Aviinà's Topics (242)

respect who translate it!! it's just i find this tooooooooooo cute and really good!!

purple hair

$5 on him hooking up with Yubin's brother In a future story arc. Thid series already had two romances, why not break for 3?

oohh really where is it then? :o

That brother needs to fucking kill himself

yeah i kinda hate him!

i wanna spit tea in his brother's face (￣∇￣")

yes indeed

TY OMFG HOTT KISSING BED SCENES YOOOOOOO!!! Didn't go all the way yet tho! Gah!

Fuck. So hotttttttt

Good. I don't like yaoi lol

Then why are you here if you don't like BL? Don't read it then.

I don't like yaoi because it fetishizes gay men. I'm fine with shounen ai. And my username kind of explains why I'm here.

I'm bad at explaining things, so I recommend Googling it. Other people explain it better. I definitely know I'm not alone on this. A lot of the LGBT+ community agrees.

I mean type in "yaoi is" on a clean history google search and some of the top recommendations are "problematic", "homophobic" and "offensive".

Honestly, there's no point in explaining. I know of only one fujoshi who was convinced into realizing that it's harmful and stopped. They're never going to see it no matter how much you explain. Some people just don't get it. I don't even bother trying.

I could not agree more. It fetishizes gay men in a twisted heteronormative way, especially with seme and uke roles. People still can't accept two MEN in a relationship. One has to be the "wifey" and the other the "husbando".

But apparently, acknowledging the homophobia in yaoi is flame-worthy offense 'round these parts. Just let it roll off your shoulders. Half the people here are under 14. And the ones who aren't should be ashamed that they don't get it with the amount of access to knowledge and understanding we have nowadays.

i don t know - i mean i love some yaois with rape but in real life i m against rape - i m not "fetishizing" gays or anything - well actually i am gay hehehe anyway... i think you can like things in yaoi that you might not like or agree in real life - also i personally have no problem with a couple like in dark heaven or haru wo daite ita which are switching rolls (sex) everyonce in a while - or the "bisexuall" yuri (yarichin bitch bu) etc - i think yaois are all fantasy - some story more real some less but in the end always just mangas nothing more -
i totally cheer for sangwoo and bum (killing stalking) and hope they don t go to jail and end up together .... in real i would cheer for a sick psycho like sangwoo going straight to jail and bum getting all the help that he needs ...etcetc but i m totally against it that yaois are homophobe - that s pure bullshit - and yes you might won t believe it but there are gay couples where one is more "seme" and the other more "uke" without being "girly" - just there are gays who like more being the receiving end and there are gays who doesn t like it that much - where s the fucking problem with that?

and seriously i read so many yaois - some really fetishize others don t - like a hentai isn t "real" and about real couples and storys yaois aren t either - they re just beautiful art with interesting storys ...well even tho some stories are repeating xD

Honestly, I don't even read Killing Stalking, but I occasionally poke my head into the fandom to see if Sangwoo has been killed or arrested yet. SangwooXprison is OTP.

Actually-- *rereads Okarisu's first comment* *takes deep breath* Never mind. *twitches* Imma go write or something.

oh well have fun :) it could have been a really interesting discussion i think but well - guess you re not interested in that - then i just wonder why you start to discuss something in the first place ;) aaaanyway bye

I agree that it is diverse and lots of readers don't fetishize gay men. However, I can't help but feel irked by the ones that do. Sorry if I sounded like every single yaoi fan has weird fetishes. I don't think that at all. There are just parts of the genre and the fan base (parts meaning not every manga or reader fits in) that I don't like and that I feel to be homophobic. There are a lot of works that are excellent. I wish they would break out of the traditional roles more often, but we can only realistically hope for baby steps in terms of social progress.

That's actually rather rude. Knowing people who dislike yaoi for those reasons, they likely stopped talking because they would have ended up saying something that might have offended you. They started the "discussion" because you fujos make everything about sex and it can ruin it for those of us who are here to enjoy the story. I have read so many good manga and then in the comments fujoshi are going on about how they should have sex and it's extremely annoying. So giving sass was unnecessary. They said "I'm glad it's not yaoi because I don't like yaoi." That was a statement in response to the original comment that didn't appear to have any ill intent. It was an opinion. You all chose to turn this into an argument.

Lol, sorry. Just read your second comment.

Yeeeeah the wink kinda threw me off two. Be careful with emojis everyone. Use them responsibly.

i joined the conversation after i read the comment about how homophobe yaois are - so - i m sorry but for me there was already a discussion going on and a really interesting one too - and his (or her) comment was pretty rude as well after i tried to explain my point of view - he/she could just not answer or answer ..but a good answer not just one that makes me feel like i m not even worth the time to get an normal response

if someone doesn t like yaois - that s completely ok - there are mangas out there which are only about sex or have a ton of sexscence in it - that s ok too - i mean - they are "human" - they have desires and those are part of their story xD so meh

i m also ok with the ones that have no sex scenes at all - and yes there are fujoshis who complain about it - weeeeell - it s their opinion as well - that should be ok too right?

I'm really confused. I don't know why you are apologizing. There are multiple Anons here. I didn't see any comment from you lashing at anything I said.

You had someone else's quote so there username was there and I got confused. I retract my apology! XD

The discussion was them saying they don't like yaoi. Others inquired and turned it into something more.

They never said that you were not worth the time to explain. They specifically said that they are bad at explaining things, which I totally get. I have strong opinions on things I can't explain well at all. So you basically got upset about something someone DIDN'T say.

And there's a difference between not liking a story and finding a story harmful. I'm not getting into a debate on why I find yaoi morally reprehensible because it's pointless. I'm just saying there's no need for snark when someone is trying to AVOID confrontation.

yeah well there are always people who go to far or don t understand - i agree and can understand that it can be a real pain sometimes - and darn i d love if they would break the traditional roles more often and start to make more different stories as well - like i said before - for me a lot of stories are repetive - and after reading a certain amount of yaois it s a little frustrating sometimes

but i also understand or have in mind that there are a lot of very young readers - and they might don t understand the problematic yet - i think discussions like that and explaining your point of view - will help to open their eyes

i don t agree that yaois per se are bad - because like i said before - they re not real and just a piece of art and fantasies

but i also agree that it would be nice to break the traditional roles and also pick up some real problems of our society - i think dark heaven did that - and i really like that yaoi for exact that reason (racismn - religions - homophobic problems etc etc)

and again - i joined the conversation after there was already a discussion - if you don t want to talk to me or discuss something with me - no problem but then don t answer like that - because yes - that is insulting as well btw i answered an anonymus and not to "i m just here for the story" but "i m just here for the story" answered in that rude way - that wasn t ok either

anyway - if you think it is harmful and you break off a discussion (and i m not talking about one person - there are more than one person answering here) than it should be even MORE important to answer and explain your point of view

and if you AVOID confrontation - AVOID it completely - don t throw in " i don t like yaois" but then don t explain anything or wonder why people react on that answer.

(but then again - i didn t talk to "i m just here for the story" in the first place - and just answered/reacted after he/she answered to my first comment"

I think she means I stopped the discussion at that point. I answered Donna and then the conversation was over so technically you restarted it. That's my guess. I don't think my my half-joking response to you was rude. If you want me to write an essay on why I think yaoi fetishizes gay people and why you're wrong in saying that yaoi isn't homophobic, presumably due to the oh-so-popular "it's gay so it can't be homophobic" response then fine. I'll write a really shifty essay that won't make any sense since I'm shit at explaining things. Literally my comment was just about how I would prefer things not be about sex and now everyone's at war because today in the twenty first century people are all about fucking and that's why we have over population and we're all gonna die and now I'm getting off topic okay I'm done with my comment now. :P

Literally I think no one is being rude here and we're all just overly sensitive about porn or something lol

AND again - i didn t answered you - i was talking to an ano - so if i start a conversation again or if i answer to somebody - so what? am i not allowed to do that anymore or what ? and why do you feel the whole time as if i am talking to you - when i m not.

i shared my point of view in a discussion that i found very interesting - i didn t even tag you - my answer wasn t for you - it was for that ano - so i still don t get why they keep on and on about "yeah but i m just here for the story just said he/she doesn t like yaoi and he/she can t explain why

i answered a person who explained why - and shared my point of view with that person - if you answer on my answer (for another person) so rude (not jokingly because it was rude) then yeah of course i m not gonna say "hey thank you for answering"

but if you want to join the conversation or the discussion then go ahead - if you want to write a hole essay - go ahead - and if you can t explain well - then post links of which you think they might explain it well (go ahead) because it is an important topic - but if you don t want to argue or share your opinion - then don t- then just don t at all - because just being rude doesn t help at all

and in not even one of my comment you will find the argument or opinion that this manga needs sex - so stop going against something i didn t even say - i can t talk for others - but that s not my responsibility either

again i joined a discussion i found very interesting and yes i m allowed to do so - if you don t want to talk to me - just don t- but you don t have to be rude and then wonder that i don t lick your feet and say thank you

and instead of having a very interesting discussion about a very interesting and important topic you and another person go on and on about that i said something to you - which i didn t- and keep saying things that aren t actually important to the original topic.

and if i remember right ( i ll check later) i answered a person who wrote AFTER you - so yeah - and why do you have the right to start or stop a conversation again?

if you read my comments right - you ll also see that i never said "it s gay so it can t be homophobic" but well - keep going i m oficially out of this conversation now - because it s sadly about who said what - instead of the original topic which was and is very interesting.

Ouch, well that was rude. That seriously hurt my feelings, actually. I guess this means we're all rude. Yaaaaaay!
I apologize because I thought you were talking to me at one point and apparently I was incorrect. At several points I thought that you put in my username but apparently you didn't so I apologize. I wasn't saying it was bad to restart a topic, so just like you are accusing me, I accuse you of putting words in my mouth. I also don't expect you to lick my feet. That would be gross.
I didn't say that you said it was not homophobic because it's gay. I said that is a common answer.
I'm sorry if I offended you, but you offended me. Personally, I think we're even. If you don't, oh well. Feel free to insult me until you feel better if that's what it takes.
I especially apologize to the OP. My half-serious comment was taken too seriously and I started an argument.

I'll throw in my own apology. I just felt personally affected by one of the comments. This kind of topic always messes me up since it's about sexuality and that's a topic that's really sensitive and important for me. I didn't even follow my own advice, I ended up arguing about something else.

hahaha ok i really wanted to stop commenting but your comment made me laugh xD

anyway - i didn t intend to hurt your feelings - i hope that was a joke from your part again - but if not then im sorry for that

yeah we're all rude - rude high five?

true - you didn t say that it was bad to restart a topic - but i ve been "attacked" for that the whole time - that was seriously annoying (because...yeah well i said it already enough - i joined an interesting topic xD)

oh boy - i really can t lick your feet now? darn after the last answer i d be ok with that hahaha (JOKING)

i can t check now - but i thought the "it s gay so i can t be homophobe" was related to my first comment - so i felt attacked - if i got that wrong then i m sorry

all in one - i m sorry for being rude in the first place it was unnecessary

maybe they don't like the bed scenes! :)

oh wow i read all of this. And i want also say something on this, so i can understand what they ment to say here and i don't think they want to attack you or be rude to you because what you answers or feel like 'i'm attack because i like this shit'' they want just to say they're opinion about yaoi... i read a lot of yaoi and yes there also a lot of story's that i thought about "wtf is this shit"" letterly drop this shit" or like "wow this is totally not what i want to read cause is too heavy fore me to handle ".

So and yes i think shounen-ai ai is refreshing,cute too and it's more like the real-life (time) (what i meant to say is that it is close to the real world) + i also like to read more shounen ai (also because it's not so like rape or abusive seks abusive relationship betweem a couple).

So maybe they want to say that that is the main problem in the yaoi world. If i think right now yeah they are kind of right what they're saying cause some(alot)are too much and the bed scenes also too much so i skip those alot! and i can tell also the difference between real-life and fiction.


so i'm not so that in manga all of those spycho shit have to happen and i say about yeah i support it because it's just "manga" no i don't do that! scum is scum fore me even in manga or realife i don't support them yes sometimes i had it whit yaoi's just maybe because i can't like it because it's wrong in many sentence i don't now!

for example: there is a lot rape and abusive scenes (the most like it here what i read on the (most) comments on yaoi's! (there a lot of them)), i can't like it i hate it to the core that's not acceptable and i can't even like it on the ''manga'' world ok i now it's just fiction but no i can't understand that why would i like it and accepted that in the fiction world bur in the real world i can't accepted that? that's the thing i can't understand i think it's the same or you like it or you don't, there is no distinction betweem the two?

but this is my opinion ( i had a friend who was letterly raped and i can tell you here life is fucked up she hates her self, she hates guy's everywhere she walks by, she hate's to be alone she hates if you want to touch her, she hates it if you even ask about what was like, or you want to say "if i was in your position i did that or that" so..no i still can't understand that! and if somebody says to her "i like rape scenes in the fiction world" but in the
"real world i hate it" before you even said that sentence to her; she kicked you out of her sight, even before you said i hate it in the real world.

help me understand why in the manga world is ok those behavior? and why not in the real world?



ow guy's don't hate me right now fore my opinion! i also respect yours so please be gentle haaha :)

but indeed it is so that the yaoi scenes on the story they like eventually the seks scenes alot, maybe that's way people like it? :)

but indeed all the type's of seks scenes in yaoi the uke love it! that's the twisted thing of all:p

I read KS and yes, I support ur OTP so much

to make it short - because it s a manga - it s not a real person with real feelings - so it doesn t matter - like i personally have no problem with sangwoo in killing stalking - but yes i would hate a person like him in real life and hope for a person like him in real life to go to jail (or better get hit by a bus) in real life - because in real life they destroy whole life with behavors like that - rape in real life can destroy a person completely and that is not ok - rape in yaoi doesn t hurt for real - those characters are only fiction - not real - it s all about fantasies and yes maybe really about fetish - not real - like i hope that everybody understands that the relationship that work in yaois wouldn t be healthy or good working relationships in real life. but well-like i said for me it is ok when a manga is sick or strange or different - but i m also ok with loveydovey cute - it can have sex scene or not - it can have rape scenes - or not

i m ok when mangas have nothing to do with reality and i m ok with things in mangas which i would never support in real life - because - in real life all those things can really be harmfull

Yeah I agree with how yaoi is constantly fetishised. I am a gay man and I have some strong opinions lol. In many yaoi stories there are a lot of stereotypes that just aren't true for most gays. An example someone else brought up was the uke and seme situation. I myself am a bottom (ya Ik you didn't ask but who cares) but there have been lots of times when a partner of mine tops but doesn't have that stereotypical seme personality. Honestly I prefer shounen ai stories, or any yaoi manga without the sex. The story is so much more wholesome if it's not being read as porn by minors or anyone else. Someone could argue that with me, but if they think what I described isn't accurate, would they actually read the same story, but without the sex if they're truly here for the story? I personally don't think they would. I have many opinions regarding there treatment of gays and how they're portrayed in manga. Honestly no matter how far it seems we've come with gay rights, we're no where near equality. I grew up hiding who I was, I have even been prejudiced for being myself. I know many who can't express who they are, and that goes far beyond the realm of gay rights. In manga the bullying some characters receive isn't entirely inaccurate. But regardless, gay people in yaoi are very fetishised which I don't agree with. I saw a comment further down the chain saying something like how they like rape yaoi but don't condone it in real life. That is fetishizing! Yes rape is wrong but some partners do sexual scenes with each other where consensual rape is involved, or rather rape play. And that my friend is a fetish. And yes rape is in yaoi, so yes, yaoi is fetishised.

This is why I get so mad. Because people always say that characters in manga are not real. That's true. But gay men are real. It's true that research shows that rape fantasy has no correlation with psychological pathology. But someone's fapping fantasies in their own heads versus media portrayals are not the same thing. Research shows that media exposure in both children and adults affect their level of aggression and presence or lacking of respect for people, especially members of minority groups. The amount of violent porn men watch, whether it's cartoon or not, correlates positively with their likelihood to be aggressive or violent with their partners. Women are no exception. Portraying gay men in these ways in media has negative consequences on real gay people. That's why it pisses me off when people say it's just a fantasy and they are not liable for media portrayals that are harmful to understanding, respecting, and equal treatment for gay men and women. They are ultimately saying that their fantasies trump human rights. They don't like to think of it that way, and they will pretend it isn't true, but their actions and their words betray their true feelings on the matter. Media trends affect biases about groups of people. We might wish we were immune to such biases, but we are not. Science finds time and time again that we are, whether we like it or not.

*Science finds, time and time again, that we are SUSCEPTIBLE, whether we like it or not.

Yeei! Thanks

As someone currently taking a global human rights course at university, this comment made me laugh so hard.

I am a gay person and Yaoi has helped me so you seem narrow minded and ignorant. "They" are people who just don't agree with your opinion, that doesn't make you correct and them wrong. I have also talked with many gay people who read Yaoi because it is helpful to them. You seem to not get it.

Many bed scenes are actually loving and Yaoi does not need to be based on real life gay men although many gay people have unchanging top and bottom sex position as well.

Whether or not LGBTQ people feel offended reading it has no bearing on the measurable effects it has on society, attitudes, and feelings about LGBTQ individuals. Also, people are more than capable of being prejudiced against their own group. It happens all the time.

I don't think you understand the difference between fantasies and mass-distributed media. They are not one and the same. Private fantasies are completely different than media and groups of people developing ways of thinking and feeling based on repetitive exposure to harmful ideas. Not all Yaoi is bad, but there are a lot of ideas in yaoi that have negative effects on the attitudes and feelings of people who read it in large amounts. Prejudice ia not logical. Repetition in media changes the way people feel about groups of people. It's a scientific fact.

I am guessing you are a child who has read way too many Tumblr posts. Seme and uke roles are not meant to represent gay men in general, I mean how hard is it to understand that? Also, the many mangas nowadays use uke/seme as bottom/top which gay men use. Lots of mangas don't attach personality traits to their favorite sex position but you wouldn't know that since you don't have a clue, you just read blogs and make up your mind. You should be ashamed of yourself for not getting it.

Right?

It seriously cracks me up how many raids here think unlimited access to free yaoi is a human right.

*kids

No, the kids think they should. The adults know better.

Damn, I wish I was still a kid, though. Good times. I haven't been a kid for over a decade.

I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight with me. But I'm not gonna bite. I agree with you that young kids shouldn't read yaoi. I disagree with you that adults are immune to prejudicial changes via repetitive exposure to biases in media. Let's leave it at that.

I didn't find it on some random place on the Internet. I recommend reading up on social psychology. From reputable sources only, of course. Peer-reviewed studies that are replicable and have been replicated. All that good stuff. There is more on the subject than you can imagine. The science is strong in this one.

Dude, I apologize. I thought it was funny that you thought that people sharing scientific facts about the harm of certain tropes in yaoi violated human rights. I still think it's funny, but I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I think it's funny in this context because if what kids on here say when they font get what they want. I know you aren't one if the kids, do I'm not laughing at you. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer, I don't want to start a name-calling match. Prejudice is not based on people's ability to tell the difference between things like that. For example, men can tell the difference between porn and reality, but there is a consistent positive correlation between how much porn men watch that subjugates women and their likelihood that they will commit acts of domestic and/or sexual violence. It's because prejudice bad snap judgments are not logical. Repetitive exposure to harmful ways of viewing people hurts our ability to, immediately and without effort, see people as they are with an open heart. I say heart and not mind for a reason. Prejudice is 100% emotions.

And you seem intelligent enough to know that the seme and uke roles are more than about who bottoms and who tops. That's not the problem.

Oh, and I'm sorry that my reply to your accusing me of robbing people of their human rights wasn't worded more gently. Jeez. Put the guns away already.

I personally don't think its a denial of your freedom, because noone here has attempted to censor you from reading yaoi or shonen ai and having private fantasies about what you've read. In fact, we're all on Mangago because we want to read mangas of that genre (and other genres too).

I think Ses has said it well about the problems that are associated with yaoi because it heteronormatises same-sex relationships (e.g., uke [feminine] and seme [masculine] role). And the fact that you've said that there is NO research on the fetishisation of same-sex relationships in fiction means you haven't even actually tried to research it. So, I've actually done it for: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/34276767_Writing_sexuality_heteronormativity_homophobia_and_the_homosocial_subject_in_modern_Japan
^Those are all academic articles on the subject of fetishizing homosexuality. J.K. Vincent even wrote a 200+ page on the subject of fetishisation of homosexuality where he talks about Japan's historical part of homosexual fetishising has led to present-day social consequences in how same-sex relos are presented in today's fiction.

Anyway, Donna, please do see this common thread as learning more about the LGBTQIA community instead of seeing it as a personal attack on your being!

Apologies for the gazillion typos! I have had coffee today but it has not helped me at all (+ was too lazy to re-check what I wrote).

Um...uke does not mean feminine role though.

Did you actually read it?

If you aren't finding anything, I can help you when I get home. There is a TON of stuff on it. I know because I read a lot of it in college.

Yeah I totally agree. Time and time again I come across yaoi that has rape in it which leads to the main character magically falling in love with the rapist. Like? No! That would never happen in real life. I personally have been victimized with sexual harassment in ways close to rape and even now I get nightmares and it affects my day to day life. There is NO way a person would become romantically involved with their rapist. It just doesn't happen and I know that from experience. You cannot argue about that fact unless you've been raped yourself, which most people reading this have not. I know women who read yaoi and yes, it does rub off on them and they create this idea in their head about what being gay is. Even if you're the most accepting person in the world, we all are affected by the media and what we see, I am no exception. If I ever decided to read yuri, I would start to think lesbians were all how they're portrayed in the manga, and I wouldn't even know I'm doing it because I'm not a lesbian so I don't personally know what they experience, so I would assume it's true. I also agree with how you see the whole " I like reading it, but I don't like it in real life" situation. Even porn portrays this. Porn is a sensitive topic, (I mean yaoi is porn though so people who read this manga should be chill with me talking about filmed sex) I understand that but it fits in to our conversation. Porn is all staged, it's called acting for a reason. Most things you see in porn wouldn't be executed in the same way as it would in a loving relationship. But, people who watch porn, even minors, may not understand this so their idea of sex and a relationship is morphed into some sexual fantasy. And it changes their outlook on things. Take BDSM for example, because of how it's desplayed in porn it's shamed upon. But the reality is that BDSM partners have more trust and love for each other than most people in other relationships combined. I truly believe that there are certain things in yaoi and in EVERY other manga that speak incorrectly about certain topics, and make us think their descriptions are true, when a whole lot of the time they're not. In this case that would be gay rights, and how gay relationships are.

I don't think you understood what they were trying to portray... I thought they were trying to say that some people stamp one of the men in the relationship as the "female" and there are personality traits that some expect from all gay men based off their sexual role (top or bottom)

I laughed because your comment was extremely insulting, I'm not "denying you" your porn. I'm saying it fetishizes gay men. I'm saying I think that is bad. Read what you want. Idgaf, but just don't push it onto others which was what I think that first commenter meant when they said they didn't need like yaoi.

There are people whose lives are being put at risk because the government is refusing to give them access to safe abortions. There are people fighting and dying to keep their ancestral homeland. There are people abusive relationships and foo afraid to leave. There are people being sold as sex slaves. There are people being murdered for their sexual orientation, gender identity or race. Don't you DARE compare me thinking your yaoi is fucked up to these ACTUAL human rights issues.

I was just reading this thread am am not on anyone's side but I just felt the need to point out that's a stupid argument. Russia's societal culture is different. Does that mean I should accept it? "Don't get mad at Russia for arresting gay people, it's their culture!"

"The majority is never right until it has done right." - Henry Ibsen

With your argument that could mean your opinion that I'm narrow minded and incorrect is incorrect and that you are in fact narrow minded and incorrect. That's basically the argument you just made.
Drag helped convince me not to commit suicide. That doesn't mean I won't call out any of the queens who saved my life if they do something I find offensive.
"It helps me" does not equate to "it does not fetishize gay men." My argument here is not right or wrong. It is whether or not yaoi is a fetishization of gay men. If there was a man watching lesbian porn I would not hesitate to call him out on that, too. I "get it". I'm just not okay with it.
If you want to read yaoi, go ahead. I know I'm not going to stop you. That was my point with my initial comment. You're firm in your convictions and I'm firm in mine. You are convinced that I am wrong and I am convinced that you are wrong. No one is going to change anyone else's mind. That was the point I was making to "I'm just here for the story".

*puts keys and bag down* Just got home after a long day. Let's see what's going on at Mangago. *turns on computer* ...Holy shit, what have I done.

*puts keys and bag down* Just got home after a long day. Let's seeing what's going on at Mangago *turns computer on* ...What have I done?

WE'VE CREATED A MONSTER!!!

Dude. I only just joined Tumblr a couple weeks ago. I formed my opinions from my college education and reading reputable sources. Your rude comment can't change facts and doesn't further your cause. I also don't read Tumblr for scientific information. You don't know anything about me, or, apparently, this subject on an academic level. So you should be ashamed to open your mouth with disdain when you don't know a thing about homosexuality, the media, and social psychology.

I think what really irks me about this issue is not the fact that people read and enjoy yaoi, but that so many of them bury their heads in the sand and close their minds because they don't want their perfect little world to be questioned, and, in doing so, blatantly disregard the issues that real people face every day due to media biases. Read yaoi. Enjoy it. But don't pretend to be pro sexual freedom and equal rights if you can't even consider the way social constructs affect other people. It's not all about you. It's not all about me. Yaoi is part of a much bigger world, and prejudicial biases that arise from media are real and important. And if you deny they exist, that makes it worse. There is nothing wrong with reading yaoi, but there is a massive amount wrong with choosing to continue perpetuating the problem by being willfully ignorant.

I understand what they portray, I think the issue is that you may be unfamiliar. Seeing a partner as "female" is not common in Yaoi and it is actually more common in gay men from my experience. They always ask me if I am a bottom, I am, and I am also feminine so there are men like me.

Nope, I said your comment is narrow minded and ignorant. You have no argument for Yaoi fetishizing gay men, none. By the way, so you are the same person as the first commenter who said "I don't like Yaoi". It's fine that you don't like Yaoi but it's wrong to generalize Yaoi the way you did. It's also wrong to belittle fans, etc. okay?

No, I did not literally say it a million times. Look up the world "literally". If you are going to insult someone's grammar, then you should probably only use words in which you understand the meaning.

I tried to have a nice discussion with you. You just keep sinking to that level of petty, poorly chosen insults. I'm not impressed. I'm not going to get into an insults battle with you. You're trying to provoke me into losing my focus on the issue we were discussing. But I'm done discussing with you. There is absolutely nothing I, nor anyone else, can learn from you when you refuse to step up your game from taking stabs at people who have been honestly trying to have a decent discussion.

Yaoi has opened a lot of doors and made more people accepting of LGBTQ+. Yaoi is also diverse and has many positive plots and characters. The uke is not always feminine and seme is not always the super masculine one, again there is diversity. The Yaoi world has brought more people enlightenment and only ignorant people will deny this because they want their opinion to be right. Ses and her multiple usernames are mainly trolling here. She has not brought one study and only people who are uneducated try to say they are educated to try to convince others.

I'm just here for the story/Okarisu/some other usernames here (same person) is the real monster here lol. Don't make arguments please. Mangago is a safe person for many people, don't bring negatively and arguments.

For the record, I said I learned it in college because what you are assigned to read in college is all reputable sources. Most people get a college education nowadays, so it's hardly a badge of intellectual superiority. The books you read while you're there are very reliable, however.

And Donna, I'm done talking to you. I told you I'd send you some when I got home, but I came home to more name calling and insults, so I'm not wasting my time on you. Have a good life.

If anyone else wants a compilation of research materials on the subject, I can probably compile a good list by tomorrow.

There is nothing wrong with reading and loving yaoi, it has made many people accepting of love between people of the same gender:)

I agree with you.

You are assigning what you learned in college to other things that don't really have anything to do with the topic here, that's the issue.

No, you said the issue was that I was bragging about my education. You're just looking for a fight too, I see. Bye.

I am not looking for a fight but I guess you are, geez.

That's not fetish. Liking stories with rape, found in all genres, doesn't mean they fetishize a group of people. You just said you are a bottom and many Yaoi mangas portray bottoms and tops. I know many bottoms and tops in real life and there are bottoms who are feminine, etc. Loving sex scenes doesn't mean they are not there for the story, it means they want to see two people making love, characters they read about who they want to express their love in physical ways, nothing wrong with that.

I wonder if people who believe yaoi doesn't fetishize gay men would say the same about lesbian porn. Porn does not make people more accepting of lgbt.

I'm actually very familiar. I'm a gay man and I am a bottom, but that doesn't make me the least bit feminine

Rape is a fetish if you like it. It's that simple. I understand that there are people who fit into uke seme stereotypes, but it pisses me off. People do assume how you are if they find out your sexual role, and that makes me mad because I get treated like I'm not masculine or that I'm less of a man. I also get some people want to read the sex scenes, but that doesn't change my point. The sex scenes are still pornography, loving or not, and there are lots of people reading these stories who enjoy knowing the backstory of the relationship, but are still only reading it for porn.

Exactly.

that's true i'am a girl but have a lot of gay friends and they don't like it too if you compare them whit the girl (as a girl role) :)

that's true too but a lot of people who says i don't read it or something they still do :) (i think)

i can understand what you are saying :) but you have also people who aren't so let it be en enjoy the things you like don't let it bother you :) and i dind't mean also to attack or something whit my comment is just understand both siedes but yes indeed in real life everything is hurting :)

also i can understand what you are saying i told one day to one of my friends who are also gay's and they indeed dind't like it how it's portrayed :) they even said to me what are you reading? i was like yeah that .... and he told me it isn't what you think it is cause believe that thing is not like who we really are but people still think like that? i said i don't now i know it's not real but he told me too but people think it is :)

I meant it's not fetishizing groups of people since rape is found everywhere and is in every genre plus it's not specific to Yaoi, many yaoi mangas don't contain any rape. The rape fantasy is very popular and does not come from wanting others to be raped, it comes from their own sexual fantasies of putting themselves in that fantasy of being taken. Sex scenes don't make it a porn and sex scenes don't make something a fetish. Fetish is when someone is obsessed with an item, object, part of body, etc. If you get treated like you are not masculine then that comes from western society as well, many gay men are told be always be masculine and not show any feminine trait because feminine is bad.

nooo and thanks to two's two dimb shit's it's gonna be a looooooooong way to go :) but i was happy that they at least are a couple now :)

I am also gay and a bottom, I am also feminine. Many of us exist as well. Plus in Yaoi, the uke can be masculine too.

Good to know you think that. I sincerely apologize.

Next time I going with my gut instinct and staying out of these arguments.

Porn does not make something a fetish. Porn displays REAL PEOPLE. Straight women also watch lesbian porn and has nothing to do with fetish! Many women learn what they like and what their bodies can do with porn. Watching something or reading something does not fetishize it.

That sounded sarcastic. I really do apologize for adding fuel to the fire.

@Aviina I also know many gay men who read and enjoy yaoi. I think we should all understand that yaoi is originally meant for Japanese audiences and from my experience, many find it amusing lol. The characters in yaoi don't even look human lol but I love the artwork that goes into it, many of them are beautifully drawn and have nice stories with some intimate scenes here and there.

I feel the need to mention that I comment on anything I see in the newsfeed that interests me. Hence my seeing something I agreed with prompted me to comment here. But you are 100% correct, Anonymous. Every single anonymous here that agrees with me is actually me signed out of my account. I'm just here for the story was the result of me not wanting to associate myself with BL, which explains why I commented on this, associating myself with BL, and currently have a BL on my reading list. I'm Michael, too. I thought to myself, "One day I might need to back myself up on an argument. I should make another account, just in case." You've totally seen right through me, Anonymous.

i m a gay guy too - and top - seme - active - gosh call it what you want xD i m saying that because it seems like as soon i add that i m a gay guy my point of view must be accepted?

anyway i read the whooooole discussion and i think both sides are kinda right but i also think that people who only think how harmful or even bad yaois are - didn t read enough yaois - yeah sounds weird - but there are all kind of yaois out there - from cute innocent - to brutally sick ones - and yes of course it s not (really) portraing REAL people - damn that is so so so clear - that s not how real gay relationships work (or should work) - but it s the same with every roman - with every movie - with everything in the entertainment industry - it s not real and we have to keep that in mind - i mean - only because i watched a spiderman movie and read the comics i m not gonna jump out the window - or let me bite by a toxic spider - there actually are some people who did that - but you can t blame the spiderman movie for that - can you? if people are too young - yes sometimes even too stupid - and don't not understand the difference between movies/mangas/comics/entertainment and real life- then it s not right to say the comics etc are bad or the problem- people are - but then it s time to talk with people and educate and explain.

i - don t find yaois harmful - and only because i said it before - i like rape in yaoi but i wouldn t rape a person in real (HELLLOO???) and i don t think rape yaois made me more open minded in this way (hell no) - it s a fantasy and nothing else - people need to understand the difference between fantasy and real life - and yes holy i don t think porn is real either xD - well it never happend to me that the pizzaguy came in and we had wild monkey sex yet xD - would be nice tho if he s atractive..hm...oh sorry my thoughts slipped in a whole different direcction now *¨cough*

back to the topic

it s an extremly interesting topic yup - but only because some of a certain community feel butthurt doesn t mean everyone in this community find it bad - so stop saying " i know some people from xxx or i know some people who are gay and they find it ...goood...bad...disturbing...whatever" because i personally know people who love and adore yaois and i know people who hate and think it s the worst (from the same communities)

i also know people who love porn - and treat their partner nice and lovely - and i know people who don t watch porn and still have crazy fantasies - where even i would run away xD

anyway
i think mangas etc aren't the problem - people are - and i think the moment somebody takes yaois as real - there is a big issue going on - i mean hey ok if its a 13 year old brat who doesn t understand - i can understand why that would happen (but then again 13 years old brat shouldn t read yaois yet ne?) but if an addult reads a yaoi or watches porn and says "ah that s how gay/lesbian/hetero relationship works" yeah...then my friend i think you re completely nuts and not the mangas- comics - porn are the problem but something inside your head.

i wrote a whole big text and i m not sure if it s been sent or not xD

well anyway to the "uke" "seme" roles - i don t know did you guys read minori no te? or did you yondaime ooyamato tatsuyuki? tatsu is more manly than nozomi xD nozomi is all fluffly and cute (like the cutest seme you ll ever see in a yaoi xD)

i think there are many different yaois out there - and yes i don t think they re harmfull - what is harmful is that people can really be stupid enough to think that yaois are real - that porn is real - but the problem there are not the yaois nor the porn - but the people

like i said in the long comment which i m not sure if it s been sent or not - when people watch spiderman and they go and get bite on purpose by a toxic spider - then sorry - spiderman is not the problem - but stupid people are...

i understand if it s 13 year old brats - not if it s an adult who should understand the difference between wrong and right and real and fantasies

It's okay to read yaoi/bl...we are all here reading bl and discussing this on a bl page. Let's just all take a breather and enjoy it by keeping an open mind and separating it from the real world and understanding that it doesn't define everyone. It's okay to love a masculine seme, masculine uke, feminine uke, support manga artists, etc as long as we respect people and understand that mangas don't define everyone. Peace.

https://imgur.com/gallery/3Vv2G6v

Porn is culture now. ok. Now I know

Nobody here has ever said porn is a culture.

ok. Soz for misunderstaanding

Actually sex scenes are porn. I don't think you understand what porn is. Porn is sex, sex scenes are sex. Gasp wow who knew. Also your point about fantisizing rape isn't what I was explaining. I was saying that people who enjoy rape scenes and read yaoi specifically with rape, have a fetish with rape if it's something they enjoy for some reason.. I'm not trying to offend you in anyway, you can have opinions, but so can I so that's why I keep replying.

Sex scenes alone don't make something a porn, porn is when it is MAINLY sex and that's the central part of the film, book, etc. A movie with some sex scenes is not classified as porn, for example. A manga with some sex scenes is not porn if there is so much more to it like a storyline. The more you know.

I don't usually hear the words "rape fetish", it's mainly called rape fantasy. I'm not offended, I'm also just discussing this topic in a relaxed way.

In quite a few yaoi, obviously not all, have sex scenes in every chapter, sometimes several times in every chapter. Yaoi like that is porn

Of course there are different types but yaoi does not have as much sex scenes as bara, most of the yaoi mangas I have read have sex scenes here and there but the storyline is the driving factor. A lot of yaoi mangas also have like just one sex scene near the end.

And it consists of just one page.

Yeah but if you branch out and read all sorts of yaoi there is a recurring trend. Regardless this conversation is so different from my original point on page 4 or 5 that I don't feel like talking about it anymore

i think if you want to know what he meansyou need to read c omments on basically any bl manga. my school's pride club is actually having some sort of seminar where the y talk about the fetishization of latinas in the media. we know people are definitely fetishized. but when people look at the fujoshi community they see people fetishizing gay men. idk if bl fetishizes gay people but justread the comments on basically any bl page. its the yaoi fans that make people think that way. do you know some of the distusging comments on in a heartbeat left by yaoi fans? i think it's not yaoi its that what people are seeing when they look in to the yaoi world are these people talking about sex sex sex sex sex. so maybe it isn't yaoi maybe it isn't you but it is alot of people.

I have read all kinds of Yaoi and most are not porn, at least the ones I choose to read. There are some that are just smut but I would say that's the minority.

Most comments on bl pages are positive and I have met a lot of good people who are respectful on bl pages. I do agree that there are people that are annoying and gross, but there are annoying people everywhere.

Thank you for your insightful, intelligent comments.

I would suggest reading some that you would otherwise not, to see if that statement is true or not. It is possible that it just happens that the ones you choose to read don't have sex every like 15 pages

"They need to have sex already" is positive?

that's true it depends what en when and how? i think maybe some are sensytive others are just open minded... i read a lot of yaoi but yes indeed you have yaoi that i think about "shit what the hell did i just read"? or really? but you have also yaoi that i laugh really hard and yaoi that are good (but i mean the strory not persy the seks scene) because i think if you read just the storyline without to watch the seks scene you have alot of good art work and story lines :) i'am on this whole discusion nutral so..

I would suggest reading more since even looking at your reading list, there are many that are missing from your list. I assure you, I have read quite a lot and many yaoi mangas are not porn. It would be wrong then to say yaoi is porn when many are not, it would be dishonest. A lot of them have deep stories and complex characters and that's the main driving factor.

Are you serious? That's the most negative comment you can find??

sensitive*

When did I say that was the most negative?

Those comments can be seen as lighthearted. Usually, a warning appears in the beginning so you won't need to worry about it too much.

I'm working on a position paper about this so I can adequately convey both my thoughts and the research. I'll share it when I'm done. It's actually kind of complicated to explain. I want to make it car, however, that liking and reading yaoi isn't inherently bad. Cultural issues arise from all forms of media. I don't think anyone should feel guilty for enjoying yaoi. Seriously, I don't, and I realize I may have come off that way, and that was my bad. I also think there are positive things in yaoi. I enjoy yaoi, even if I do not consider myself a die- hard fujoshi. I know these discussions csn make people feel uncomfortable. My background revolves around facing the uncomfortable, so I'm used to it and I sometimes forget how uncomfortable it is to think about that stuff for the first time. However, cultures and societies grow by facing and discussing these things. When it comes to Social Psychology, you literally find this stuff everywhere. As social animals trying to make sense of the world around us, our brains are hard-wired to simplify information so we can process it all efficiently. It's very interesting how this all occurs. None of us are immune, myself included. Becoming aware and checking ourselves is important in being socially aware and responsible member of society. Acknowledging these things is not for the blame game. Keep enjoying yaoi. Keep having fun. That's great! But when things come to light about the ways that various media cause problems for minority groups, talk about it and address it. And as you mentioned before, maintain awareness for the good messages yaoi sends. It does send good messages too. It's important to be aware of all these factors when indulging in delightful media binges. Not the whole time, of course. Have fun most of the time, but check in intellectually every so often.

The original comments here came off like people were saying enjoying yaoi is "problematic" and that these people who read yaoi are bad, etc and I think that's how the argument got started seeing as we get told everything we enjoy is "problematic" and it can create disagreements. I also disagree with the comments that say enjoying yaoi is somehow bad. Someone said that yaoi is for more mature audiences and I agree with that person because then mature people can understand more deeply about what they are reading and it's okay to be a critic while still loving something. There are many parts of some yaoi mangas that I disagree with while I still love to read yaoi because it's fun and causes me to relax, something about coming home and reading a really good manga about people falling in love and showing their love. I do think it becomes a problem when people distort reality but that can come with everything. We can make everything seem like an issue when looked through the wrong eyes.

isit about thelink? no problem :)

the link*

whise words!, i think so too you can indeed ejoy it but it's also that there are parts that you can say it's bad but that either oppionion of others :) so yeah i agree whit you

Thumbs up!!!

persistent*

sorry in the site 4 is like 3 here on mangago (▰˘◡˘▰)

I totally agree (=・ω・=)

thank you haha :p i though maybe i'm the only one who thinks so too haha (▰˘◡˘▰)

I agree with you Toua doesn't deserve him. and It pisses me off that he knows exactly what he's doing by playing around.