Semyzza

If you didn't know, the majority of yaoi readers are straight women, and a lot of them are young, and a lot are hella homophobic and fetishize gay sex.

For them, gay people do not switch around (which is the common way gay people have sex), and they must ascribed heteronomative bedroom 'rules' on them. Don't mind them, 'cause if you do, you'll lose your cool. I had to learn to let it go.

Wait, there's homophobic yaoi fans? Σ( ￣□￣||) How does that work?

I would love to know how does that work, too

surprise! most of yaoi writers are straight women with no clues of homosexual relationships. in japan even the lgtb community is subjected to the "old" myths of an extreme patriarchal society.

I believe that to be indeed true, but what does it have to do with being homophobic? If anything, they are only ignorant of the dynamic of homosexual relationships...

That has always bothered me as well, but by now I've realized that it's a common yaoi trope that is here to stay (and has been staying... for a really LONG while now). I not only prefer relationships where the main characters reverse their roles, but I also believe that that is the way those types of relationships would play out if those same characters were really in love with one another. And this is not to dismiss the regular old uke/seme notion, since I like many stories that play out that way. Since they're so prevalent, you can't escape them! ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Eureka! Oh I see now. It's all about assigning heterosexual bedroom roles to a homosexual relationship! Since in a heterosexual relationship there is a character that tops and another that bottoms (that's how it can only play out in these relationships, ya know...), they "assume" that's how it would also work out in a homosexual relationship - at least, those that aren't knownledgeable about how they really work IRL. Well, that got me thinking now (⊙…⊙ ) .

Agreed with the majority the comments here ^^
The answer to the "fujoshi and homophobic?" question is the same as "likes lesbian porn and homophobic?" question: having a fantasy doesn't exclude you from potential homophobic behavior. In fact, some troubles in yaoi actively encourage a certain close-mindedness when approaching real gay couples. Aka asking "who's the uke?" (same old as asking "who's the woman" in a gay relationship) or some s*** like that.

Someone finally said it!

What? Someone who is "homophobic" wouldn't be reading yaoi, they'd be disgusted... You all need to find another buzzword. That's like saying "some racists can view the other races as equals". Honestly, you all look like a hivemind group that actively got on here and decided to comment on the same manga as a social experiment... So, to actually answer the OP's question, it's not about "assigning" anything, the question itself completely defies that line of thinking, "which is which" implies they think both could either top or bottom. People just like to discuss which of the 2 in the couple came off as more dominant, especially when it isn't clear cut. I love how this is such a mystery to you people, when you have sex one of you is going to be penetrated so of course, when you're reading about sex you're going to wonder which person is taking which roll at least at the time. "who's the top" as a question doesn't "assign" anything.

Lol, my reply to you died when I realized you are probably a misogynistic troll. So...penetrating has to do with dominance now? I cannot. Lol

"So... Penetrating has to do with dominance?" Stretch before you reach, that's literally not what i was saying, but whatever is easier for you to argue right? :^D Anyways, "misogynistic"? Based on what, specifically? Not agreeing with you? Because that's all i've done. I haven't said anything about women. Also, kinda. Penetrating does kinda indicate dominance... Common sense. To be clear, i'm not saying that any time you penetrate or are being penetrated that you're submissive or the bottom, just that it's an indicator. A submissive person wont want to top, that's what submissive means.

No, it's like saying "you can be racist and have a black friend". Which is by the way a racist' favorite excuse. "I'm not racist, I have a black friend". "I'm not mysoginistic, I love my mum".
People reading yaoi don't usually like bara. What is more, people reading yaoi usually complain if the uke looks too "buff". God forbid a man looks like a man!
If the questions asked where about "who comes off as more dominant?" I wouldn't mind. The thing is it's usually "Who IS the uke?" Which is way less fluid. One: it assigns the verb "to be": it's something permanent. Second, it assigns certain characteristics to someone that per se wouldn't have to have them.

A submissive person won't want to top? That's just not true. And it's again heteronormativity. Look, even as a woman, I can be the one "calling the shots" in sex, even if I'm the one penetrated. It happens more often than not. If a man enjoys being penetrated and also thing up his partner, then what? And why isn't it possible?

Answer: it totally is possible, and actually in most gay relationships they switch and there's no magical barrier protecting the ass of the taller out of the two of them. But here in yaoi for some reason it doesn't happen. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Btw, sex is way more than penetration. One of the revindications of the gay collective was about anal sex being the end-all of the relationship, which is once again heritage of heterosexual relationships

I'll go down your response and respond:

1. The examples you gave here don't campare, those are examples of token users. What they had originally said was "homophobes read and sexually fetishize yaoi(gay sex)", this isn't a token, there is no one saying "oh i'm not a homophobe because i read yaoi". This is a case of people saying something just is what it isn't. Homophobes are repulsed by gays, not curious about them and they sure as hell wouldn't be reading manga about them. Again, they're using the wrong word. "homophobic" simply isn't right. "people who read yaoi don't like bara", there isn't a connection there, yaoi and bara aren't the same. Bara is a specific type of fantasy, its all beefcakes. You can like yaoi and not like bara. Two different things. A lot of bara are lacking in the story department, this is what turns me off about bara, i like the looks though. "people usually complain the uke is too buff", what? Where? Show me. I've literally never seen anyone complain the uke is too masculine, but i have seen plenty complain if the uke is too feminine. Again, "to be" the top or bottom doesn't "assign" anything, "to be" doesn't have any long lasting implications, you can "be" the bottom OR top for any period of time. As far as characteristics being assigned, how specifically? The question is "who do you think is top and bottom", this implies they aren't sure and could see either topping OR bottoming, otherwise they wouldn't be discussing it because it'd be obvious enough to know. They see both dominant AND submissive characteristics. When someone says they "think he'll top", they're just stating who they think is the more dominant person because, again, dominance is an indicator.

2. I'm sorry, but it really IS true, you're interchanging the word submissive with the action of bottoming. You can't be submissive and want to top while feeling submissive. It goes against itself. You CAN however go from being submissive to being dominant if something sets that in motion, say, if you were turned on. If you go in feeling submissive, you'll probably bottom unless something triggers your dominance and makes you want to top. The moment you go from thinking "i want him to fuck me" to "i want to fuck him" you're no longer submissive. "i can be the one calling the shots during sex", yeah, you'd be a dominant woman during those times. You go back and forward depending on the mood if you're okay with both, if you feel like "you want him to fuck you", you're submissive in that round of sex, vice versa.

3. I actually AM a gay man, i know all about how we have sex. I hope that number 2 cleared up what i meant, because you weren't understanding what i was saying. I DO agree that in yaoi there is an annoying amount of "if the guy is taller he's the top" situations, but don't you think that answees the question? "why do people want to know who's top and bottom?", because that type of yaoi is so prominent that when one isn't like that and it's actually difficult to decide it's exciting and gets people talking.

4. No, sex is penetration by definition. FOREPLAY is the rest. That is why rape is after penetration, but molestation before.

Compare, not campare* answers, not answees* Damn ps4 motion keyboard... ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Some of you seem to not understand that there are loads of people (usually straight women) who read and fetishize gay men and their relationships (they don't care about the plot or their actual relationship/development as people, just the sex) but if they actually meet someone who isn't a het they are grossed out. That's homophobia.

That's called denial, if they're watching gay porn or are interested in gay sex then they aren't homophobic... They interested, but feel wrong about their interest. Some places just aren't very accepting, if someone develops "questionable" tastes according to their environment they're going to hide it or blend in with the hate. Again, homophobia isn't a negotiation, it's not "oh, well they might just hate certain aspects", its what it is, hatred/fear of anything gay.

Lel sis, homophobic fujoshi is soooo fucking common. In fact I'm sure most of Japanese fujoshi are bunch of homophobics, just go see Japanese forum like nijimen, or hell... check fujoshi site like chil-chil; The most famous fujoshi's quote ever is freaking "BL is just fantasy"
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=gZE&ei=HZPdWqSzPMLB0gTHpJn4Bg&q=”blはファンタジー”&oq=”blはファンタジー”&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i4i37k1.4485.7571.0.7998.2.2.0.0.0.0.156.257.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1j4.64.psy-ab..0.2.256....0.zGveXQBvQl8

Don't forget BL,GL,NL terms. Boys love, Girls Love, and Normal Love. https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1417663279
Just Ew.

I disagree with your definition of homophobia. I also think most people that are homophobic, racist, mysoginistic, etc, usually don't realize they are. They just "know" that "I'm not racist, but white people are usually better educated and thus deserve better jobs", or "I'm not homophobic, but dude, if you like me that's gross". A fuujoshi usually will be like "ohh they're gay that's so cute!! Who's the uke??" and that's objectification. It's not exactly saying that being gay is an illness, or beating you with a stick but it's definitely putting an etiquette of weirdness on gay behavior and approaching it weirdly. And I can name tons of examples in this same website.
Btw, that "they're interested, but feel wrong about their interest"... Have you ever heard about the term "internalized homophobia"? Most people will be like "yeah I have this gay friend I'm not homophobic" and then you heard the key sentence "I wouldn't like it if someone close to me was gay because what if they became interested in me???" (More common is the "they will have a difficult life" variation, which is even worse because it has a side of "it's for your own good" and "society is the bad one")

It isn't MY definition hon, it's THE definition. "an unreasoning fear or antipathy of homosexuals or homosexuality"-dictionary dot com. "homosexuality", as in the entire thing, not aspects. "internalized homophobia/misogyny/racism" aren't a thing, it's just racism/homophobia/misogyny. These are a mindset, a way of thinking, if you subscribe to these lines of thought, whether you realize it or not, you are -insert issue-. The example you gave of "internalized homophobia" isn't homophobia either, it's an example of, again, another token user. You can say the words "i have a gay friend, i'm not homophobic" and ACTUALLY not be homophobic. There is no better way to assure someone you aren't -insert issue- than by showing them you associate yourself with that group of people. If the guy saying that genuinely doesn't consider gays as a whole gross or distasteful, they aren't homophobic. They're just a token user using their token to avoid conflict with you because you just called them homophobic. If a guy says "i'm not homophobic, i have a gay friend", but on the inside he is grossed out by the "friend" and doesn't want to associate with him, he's a homophobe using a token to keep up appearances. If you notice, tokens can be used by anyone, homophobes included. An example of a, i guess, good(? Or normal?) token user would be those straight guys who have no issues talking to and befriending gays, but would rather not talk about gay sex because it makes them uncomfortable. If you were to tell this guy he's a homophobe he'd respond with "i have gay friends" because he knows he doesn't hate gays. Again, easiest way to convince someone you aren't against gays is to mention your gay friends. He will use his token to avoid conflict with you because he knows you're wrong, but would rather not argue. -i'll continue in the next message, dont want to lose what i've written-

-continuation-

You had said "who's the uke? Is objectification", how exactly? if this question is being posed, then they haven't seen the couple have sex and they think either could do either role. This question basically implies a blank canvas, they could see it going ANY way, otherwise they wouldn't be discussing "who's what" because they'd already have an idea. How do you objectify a blank canvas? Is it the DECIDING you have issue with? Because it was originally the question itself that irritated you. I can KIND OF see your point if your issue is with the DECIDING of who is what. But the question itself doesn't objectify or assign aspects because, again, the question itself goes outside that line of thought. "who is what" implies they could see it go any way, which is the OPPOSITE of assigning them a role, its being pretty sure they could do whatever they want. The reason i could only KIND OF see your point if you take issue with the DECIDING is because, when they say "i think he'll top/bottom" that doesn't imply a measure of time. They aren't "assigning him a role", they're just noting that to them he seems the more submissive of the two, he looks like he wants to be fucked. They just think that if they were to have sex he MIGHT be the bottom, not for any certain period of time, they could switch whenever as, again, if the positions were clear cut they wouldn't be discussing who will fill what role. Something i think should be made clear is that: saying "i think they'll top/bottom" DOESN'T mean you think it'll always be like that, it's just an pbservation on who you think wants to be fucked.

I mean, i GUESS i could see some people disassociating the BL fantasy from irl BL... Though you'd have to do some real mental gymnastics... That's like those guys who say they aren't gay but give their friends blowjobs and like it. I still wouldn't call that "homophobia", i'd call it denial because, whether they like it or not, they had the option to read straight manga and chose yaoi. They have an interest in it and aren't as repulsed as they'd like others to believe. Keep culture in mind, in Korea it isn't okay to be gay, they're probably just saying what society wants them to think.

As a gay person, i dont feel offended when i read comments like who's top or bottom cause i also ask those question myself haha. yes there is no assign role in real life but there are real people out there that prefers bottoming or topping.
also calling yaoi(BL) "is just fantasy" is not being homophobic cause its true that yaoi are fantasy stories.

im gay but don't hate homophobic people, cause different people have different opinions i dont need acceptance by every people in the world as long as they dont hit me in the face lol.

also being a fujoshi doesn't mean they accept gay people unconditionally, we dont know maybe most girls on this site never met a gay person before. maybe they'll change their mind after meeting one because expectation did not met reality haha

Easy example for the ones who seems to just cannot get it: some straight, homophobic men have fantasies about fucking with two women (lesbians). They want to see them make out, it's hot, but be able to fuck them, too. Now, if these two women were to come out and say I am a lesbian and deserves my birth given right as a human being living on this Earth, they would be denied it by those men and be subjected to all levels of oppression. But those men still find two women making out hot and fucking each other hot, but they just want to intervene when they want and they do not want these two women to actually be gay. That's a form of homophobia and many foujoshis suffer from it. I know, I've come into contact with many.

Blanket statements for the win? You didn't give any context in that example, no country/religions involved/culture. In america there isn't a man who could deny lesbians their human rights. Also, you didn't give any insight into this "oppression" either. I've literally never heard of a guy thinking lesbians shouldn't exist... I honestly think gay men have it infinitely harder here. It is WAY more "natural" in the average hetero person's eyes for 2 women to experiment. From my personal experience it was always the outed gays that got attention while as the lesbians would just be considered as "hot" or "wild". By both men and women. Also, to be frank, i wouldn't believe you if you told me you'd actually met a man who thinks lesbians are hot and jacks off to them etc, but is repulsed by lesbians and wants them to not exist. Paradox much? ╮(￣▽￣)╭ I think you're the one detached from reality and not understanding things.

Wooooooowwwww i can't even with this comment. I'm glad you have known so many good people then. I know many people like @Lovena said, sadly.
And there are many HOMOPHOBIC behaviors that come from people that don't consider themselves homophobic.
And yeah, they objectify lesbians but then they say things like "you haven't tasted a real sick yet" etc. I wish it was rare. It's not. If you don't know those kind of people, you're really lucky. If you're gay and you haven't found this kind of discrimination, I envy you. But right now, you're doing kind of the same "your experience is not true" thing and I find that very sad.
Since I don't want the people who answered this first to keep getting notifications from this thread, if you want me to further discuss this contact me by pm.(￣∇￣")

**a real dick (thanks autocorrect)

That's less homophobia and more sleazebags being sleazebags (in the context you just gave that example). I"ve gotten that same question plenty of times, "how do you know you're gay if you haven't tried it with a chick?", i never viewed that question itself as homophobic as it's just curiosity. This is the same as the last example you gave, you're taking harmless questions/statements as homophobia. Asking "how do you know?" or saying "i have gay friends, i'm not homophobic" doesn't automatically mean they're a homophobe... What matters is context and intentions, i've been saying this repeatedly, but you're either of the homophobic mindset or you're not with no in-betweens. What you SAY doesn't matter, people have trouble communicating and articulating all the time. What matters is how you think and feel about gays. Saying something offensive isn't the same as being homophobic and words can be taken back/corrected. As far as me "doing the same and denying their hardships", i did no such thing, i gave my own personal experience and made sure to use words like "mostly, in general, etc" to show that i'm not saying everywhere is the same as my personal experience... I don't know how you take everything the way you do and get offended so much when i'm literally tailoring my speech to not be as offensive... Who thknks everywhere works exactly how they're used to anyways? Pay attention to my wording, i do it on purpose because, again, words are important. As far as PMing you, i dont want to, i'm just responding to you at this point and no one else has complained about it.

>also calling yaoi(BL) "is just fantasy" is not being homophobic cause its true that yaoi are fantasy stories.

BL is indeed just a fantasy story, but the origin of that meme was not that cute. It cames from an interview with fujoshi(s) back then in 2007 when BL manga publication was really raising. Basically those fujoshi ancestry said BL is just fantasy (2D), they don't like 3D gays, they don't like real life gays, they only like BL and BL is just fantasy, don't put 3D and 2D together etc.
Buuuuuuuut youraedthiswrogn does has a point; "they're probably just saying what society wants them to think." cause that interview is 10 years ago, people still close minded, (though some Japanese fujoshi still using that meme until NOW) and the term of "fujoshi" was so derogatory; Rotten girl, rotten cause liking homosexual wasn't socially acceptable back then, fujoshi ancestry using this term to identify themselves, calling themselves rotten so they don't have to feel that guilty. Though I'm sure younger ones don't even know/care what it means.
SO yeah homophobics fujoshi did exist.

oops forgot to quote this

Who is referencing the meme when they say "BL is fantasy"?! Thanks for the trivia i guess, but no one was discussing the meme, you went on a tangent. As far as the fujoshi back then being homophobic, what you just said can be explained by what i said as well. You just said they said "we dont like gays, they just like BL because its fantasy", now i'm assuming they were talking to SOMEONE while saying this yes? Now, what are the odds that the person they were talking to, that knows they read yao as they're asking about it, was open minded and just asking in a neutral tone? They were making a public statement, "i'm not okay with gays! I just read fiction!" only to go home and read yaoi full of shame because of the times. I've said this before, homophobia isn't words, it's a mindset. Being offensive isn't the same as being homophobic. Words can be taken back/corrected and people can say things they don't mean.

It's only more common for gay people who have anal sex (though there are gay couples who do do the "top"/"bottom" thing), a lot of gay people don't even do anal sex. So assuming there is penetration below the belt is heteronormative in itself.

We didn't say anal though, "penetration". Oral sex is sex too. Though i DO think that for a gay to lose their virginity they should have to fuck a guy's ass or be fucked in theirs. That's just a personal opinion, i know that technically if you have your dick in another guy's mouth you're still having sex, hence "oral SEX". It's just a matter of taste to me, doesn't feel like you've really "graduated" till you've had sex with the hole that is clearly meant to be fucked between two men, the prostate being there just makes it concrete for me. Has nothing to do with "oh, one needs to be fucked in the vagina", or whatever "heteronormative" crap you guys keep forcing into other people's mouths without asking their reason for thinking that way. It's more of that the biology, to me, says that that is where men are supposed to do it because, again, prostate. It's an observation, like how you can look at a person's, say, mouth and decide what it's probably used for.

Furthermore, the anus stretches and accommodates gay sex very well, basic observation can lead you to see it is the most ideal place for a man to fuck another man. I don't even consider it "heteronormative" to assume anal penetration either... The urge to penetrate is a basic, primal urge and considering that the anus is the most ideal location to partake of this basic human instinct, it makes sense to assume they do anal. I'd argue that the gays who don't do anal are special cases, the minority. Reality is that most gays do anal so it isn't "heteronormative" to assume a logical fact. The odds are more likely that they DO do anal, so it isn't strange to go in assuming.

The urge humans feel is to get off, not necessarily by penetration. Hetero men like to penetrate vaginas when they are horny, so that means most gay men are the same when it comes to anal sex right? No. The anus is not ideal for a lot of people, that includes gay people (even in the more open-minded places). Some don't like being penetrated, nor do they like penetrating back there. It's really a "some do, some don't" thing.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with anal sex (I think it's interesting, and hot when between two guys), but realistically (and statistically) it's not for everyone. Many gay men/couples forgo it. More than you think.

It's hard to disagree with what you're saying, because the way you worded it comes across really broad and vague: "the anus is not an ideal place for A LOT of people", "SOME don't like being penetrated", "it's not for EVERYONE", "MANY gay men/couples forgo it". The issue i take with your response is that it is in response to what I was saying, that being "MOST gay men do anal because it is the most OPTIMAL place for a man to stick his dick in another man". I'm talking higher PERCENTAGES, as in the majority group and when i say the anus is the most OPTIMAL place to be fucked as a man i mean OPTIMAL, not easy. Like, yeah, there're other cases like you're saying, but my point was never that there wasn't. I can't argue with any of the quotes above, but i don't view them as an appropriate counter to what i had said. So, you said "the urge to get off, not necessarily penetrate", what? Forgive me, but this really seems like a huge reach, penetration is definitely a basic male urge. Have you never seen a guy get horny to the point he thrusts his hips? Who goes into sex thinking "i can't wait to cum"? It's "i want to fuck this person in any way i can figure out", for most people that "way" is penetration. Again, the majority.

Since some people are talking about statistics and stuff. A higher percentage of gay men do indeed to anal sex at some time or another than those who don't at all. However, it's not done as frequently as fujoshi and straight people believe. The people who frequently do anal sex are in the minority. Majority of the time, gay men do other things, such as blowjobs or frotting.

[goes back to lurk mode (=・ω・=)]

Thank you. :^) I'm wondering how frequent "frequently" is, gay sex is strenuous on the bottom's body so, of course, it stands to reason that a lot of people would, out of concern for their partner, not push for sex TOO often. There is also prepwork, which can be a hassle to some, so i could see this further limiting the frequency of anal sex and promoting the easier oral sex and foreplay. I guess my point here is that, the way you worded that: "the people who frequently do anal sex are in the minority" can be taken as just a matter of frequency of anal sex for various reasons.