The later chapters is basically just the most frustrating thing where not a single person faces a consequence because MC constantly interrupts and puts himself in danger. This went from MC being a quite believable character... to being the very caricature of victims having to bend over backwards for their abusers. I don't know if this is something that changes later on, but I'm not sticking around to see. It's honestly incredibly triggering that a rapist NEVER gets punished while the only good characters (MC and Chris) are kicked in the balls constantly for simply existing (referring to the love interest).
Other than that, plotpoints are randomly tossed in with no introduction and many times dropped just as suddenly. Assumedly big names are mentioned and then they're suddenly dead, and we fall back into the frustrating back and forth between Vasya and MC. One of the most frustrating stories I've read in a hot minute.
so bad i literally had to get up and take a walk after every stupid plot point （￣へ￣）
I hope we all realize that the final relationship between the two MC are still increeedibly toxic and that no one in the past love triangle was ready to be in a relationship yet. Yes, Chunwoo was incredibly disrespectful, but Ho-in's behaviour was borderline (if not entirely) obsessive and sets a dangerous precedent for the relationship.
There's obvious codependency going on between Ho-in and Chunwoo, and the clear jealousy and obsessive issues that were present during most of the story are STILL present by the end of it... Like, why would you want the couple earrings if that was precisely what Taejoo and Chunwoo used to have for years? It feels a lot like overcompensating and trying to prove to themselves that Chunwoo chose Ho-in over Taejoo; the whole thing feels off.
Yeah, a piercing on the ear isn't a lot but have we actually seen any boundaries that have been set? And if there are any, have they in any way been respected? I just feel like this relationship is bound to fail, even if they never formally break up.
I don't think its toxic because they communicate how they feel now, and the uke has gotten over his former love. And we don't really see enough in the side stories to be sure if there is obsession or not, but in my opinion there isn't, the piercing thing is just to show that the uke has moved on from his former love, also there are many couples that like being obsessed with each other, there are people thay like to be loved in a more intense way. There are people that when are a couple like to be with their partner all the time, like when they hang out with friends, he or she will, at same time, be hanging out with their partner, while other people like to have a clear division between friend time and lover time and like to have privacy and time alone with their friends. So anyway, I don't think it's that toxic. It started toxic, because the uke felt guilt and the seme didn't know how to deal with their relationship, but to me it seems they have moved on from that. The uke doesn't feel guilty anymore and the seme isn't sad or angry anymore, time heals many wounds. I think that's what the author is trying to show us, that even tho they went through so much, the seme loved the uke so much that he was able to get past the pain from before, and the uke loved the seme so much that he was able to grow as a person with him and get rid of that guilt, because the seme did not want the uke to feel guilt.
I'm curious to know if you still stand by that point now with the side story and how Jo In basically lives on the very edge when it comes to his mental health. The very foundation of their relationship is disfunctional and cheating occured in the very beginning of the relationship, thus setting up the precedent that cheating *is* a possibility. Now they're both terrified and in a state of neuroticism 24/7, I can genuinely not understand how this relationship is NOT toxic.
The amount of healing and work a relationship like this (what with its foundation) requires insane amount of communication and healing, and what they've shown in this plot is *not* enough for the literal trauma spiralling that is happening with these two.
Whether or not you believe in "cheaters always cheat" or not, it doesn't change that the suspicion from the other party likely will always stay; in this relationship we see that happening with Ho In who's constantly paranoid that his partner will cheat again. This is not healthy and not sustainable. It's toxic and there's no reason to deny that.
//Sorry for long post, but I've really been thinking about this and the most recent chapter just solidified my opinion on this! In the end this is just a manhwa so I hope that we or anyone else can have an interesting and productive discussion about it. :))!!
Exactly I agree with all you said, both are toxic in their own ways but I’m more mad that Chinwoo even suggested to make him jealous instead of communicating to him, instead increase his insecurities more.
Oh, absolutely! It is quite literally the last thing a relationship as – understandably – insecure as this one needs. Still, it's an "advice from side character"-manhwa and manga trope that's been beaten into the ground.
Even in generally healthy stories like Define The Relationship, this side character trope prevails; the one where side characters further introduces insecurity inte relationship that never had a need for it in the first place.
I felt so ... Undecided and unsure during the entirety of this read. On one hand, I do love the concept, I do love the art style, even the plot and I did finish this story in less than 24 hours... But I still couldn't picture myself giving it 5 stars and was even struggling with the idea of giving it 4 stars. Hmm, there's parts that I love and parts that I loathe, and nothing in-between - I suppose that's why? I'm going to try breaking down all of my thoughts, so please excuse this behemoth of a comment:
Let's discuss the most important thing that broke my heart: Siwon's situation. Siwon deserved the world and got nothing for it. What were his dreams? Who were his friends? What were his worries and insecurities before the bullying?
Jiwook aimed his resentment at Siwon because he was an easy strawman to do so, but Jiwook was the one who kept digging this impossible hole the whole time – from the very beginning. Being compared to someone else, who's seemingly so perfect, and thus be dismissed by everyone sucks. It's inherently a difficult situation to be in and to watch; what could jiwook and Siwon even do to change their circumstances? Every word said in comfort has a high risk of being a trigger word for someone who's so filled with anger and vulnerability – we see Siwon accidentally triggering Jiwook during their every interaction... Having said that, however, Siwon tried desperately to be there for jiwook and support him, until the very end; asking questions to get a better understanding of the situation, all whilst Jiwook refused to let him in even a little bit. Through all of that, Jiwook's resentment grew into a monster that was just... So preventable.
At the end, Jiwook says that he had no other choice and that he was just trying to survive... But that's not true. He had countless different choices he could've taken; he was in a privileged position in the specific sense that he had a brother who would've stayed by his side through everything, and would've supported him the whole time. Jiwook was the one who let it burn.
But still, I felt so conflicted and torn when it came to Jiwook. One chapter I'd be cursing and rolling my eyes at him, but the next I'd be struggling to feel that same anger, even if nothing had really changed. Jiwook kept being that brat who refused to take accountability, feel remorse or grow up (even for himself). So why did I feel guilty and somewhat bad during the big confrontation?
It was only at the very end that it hit me. With the exception of Siwon and Taemin, Jiwook was the most "human". He was god awful and deserved to be punished severely for the unforgivable acts that he had such a heavy hand in, do not misunderstand me. I would feel angriest when he was interacting with Taemin or Siwon, and I would feel this guilty pity when he was talking to Siwoon or Yohoon. At some point, I believed that there would be a reveal that Jiwook's body had been used by Yohoon and co' too, that Jiwook in some ways was a victim, but that wasn't the case. He was heinous, but still, so was Yohoon. But Yohoon wasn't that much worse than his lackeys, and they weren't worse than the classmates, who themselves weren't better than siwoon. In the end, they were all monster who either participated or remained amused and entertained (or even bored) bystanders. They were ALL complicit. But only Jiwook had a reason, no matter how fallible and imbecilic it was. Yet he was the only one who was implied to be punished out of the countless perpetrators.
This all made me realize how terrified I was for Taemin (and thus Siwon). Taemin was fighting so hard for a future that would be HIS, only for it to be ripped away from him so unfairly. Even more heartbreaking that he was just quickly thinking about that future and those goals that he was closer to than ever, when it happened.
To know that Siwon had woken up for a split moment in Taemin's body and then still died, taking it with him, likely never realizing that the switch had even happened... To know that both of them lost their identities, efforts and work, goals and dreams, everything, in that moment.
A lot of readers feel upset that Taemin didn't fight for Siwon's justice, but I somewhat don't fully agree. When he realized that Siwoon had gone through hell, he felt a sense of responsibility to find out what happened and maybe even get Siwon justice. In the end, though, they never knew each other. When Siwon died, Taemin's body and all that was attached to it, also died; I wonder if there was any resentment over that (even if it obviously wouldn't have been siwon's fault.) I think I would've.
I mentioned that I was terrified for Taemin. Even with his explanation for feeling so attached to Siwoon, I felt like there was a lot more at hand.
There was a scene where Taemin mentioned that nothing in Siwon's environment belonged to Taemin, and that he felt bad using Siwon's money because of it. Everything around Taemin was fully unfamiliar, everyone was a stranger or an enemy; any reason to dream or to think about the future became unnecessary, because this new life wasn't even his.
Siwoon was the only familiar face, so he latched on to him. But even siwoon had changed so fundamentally that I questioned whether he could even be considered the same person anymore. Everything about him had changed. Og Siwoon even stated that Siwoon killed his original self, his identity. What familiarity was there really for Taemin.
But Taemin was so hyperfocused and fixated. I wondered if it was purposeful that the parents were never mentioned again after the coma, or that Taemin never explored any hobbies, or did every day things (without Siwoon) like eating or sleeping. Even when his dream of going to school was to some degree fulfilled, that is pushed to the side in favour of Siwoon.
Hmmm, Taemin kept complaining about Siwon's body's lack of stamina, muscle, etc, but never did anything to change this... Even when he previously had gotten his original body to a very fit state. Everything that made Taemin his own person was almost fully stripped to make place for Siwoon; Taemin who was a complex character became very one dimensional. Even at the end he never revealed to have any dreams or hopes for the future outside of Siwoon, and that has left me anxious.
Mm, this is perhaps unrelated, but I wish Taemin did more to honour his past self and that Siwon got some type of redemption, or at least acknowledgement. I hoped that we would get a scene of Taemin "telling" Siwon that he had done well and deserved to be at peace, even if it had to be in death. I hoped we would get a scene where Jiwook doing literally anything to remember and show gratitude to Siwoon and all of the efforts he did to be a good brother, even if he never realized that Siwon had actually died back then.
I hope I wasn't too negative... I loved a lot about this story, and just the fact that it made me have so many thoughts shows that, I think. This is such an amazing first story, so I hope that the author is very, very proud of herself because she did do a good job, I think. I'm really excited to see what she'll do in the future and I'll be following her work closely.
I apologise again for the very long read, but if you have read this far, I'd love to read your thoughts. :>
I love how you broke everything down. But there was one portion that I disagreed with. The part where you mentioned Taemin’s lack of effort to regain his original fit self. I believe that Taemin only did those in his original body to survive because without it, he wouldn’t have been able to. You also have to realize that Taemin’s original body and Siwon’s original body are completely different. Siwon is smaller and lankier, so it would’ve been impossible for him to gain the muscle that Taemin had.
Ah, that is very true!
I didn't necessarily mean that Taemin did anything wrong by not working out in Siwon's body. But I think it would've made sense for him to at least try considering that Siwon's physical weakness was something Taemin often brought up throughout the story. Moreover, I think having some physical strength should have logically made sense for Taemin, considering how frequently he found himself in physical altercations with people who were physically stronger than him and often in larger groups. Even if Taemin's body would've built and retained musculature differently than Siwon's, there were no implication that Siwon's body had any physical restrictions that made muscle growth an issue or a difficulty.
But my point was mostly about how I felt Taemin enjoyed working out and felt pride in his body, and thus maybe even saw that type of activity as a hobby/interest. I wanted to point out how we didn't really see Taemin engage in any recreational activities after he switched bodies, whether for entertainment or for survival. I felt that Taemin's essence as an individual and character progressively disappeared and was almost entirely gone by the end of the story.
//Thank you for reading through my entire comment and replying to it! <3
I definitely see your point. As a person who doesn’t work out, it’s much harder to start exercising from nothing and actually enjoy it. According to exercise-holics that I know, it only becomes much enjoyable later on. So, he could’ve been in a situation where he no longer felt the enjoyment of exercise. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Or maybe he was just too busy to actually exercise. Who knows lol. In his past life, he used exercise as a means of a survival, but in his new life, he had to use different methods. I felt like he was barely skating by in his new life without something barreling into him every second of his day. So maybe too busy.
I enjoyed reading your comment and your thoughts on the story. Honestly, this is one of my favorite reads and I come back to reread it every once in awhile.