavior was so obvious too. But Sofia? None the wiser.
She had no talent for reading people; life basically just passed by her, as she let everyone fool her back to front. At this point, I cannot tell if Raymond is supposed to be sexist, when viewed through a modern, western lense, or if he actually said that because "a stupid woman that only smiled and went along with everything" was exactly what he had seen she was the entire time: A willing doormat. Queen of motherfucking density. No way in hell is she now "good at reading people" because she sat in a cell and talked to that soggy napkin a few times.
But aside from that, the story gets all the details wrong: When she first talks to the other prince, Alexis, they are at a ball in the palace and stand on an easily accessible balcony, talking about how Prince Raymond plans to kill Alexis and how she plans to put Alexis on the throne in Raymond's place, but instead of whispering all of that highly dangerous stuff, they shout their shit at each other as if they were a couple of geriatric motherfuckers riddled with aids - overall, she loves shouting things, especially when its about stuff that should be kept secret. For example, that Raymond kidnapped a girl to force her older brother, who's on Alexis' side, to literally stab him in the back when they go to war a few days after said ball at the palace.
Raymond also held his captive, who is also known to the knights of the kingdom, apparently, in a warehouse that belongs to the fucking palace, befitting his role as the human embodiment of a participation award.
Anyway, the prince then doesn't simply confirm her words of someone having been kidnapped, by saving that person and bringing them back, but insists on taking her with him to said warehouse to save them. When in reality, if she was actually involved and this was a trap, she could come with him and get out unharmed anyway, because she wouldn't have been a target of the trap, unless the perp wanted her gone. Neither would have made a difference to Alexis. Taking her would only slow him down and inconvenience him, possibly leading to him losing the sister of one of his most loyal man with a half-assed rescue mission.
MC later wants to learn self defense, but it turns out she almost breaks down just from holding a sword, which was obvious, because you don't teach anyone swordsmenship before checking their stamina and building it up as a fundament. But the trainer, who's btw the girl that was kidnapped before, just hands her a sword and we are supposed to believe they trained just like that. Also, that girl was kidnapped, but the author saw the irony, so they had that 5 feet tall girl, 90 pounds soaking wet, say that it was just because there were "30 men who attacked her at once" - she would have been fine if it had been "only 20", of course. I wish to move on from this world. Please, kill me.
But let's not argue about something that should be clear from the beginning: Even if that was true for the girl who trains her, MC herself wouldn't be able to get to that level with a bit of training, so using up her time, which is a valuable resource when planning on a tight schedule like hers, in order to learn something futile, is pure piss. Because of course they would send even more people to get someone who might be guarded, as they are an i m p o r t a n t noble lady, instead of a commoner, like the trainer who also didn't manage so help herself earlier. Sofia should make sure to have someone of suitable strength at her guard all around the clock and concentrate on planning smarter instead of fighting stupidly, which she simply isn't build for. Especially when self defense and martial arts of any kind have little to nothing in common, as you would need extensive amounts of training and even more experience in the field in order to use what you have learned effectively in an unprepared way, on untrained environments, with unknown opponents.
In fact, when Sofia is then attacked for the first time, a knive is held to her throat and she steps on the assailant's foot, which makes him pull his arm to the side from being startled. I wonder where the author learned about such a move when a knife was being held to one's throat, because that thing would have slit right through her neck with that movement. Darwin Awards, I presume? And she then goes on to punch him while holding her fist in the air in such away that she would have sprained her wrist, even if the person she had hit had not been a man 2 heads taller than her. But it was indeed a man, taller, stronger, more robust - her dinky punches wouldn't do shit. What is with every god damn decision that is made in this story? What is this extended impression of a headless chicken supposed to be?
But anyways, she then decides and says outright, that she doesn't want Raymond and his hoe to know about how she knows about the two of them - she doesn't want them to know that she considers marrying prince Alexis instead. Consequently, in order to find a spy in her own home, she promptly spreads a rumor among the select few she considers possible spies... about her plans to marry prince Alexis. She doesn't even do this herself, but leaves it to her handmaid, which was, in the erased future, the only servant who stayed by them, as their house gradually fell apart. Had I written that story, that specific maid, Annie, would have been the spy, because staying behind doesn't hurt you, if you have backing anyway and so you can keep monitoring and framing them the whole time. Instead, because the one-perfect-friend-maid needs to be innocent, she singles out three of the servants of a huge ducal household - of which one is, for some reason, their chef, which makes me wonder why not any maid in the house could have had eadier access to all the information the spy had and needed, if the fucking head chef in the kitchen was considered suspicious to her - and has them hear three rumors about her marriage plans to Alexis, with three different additional stories as to how they got to know each other. So, that seems like a neat bit of writing here, right? FALSE! That's terrible! Please, don't copy that shit, if you ever wanna write something like that, I implore you!
First of all: She now announced to him something he wouldn't have dreamed of thinking up, resulting in the asshole prince becoming anxious when he certainly didn't have to be made aware like this. Sure, the idea was that he would come right away to ask her about it, so she would know who told him the rumor - but who says he would have even noted that additional info of how they supposedly met? Asking about it would have given her trap away even more obviously. And what if the spy had deemed this info unnecessary and left it out entirely? She would have given up all her cards - which she didn't want to give up right before coming up with that idiotic plan - all for nothing. She could have had them say something untrue about the family and business endeavors or something entirely different, which may or may not have been true. I know too little about the world to make an accurate example, but for the person coming up with the story, having every possibility in the world, this should have been simple.
She also takes the spy out right away with the help of her father. Another stupid mistake: She takes him out, but doesn't force him to keep in contact with the prince, in order to uphold the facade. Now he has given the prince info that Sofia denied, after him being a loyal spy for so long, and suddenly he vanished. Every normal functioning person should be able to reason from that, that the ducal family might have found a spy and if he had gotten false accounts, that might have been exactly what it was - a filter trap, in order to find a spy and whoever they are working for. So he would know to conclude the jig is up and the family of Sofia know he's been spying on them, right? Nooooooooo, apparently not. But I guess that's okay, because the Prince is stupid.
I mean, really, not just because he's obviously dumb, but because the story can't resist mentioning at every miniscule opportunity just how utterly incompetent he is; just how absolutely inferior when held against either of this two brothers. Even the one who's all about his intelligence is still better at swordplay than Raymond. To come back to my earlier point at this opportunity: the only reason MC knows so many details about all the missdeeds Raymond has done, is that he came to her cell in order to gloat about all of his plants, like a little kid trying to impress their mom. Simply a pathetic little loser who can't stand anyone better than him. Don't we all just love fights against clearly unarmed opponents?
Right, but because there wouldn't be any stakes anymore, seeing how worthless Raymond has already become, about 5 chapters into the story, we need to raise them again. God knows, this clown car of a plot needs some sort of hurdle to tumble over. For this, no one will ever let you forget: Only Raymond is the legitimate son of the current Queen. The nobles stand behind Raymond.
... but it's made clear he still wants to marry Sofia, because he needs the power of the most powerful ducal house, even in the erased future, when the only other competing prince was already dead. He only got rid of them, despite having planted false evidence of their alleged treason well beforehand, after he had already taken the throne about two years after Alexis initially died. Though, the time accounts are very convoluted, so I can't say for sure, but that's what makes the most sense going off of Sofias words.
In the current timeline, when Sofia is engaged to Alexis, Raymond has another duke adopt his hoe Samantha, in order for them to connect through a marital bond. So, another duke would have sufficed? Even though Alexis is now alive, has made a fucking lifetime achievemend by ending some war that would have originally cost him his life, AND is engaged to the most influential noble family in the kingdom? How does this even out the stakes? Does the MCs family not have any vassal families? Shouldn't they have a lot of people changing sides?
Additionally, the whole plot with the adoption coincides with the mother of the brainiac third prince almost dying. The third prince is such a genius, who randomly grasps random information from inside the MCs family (which should make you wonder if there might be more spies around, as there usually would be), regarding completely irrelevant shit like MC learning self defense. And yet he was unable to spot his mother being poisoned and even the doctor lying about it, despite his untrusting personality and supposed wisdom, paired with a great information network. The maid who poisoned her had her husband killed in front of her and her child abducted to put pressure on her. None of that showed up on his great information network. MC had to tell him about it.
Yet, without anyone being able to foretell what she would know due to her future knowledge, somehow they anticipated her talking to the maid after she was put in a jail cell and somehow, within the palace's cell, someone shoots an arrow at the maid. Despite being shot in the chest, she's alive for long enough to tell them where her child is being held at, which is lucky for her to even know, but even more lucky that she managed to say it. They then travel to "the outskirts of the city", which shouldn't actually take that fucking long and once they are there, they already hold a newspaper in their hands, talking about the adoption of the hoe into that other dukedom. They literally say that they had them go to the outskirts of town, in order for them to go through with the adoption while they are gone. You are literally telling me it took them so long to the outskirts of town, someone could finish an entire adoption process and publisize it in the newspaper? And for what? What would they have been able to do against something that has literally jack shit to do with them? And what would have happened, had this poor maid not lived long enough to even tell them where to go, with her heart split in two? Whoever thought this up as a trap for MC and her gaggle of monkey brains is an utter clown car.
And I'm sure that's still not all of the sheer dumbassness I had to witness, but my head starts to hurt, trying to piece together all the stupid in this frumpy, fumbled, flanderized fuck of a storyline.
In short: This is the webtoon equivalent of an IQ test that came back negative. It's like their collective brains caught in fire and someone filled in sand to put it out. You'd think that every single character in this mess was the result of a social experiment and the world was just unfortunate enough that someone has left their cage open.
I've skimmed through the newer comments and especially the ones right after the last chapter dropped, finding a lot of opinions on the Character Gren, some even stating that he was getting better; that he was Shin's only chance at a family; that they didn't even care he died.
Now, unlike popular beliefs, storytelling doesn't only happen when characters tell you how they think or feel. In fact, it happens all the time - every move a character makes, every step they take, every decision that is made within a story tells volumes about the characters' thoughts and values. Therefore, just telling in narration or having a character in story tell you straight away that something is this way or that means little in the broader scheme of things, if what is shown differs from it. Words mean nothing.
Take that as a base of this assessment, and let's try to understand who "Grens Heim" as a character was and what he meant to the overall story, especially regarding his supposed future life with Shin as his family.
We open up their relationship with Shin vaguely recognizing a similarity between Owen, the kid from the Garage, and some kid he had known from his own childhood, whom he hadn't thought of in a long time and had almost forgotten about. We get that scene for narrative reasons, in order for us to get a clue about Gren even existing, but it also sets in stone that he had a certain amount of affection for him, but not enough for him to look for, or even really think about him in the last decade or so. He barely remembered his face upon seeing someone who looked extremely similar.
On Gren's side, he recognized Shin on the spot, because he had kept their old picture together and would look at it the way a religious men might look at the bible. He held it and remembered a time in which he had it rough, yet it was still bearable. One of the most important differences was that back then, he had someone he was allowed to call "brother", someone who gave him strength by protecting him und caring for him.
This person is now gone, but the memory lasts, which has been the only thing that kept him going in his wretched life. Like the woman they had met as children, telling them the drugs were the only thing that gave her any happiness anymore. Keep that in mind.
So now they have met again and Gren immediately lights up, but shows signs of being uncomfortable with a guy like Jake, for example. Sure, he knows him as a dangerous crook, but the problem is that Gren, as a member of MASS, knows better than anyone that it would lead them to two different frontlines, if Shin were to collaborate with Jake from the Mercifuls. He's afraid that Shin wouldn't take his side, when Shin isn't part of any of this himself and losing it over something so childish, again, just endangered Shin again.
Just to cover that side as well: If he actually were just worried about Jake being a crook, it would even reflect worse on Gren, because he's a far more dangerous crook to be around than Jake, because Gren is not in control of himself at all and gets himself in a lot more trouble than Jake does. This isn't made completely clear, but it's very likely it's the former reason, aside from simply hating the fact that he's obviously "close" to Jake.
Alas, we come to the point where Shin realizes that Gren could be in trouble and worries, and the sequence of Gren "getting better" for Shin in rehab. Those sequences shine light on the affection they hold for each other and the nature of said affection.
When Shin left his old life behind and tried to reach a point which can be called "living", he forgot all about the "younger brother" he had found along the way. They weren't together for many years, as even their latest memories show little sign of aging when held against their earliest memories. That doesn't mean Shin didn't have any brotherly feelings toward Gren, but they weren't that deep.
Leaving him behind may not have been an easy choice to make, but he decided to make it anyway. He never looked for him even years after the fact. Remember, he has a friend that can easily look into people; Ho-Sung found out about Gren's history after they randomly met him on the street. Shin would have had ALL the reasons, yet he gave no shit about this kid he once knew. That breeds guilt. He finally met the kid again and finds out he never stopped thinking about him, while he clearly didn't think about him at all.
He now wants to make right on his promise to protect him; to be his "Hyung". Which is why this kid he barely remembered the face of is suddenly important enough for him to pick up the gun Jake left him and point it at another human being. He wants to help him now... but it's already too late.
Too late? Even though they are totally "family" and he got so much better? Well, remember that moment with the lady and her "only happiness" again, as I said I would come back to it.
While Shin took this advice as a cautionary tale, refusing to ever take any drugs harder than tobacco or alcohol, Gren fell into the same trappings as the woman herself. Holding onto his memory of a better time, which was far out of reach, he might have dreamed himself a new reality, falling deeper and deeper into his addiction. Gren is shown to be impatient, irrational and lacking any sense of tact or self control. Someone like that doesn't easily let go of an addiction, because they don't have the diligence to stay clean, demonstrated very well during the time he had to get a fix while one highly influential Gang in the city was looking to capture and ultimately kill him.
Suddenly, he can stop taking drugs, because Shin is there? Yes, because Shin is just another drug to him - a distant dream, reminding him of better times; the only thing he ever had to hold onto. Not so much a brother, than simply his symbol of something he never had: Happiness.
Let me make this clear: His obsessive behavior shows distinctively that he never got "better" - he simply switched out one addiction; one crutch for another. That also means he would likely fall off the wagon again at the drop of a hat - the moment Shin does something that goes against his view of what his imaginary brother was or should be, he might have a breakdown, just like Shin being close to Jake, his "enemy", was enough for him to snap and shoot him.
Not to mention the fact that he would have never survived another time in prison, because he would have taken his own life first. But nothing but that was on the horizon for him. Last time, in fear of going to prison, he killed a bunch of people in cold blood. Not that I say killing should never be the answer among crooks, but I'm saying he's a bit different from Jake: Again, Gren has no control over his actions at all, while Jake does. That and the fact that Jake isn't actually crook make this difference to important.
They aren't their "only chance at family" or even "real family". They are each other's IDEA of what family is. A placeholder, polished by memories seen through rose-tinted glasses.
Gren was the one who wanted to see Shin so bad, he couldn't understand that it was too dangerous because of him in the first place. He wouldn't accept a no and Shin, who felt bad for him, gave in. The collective IQ in this situation made onions cry, but let's overlook it as an act of desperation on both ends, which cost them dearly.
The thing is, I'm probably one of those people that are referenced when another comment says "people say it was good that he died" in utter horror. But think about just a bit further than simply "poor Gren", and think about the implications of how his life, with everything stated above, would have actually continued. He isn't like Shin, who had a few encounters that brought him down, yet would do well in a regular, calm lifestyle, doing a good job and living properly. He just had to be given a chance.
Gren was given a chance, but he didn't take it. He couldn't because he needed to see Shin, even when everything told him it was a terrible idea, becasue there's dangerous people looking for him. Even when Jake made it clear to him that he would get his "Hyung" in trouble as well. He didn't take drugs in rehab, but that's why he obsessed even more over Shin.
If I were to make an equation between the two: The reason Shin was able to make it out and Gren didn't is a telltale sign of their innate characteristics. As Jake mused once, if two mice were thrown in a bucket of cream, one would swim until it all becomes butter to escape. My own version would involve the proverb "If god hands you lemons, make some lemonade" - Shin would make the lemonade (and probably open up shop with it, lol), while Gren would bite it with little effort, huff the cest fumes and imagine it was lemonade, while sucking pure acid (no shade on lemons, though).
He says he loves him and I'm sure he did, but what he really loved was what he imagined him to be; the idea of him being his brother. He barely even knew the guy, beyond him liking cars. It's the same the other way around.
Those two were poison to each other and Gren was destined to either go to jail or die in some way or another. If he was a dog, he would have been put down ages ago and it would have been mercy. Don't delude yourself into thinking this character could have had a redemption - his death and the sacrifice he made were his redemption, there was nothing beyond that.
Also, for those who said they got over his death too rapidly: Don't you think it takes time to bury a corpse, likely covertly as well? Do you know how long it takes to get a gravestone ready? Those things need to be carved, they don't stand around with all the data on them, ready for pick-up. Time has definitely gone by in the shot that continues after his death. And I have no reason to believe that Shin, who's also callous due to his past, would wallow in endless sorrow over a brother hadn't seen in over a decade, barely remembered and spoke all of 50 minutes in total to. That's exactly what I meant before: he had no impact on Shin's life, barring the additional trouble he helped him get into, so there really is nothing to miss. Just a few weeks prior, he couldn't even know if he wasn't already dead.
I'm not saying he isn't sad. He finally wanted to make good on his promise to take him under his wing and be his brother, but he couldn't safe him at all and now he's gone. But for Gren, this was the only way he could ever be rid of his misery and he would have caused trouble for Shin down the road again, with his antics, so it is better for him as well.
Your assessment of the construction of Gren as character? Actually amazing, I love to find people over here thinking thoroughly what the storyline wants to portray.
I will say tho about the reaction towards Gren's death, it can be also be seen by the politics of the reader, I have read also the self righteous comments about his death, of how he didn't know any better, and we should feel emotionally compelled by his death, it's a baby talk towards addicts and mentally unstable people, they erase their autonomy from them and infantilize them as people without any other choice, is a well intended impulse for I am of the political stance that justice must be restorative and reformative, I hold value in Gren's humanity, I understand where he comes from but that doesn't mean I will excuse his actions, two things can be true at once, I can see him as human being, not a machiavellian caricature, and also say that he was not good news for Shin, and his death whilst not being something that elates me (because again, I don't think death is justice) I can for sure say that this is not the kind of story to have a jilly jolly end for him on it's books, it's gonna be crude and his death in real world it will have happened way earlier, because in the society that he lived is not one to be forgiving.
For the people that we're actually happy about it, maybe they also need to check on their biases and dehumanization of addicted impoverished bodies, after all Gren it's the result of a system that crushes you onto it's lines, he as a orphan child, impoverished and mentally traumatised was set from the very beginning for failure and was sentenced from his first jail time, because jails only repeat the cycle of violence and perpetuates it. Not even Shin with his unbreakable will to survive, can escape it, when we met him he is barely making ends meet, and is only by the hand of someone who holds power that he finally gets a semblance of stability and still that doesn't take off the fact that the moment that he scapes Jake protection he is as disenfranchised as he always has been. Gren's death was just the most probable outcome of his life.
amso remember that chapter where a random junkie in the rehab house offered him some pills so he could "get better" and therefore get out of there and meet Shin. He convinced Gren, who took them "off camera" and since that point he seemed to be getting better and his hands stopped shaking. He was lying about getting over his drug addiction.
Good call out. I completely forgot that happened. He was definitely still taking something.
I actually completely forgot that. I had it in mind, that there was rsomething like that, but I thought I had it mixed up and didn't attribute it to him (sounds dumb, but some arguing for him sounded so sure of him getting better, I thought it must have been a different story). I relied on memory for my Assessment, because it really isn't actually that hard to understand Gren as a character.
I basically refer to the parts I break down, as they are Key scenes of their relationship, like when he gets seemingly more stable, aside from the drugs. When he "understands" he loves his brother, so he must meet him. I'm sure he might have stayed clean afterwards... For a while.
He always takes the easier route. Remember the lemonade.
In the end, the assessment stays the same - I would rather say: it aligned perfectly.
I absolutely agree on the standpoint of people making their own choices, therefore they should be held accountable for them. Also, yes, that's basically the simplistic vision that shines through on most of the posts in line with the core standpoint of the upper half.
Since I am more partial to the mindset displayed in the second half, I will take a bit of time to go into this one, especially since there's something that bugs me a bit in there (you are welcome to correct me though, in case I misinterpreted your point).
The reason my assessment came to the conclusion of death as his ultimate redemption, was because the type of redemption that people (unhappy with this outcome) seem to have initially expected was simply not achievable, if any redemption was to happen at all.
Where I see all the chaos at some point be over and done with, with Shin and Jake finally fully together, there's no possibility for Gren to be there as the happy little brother. He has a lot more baggage – trouble that follows him – than Shin and Jake combined (because with Jake, there's likely no one left to tell the tale) and Gren staying with Shin simply wasn't going to be healthy for either of them.
Again, he would have sooner or later gone to jail - if not for new offenses, I'm sure he still has some open ones from the past, with transgressions as recent as the MASS incident. With his shown aversion when it comes to going to prison, he would most likely opt for suicide. And no, with his history, there is simply no way he would have a clean slate now, with all the crooks he has dealt with, because again, he's not as efficient as Jake is, who took somewhat care of not being someone everybody and their grandma could easily locate.
And would Gren even have the will to go through sobering up for his own sake? He clearly showed he didn't have it. But you can't ever truly heal, if you don't heal for yourself. Even if you heal to live a life happily with someone else in mind as well, you should never want to heal solely for that person, because if that person were to fall out of the equation... you would instantly fall off the wagon. You have to picture yourself in a better life and want that, otherwise history is going to repeat itself over and over again. One reason why Shin would set himself lines he doesn't cross – i.e. taking drugs, carrying drugs around, or killing people – is because he still wants that average life with a nine-to-five job. He still wanted that to be possible and he knew there's things he couldn't come back from.
To me, Justice has nothing to do with this discussion. I deemed his death mercy, yes. It is but an outcome and - as you correctly put it - the most probably one for this story, because it's the one that fits the best and doesn't cause loose ends. But that was basically what I said by taking the whole thing apart. For the story, the redemption he got by dying was the only redemption arc that was possible in this scenario – him living happily with Shin was an impossibility by design.
It was mercy, as his character showed there was no longer any real hope for him to pick himself up without a lot of effort - which is something he barely ever demonstrated to be willing or even capable of mustering up.
On the other hand, Justice means the epitome of fairness and impartiality. And while, yes, death is fair, as it is impartial, it is not justice, for it does not equate to anything but nothingness. It is not "fair" or "just" for an addict to die, because they also happen to be victims, even if they are purely victims of their own decisions.
But here's the thing that bugged me about your comment: You just made a sound argument about people making their own choices, but then you go on saying that society is somehow responsible for addicts making their own choices, taking away that autonomy we had just established they had. How is that different from those others, claiming that they are poor little victims that aren't at fault for their choices?
Do not make the mistake to believe that society has anything to do with it - taking money and spending it on drugs, to escape the sadness of having no money, or whatever your plight may be, is and will always be a choice that nobody can make for you – and the few people who are literally forced, compared to the amount of addicts that exist, are obviously not addressed with this.
You make the mistake of mentioning how even Shin couldn't do anything, because he was somehow oppressed by society. He did get fucked over by this one guy, managing to screw up his life, because he was an easy victim. But that is not a societal issue, it's an issue with that guy, using someone who couldn't fight back. If just having a family to fall back on would have helped, by your logic, means simply having a family is power. Then everyone who has a family, shouldn't be powerless, but that is also not true.
I already mentioned the difference between Shin and Gren was their drive; their innate ability to sink or float in the bucket of cream. You say that Shin just scraped by at the beginning – in his situation and with his background, he could have decided to fall into the depths of drugs as well; he could have plainly robbed people. While, yes, he kind of did that anyway, he still didn't knock anyone to the ground and simply took everything they had, he just scammed them a bit.
And no, I'm not condoning that, I think he deserved all the trouble he got into for it as well; I'm simply saying he could have done so many worse things and that is a choice as well.
You could, of course, argue that he just isn't the person to kill people. But that would come back to the issue of making choices and the core of one's character. Gren was certainly not shy in killing people. But their backgrounds are the same, so it must be that they are simply different. They were both children in the same place, the same starting point, yet Shin took the one thing he was passionate about and made it his life's goal; he worked hard to prove himself, but suffered a setback. Did he let that setback control him into completely falling out of society? No.
Why, by your logic, did he not end up the same way Gren did? To be honest, that question is the core question that rips apart any notion of "Gren was just not as privileged as Shin, because he didn't have a Jake", which sounds condescending, I'm sure, but it's essentially what you have claimed to be true.
Jake then gave him an opportunity, indeed, after seeing in him the mouse that would not drown; that he would always do whatever he could to come out on top.
That is actually a theme in this story. I know, people love themes these days – forgetting they were originally supposed to be subtle like this, not "in your face, bitch" as they often are now.
Jake grants him a simple opportunity – to the boss of the garage, Jake is nothing but a wealthy customer; a shady businessman, for all they care. All he does for Jake is overlook his shady past, it's Shin who has to prove himself. And so he did. He was working hard, earning his place at the Lump Spark, which is also why he could get good credentials upon quitting the place, in order to lay low.
You say he goes back to how it was after "Jake's protection" (which wasn't there to begin with, regarding his job – they gave him a chance despite his past, because Jake introduced him and they are intrigued by the grumpy guy bringing someone over, but that was essentially all it amounted to). I didn't see that happening. He's laying low, because of the things that happened, which has nothing to do with the matter at hand and can therefore be ignored. He lives and eats regularly; he found a job that is grateful to have him around and all of that, because he earned the credentials he got from the Lump Spark. None of this was due to Jake being "protective" or "powerful". It was all Shin and his will to learn and work diligently in any situation. By saying he could have never done anything more than scraping by, you are devaluing hard work.
In fact, had he kept looking, after years passed, he might have found someone open minded, who would give him a chance, achieving exactly the same outcome on his own. Gren obviously didn't have that drive, otherwise, he would have left and done something as well. Hiding behind some elusive society, driving you into a corner where you are simply forced to spend your money on drugs to escape reality, is unrealistic.
And no, this isn't just something that applies to the fiction "Shutline", but it is the same in reality. There are always people who make it, coming from the same backgrounds as others who didn't. So why are there people who make it? Did they just have a fairy god mother?
But I wouldn't want to overdo it. As someone just reminded me here: Right, he actually already took drugs when in Rehab, which aligns perfectly with what I concluded was his core character trait of always giving up; always taking the route with the least amount of effort. But that just aligns with what I said, so I don't feel the need to correct the Headpost. He wouldn't have gotten "better", he would have turned into a burden. With his addiction, with his baggage and with his obsession with Shin – had he stopped taking drugs, all of these would still be in effect, because he would have just switched addictions.
I rest my case.
I will for sure come back to this, thank you for you reply, I see perfectly were your confusions lie, as my reply was grazing over concepts for brevity, this is not my first language so it doesn't come to easy for me to actually explain to you quickly what I meant, as my knowledge in this is an whole another language, but when I get some time from uni, I will try my best to stand my point so you can comprehend were I come from, have a nice day.
Just a little spoiler we may not agree when the time comes, but I'm glad to have a conversation with you.
ok psychology major pop off
why are you so pressed over someone wanting to share their thoughts
your english comprehension is low. i was complimenting them. popping off is good. i was saying theyre knowlegable based on their psych analysis.
I don't remember why, but I'd like to say first that I have read this before and put it on hold. I did read quite a few chapters, but I can barely recall anything except for the feeling of frustration and irritation that was likely not supposed to be a feature.
Since there were a lot of chapters and I guess a lot "more" than when I last came here, I thought I'd give this a second chance, because the squirrel was cute. Anyway, I want to keep reading, but in order to do that, I have to went my frustrations a bit.
Now I'm maybe one quarter or barely one third into chapter 12 and I'm back at the feeling of frustration.
Let's start with one of the premises of the protagonist: She wants to get out of the place she was in, going back to her remaining family - brother and father - and stay there as a "guest" until she has come of age. Her reasoning is, for some reason, that they would let her stay and give her an opportunity to grow without being sold off to the imperial family, which was what her aunt clearly tried to do.
Now, there's a few problems with this tid bit of continuity in the long run, or rather with this bit of her motivation, because why would she assume her aunt would have tried to sell her, while her father, an oh-so-mighty duke, wasn't aware? The aunt made it seem to her as if her father had abandoned her. Why would she expect to be treated better in a house that had more reason to look down on her, if what she perceived as reality was anywhere near the truth? Had her father not, in actuality, loved her more than anything, prompting him to ship her over to the capital for safe keeping, she would have fucked herself twice over.
She says her world was small, which would mean she's bad at interacting with people, but she also read an aweful lot. How is someone simultaneously old enough to be seen as an adult (at least in mind) and "well-read", yet not smart enough to understand the simplest of things? Like, when she equates the word "cute" with people gaining something valuable, as if she had not encountered the word "cute" many times more in her stories. It's as if the author used the "I regressed into my younger self" trope, in order to bring in some cool future knowledge and some extra years of shitty treatment, without giving a shit on how someone of that background would act and think.
She wants to become a merchant, on the "woe is me" premise of how her aunt told her she had no shame, therefore she must "have it all" to become a merchant, seeing as some random book about merchantry says that merchants should know no shame. But guess what a merchant should first and foremost be? Yes, smart. Quite smart, in fact.
But even if they were to go on, trying to portray her as smart through some tell, the show has already spilled the beans on her being as dense as a fudgy cake.
That kind of pulls apart the story, because in actaulity, she should have come there with conviction and bet everything on her one card: That the father didn't know what happened.
Because if he did and hadn't done anything, that means he didn't care. And if she expects he wouldn't care even after knowing about it, she would have never traveled there, especially after hitting the second prince of the Empire with enough force to excommunicate one of his teeth from the unity of its denture. She could have gone anywhere, but she gave her freedom up, by going where people knew her and would be able to detain her, just to give that chance a go, so she could have only gambled on him giving at least 1/8 of a shit about her well being, because if she hadn't her going to the north would have made no sense at all.
From that setup, I don't understand why her first action isn't to tell her father that she doesn't want to go back there, because she's being treated terribly and all she wants is to live a quiet life as a merchant. Since she wants to form a contractual partnership with the duke in the first place, and is naive enough to think that would totally work, I don't get why she wouldn't state her grievances with her current place of suffering. Of course, she can't disclose transgressions that have yet to happen, like her being killed by the second prince in the future, but if she expects him to care even a tiny bit, just enough for him to try and uphold appearances, he should take her side immediately, hearing how her aunt has abused her position as a caretaker for 8 years now.
I read in a comment that she told them about the mistreatment in Chapter 35, and I seriously can't remember if I ever read that far, but I do know I read far enough for the aunt to get in some level of trouble because of the things she did and even at that point, it was never really adressed how she was treated in the capital. That's a bit of the frustration and irritation I remember feeling, because in the chapters I read, it was still only because the father overreacted on minor points that the aunt got into trouble and it was still kind of unclear if Beati / Beaty was supposed to go back to the capital after all or not, when it should be obvious that she can't go back there, since she's being abused. Her behavior can't even be chalked up to insecurity or childish cluelessness, because she's supposed to be older in mind and her actions are outright thoughtless. Like, her brain seems simply empty. Especially when the plot brings in the "misunderstandings", for her to not understand how people view her as "cute" or thinking they would offer entire floors of their mansion to mere "guests".
For a character set up to be someone totally capable of taking care of themselves and a go getting, hard working merchant in the making, she's portrayed from the beginning as an incapable, incompetent fool, who would be nothing without the literal future knowledge (as in, not even gained experience or smarts, but simply "I know this thing is the solution for this thing, because someone found out" type of future knowlegde), because she herself isn't even intelligent enough to be a merchant in the first place.
Hold the phone, i was just trying find spoilers but your comment really caught my eye literally
Lmao same
yeah i almost dropped it cuz she pmo
I think you are reading way too much into this. But I think you missed a big factor of how she could not see how people could see her as “cute,” or give her things. She was abuse her aunt took all of her things and used her to gain wealth.The prince who she thought was her friend and loved her used her and murdered her. So it is logical based on her life experience that if someone gave her something that she might think it might be some type of bribe or fake to take advantage of her. So her thoughts are how could she appeal to the Duke who she didn’t know cared about her but is realated to her and could house her temporarily and she decided to appeal to him by using her future knowledge.
But if you want a smart merchant/ business savvy FL
read I’ll Be the Matriarch in This Life
The Villainess Reverses the Hourglass
I’ll Save this Damn Family
First Night with the Duke
As human beings, people always never get away with the word 'expectation'. She knew going to Duke is bad idea but only Duke can help her run away from Royal Family cuz she's weak shapeshifter. This is why she tried to make proposals to let her stay until adulthood and she will leave afterwards.
The word you need to know is 'Trust'. She do not trust her dad enough to say the reason why she hate the capital. Like who knows, maybe her own dad instructed her aunt to abuse her IN HER MIND.
And yes, to become a merchant is to be a smart person. However, can you become smart person in an environment of where you got abused and manipulated CONSTANTLY by her aunt and the fake kinda fiance? Her books that she read may don't have the words 'cute'.
Does this manhwa plots are so around the BUSH that you doesn't understand every actions they imply? Maybe that the reason author always made MC's brother called MC as 'BUSHy tail'.
I did not forget about any of that at all, tho? I took all of it into account and concluded that she is simply dumb as a rock. Because no, she hadn't everything taken away from her, she was shown to read whatever she pleased in her flashbacks. Compain to the author if you wish to understand it differently. The story showed her reading and make points about her life by virtue of what she had been reading. So no, point invalid.
I'm not "reading too much" into it, I simply read the story and concluded my point from what I was being shown.
You are the one reading too much into it, in fact. You are reading into the scene that she was scarred and thought that whatever is cute must be something of value, nobody would simply like her. But that's not what she says, she literally just says "But how can I be cute? They mustn't know what cute means. I only know people saying cute when they get their hands on something shiny and valuable." That means, she doesn't know what cute means. She's not distrustful, believing they are nice to her, because they want something from her. She's like: "Oh, those poor souls must have gotten the meaning wrong." - which makes her seem uneducated, childish, dumb, whatever you want to call it, and ill-fitting for an avid reader and aspiring merchant.
The appeal is one thing, but it would mean for her to actually get a chance to speak to him. Which, if she doesn't expect him to give the humblest shit about her, won't be the case, because, as you might remember, she's the child who just insulted and injured a member of the royal family. What reason would he have to not immideately throw her to them, if he gave no shit about her?
Btw all of the stories you mentioned, except for the last one (which I have never seen, so I simply don't know about it), are indeed well-written and rank among my favorite stories of this kind. So yeah, they are good, but the story we are currently commenting on isn't like those.
First: What does your first sentence even mean? Care to elaborate on that?
She had to expect something from him after running away, as I mention in my post as well, because if she didn't believe he even gave 1/8 of a shit about him, she could have run away. She can literally turn into a fully functional squirrel, not really different from any other Squirrel. As a Squirrel, she knows how to hide and to procure food. She knows how to hitch-hike and could have traveled anywhere; the Duke and the Royal Family would have been none-the-wiser. She could have sought for help among the common people, found a Merchant to take her in, as someone who can read is of a high value.
So anyway, she did not run away, in fact, she ran toward the only person who knew exactly who she was, which shouldn't be something that's true for a lot of people. Had she not any "expectations", she would have had to assume he would immediately throw her out, maybe even disown her completely, to account for her transgression against the Prince. She literally gave him every reason to not take her in, but came in order to beg for him to take her in any way. He would have had no reason to even listen to her for a second if he had anything to do with what her aunt had said or if what her aunt hat told her about her father were true in the slightest.
Knowing that he did care about her, enough to simply pass off the violence against royalty without any discussion or even question needed, she should have told him right away instead of making stupid claims about how much she would be worth to him.
And the fact that the word might have not been included is quite weak as a counter argument as well.
Smart people aren't smart because they are taught. They are smart because they are smart enough to teach themselves things that others couldn't. Street smarts is what you could call it. You can't be born knowing how to read though, so she must have had teachers who taught her either way. And yet she's out here, dumb as a rock.
And I'm not saying that couldn't be the case. In fact, that is my entire point, but thanks for solidifying that she is, in fact, the personification of an IQ-Test that came back negative.
First, you already elaborate yourself. So, I assumed I don't need to?
This 'Had she not any "expectations", she would have had to assume he...'
My first sentence just want to answer this : 'Now, there's a few problems with this tid bit of continuity in the long run, or rather with this bit of her motivation, because why would she assume her aunt would have tried to sell her, while her father, an oh-so-mighty duke, wasn't aware? The aunt made it seem to her as if her father had abandoned her. Why would she expect to be treated better in a house that had more reason to look down on her, if what she perceived as reality was anywhere near the truth?'
As you said, she expected the Duke would at least have ome humane behaviour to take her in even without any family affection.
Yes, she can turn into squirrel but remember, what happened in her original timeline? Famine, winter disaster and war. How can she asked for help from common people and merchant? They might as well sell her to noble people.
Care to elaborate 'which shouldn't be something that's true for a lot of people', I don't understand what you refer to as not true?
And about this 'Knowing that he did care about her....', how does the word 'care' = 'trust'? As someone who read a ton of manhwas, you wouldn't believe how many times trashy characters be like 'I cared for you but I don't trust you enough so I gonna confined you in my basement'.
To reply your last paragraph, the teacher that taught her to read could be snake kid and as you know, the snake kid is constantly manipulated her almost everyday. I wouldn't surprised if she became dumb thanks to him.
That makes no sense. It literally doesn't. You said something about expections falling through, while my paragraph is explaining why she indeed HAD to have expectations and not telling him, despite those expectations, makes no sense.
You keep saying that she had to have those expecations, as I stated, but then that means she would have told him. It doesn't make sense for him to stand up for her against the R O Y A L F A M I L Y, but not give a shit about her being abused.
No matter how much of a famine or what war is going on. You seem to know little to nothing about the world. Merchants - real merchants, not small shop owners - are the ones profiting the MOST in all of these mentioned situations. In a crisis, nobody is as rich as a merchant who brings food where there's none, weapons where they are needed and other supplies you can't currently procure inland. They also get to travel accross borders easily and have the ability to take in a child, as well as (usually) the appreciation for talent.
"which isn't true for a lot of people" - as I stated before, the father knows she exists, but that fact "isn't true" for most people, in other words: Except for a very small amount of people, nobody even knows she exists, yet she runs toward the biggest hive of those same people who DO know, which is dumb as fuck.
Telling him she was abused has, in this case, nothing to do with her "trusting" him. She already went through life with a horrible end, all she wants now is to live quietly, so she should be invested in doing all that she can in order to avoid that fate - all of her actions should be informed by that wish, as the story tries to claim as well.
If her father cares even a little about her, he would not want her to be abused, simple as that. All she wants is to be allowed to stay safe. If he couldn't assure her safety but cares even a little, he would make sure to either keep her safe at his place or find a place he supervises more thoroughly, instead of just sending her back to the person who abused her. Where the hell does that comparison even come from? It has no bearing on the plot, because she WANTS to stay. If he was any threat of "locking her up", she would want to get away from him, not stay with all her might.
First of all, I don't think it was him who had her taught, the palace would have just given her some lessons on behavior and all of that, but she could already read. Her aunt would find her reading long before Reeter became part of her life.
First of all, I did read this from beginning to latest chapters.
Expectation falling through? I don't understand this. Sound like you misunderstood yourself. As I said, :
My first sentence just want to answer this : 'Now, there's a few problems with this tid bit of continuity in the long run, or rather with this bit of her motivation, because why would she assume her aunt would have tried to sell her, while her father, an oh-so-mighty duke, wasn't aware? The aunt made it seem to her as if her father had abandoned her. Why would she expect to be treated better in a house that had more reason to look down on her, if what she perceived as reality was anywhere near the truth?' especially 'why would she expect....'
'It doesn't make sense for him to stand up for her against the R O Y A L F A M I L Y, but not give a shit about her being abused...' : Based on the plots, it does make sense.
Even IF the duke doesn't give sht about her being abused and AWARE that she got abused nd even engaged with the snake kid(royal kid), I bet he would happily accept MC's proposal as long his soldiers alive in war. (This is based on his characteristic in manhwa WITHOUT 'care for MC' ofc)
What world? Real world or this manhwa's world? If she really go to merchant family route, she still be found by Royal Family since the merchant don't have power as much as the duke which in the end, the world gonna be doomed as 1st timeline.
All I could say her reason behind going to Duke is becuz she knew she's weak and she knew that the Duke gonna be in big trouble due to 'Initial Retreat' event. That's her trump proposal. Duke would at least cared for his soldiers.
It does have to do with 'trust'. All I could say both cared for each other but doesn't trust each other to say what they want to say becuz they afraid of their respond. Read the manhwa if you're this curious. Like father, Like daughter I would say!
She is investing in doing all that but as you know, it's backfired as per usual in every manhwa MC would have.
'If he couldn't assure her safety but cares even a little, he would make sure to either keep her safe at his place or find a place he supervises more thoroughly, instead of just sending her back to the person who abused her. Where the hell does that comparison even come from? It has no bearing on the plot, because she WANTS to stay....' : or you could continue to read this manhwa and you will understand. Im so bad at explaining spoiler.
For reading part, now I remembered as for why she knew how to read but it's not from the servants, the aunt and the snake kid.
Now there are many things I could and would be saying about your points, but frankly, I lack the time and there's also no need. I will try to fit everything I have to say in this one post to round this up.
First of all: You seem to believe I never read any further than what I had when I wrote my comment. Obviously I did, and there is literally no excuse for any of the mind boggling decisions made at the beginning. Also note that everything and anything that happens later would not factor into the decisions made at the beginning anyway. What DOES matter is solely what the characters know at that moment, which informed their actions – or should be, if anything.
Since none of the things she knows describes why she makes those decisions, going to the north i.e. is either the most dumb conclusion she could have drawn, or it was in response with the firm believe that her father cares for her enough to want to be a shield against the royal family for her. She has no reason to believe he would want to do so, if she thought he was behind the plot of marrying her off in the first place – and if she already knew his relationship with the royal family was spotty at best through "future knowledge", she doesn't mention knowing it as she starts going to the north, but even so, it would mean she thinks he would risk being in an even shittier relationship with them over a daughter he doesn't give a fuck about. That would be pure, unadulterated imbecility on her part.
That, in addition to her overall behavior, was my initial point. I concluded that she was a nitwit, not fit to be a merchant, which is important, as it is her stated goal and the premise of what she tries to work toward. In other words, we would be following a FL with an ill-advised goal. It is also frustrating, because the stupidity jumps you like a face-hugger, which is frustrating – if you can get a single brain cell to work between your ears, you KNOW those "misunderstandings" are pure bullshit that could easily be cleared up.
The entire story, with all that's happening up to and around chapter 30, is inaugurated by a level of writing that can only be described as what Roger Ebert once called an "Idiot Plot" – which is defined by a plot that is "kept in motion solely by virtue of the fact that everybody involved is an idiot". That was obvious early on and nothing that happens afterwards can redeem this; it sets the fundament of her character and the story itself, yet the author didn't want to put the legwork in for a more organic approach to bring everyone to the place they wanted them in. Instead, it's been slammed together and held in place by duct tape and chewing gum.
From the father not properly checking in on his daughter even once, despite his theoretical intelligence and political enemies, to the fact that MC commits an act that could get her literally executed – as she aTTaCkeD a Royal Prince, mind you – and thinks the one person who doesn't give a shit about her would or could protect her: Nothing makes sense at all. You have to already read into it and give them leeway, just to give the basic setting some working fundament, and yet it's still hilariously stupid. I initially tried not to be so hard on it, but the whole premise is literal dog shit; its disdain for cause and effect is so bad, it almost feels like a modern Disney product.
Add to that, the nonsense "misunderstandings" cause needless bloat. The plot of 30 chapters could have been condensed into 8 at most, the rest is just padding. And it all leads up to a story that wasn't terrible, but somehow so forgettable, I barely remember any of the things that happened later on and would have to restart again if I wanted to continue on the newest chapters. I won't.
Also, these 5 points of yours that boggled my mind:
1. "As human beings, people always never get away with the word 'expectation'." – What do you mean with "never get away with" if not "expectations falling through"? My own words – which you have quoted – have nothing to do with this and do not explain any of yours.
2. "I bet he would happily accept MC's proposal as long his soldiers alive in war" - What do you mean "I bet"? The only time soldiers matter in the beginning is solved due to MC and he still rejects her, because he thinks she's safer in the capital – where her aunt abuses her, which he doesn't know. Because in 8 fucking years, he gave not enough of a shit to properly check on his child, who's oh-so-important to him… for reasons only Detective Conan would know.
3. "What world?" - Every world, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Because that's simply how it is. Who else is going to profit; who else is going to supply? Is your argument that this story is so completely broken in all aspects, including basic world-building (which seemed okay to me), that it makes more sense for her not to take the route of an apprentice, when her choices are "death" or "success with a chance of death" either way?
4. "It does have to do with 'trust'. All I could say both cared for each other but doesn't trust each other to say what they want to say becuz they afraid of their respond. Read the manhwa if you're this curious. Like father, Like daughter I would say!" - We really ventured this far from any logical through lines, haven't we? Not only does none of this make any sense in the discussion I initially started, but it also demands I'm curious about something that I have read already and couldn't care any less about.
5. It makes no difference who taught her how to read. The Prince teaching her was your explanation, which couldn't be true. I don't care either way. Someone would have taught her, no matter who it was. If she was truly smart, she could have evolved over her 18 years of life. She didn't.
First, I never said you never read. It's just you questioned something that already laid on the plots.
'What DOES matter is solely what the characters know at that moment, which informed their actions – or should be, if anything.
Since none of the things she knows describes why she makes those decisions, going to the north' : And she know about past events and she decided use it as a gamble to stay in the duke. When I said past events, it's 1st timeline events. In chapter 3, she said something to answer this paragraph of yours.
Are you sure you really read this? This is about a squirrel girl died and go back to past, means she have 1st timeline memories. Or you just want to talk about 1st timeline only? Im so confused.
I concluded that she was a nitwit, not fit to be a merchant, which is important : Gonna ignore this whole ass paragraph. We're all know that logic of manhwa and logic of reality is different.
1. It's does. All I could say is difference of comprehensive skill. So, I say no more in this.
2. That's becuz he cared about her. This is why I said 'Even **IF**' and (This is based on his characteristic in manhwa WITHOUT 'care for MC' ofc)’ This bracket still in the '**IF**'. He would accept and let her stay **IF** he really doesn't give a sht about her being abused cuz that's his **characteristic**. Do I need to use this '**' to emphasize? If you're still don't understand, just read story and if you don't, I say no more in this matter.
3. Seeing you're even pulling 'Roger' guy, Im now understand the way you and I read stories is different. So, I say no more in this matter.
4. As I stated, It's totally does if you READ the story. You considered it as not becuz you don't and not plan to read it ever. And I don't plan to say more in this matter too.
5. It's only revealed why in later chapters. So.....Ok.
Woohoo! Shortest reply I ever done for this argument! And Yes, let's stop here. "Dont spoon-fed those lazy ass people" said by Master Oogway. All I could say, you should read a manhwa fully before spout something cuz the answers that you're looking for are so obvious VISUALLY in MANHWA. I say my piece and I won't reply anything of this matter further.
To sum up ALL of your arguments, from back to front:
You constantly bring up future chapters and pretend you know it all because you have, but after constantly bringing up that I should read them, you now say you never said I didn't read them, in response to me saying that you seem to think I did not. More importantly... at the end of this very post, so say, again, I somehow didn't read it. Are you that thick?
You say something incomprehensible on the topic of "expectations" - incomprehensible, because I was trying to draw a concluding meaning from it, but you say that was wrong and now you pretend that your mind is so much more delighted than mine, so I'm too dull to comprehend it. In other words, you just said something you can't explain yourself anymore and you don't want to admit it.
You constantly say something about knowledge in future chapters, things that "explain". Now I tell you there isn't anything, suddenly you go back to what she knows about the future from before she regressed. None of that explains anything, because in that future, she had never even MET her father, let alone talked to him, she only ever got one letter in which he gave her a name and her question of wanting to stay with him came back ripped up. Was that truly him? Likely not, but who knows. She sure doesn't and especially not at the beginning, because that was her set up before going up north.
Your whole argument became invalid, the moment you wrote the words "Webtoon logic" and "I didn't even read", because you are arguing against something you haven't read on an argument about something that doesn't have to make sense in your eyes anyway. That explains a lot about your attitude of just throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks, but then don't argue with anyone. Your points are gibberish. You don't even care if it makes sense - which is fine, for you, but don't pin that on anyone else who expects the thing they are reading to make a modicum of sense. For people like those and for my own sanity, I pointed out my frustration, not for someone like you, who's going to explain everything away by "Webtoon-Magic".
For example: Your weird response to my comment about merchants and how they obviously rule in a war. You pretend we "read differently" - and I might be inclined to agree here - but what you are saying is that you just don't give a shit. Again, why argue if you don't care about any consitency anyway? In that case, you should know you are wrong, you are simply content with it. If a story takes something that has logical sense, in a world which is still very close to ours, we will expect things to be the way we know. We will expect the grass is green - if it isn't, the story will have to point it out, unless we can see it and are told it is grass we are seeing, so we will know when someone references grass as purple. Merchants rule in war, if not, explain how they don't. They don't do that.
Reading something in the future might clear up the father's motives for YOU, maybe even for HER at some point, but they didn't matter back when she first set out to go. She NEEDS him to care, otherwise he won't help her, but she somehow thinks that telling she's being abused isn't going to make him care for her. Who cares if she is "worth" something, if he has to take on the Royal Family? That logic is completely screwed. We KNOW he does it because he cares a lot about her, but she fucking doesn't.
In 5. It's again, this "Well, it's all revealed in future chapters" after establishing I read them you are totally "not saying I never read them" - and no, it's not in later chapters. It doesn't have anything to do with the beginning and if it had, we would have had to be shown from the outset, in order for us to understand her reasoning in this. She shows all of it and there's nothing later on that RetCons her decision-making either.
I'm literally talking to a wall here. Yes, let's just stop. But I did have to point out all the stupid in your last post. Damn, there's a lot for it being so short in comparison.
Wasn't it, like, an open Secret? I guess it's obvious he was somehow brainwashed in the future events, sure, but he really was oblivious as to who would be to blame? He is so dense with... stupid. His naivety just went nuclear.
It's been a while since I last fell for a Promo bait. Damn, I didn't check the chapter count at all.
Did we ever get to know how she died?
It kind of felt like Esther was her actual child. But if thought that was impossible at first, because then the father would have known. But with that necklace showing up at the place Esther came from, with that place being a den of bandits, could it be she was abducted? Maybe an attack while she was out in a carriage, when no one knew she was pregnant. If she was meant to be sold, they could habe realized and thought it would be better to wait for the child and get twice the money. Let's say I wouldn't be surprised if she was actually their blood related child. And who knows? Maybe the mother is from a split part of the worlds most horrific turbo cunt's family. Or maybe the god just fucked them over on their contract, but I kind of don't believe it's that easy.
Also: "F"s in the chat for Sebastian. My man has it hard.
she had a sister who happened to have a fleeting romance with lavenia (? i forgot how to spell her name, but anyway, the villainess) dad, the duke or whatever he is
so basically esther and lavenia lavina idk are half sisters so this is why she isnt a saintess, because esther was born in the same family that is known for producing saints and shit bla bla, so lets say SHE KINDA >KINDA< took almost all of the powers, shes the strongest and etc etc and lavina lavenia IDK how to spell her name is STILL a saintess, but not the strongest
Irene died of illness and Esther's mom was her littlr sis ( not her twin sister), who diedafter the duke of Brions ( Ravienne dad) tried to kill her cause she became too persistent, ( Ravienne was already born), and he was afraid of the possibility of the powers going to the bb if it was a girl si he made mercenaries killed Catherine but she hold enought to give birtj to Esther who wss took by Lucifer and his group then sold to the Temple...n
Without uploading 27 and 28? WTF, man?
I had 2 delete ch 27 & 28 cuz pages were missing and it was a shit show. But I'm reuploading them or u can get them from the website I used.
there were chapter 27 & 28 earlier but they were so botched that i think someone removed it
Yeah... half the pages i loaded went missing after upload? Idk wtf happened
Is that what they are all talking about? I didn't get to see it, now I'm kinda curious about how bad it was, though.
Now let me be clear first: I don't dislike the story itself, nor the characters (per se), I also like the idea that they have a subplot of the Duke and the Duchess becoming closer, which is a plotline fit to spawn a separate Webtoon on its own, ordinarily.
But I'm now at chapter 23, about halfway into the story as far as it's available as of now, and with every passing chapter, the bitter aftertaste of the premise gets stronger, which is why I have to air my grievances here.
You see, the problem is that I don't hate any of the people of the Sheridan Duchy, unless they are meant to be hated, like that Bessie bitch (and don't forget about her yet, I'm not done with that yet, she's just not my main gripe here), which seemed to have a character design that screamed "I'M A VILLAIN" in the same way that awful Batwoman trailer yodeled "I'M A WOMAN". But I digress: I don't know if the current king is meant to be unlikeable at the beginning, as he even dishes out a dig toward our Duke, as he speaks about him being surrounded by "mongrels", while being in favor of killing a small child. While, yes, it is his "fault" that she has to die, because he could have spared her. Yet even the Duke himself didn't actually spare the MC, he simply couldn't break the law by killing a minor. The king said it was fine, and we all know: People shown to kill children are bad. Killing adults doesn't really matter most of the time, but children and animals means you are evil. Got it.
Like, I don't know if he improves as a character to be an ally of sorts, but for now, he's evil, right? But then you have to think again. While yes, the MC thanks the Duke for giving her a longer life expectancy - when she originally thought she wouldn't grow older than 12, as her brother had always said he was going to kill her, as soon as he was the one in power - one should never forget that those are the naive words of a child that is yet blind to the world.
10 years sound like a long time and she has had barely anything to live for until now. She didn't know anything but cruelty, was hardly old enough to even understand the reality of death and the worth of what it meant to be alive. At the same time, as soon as she was old enough to have a grasp of these intangible concepts, she was told she would die soon, so she never had any goals in life, no freedom to even find a hobby aside from talking to her rocks and playing in the dirt, and didn't even know what she can or can't do. And despite all of that, she still didn't want to die even now!
I know, the king never said it was "for her sake" that he wanted the Duke to just kill her, but you have to understand: you can't blame him for that, because the whole story wants you to forget that gnawing reality, because if you don't, the Duke suddenly becomes a wretched, cold, inhumane monster. For that, even Quentin, the one guy who openly states that he loves children and wants the best for MC, therefore she should be killed, does not, in fact, argue how cruel he is being to her, but instead goes on about how the Duke wouldn't be able to raise a child with his own hands and kill it a few years later with those same hands.
No one ever acknowledges the fact, that MC is now a child who knows nothing and killing her now would be, ultimately, mercy. In ten years, she will be older, no longer as naive, but still a child at the core. The difference is that by then she will have learned about the beauty of the world and life which she hadn't known prior to her life at the Sheridan Duchy; her thoughts and actions would then be informed by years of new experiences, filled with love and happiness, creating inevitable hopes and dreams for a future that would never come. Why teach her etiquette, when once she would be old enough to need it, she could only use it to kneel down gracefully, when the Duke cuts off her head? Why let her experience having friends and playing around, making the circle of people who would grief for her bigger by the second, when there was no one in this world who even knew her before that? Her entire world had ceased to exist when her blood related family was murdered. But now?
Even if the author would have portrayed her as that kid that wouldn't make a fuss - even though she made a bit of a fuss even when she had nothing in life and knew nothing in life, so it's unlikely she wouldn't beg for her life later - to make it easier for the Duke or to thank him for giving him this grace period of ten years, it wouldn't change the fact that it would be the cruelest thing you can do to someone, especially a child.
There's a reason why children with incurable and ultimately fatal illnesses are exempt from their duty of attending school. Or why there are foundations to have children experience their last wish in the real world.
Because when you are sick, there are things you cannot easily do, as you are withering away. But MC isn't sick. If she wants to climb a mountain, nothing can stop her (aside from the Duke and her Prisoner Status, of which the latter is mostly for show if we are honest). She is fully healthy and knows it. The world is open to her, but as soon as she would be old enough to just set foot in this world, she will lose her head.
There's a saying that the older you get, the more you cling onto life and that isn't only true for old people. The more things you have experienced, the more things you wish to experience. Once she experiences some form of love and gets to be a teenager, she will wish for romantic love, maybe a family of her own. All the things she knows she will never be old enough to have and it's not because of some inevitable circumstances that are beyond anyone's means, but because of a decision that was made by someone deliberately. Even illnesses are usually cursed and seen as unfair, but what will she think this is? She never did anything to anyone, she was simply unfortunate enough to be born as the daughter of a useless King.
I get it – I know, and you know, and I know that you know she won't actually die at the end, because this is her story. The author won't just cut off her head at the end. But here's the thing: The characters in this mess aren't supposed to be aware of that. They don't know they are part of a trope-y RoFan story. To their knowledge, Clarisse is going to die on the day of her 18th birthday and that's a fact.
It would have been way better for the Duke's integrity, had he been the one to want to kill her and the king, who knew about the law, had been the one to say she shall be kept around until she's of age. It wouldn't have mattered, since they didn't seem to want him to leave a good first impression anyway.
But knowing this is the backdrop of everything we see, it makes all the people in-the-know about her fate seem more cruel than anything. Acting cold toward her just barely keeping her alive would be more than enough and it wouldn't make her want to keep living, if she has to be kept alive only to be killed in the end anyway. Showing a child love, just to kill her off, that's a lot more inhumane.
On the matter of her being kept barely alive, I also have to mention how odd it felt that it seems she had no noticeable health issues. Playing in the dirt all day and being hated, but apparently well fed and not otherwise mistreated – that doesn't seem to be in character at all, for the people who had raised her to this age.
And about that Bessie bitch: First off, why is nobody in this house communicating with each other? Like, the knight who just heard something outrageous didn't think of going to the Duke right away to inform him? Why? He didn't seem to hold a grudge against his lord, in fact, he seemed rather loyal. Why WOULDN'T he warn the Duke of a potential fraud, a spy at worst, who slept in a room adjacent to him? Instead he just takes her words for granted, that it's because of the Duke's suspicions toward the Duchess, that they have such a distant relationship. And when he sees them interact with each other in a way that barely seemed close, he throws away everything he had seen for three fucking years and forgot all about anything he had heard in the dungeon, about the Duchess not being who they thought she was. It makes no sense to turn around and just forget all about it, without even discussing it and even if he discussed it in a chapter after the part I have already read, it would mean he simply delayed talking about this to the Duke for an unnecessary long time. Why have the bitch say that shit in the first place, basically stabbing her real employer in the back, just to do fuck all with it?
What I want to say with all of this, especially with the two additional points: Of course, I did mention everything I was annoyed with - I was at it anyway – but they kind of go hand in hand, in a weird way. It's like the author had an idea and they were doing well with portraying the characters themselves, but beyond that, nothing was particularly well thought out. She sees the family she was with for her whole life die brutally in front of her, but it barely shows any repercussions on her psyche. Her brother had his throat cut next to her, she would have bathed in his blood. But nope, nothing but a few tears, because she thought she had to die as well. Which, btw, would have psychological repercussions on its own. Yet in the end, she doesn't even suffer from nightmares or any other sign of trauma.
Another example, which isn't a plot hole in and of itself, but speaks to this issue as well: MC is very thankful, because it's her shortsighted way of being happy about having more time (when obviously, that would introduce hell to her, as soon as the day of death would actually approach) and goes around saying she's a prisoner with no problem. But when she speaks to Noah Sineth, even asks him to be her friend, she doesn't even mention that they wouldn't have to be friends for very long anyway. Like, she explains that she's a prisoner, but I don't get the feeling that he understands what it means for her to be a prisoner of war and why she was even taken as a prisoner. He doesn't tell her that she shouldn't speak about her ability because he thinks it's dangerous to her per se, but that she wouldn't have a peaceful life, likely recalling all the tragedy he must have heard about his own mother's life, as she had the same ability and MC would be the only one with that ability now. But that is also why it would likely serve as leverage to save her life – it's at least a power valuable enough to attempt using it that way. But instead, they use that halfhearted way of communicating in a situation in which they were already talking about things kids wouldn't normally talk about, in order for him to give her the shittiest advice imaginable, considering her desperate need for some value to her own life.
Again, I'm well aware she's likely not going to die and end the story that way. But that's me – or you, fellow reader, by extension. Why do the people IN THIS story seem to know that, when it shouldn't be that way? They treat the fact that this girl is going to die so fucking half-assedly, it makes me mad. On that note, I want to add that I am someone who also says you shouldn't read and complain when you have a problem with a premise or something else that is obvious, because it doesn't make sense to read and complain then. But the problem isn't the premise itself, even if the title of the thread might suggest otherwise, I know - it's as I said: The way it is treated is simply shit. But with that irresponsible treatment of the matter at hand, the whole premise turns into a table of shit irreversibly.
sorry, this is so long I'm not reading it -- but I really respect and commend you for writing such a lengthy comment lol
Yk what, if Im procrastinating my english hw. I might as well not procrastinate this HERE WE GO.
OKAY IM BACK, yeah all fair points overall I do think this is just flawed writing that can be seen in many stories of this kind where MC just dont suffer any kind of trauma cause they MC thats not important to the story. If I had any story to recommened where the MC still struggled with PTSD if what they went through in the past I would.
The other point you made, I do believe that the king isnt a bad guy he is rather pushing the Duke, I do want it to be the King just wanting to push the Duke out of his "I will follow you forever" mentality rather than HAHAHAH fight me bitc if you wanna try nonsense. Cause the way they are writing the king is just...not evil enough? Like he states in the recent chapter in a way he is like a puppeted king, he does everything his mother wants and he chills, maybe he is tired of it and wants the Duke to make a move. I really hope they dont write that just to forget about it later. Thats why he wants to see the Duke raise the girl like a chiken and hesitate when having to serve her in a platter.
You wrote 2k words and that is f'in impressive
Took me a good 5 min to read that and I think I forgot some stuff you said already so forgive me if I say something you already brought up lol. You're right logically, but at the same time, you're kinda wrong about certain things too.
The duke is the one that wanted to let her live longer. Is that cruel to her? Yes, but remember the duke is a human himself. He probably felt guilty killing a child that didn't do anything wrong and therefore brought up the laws as an excuse.
He probably never realized he'd get attached and assumed that since he'd have shown her as much kindness as he can (by being nice and treating her well), he'd have made up for killing her family, and he'd have the (selfish) satisfaction of doing everything in his power to make things up to her.
It's cruel to HER, yes, but it doesn't make the duke a bad person. He was simply being selfish for his own sake so he doesn't have nightmares of killing off an innocent child for the rest of his life, if that makes sense? He just didn't think it through.
As for not telling Noah about her death, that's actually already addressed in the manhwa itself if you got that far yet (don't want to spoil).
Next, about her psychological state on her family being killed. I didn't go back and read the first chapter and most stories have a similar premise so I may mix some stuff up and this may not be fully accurate, but remember her mental state was already bad before her family was killed. If anything, the duke SAVED her from abuse by killing her family.
Sure seeing someone wave around a sword and your family becoming corpses around you is traumatizing normally, but what if you're already so accustomed to abuse that you assume everyone will be scary and treat you badly?
Atp, no matter what they do to you, you think it's normal and if they show you a bit of kindness, they're the best person in the world. It's weird that she doesn't have nightmares of her family tormenting her after that past ofc, but I wouldn't call it strange that she's not afraid or traumatized by the duke.
And afaik, SHE'S the one asking to go to school and learn things, the duke didn't force her to do anything so it's not like she's being forced to learn etiquette
Since I didn't read on any further yet, I can't make a point about the current King and his true motives, but I never ruled out that he would become someone who "allies" with the Protagonist, that's why I even mentioned it. He didn't come off as that evil from the get go, he just displayed the "obligatory" villain traits superficially. Thus, I questioned if he was the bad guy at all. Again, I cannot judge it though. And I would love to say that would be great, but to be honest, the author just "forgetting" about it, would literally tie into the things I have listed, which all shared that exact phenomenon. So I wouldn't get my hopes up.
When it comes to trauma: Once you get used to a situation, your mind adjusts to protect itself. So a lot of times, I agree in not showing heaps of trauma, because it would seem forced, since their traumatizing moment wasn't something more or less swift, but something they grew into, in most of the stories I have read. But this one is very special, because there are very, very few stories in which the protagonist is actually just a little kid.
They are usually transmigrators, reincarnations or regressors, and therefore a lot older than they look. In this case though, she's literally just a child and had something horrible happen to her, but nah, why bother with it, right?
I do see where you are coming from, but there's little in the story that carries this theorie. Theorizing about logical outcomes from given settings is one thing, but theorizing things that HAVE happened, when neither show nor tell support it, doesn't quite work.
But what do I mean? If you read the chapter in which the Duke "spares" Clarisse, you see none of the things you mention. He doesn't seem to have any thought of sparing her per se, because he will kill her either way, and it doesn't seem as if he actually had that type of empathy toward her that you claim he did.
Yet if we say you are completely correct about his motives, with him trying to do this in order to "make up" for the family he killed, that would actually make him even more cruel. The notion of him getting attached isn't the problem, someone else would likely kill her instead if she has to die by royal decree; again, the whole story seems to try to make you forget that it's cruel to her, way more than it is to him. But if he actually did all of that because he couldn't (or wouldn't) think that far, that just makes him cruel by virtue of being thoughtless on top of being selfish.
You see, unlike common believes, most people in this world aren't cruel because they love seeing people suffer. Most cruel people just don't see what they are doing to the people that are suffering because of them, because they don't spare the thought. Saying he just didn't think of something that would take a single brain cell to conclude, doesn't make him less of a shitty human being.
Especially since your throughline is that he doesn't want to kill an innocent child. But an 18-year-old is no less a child, and if he doesn't raise her as some sort of assassin or thief, she will likely be no less innocent at that age either.
As I mentioned in my original post, they didn't give it any thought to show her having wounds or anything, it didn't even seem as if she was especially haggard or anything. She wasn't constantly beaten or witnessed constant brutality. Again, this is also thanks to the author not thinking things through, most likely, but that's what we ended up with nonetheless.
I have mentioned this in my earlier answer to @*Clover*, but it's one thing if you are used to extreme circumstances and have to adjust and also, if the protagonist is transmigrated into the body, regressed or reincarnated, so they are older in mind. But here, she's really just a kid and nothing at all suggests that she frequently witnessed blood baths first hand. Even being being beaten - if that even happened to a great extent - or, as a child, being told "I will kill you", is something entirely different from seeing the only people you knew as family slaughtered right in front of you and having a bloodied sword directed at you. Ignoring that as if nothing happened simply doesn't fly. At that moment, he wasn't her friend and she didn't thank him for killing her family either. She simply didn't react at all, which seemed completely weird. At no point did she think the Duke was her friend, when he came and killed her family. She was one of them, so he was her enemy as much as he was their enemy.
And yes, I'm not saying he's forcing her to do anything. I'm saying he's the adult and he shouldn't let her. Because, again, the more experiences you have made, the more experiences you will want to make. Of course she WANTS to make all of these experiences; she WANTS to learn about the world and the beauty of life, but that is exactly what's going to ruin her the most at the end.
I actually went back and reread the earlier chapters just to check, and the Duke's actions are definitely ambiguous at least.
He says cold things and claims that he'll never sympathize with her, but his actions, including treating her well, and removing her shackles amd helping her up instead of just imprisoning her and waiting until she's 18 to kill her (like why would you leave someone to roam free if they're really a threat as he claims she is)
While it could just be the author not having braincells and me reading too much into a shallow attempt at making us think the duke is actually a good person, if someone irl did or said what he did, this is exactly the conclusion I'd draw about them - that they're trying to rationalize something they did on emotion.
And I'm not saying the duke is empathizing with her either. He's clearly not. He doesn't give a shit about her own feelings on the matter. He selfishly chose to spare her, and I think it's bc he felt bad killing an innocent person. Note how he doesn't actually agree with the emperor telling him that he has to kill her on her 18th bday.
And I'm not saying she's suddenly any less innocent as an adult or he thinks that she suddenly will be a threat when she's 18 when she's not now.
He probably will feel bad having to execute ANY innocent person. If they dragged in innocent adult servants and tried to get him to execute them, if there was a law that might pardon them, I'm pretty sure he'd recite those laws too.
It's like what the duke feels is more like a selfish desire to not spill the blood of innocent people that aren't soldiers. Kinda like a moral code that he doesn't want to break? He won't actually want to kill her when she's an adult either. there just won't be a law to protect her then so he'll begrudgingly have to do it bc he can't refuse the order anymore wo going against his oath.
So what I think is happening is that he's selfishly trying to make it up to her rn so he doesn't feel as guilty killing her later "bc I at least let her live the happiest life possible and protected her as long as I could".
It's extremely cruel towards her bc making her happy means she wants to live more, but that's probably his (very selfish and not empathetic) logic.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like the duke at all. In fact, I rather dislike him. I genuinely want the story to end with him trying to kill her on orders, then her escaping bc he wavered and couldn't pull through and her friends want her to live so they saved her from him, and then him regretting not breaking his oath for her sooner forever bc that mf made her live her whole childhood making her think she would eventually die at his hands to the point that she couldn't even fathom having hope for the future. Bro should def suffer for that
But again. The duke himself isn't cruel. It's true that thoughtlessness and selfish "good intentions" can cause more misery than intentional cruelty, but again, it doesn't make the duke a bad person. It just makes him stupid and incompetent.
Like I said, it's cruel to her, but he's not actually cruel himself. You can hate him for being dumb or not having enough empathy to realize that he's doing something wrong, but you can't hate his intentions, if that makes sense?
Also, while you're right that there isn't enough info about her past to draw a conclusion about her treatment other than "She was abused", we do know is that her brother wanted her to die and didn't even treat her like a human being.
From that, we can infer that she was already expecting to be killed off sooner or later so to her, the duke wouldn't be any scarier than the average person she met, since to her, they all want her dead anyways.
Also about having someone else kill her, what difference does it make? He's still the one who consented to it after all.
And ironically, I'd think that being a kid would make it so she's less traumatized by people dying. Idk if this is TMI but... I've seen someone drown to death in front of me while they were being rescued as a 7-year-old and I wasn't even fazed. But if that happened now, I'd at least feel horrible even if it's not outright trauma.
Kids don't really comprehend death very easily, take it from me lol.
So when the duke killed her brother instead of her and then immediately said that he couldn't kill her + freed her from being a prisoner, to her, he'd have become her savior after that first moment of fear that she was going to be executed. Her brother being killed also wouldn't really have hit home as cold blooded murder to a real kid.
So I think she has much worse traumas than a fleeting moment of fear that she'd be executed by the person that "saved her" (he didn't actually but from her perspective, he did) or him murdering her family.
The duke has also never explicitly said that he will kill her. It was the emperor or his aide telling him to kill her to which he simply doesn't refuse. So it's not like he himself has ever shown hostility towards her.
As for letting her have what she wants (education and the like), I mean.... Would you like it better if he refused and restricted her freedom and forced her to do only what he allows or locked her in prison to kill her when she's 18?
It seems we are talking at cross purposes here, so I will start with this: I didn't actually mean he doesn't treat her nicely with some intent of just not wanting to treat her wrongly, I meant the moment he "spared" her, before he took her in. All of that felt rather whimsical, just treating her well, because she's now in his care and he doesn't comprehend treating a child badly. But as he spares her, all of that intent you are mentioning isn't there, he just states that it's against the law to kill her right then and there.
The fact that he "doesn't agree" makes no difference, because he's inherently someone who has been loyal to him until now, obviously, and wouldn't simply stop over a child. He himself doesn't understand Quentin's notion of him getting attached to Clarisse. When the Emperor decrees she's going to die, obviously she has to die, unless you kill or otherwise overthrow him, and that is certainly a bit of a stretch in that moment, don't you think?
And again, even for an adult, "sparing" people, just to ultimately kill them later, is cruel and thoughtless. Literally "Hey, I'm not killing you, but ya still on death row. Too bad, eh?"
If he feels bad or not, killing any type of innocent person, is not something we can confirm from him coldly spilling blood and then saying "But I can't break the law that nobody before broke". I'm not saying you are wrong about this point, just that there isn't enough conclusive evidence to tell.
He doesn't let her live "the happiest life possible", it's obvious he just has her live a moderate life, as I stated above, whimsically wanting her to be healthy while under his surveillance. Like Quentin having to tell him she needs to get fresh air in order to be healthy. There's simply none of the things you see in him in this story. He gives her thinks he sees as nothing special, while he's a noble and only knows noble children - compared to those, she's a commoner even with the things she got from him. That's hardly "the happiest life".
I know what you are saying, but that's not correct either. You say it doesn't make him cruel, but stupid instead. Do you remember the point I made, about how most cruel people just don't think about what they are doing to the people that suffer because of them? So, are you telling the people suffering: "They aren't cruel people, they are just stupid"?
In the end, being stupid doesn't exempt you from the things you end up being because of your stupidity. But I do agree wholeheartedly that he's thoughtless and thus an idiot, as that is what I argued in the first place. And yet his actions - informed by his whimsical, thoughtless attitude - remain cruel and inhumane nonetheless.
I took all of that into account. In my original post, I mention that her brother told her he would kill her on two seperate points I was making (if I remember correctly). Once when I said right now she already didn't expect to live past the age of 12 and once more, when I mention how a child being beaten and told they were going to die soon is entirely different from having people slaughtered in front of you.
And while I don't want to speak on your trauma, or lack thereof, I have to say that seeing someone drown is not a spectacle in and of itself. To the person who drowns, it's one of the most agonizing deaths imaginable, but watching it can be almost tranquil. I also mentioned how she was just old enough to start understanding the concept of death.
While you're a child, your mind and body undergo constant change. That stops once you are around 20, where your brain reaches its peak and starts going moldy again. During that time, especially the earlier part of it, you change with every year and just from 7 to eight, your brain leaps miles. Adding to that is the fact that she was at least verbally confronted with the notion of death and would have a better understanding of it than you likely did at the age of seven. I also explain that, even though I certainly didn't have to, because outside of logic, we can tell she knows what it means by how stressed she gets. SHE doesn't want to die. There's no way you can argue that "death" didn't sink in with her.
Still, in conclusion: MC is more mature, by age and circumstances, in addition to witnessing deaths way more graphic than the one in your example, which is why they are incomparable.
Again, he didn't free her. She's still a prisoner and he constantly tells her she is. He also came in with the soldiers and likely gave most - if not all - of the orders to rally the royal family together and shackle them. She is only thankful when he doesn't kill her, because of childish shortsightedness, which is fine, because it's normal - that's why I blame him. But overall, she would have had a horrible experience, on top of having a damocles sword above her head, because she was there when they said she would have to die and the story makes it clear that she is fully aware of it. If he himself holds the sword, though it would likey be his duty, or if someone else kills her instead, doesn't change the fact that he would have to approve of it and hand her over to die. He doesn't need to show hostility toward her in order to be her enemy in that moment, she simply chose not to see him as such. But she didn't feel like she was being saved, when her brother was cut down and she seems to understand perfectly well that she's a prisoner of war as well.
As for your last point: Indeed, that is what I even said in my initial post. It would have been ultimately more merciful to either kill her right away or put her in a prison where she didn't gain hopes and dreams for a future that doesn't happen. I'm not saying he has to beat her on the regular or starve her, but don't give her what she wants, let her learn and do all of that, if you are aware that she's going to die. None of the story, especially at the beginning when all of those choices were made, suggest that he would overthrow the trone. But that is what he would have to do, if, at any given moment, he thought of saving her, because the Kind made it clear that she had to die and he will want him to show some proof when it's done.
I can only repeat myself here: "I'm well aware she's likely not going to die and end the story that way. But that's me – or you, fellow reader, by extension. Why do the people IN THIS story seem to know that, when it shouldn't be that way? They treat the fact that this girl is going to die so fucking half-assedly, it makes me mad."
I also just randomly thought of something and checked what I wrote in my initial post:
"But nope, nothing but a few tears, because she thought she had to die as well. Which, btw, would have psychological repercussions on its own."
You say she wouldn't feel traumatized, for some reason, because she wasn't old enough to understand. And I know I did mention in my last post that there's clear evidence she understands and in that quote from my initial post, I mention that. The moment her brother dies and only she is left, she is TERRIFIED. Every situation that gets you terrified is sufficient to cause you to have nightmares, ESPECIALLY if it's a fleeting situation that still effects you very deeply. If she was used to it enough to be just fine, she would also not have shown how much sheer terror she was in at the notion of dying - same goes for her not understanding the situation, because why would she react like that if she didn't know what it meant?
That scene alone shows us that she's far from empty inside, and not at all used to being told to die in a truly menacing way - she's absolutely afraid of dying and the moment affects her deeply. She also knows this is what's going to happen inevitably in a few years' time, but we are supposed she won't care in ten years or feel pressured by her status as a literal death row inmate.
I usually forget to mention details here and tehre, but this was such a clear cut situation, I organically brought in everything I noted in my mind during reading, in order to sort and consolidate my opinion. So, yeah, point still stands and I've already made it clear originally.
Ugh it deleted my reply and I'm not retyping.
I agree with some of what you say and not the rest let's just agree to disagree bc I don't have the patience to type all that again lmao
Fair enough, it happened to me before. I pre type in Word, because it sucks to lose a lot of text and I never re wrote it either.
At this point, there isn't much that can be done but agree to disagree. To me, the story makes itself pretty clear, whether that's involuntary or not, but if you see it differently, nothing more can be said.
I still enjoy discussing things like this in stories, which is why I write comments in the first place, because I'm interested in how they are viewed and simply saying things are this way or that doesn't make it true, if there's no logical throughline for it that could be followed and pinned down by certain facts or evidence.
In short, I enjoy having had this type of conversation, because it broadens the mind and begs to question, re-evaluate, or consolidate opinions.
Good idea, I'll probably start doing that for longer comments too lol. Agreed about the comments and discussions though, it's not about who's right, and there's multiple ways to look at a story no matter how obviously it's spelled out in the plot.
What I'm saying is not completely baseless, bc there have been a lot of scenes where the dialogue can be interpreted in multiple ways.
For instance, in the first chapter, the duke pauses to consider something when she begs for her life and THEN kills her brother.
It's very possible that he made his decision to protect her in that moment after seeing how the brother treats her and realizing that she's not evil rather than it being a pre-made decision based on the laws of the empire (esp bc why else would he even drag her there in chains with his soldiers just to release her immediately after? Could have just told her to follow him and that she'll be safe from the get go instead of leaving it for after her bro started blabbing.
This is backed by how in chapter 3(?), he thinks that she was not considered to be part of the royal family "based on how she was treated", implying he didn't know until before he saw the way she was treated by her brother.
As for her trauma, you can see in the flashbacks how abusive her brother and the queen were to her, with the prince hitting her for simply being in the same space, also implied to constantly tell her that she would be killed the moment he ascends to the throne, and the queen saying "a member of the royal family doesn't need to be one to discipline her", implying that she would make someone else punish the princess instead. At the very least, you can tell that she wasn't treated like a human and she was used to regular death threats already.
She's basically already prepared for death and while you say she was terrified until it was revealed she wouldn't be dying, I think her reaction is actually very mild for someone on the brink of death. She doesn't even try to escape or struggle despite her feet not being bound.
She was clearly either sane enough to realize that running away wouldn't help (not very scared) or she was abused so much that she didn't even realize escape was a possibility. In either case, what the duke did to her wasn't scary enough to cause major trauma when he wasn't even hostile towards her in any way unlike her brother was to her.
That's just a few shorter examples and I had a lot more that I typed before but I'm still upset that it was all deleted and don't want to put in all that effort again.
But I think we can both agree that Mr. Duke guy is a selfish thoughtless asshole that wants everything to be done his way but can't take responsibility for anything be does from how he was so callous that he just pushes her onto his aide (after ignoring said aide's opinion on how to deal w her even) at first until he starts getting attached instead of properly treating her like his ward from the get go xD
He's a very unlikable character and I doubt I'll ever forgive him for being a horrible guardian at the start. It's not ok that he's being a good dad now that he likes her, bc he's a horrible human being that can't consider what's best for someone and treat them with the respect they're due right from the start.
On that note, yes, I'd call people that cause problems for others unintentionally "stupid" or "thoughtless" and not "cruel".
It's like manslaughter vs murder really. The result is the same but they're classified separately for a reason.
I would call a murderer cruel but not someone that committed manslaughter. Ofc it doesn't excuse it and it doesn't mean they shouldn't take responsibility, or that they shouldn't be punished for it, but there's an inherent difference in the two.
Carelessness and thoughtlessness can be just as bad as intentional harm, and the victims have every right to hate them just as much even if it's an accident, bc they DID cause irreparable harm, but that doesn't make them cruel, if that makes sense.
It's kinda hard to explain but I hope that makes sense lol
Besides the point of this discussion. Personally Im enjoying these essay reads, didnt expect to do this this weekend but Im loving it.
Right, I considered that hilarious scene with the brother being killed first for a second too, initially, but chucked it, because: The Royal Family of Grezekaiah had fallen from grace in a way you would rarely see, with the enemy basically getting their victory handed to them, because the soldiers were begging for food instead of fighting. The royals had no foot to stand on and pretending to be high and mighty, even thinking of getting granted one last wish in that position, was, ultimately, too arrogant. Bro, even if Rachel Zegler had happened to sit next to him, I would have killed him first, just because he pissed me off that much. Like, where do you get off asking for anything, dude? xD
I meant that as an actual point, not just a simple joke, because it makes sense to kill him for his proud attitude, because he deserved the punishment for how poorly him and his family reigned over their country. They were not even worthy of being called nobles, let alone royals. So it's hard to read much more into it.
It's also the King who mentions that she was clearly not treated as a royal, as far as I remember, and it was mentioned because of the dirty clothes she wore. She was hit, yes - with an open handed slap. Again, no mentions of any scars or health issues in particular, aside from her taking vitamins, which would seem like a reasonable thing to give a child growing up in the north, since they were making a point of looking after her health. I already acknowledged the fact that she would have been beaten now and then, but slapping someone around and telling them to die, again, is something entirely different from experiencing gruesome murder. Which is also why she's visibly terrified.
It's impossible to argue that she isn't completely frozen in fear from what she looks like. If this was my story, we already know there's a few things I would have changed, but this wouldn't be one of them. That's also the reason I singled this moment out as the best to kill her, instead of dragging it out.
I will try explaining it this way: When writing a story, the best you can do to write certain characters somewhat organically is to "get in character"; to "feel their emotions" as best as you can.
Now put yourself into this position: You sit there, with your arms shackled, just a small child against a room full of adult men with swords and armor. Your brother, who's much taller and physically stronger than you, who was a source of your fear, had been cut down easily; your parents, whom you were afraid of, who never acknowledged and seemed much bigger and more powerful than you could ever be, untouchable, were killed without much hassle; everyone around you wants to see you dead as well and you are nothing. You have never left this place, which is now in shambles and drowning in blood. You have nowhere left to run, and nobody to turn to. Where would you go? Why would you even bother? That said, you still don't actually want to die.
You would simply feel the dread of the situation, making you unable to move, while your natural instincts of survival make you beg for your life, because even people who WANT to die would feel their survival instincts kicking in as they take their own life - it's simply human. If anything, that she didn't run would have made it clear that there was nothing to run toward, though I can't tell for sure if the author realized that's what this action claimed to be true.
Running or crawling is something people who think they have someone left to protect them would do, or maybe someone who feels they still have something to do, so they desperately try to move, even if it's futile. In her case, there's nothing like that. That doesn't mean she's not utterly horrified, or that she's totally prepared to die here. The only thing to highten the appearance of someone in terror even more would have been to show her piss on the floor, which was likely not done so she could keep some dignity, not to tell you she's not that afraid. In fact, it's made clear that she was afraid, otherwise she wouldn't have been so happy to hear she gets a few extra years (again, it's shortsighted - common sense tells you this is not a good idea).
And, again, he didn't have to show hostility toward her in particular to be part of the enemy. He's still the one who brought the knights and called the shots, as the King only meddled at the end. So he's the embodiment of that moment of fear, even if the author, again, wants you to forget or not even realize that, because it would get in the way of him being her savior and dad later on. That's why this is terrible writing.
The author wants all this to happen, but didn't go the extra mile, which is why the child shows no fear in front of the man who just cut down her family and revealed the intent of keeping her alive, just so he can kill her when she's old enough. Everyone in this room is her enemy, she shouldn't take kindly to any of them, even though most of the people in the room didn't even have the chance to show her hostility, as the Duke had her shackled and dragged in front of the enemy King.
Also, she's an actual child, not an adult in a child's body. A child would always yearn for their parents - "A mother is god in the eyes of a child". Even with all the fear she likely had, she would have had a part in her that wanted to be acknowledged; that wanted to be loved and cared for. Especially since she's not shown to be callous enough to just wave the only family she ever knew off, since she has no points of comparison. That she doesn't give a shit about them at all, even as they treated her badly, is simply unrealistic. From an adult's perspective, especially someone who is uninvolved, that might be the case, but this isn't an uninvolved adult. It's a very much involved child, so you have to treat it that way. In another story with a child, which has endured more hands-on abuse than shown here, especially since the child is 4 years older. That child only realizes they are never going to love her and therefore cuts ties with her family in terms of emotion, after being thrown into a fire pit by them. That was from "The Monster Duchess and Contract Princess" - btw a really great story. Clarisse is simply written badly, so the author doesn't have to go through the trouble of establishing how she got over her fear for the dude who basically symbolizes death to her.
We do agree on how we view him, but I think the root cause is a different one. xD
Because, you see, I don't judge him at all for his earlier behavior. The reason for that is that I still don't believe he ever meant for her to be anything but a prisoner waiting for her death, which would have been dealt by him, obviously. Since she's a prisoner and he's her warden, so why would he give a shit? It was never meant for him to be a foster parent of any kind, she's just someone who's sentenced to death with temporary delay.
In fact, my critique was that he was still having everyone act too nicely, giving her too much freedom. Again, nobody has any reason to treat her like a normal person, as she's a prisoner of war, coming from a hostile royal family, who's also going to die as soon as legally possible. Nobody has any reason to doubt that's what's going to happen, because the King wants it to happen and the Duke doesn't originally act as if he wants to overthrow him. That would have to be his intent, if he wanted to save her, which he never hinted on wanting in the beginning.
We can't judge later on, where he inevitably starts liking her (I didn't read that far, but c'mon, it's obvious, she's the MC after all), because that's not what he set out to do, it simply happened to end up that way. Just clearly from the beginning, he simply wanted to keep a law intact. If we take your version, he didn't want to kill a child, but thought it's fine to kill her as soon as she's 18, which is basically still a child - that's also why I don't really believe that's it, but that he really just thoughtlessly insisted on that law, because he can't have thought that far, and then just stopped at the fact that he would still need to kill her. Especially since the King kept reminding him and he doesn't seem to care at all. He just cares about the fact that she doesn't die before her 18th birthday - because law.
I mean, I know what you are trying to say and I partially agree. There's people who aren't cruel and do things that are cruel to others for different reasons. But this guy literally said: "Yeah, I'll kill her when she's 18, cause then she's legal." (I'm paraphrasing. xD)
It could be that he's just putting up a front, but he knows he would have to kill her anyway, so why drag it out? I say it's thoughtless behavior, but it's thoughtless in a weirdly deliberate way. There's a word for it, I swear (or maybe I'm imagining it), but I don't remember it right now. You know what I mean? Like, "reckless endangerment". You kind of know the risk, at least you are warned, but you're sure it won't apply to you, so you drink and drive anyway.
He knows he has to kill her, so he takes her with him, giving no shit about what she thinks about it or how she feels when he makes that decision. Quentin's warning, though not the one I would have expected, but a warning no less, is being ignored. He decides her life and death on a whim, and however he sees fit.
I'm btw not saying the Duke was intended to be this way. I didn't say I believe you aren't wrong with your point just to appease you before, or anything of the kind. Seeing as how he's portrayed afterward, I'm actually very sure you are correct in how you read the story, because that would fit the narrative way better, so it was likely meant to be understood that way. But when writing a story, you can't just "tell" me things are true, or expect me to just come to a conclusion based on well-known tropes and "reader's logic" (like, when we all know she's not gonna die - that's reader's logic), you have to "show" me those things as well and let the story speak for itself. All the show tells me that he's cruel, because he doesn't care what happens to others and that is, in fact, what true cruelty is. Other forms of it - the deliberate ones - are quite rare in reality. On the other hand, this "I want that to happen, therefore it happens" no matter what the outcome for other people is, is far more common. That is why I earlier said that most cruel people aren't cruel on purpose - I'd rephrase and say "they aren't cruel for the sake of being cruel". There's people that want others to suffer, or maybe just one person in general, yes - so they do things that would hurt them on purpose, to gleefully roll in their despair.
But those who simply do things, not particularly because they are laughing at other's pain like Dr. Evil, but simply because they don't give a shit about whether others suffer or not, THAT is the nature of most people who are cruel. Which is why the Duke "shown" in this story is cruel, because he simply does what he thinks is right by him, not paying any heed to the wellbeing of others involved (not just the kid, but everyone who comes to like her, as mentioned before - he deliberately widens her horizon and the circle of people who care about her). He doesn't spare a thought, because he simply doesn't care, because it's none of his concern - until he likes her, and suddenly it becomes his concern.
As much as I call him thoughtless, he's not actually shown to be particularly stupid either. I'd love to say "If his brain exploded, would it even mess up his hair?", but that wouldn't be true to what is shown. He's thoughtless, even though he's not normally this thoughtless, which can only mean he really doesn't care, as long as she doesn't die before her 18th birthday, so the law, which nobody broke before, would remain unbroken. And that is, as a premise, quite bleak... and pretty shitty.
lol
Slight misunderstanding there. My version isn't that he thinks it's suddenly ok to kill an innocent person when they're 18. It's that he no longer has a legal ground to keep her alive after 18 so he "has" to kill her and he's resigned to it.
I think if he had a choice (like say, the emperor pardoned her right from the start), he'd make the choice to let her go off to another country when she's an adult and live her life, even before he got attached.
He's shown to not care about her yes, but he's also shown to have moral standards, and killing innocent people wo isn't something he seems to want to do.
Again, it's quite selfish. Sometimes killing someone is actually merciful compared to letting them survive after what they've been through, but again, and I think you'd agree with this statement, he just wants everything to go his way and he doesn't give a shit how someone else actually FEELS after what he's done.
He doesn't want to give up his own morals so he'd force her to live even if she begged him to kill her, probably.
I don't think he wants to actually kill her at all right from the start (or at least after he found out she's innocent), but he still made the decision to kill her anyways when she's an adult out of loyalty and obligation for the emperor bc he no longer has the ability to defy the order when she turns 18 and she's both classified as a threat to his kingdom and not protected by law.
So what I mean is: "He just doesn't want to kill someone innocent for as long as he has the justification to save them instead". Again, it's incredibly cruel towards her to explicitly tell her that her life has a deadline and be forced to live under threat of death counting down her days on someone's whim (while she's happy bc she's just a child that doesn't understand that this is bad), but why does he care, right? He's just doing what's "ethically right" to him, the consequences she faces and her feelings be damned.
Basically I'm saying he's a coward that doesn't want to take responsibility for making the decision to kill someone when there's still grounds to keep them alive at this point. So is she dies after she's an adult, it won't be "on him", bc he couldn't save her wo going against his oath and loyalty. So it won't be his fault anymore if he allows her to die.
You say you're not judging him for his earlier behavior and your logic for why you don't care is solid, but I'm judging him for his behavior bc he's a horrible person before she's the center of his world. He doesn't even treat her like a human being, but rather more like a project.
Like I understand she's a prisoner and he shouldn't fawn over the enemy princess from the get go, but that doesn't mean what he did to her is justified. It's not even just to her.
He ignores the opinions of everyone around him and forces them to do whatever he wants and shirks his own responsibilities and pushes them onto the people around him.
HE forced Clarisse to live. And yet he's making his aide take responsibility for everything about her at first and doesn't give a shit about her. You'd think that after he basically forced the emperor to spare her, he'd at least take responsibility for her, but nahhh, let's just make my ~~slave~~ subordinate do it instead
It just irks me that AFTER he starts liking her, the author expects us to start liking him bc he's suddenly acting nice when he's such a pos that doesn't have any sense of responsibility or consideration for the people around him unless he likes them....
He's not "stupid" in terms of intelligence, I agree, but he is very dumb when it comes to street smarts or understanding people. He basically jumps to a conclusion instantly and sticks to it regardless of what others say. He doesn't take their perspectives into account AT ALL. He's so arrogantly convinced that he's always right that unless he likes them enough to make an effort so they don't hate him, he won't even listen to someone. Asshole
Haha thanks lol, I'd love to hear your opinion too
Oh forgot something: You're right that I would have killed the prince first anyways, but the point is that there's a moment of clear hesitation and consideration where the duke looks at Clarisse instead of judging the prince for his arrogance.
He's clearly thinking something related to the princess, which is why I brought it up.
If the duke had responded sarcastically to the prince before killing him or done it wo looking at the princess, I'd agree that it's bc he wanted to put him in his place.
But he didn't. Whatever the prince said clearly made the duke think something about the princess despite how arrogant or enraging his words were. And the only thing that the duke could logically havebeen thinking about Clarisse at that moment is something related to the prince's words.
Like for example, "He called her a mongrel. He clearly doesn't care about her."
And then Clarisse begs for mercy and you see after a slight pause, he kills the prince and sheathes his sword.
Compounded with the fact that he even brought her in and chained her in the first place, and didn't release her IN FRONT of the prince to humiliate him further, like, "Yeah, she's not going to live a second longer than you, she's going to live a whole 10 years longer than you, bitch," you can see that he very likely made the decision to save her after killing the prince in that pause before he said that he can't kill her.
He knew the law the whole time. if I was him and the prince pissed him off enough to make me want to get him back for his arrogance, I definitely would free Clarisse right in front of him if I was planning to save her anyways lol.
So what that implies to me is that him saving her was a decision made instantaneously and he brought up the law as an excuse, bc he'd have executed her regardless of the law before he decided to save her.
Random comment incoming: I'm currently totally busy, but as soon as I find back, I will return for our conversation. I have not died yet. I just remembered I had to work on some of my own stories, which have to be revised, and that's kind of a cross between figurative pain and... actual fucking pain. Anyway, I'll be back, I kind of liked our back-and-forth quite a bit.