I'm gonna be honest, this is embarrassing. I like Taku but some of these Taku stans are doing to fucking much. We don't know if Joowon is definitely the endgame. Taku ain't all that either. He basically knew that Haesoo's company had the video of the sex tap and Taku knew who tipped it off to the company. Taku kept that information from Haesoo until chapter 70 after he confessed his love to Haesso to clear everything up. The people that call Taku an "Manipulative asshole" or any variation of that, I get he was very manipulative in the beginning but that soon stopped once Haesoo confronted him about it and then Taku started to have genuine feelings for him that y'all see as MaNiPuLaTiVe. And Haesoo still gave him that month of an relationship.
But, to be honest Haesoo did things to Joowon to make him angry/possessive. Haesoo did those thing because he knew Joowon would get angry if you look at chapter 16-17. Haesoo says and does thing with other people and it's very obvious that he was doing it on purpose. If Haesoo didn't have any type of feelings for Taku he wouldn't have had sex with him for the second time (37) or the third time (38) and had Taku comfort him in Chapter 37. If Taku didn't "love" Haesoo then why would he even bother to take care of him when he was sick in chapter 49. Also whenever Haesso would have sex with Taku, Taku would always ask if Haesoo was "okay" or if he wanted to stop at any point in time Joowon didn't do that once even when Haesoo wanted to take a break. In Chapter 57 Taku said to Haesoo to "Take a chance and love me. Even if you're just pretending. I don't mind" (direct quote) Taku didn't care if Haesoo didn't have the same feelings. He just wanted to be with him. I knew Haesoo loved Joowon since the beginning of FUCKING TIME but i still wanted that hope. You know?
I never gave a fuck about Joowon once I found out they used to be step brothers. That right there turned me off immediately. Me personal I don't want any of them to be together because:
1. their parents want to get back together from what I remember so Eww no y'all would be step- brothers so that's a big no for me. The Dad told Haesoo in Chapter 35 and then The mom told Joowon in Chapter 43. Haesoo even confirmed the wedding plans with his mom on chapter 84.
2. I know Joowon had some character development after chapter 86 and on but he was still being an asshole
3. They all need time to themselves cause it obviously not working together,so get some therapy.
It makes me laugh how the Joowon stans will bashing Taku stans for one incident and defend Joowon like he did nothing wrong when Joowons done way more.
1. Pushed Haesoo into a corner when he wanted to get the lighter back to give to Taku and basically forced him to give him that gock gock 3000. Haesoo literally cried about it with Taku in Chapter 37.
2. He overly possessive over Haesoo when he was the one that told Haesoo that they were gonna just hook up and not be in a relationship. He literally told Haesoo not to fell in love with him.
3. He wanted to find out who Haesoo was sleeping with so he invites Taku and him to diner to get Haesoo reaction and just to be rude to Taku. That was just Joowon being possessive/jealous and not wanting any other man in his life he an fall in love with.
4. Not him going to Haesoo apartment (without permission when about 4 chapters prior Haesoo told him to tell him if he was coming over.) to see if he was there and to find out that he wasn't. (C.h 40)
5. Not Joowon putting the blame on Haesoo after Haesoo wanted to be regular brothers again and saying that Haesoo wanted to abandon him instead (C.h 56)
6. Not Joowon showing up at Takus' house out of frustration (C.h 64) cause Haesoo "ended things" with him and almost punching him in the face.
So conclusion I don't really have strong feelings for any of them. Its just that if you're gonna stan any of them at least have the facts to back up your argument if you feel the need to fight anyone on who or what they stan. Cause they all bad but in their own way. I just listed why I will never stan Joowon with facts. (๑•ㅂ•)و✧(づ￣ ³￣)づ If you read the whole thing you can come after meヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~. But I know everything I commented is right. Still opened to opinions.(⌒▽⌒)(〜￣△￣)〜
There are many reasons why Joowon stans are protecting Joowon,
first is that most of the 'Toxic' Taku Stan's are still calling him toxic despite knowing that fact that he is trying is best to become a suitable man for Haesoo, he admitted himself that he was being an asshole, he did so many sacrifices for what you are calling 'some' development changes, clearly it's not only 'some' but lots, I am not here to fetch a fight but please just don't look over the good points of Taku, he has been with Haesoo though lots of times but that doesn't mean you would directly get into the conclusion that even if Joowon had 'some' development he doesn't need to end up with Haesoo. God knows why they are even calling him toxic now, Secondly, He did lots of sacrifices for Haesoo, first he bashed up the guy that bullied Haesoo despite knowing that it would backfire someday, secondly, he was ready to take the hate of the world, he sacrificed his career because he did not wanna involve Haesoo, Thirdly keep this in mind this is a very important shit, he was ready to let Haesoo go find his happiness, That poor boy just wanted to go congratulate Taku on his exhibition and he got into an accident Joowon was indeed a bad influence to Haesoo but obviously Haesoo if he wanted to he could have clearly said 'no' to all those but he didn't, next is that Joowon already liked since they were teenagers, he denied it because they were so called step brothers and told Haesoo to never fall in love with him (I mean he was tryna be a good brother ig) LOLOL but Haesoo Took that as a challenge and kept of doing things to make Joowon Notice him. Obviously Joowon got blinded in arrogance and started developing the mind concept that Haesoo would never let him go, He fucked him mercilessly, not okay, I hated that too but they haven't even fucked after the development came so why the duck are Ya'll still stucked on that shit? Not saying ya'll to support JooHae it's your fucking liberty to choose who you wanna ship with, this line made me laugh my assoff though ngl 'Joowon stans basing Taku stans"? HSHSHSHHS Bruh most of them are throwing hate comments on Joowon despite dropping it, for instance, what if Joowon stans starts dropping lots of hate comments for taku? Would you stay silent or would you bash those? Talking logically it doesn't make sense why you are even getting mad at it, Some Joowon stans are bashing Some Taku Stan's because they are dropping lots of hate comments about the author too in tik tok and Twitter, I bet every LOH Stan knows that though. So yes, they are bashing the toxic hate comments, you can check all the comment section that's what you will mostly see. I have seen many Taku Stan's Calling Joowon stans disgusting also that they are dropping it after reading it up-to 1/2/60/80 and be commenting shits about this manhwa as well as the author and Joowon stans and all because what? It was all because Their just because their ship didn't sail LoLo. Ya'll be Accusing Jowoon Stan's I'm if Joowon did nothing wrong? Every body deserves a second chance, he became a good person, isn't that enough to make a person Stan for that person, or are most taku Stan's dwelling in the past, move on, it's simple.
WOW, someone with arguments who quotes the story! Rare enough in this fandom to be praised!
I just want to answer about Joowon though.
- About the step brothers issue:
I think on this matter, it's really a question of opinion. I'll still give you mine. I don't think two teenages boys meeting at the age of 16 and living together for three years make them brothers. That's just what their parents wanted.
They were not raised together, and they never saw each other as brothers. You can't force that onto them, and more importantly, their parents can't decide what relationship they must have. They can ask them to get along, they can ask them to try to be friends. But being true brothers is a different thing.
Joowon and Haesoo always acted or pretended to be brothers for their parents or for the public eye, and they used it as something that linked them, but also kept them apart. In their adult life, being brothers was just an excuse to justify why they were spending time together.
So, even if their parents remarry, I don't think it should keep Joowon and Haesoo apart. They love each other so much, and what their parents do shouldn't prevent them of being happy anymore. It already ruined their relationship in the past.
About the last six points:
- 1, 3, 6: Joowon is jealous and possessive. It might be a red flag for you. Haesoo craved it. He loved seeing Joowon like that.
And yeah, Joowon acted like an asshole with Taku, I agree. It's part of his character. But it's only because he realized Haesoo liked Taku, and that made him afraid. He felt threatened, he felt powerless, and he reacted badly.
But, once again, Joowon and Haesoo have been in an complicated and obsessive love for 10 years, you can't expect Joowon to just accept the end easily. In fact, his reaction was really true, honest, raw.
I think that if you don't like Joowon character, though, that wouldn't be something you're sensitive too.
- 2: there, I have to disagree and correct you. Re-read chapter 41: Joowon told Haesoo to not fall in love with him, because he didn't want his father to separate the two of them. He wanted to keep Haesoo by his side, even if it meant they couldn't be together anymore. It's absolutely not because he doesn't have feelings for Haesoo, it's because he thinks it's the best way to protect them.
Then, when they met again as adults, they decided to have a fun and light relationship, to not bother each other life and relationships. Is that what they wanted? Absolutely not, the author made that pretty clear: Joowon and Haesoo want to be together, they love each other.
Why aren't they, then? That's the whole point of the story: they thought they couldn't be together because of their parents (which, like I said before, you can agree with but I don't) and because they're afraid of what people might say (like their classmates when they were in highschool). Which means the only thing keeping them apart is how people would react, and I find it really unfair.
- 4: don't have much to say about that. That's part of their relationship: they like to provoke each other and not listen to each other. It's not completely healthy, but I'm sure they'll fix that issue. That scene with Joowon alone in Haesoo's apartment, while Haesoo was having sex with Taku made me sad.
- 5: I'm not sure of what you want to say here. But I think in this scene, Joowon is mostly angry because he knows that Haesoo doesn't want to be his brother. What Haesoo wants, however, is some peace: he wants to get along with his mother, and he's tired with their too complicated relationship. So, at that moment, Haesoo choses the brother option even if it's not what he truly wants. It's a choice of convenience.
Well, that's my view on things and Haesoo/Joowon relationship. I just feel like you didn't like Joowon from the beginning, and never really gave him a chance.
To be honest, I didn't like Taku when he first appeared. But I was already so interested by the story that I kept reading, and because it's a love triangle, I forced myself to understand Taku and to appreciate his relationship with Haesoo, to prepare myself for an eventual Haesoo/Taku endgame.
And now, I can truly say that I like Taku, I especially like that he is flawed just like Haesoo and Joowon are, and if Taku and Haesoo would have been endgame I would have accepted it because I know the author would have done it right!
I agree, but you left out a huge chuck where Joowon's character development. The guy admits that he was a jerk in the past and is working on changing it.
I completely agree with everything you said. Your right i didn't really give Joowon a chance cause of the relationship dynamic. If Haesoo ends up with Joowon I'll be sad but its not that deep. Its a story that I'll forget about in a month. Its just that ya i get he changes and ya they've known each other 10 +years. But it still doesn't under-mind the bad. Taku was mad shady in the beginning but he seemed to open up quick to Haesoo so I clinged to him very quickly. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
I understand what the taku stan did was wrong but thats not part of my argument i stated some of what they were doing was wrong in the beginning. When i said "Joowon stans basing Taku stans" my whole comment feed were filled to the bring with people calling taku stans trash,bitches,garbage,etc so of course i would feel some type of way. I didn't find out about them coming after the author till literally today so ya the 100% wrong and uncalled for. Its a story if you didn't like whats happening leave. But there was no need to be aggressive. Even if it was " what if Joowon stans starts dropping lots of hate comments for taku?" their are a ton of people doing that, but you just haven't seen it on your own feed.(〜￣△￣)〜(●￣(ｴ)￣●)
I don't wanna write anymore shits haha I am dying I never even write so much even on my essays,anyways I gotta praise you for those concepts of yours, I don't hate any characters there I just wanted to drop some of the good points about Joowon, it was nice reading yours though like seriously, UwU I give up that doesn't mean I am gonna give up on the current ship that's sailing though, I am willing and was to accept any ships from the beginning, if it was Taku X Haesoo I would still be happy, but since it's prolly Joowon X Haesoo Imma still be happy with that, we shall not spread hate. Fightingg xD It's true that many Joowon stans were also using hate comments, ngl both the communities have toxic Stan's but I would be seriously glad if both the parties were willing to be happy with whoever Haesoo ends up with and wishes Happiness to whoever Haesoo let's go.
That's maybe childish of me, but it made me happy that you admitted you didn't really gave Joowon a chance haha. But I understand why you didn't. Like I say, it's really a matter of tastes.
I'm a sucker for assholes who are kind to the one they love, redheads and characters who seek redemption. I had no choice but to love Joowon :)
Anyway, nice talking with you. If only everyone could talk about the story and exchange their opinions like this!
Yep yep, it was fun sharing opinions, btw our tastes kinda match hahahha
"Taku would always ask if Haesoo was "okay" or if he wanted to stop at any point in time" hold up... did we collectively forget that one chapter(?) where taku continued to have sex with haesoo even when haesoo pointedly shook his head bc there were other people?? lol joohae have been having sex for the longest time together, they know their limits although this doesn't excuse what he did in the car to haesoo but for taehae they basically just started out, of course taku is feeling up what haesoo wants bc they aren't familiar with each other. u cannot hold joowon for that one without consideration to their dynamics while painting taku as that all-time soft considerate guy during sex bc he also isn't. i won't explain the rest of ur arguments since one person already made a lengthy reply.
1. "He basically knew that Haesoo's company had the video of the sex tap and Taku knew who tipped it off to the company. Taku kept that information from Haesoo until chapter 70 after he confessed his love to Haesso to clear everything up."
Huh, so this is how y'all saw that moment? That makes sense. No wonder why many of you were surprised that nothing good came out of that relationship because the reality is that he was a "Manipulative asshole" in his "confession". Taku decided to use the s!x tape situation in his favor to somehow test Haesoo and if he could, guilt-trip him: "A part of me was even hoping they'd follow through. And maybe... If you were to write about it... You'd begin to feel guilty. And maybe that guilt would bring you to me, in the end." Taku never stopped being manipulative until he got the relationship, it wasn’t as soon he realizes his feelings like you and many people claim it was. What are you even talking about? Pressuring someone for a relationship is a form of manipulation. "If you care about me, even a bit... Will you kiss me?" Excuse me? What did you read for thinking this moment was a romantic confession?
2. I mean... Almost all the s!xual moments between them started because something was related to Joowon. The first they had s!x Joowon wasn't there, Haesoo felt lonely and blamed Joowon for being as bad as him. Second time? Joowon was a literal egocentric asshole who hurt Haesoo by his jealous actions, he got the news his parents were going to re-marry again, and overall he felt heart-broken for the hurtful things Joowon have said to him. He went to Taku and straight-up thinks: "He said I can use him, so I got my fill." And Taku? Ha, Taku was loving to see how sad Haesoo was because that meant he was necessary, he thought how easy it was to give him what he wanted since he knew enough about people like Haesoo. That mere thought that Taku felt like that when Haesoo literally broke down in his arms still disgusts me to death.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/love_or_hate_yeongha/uu/ibx_chapter-58/pg-1/
At least he fell in love with Haesoo aftwards. Ugh. The third one? Haesoo wanted to prove to himself he can stop caring about Joowon. The fourth time? Geez- Taku was so insecure about Haesoo's feelings to the point of having s!x with Haesoo almost forcibly. Nobody is saying Haesoo doesn't have a special place for Taku in his heart, we are saying he doesn't love him and that's the truth. " Taku didn't care if Haesoo didn't have the same feelings. He just wanted to be with him" The fact that Taku knew Haesoo still loves Joowon and vice-versa yet still BEGGED for chance doesn't show love nor that he cares for Haesoo, it only shows how he chooses his selfishness over what Haesoo feels. Haesoo said "No" to him more than one time since he didn't want to use him nor hurt him but Taku didn't give a crap about it. And for me, that action does not equal love.
3) The mother is having doubts about the re-marriage since chapter 74 and he fought with Joowon's father after his scandal. The wedding can still be canceled, especially if they come out to their parents.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/love_or_hate_yeongha/uu/iur_chapter-74.1/pg-1/
4) Joowon has been developing since chapter 68, explain to me how did he continue being an asshole when: He didn't bother Haesoo, he didn't stop him from dating Taku, he gave himself and his entire support to him, he protected him from the scandal and signed a 7-10 year contract to stop the scandal, he realizes how wrong he was for imposing his selfish wishes on Haesoo and condone all the bad things he did to him. Care to explain to me, please?
5) " Pushed Haesoo into a corner when he wanted to get the lighter back to give to Taku and basically forced him to give him that gock gock 3000. Haesoo literally cried about it with Taku in Chapter 37." Yeah, I condone that action too. Joowon regrets it today.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/love_or_hate_yeongha/uu/iur_chapter-90/pg-1/
6) "He overly possessive over Haesoo when he was the one that told Haesoo that they were gonna just hook up and not be in a relationship. He literally told Haesoo not to fell in love with him" I agree with the first part, Joowon was undeniably in the wrong. Chapter 94 explains why he decided to keep things simple and vague. Spoiler, it wasn't because he wanted to play with him. He was severely traumatized by how Haesoo disappeared from his life and he feared if he got serious Haesoo would leave him again. The last tho? Let that thing go. For real. Joowon said that to Haesoo because the mother freaking discover him and they could've been separated. Let that phrase die, for real
7) I agree with your points 3 and 4. Reason why it was a huge development for him to accept Haesoo's farewell and decision to be with Taku.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/love_or_hate_yeongha/uu/ibx_chapter-68/pg-1/
8) This is where you got me: "Not Joowon showing up at Takus' house out of frustration (C.h 64) cause Haesoo "ended things" with him and almost punching him in the face." Joowon didn't come to his apartment out of jealousy or frustration, he was extremely manipulated by Leo with the thought that Taku was just playing with Haesoo, especially after the rumors he just heard. How he decided to abord the situation it's absolutely wrong and I'm not excusing Joowon for assaulting Taku, let’s get that clear. But it's completely false he did this out of sickening jealousy. Completely false.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/love_or_hate_yeongha/uu/ibx_chapter-62/pg-1/
In fact, the reason he almost punches him in the face it's because he still thought Taku was just playing with Haesoo:
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/love_or_hate_yeongha/uu/ibx_chapter-65/pg-1/
I decided to stan Joowon with facts (づ￣ ³￣)づ Please, I would love to hear your replay (▰˘◡˘▰)
OMFG this is so precise. I am glad at least there are people like you guys who stands characters with facts
doing gods work!!
Hiya! I didn't want to add anything more (because I already talked too much) but I've been thinking about your comment too much to ignore it any longer.
I took Joowon's side in my first intervention, now I'll take Taku's!
- About the manipulation thing.
I want to put things back into context. Taku hasn't been manipulative right from the beginning. In fact, for the first part of the story, he was very honest.
During their first meeting, he mentionned the adult video to test Haesoo's interest (or at least his curiosity). It works, Haesoo watches the video, which proves he's either interested or curious. Then Taku offers him a deal: write about my video, and in exchange you let me photograph you.
There is no manipulation there. Haesoo has all the cards, he makes the choice.
(and honestly, it's not mentionned, but he can totally write about the video without Taku's approval - he works for a gossip magazine after all.)
Nothing is done about the video. Haesoo accepts to model for Taku, but he doesn't want to write about it, or about Leo (a celebrity working with Taku could make a good story too, especially if Haesoo exaggerates what he saw).
But the situation evolves: Haesoo and Taku's relationship gets more serious (they start having sex, Haesoo gets attached to him, while Taku falls in love with him) and someone sends the video to Haesoo's superior. This is problematic because of one detail: Taku is aware of that, and he doesn't tell Haesoo.
Instead, he waits to see what Haesoo will do. If he writes about it, Taku imagines Haesoo might feel guilty, and he would win him like that. But Haesoo decides to protect Taku instead, so Taku starts to think Haesoo may have feelings for him.
So, why is Taku manipulative? Because he doesn't warn Haesoo about the video being leaked to the gossip magazine, to see how he would react. That's bad, I'm absolutely not going to argue that. But is it really that bad?
I mean, in my opinion, it isn't. If Taku had sent the video himself, it would be unforgivable because he would be the mastermind behind the whole plan. But that's not what happened. He didn't trick Haesoo into feeling guilty to win him over.
Of course it's not healthy to wonder if you might seduce someone because they feel indebted to you, but it's totally different from provoking it. It was selfish to let Haesoo in this position to test him when he would have warned him and make it easier for him, but once again, he wasn't responsible for it.
Also, the fact that Taku admits that he knew about the video being leaked plays in his favor. It doesn't make it right at all, but it proves that Taku is aware it wasn't okay to do it. He's not the first character making a mistake in this manwha. And, if he was really that manipulative, he wouldn't tell Haesoo at all.
So, this incident was BAD. Taku did something BAD. It doesn't make him an evil genius playing with Haesoo to get what he wants.
About the emotional manipulation, "If you care about me... blablabla". Well, if we're honest, Joowon does the same. Everytime he disappears to make Haesoo chase him, or when Haesoo broke up with him and he told him something like "You just want to abandon me". It doesn't make them manipulative monsters. Once again, it's not fine but it's justified by the context. It's not because Taku says it in a calm way while Joowon screams it that they're not as desperate.
And I don't see when Taku "pressures" Haesoo into a relationship. Sure, I wish Haesoo stood his ground because I was very proud of him saying he wasn't ready. But that's part of Haesoo's character: he's very indecisive. He's not some victim either. Just like Joowon didn't force him into their dysfunctional relationship (they both agreed to it), Taku didn't force him to allow him a month trial.
Haesoo was moved by Taku's feelings (he even saw himself in Taku) and because he was trying to move on from Joowon, he changed his mind.
(oh my dog, I talked way too much already)
- About Haesoo and Taku's sexual relationship.
I think you try to explain that Haesoo and Taku start having sex because of Joowon (mostly). That's not entirely wrong, we know Haesoo has sex with other guys mostly to make Joowon jealous/angry. He also seeks other men as an act of revenge, or because he feels lonely.
But the first time they have sex, Haesoo hesitates because he's scared. He never seemed to be before. Actually, he was pretty straightforward with his usual flings. It doesn't tell much, but it suggets already that Taku might be more than an usual fling for Haesoo. When they have sex, Haesoo thinks "It's the same as usual", which is weird because he wouldn't need to mention it if it was so true. And afterwards, he doesn't tell Joowon about it (while he pretty much tells him everything about his love life).
The second time they have sex, Haesoo doesn't seek meaningless sex to forget Joowon for one night. There is already something more. Of course he's not falling in love with Taku, but he starts to feel something for him already. That's why he accepts to model for him.
What I'm saying: Haesoo wants to treat Taku like a meaningless sexual relationship but he can't. There is something more with Taku, let's call it affection/interest. Plus, if I can remind you: we see Joowon and Haesoo having sex twice in the manwha. Both time, Haesoo thinks about Taku (briefly the first time, in more length the second time). Taku is special for Haesoo, in a different way that Joowon is.
- About Taku enjoying Haesoo's sadness.
I see why you don't like it. The fact that it "disguts you to death" is really too much imo. Like you said yourself, Taku enjoys Haesoo's sadness because it makes him necessary, because it makes Haesoo seek his arms. It doesn't mean he likes Haesoo feeling miserable, what he likes is that Haesoo ask him for comfort.
Taku isn't even the reason for Haesoo's sadness, he doesn't make him sad on purpose, he's not responsible (once again). But when Haesoo is like this, he's more open, within Taku's reach, and Taku feels like he understands him.
Once again, it's not okay but it doesn't make Taku a monster. It's on the same level as Haesoo sleeping with other men to hurt Joowon.
- About Taku not loving Haesoo.
Well... I'm sorry, but I feel like you just don't like Taku and want to prove it with everything you can find. Of course Taku loves Haesoo, that's his story, he discovers love with someone who could never love him back (at least not entirely).
Taku knows Haesoo is in love with Joowon. He also knows Joowon is in love with Haesoo. What else does he know? That Haesoo isn't happy with their relationship. That's the very concept of their love triangle, Taku isn't some guy trying to steal someone else's boyfriend, he wants to help Haesoo move on because that's what Haesoo decides.
Now, we know the break-up helped Haesoo and Joowon realize their mistakes, and they will (most probably) be endgame. But it could have go a totally different way: Haesoo could have enjoy the easy relationship he has with Taku, and prefer it over the chaotic one he had with Joowon.
And I think you amplify Haesoo's refusal: he tells him "no" once, gives him his reasons, Taku answers and Haesoo changes his mind. Like I said, Haesoo is NOT a victim nor a puppet. And it's exactly because Taku is insisting (not pressuring, not forcing) that we know he's in love. Of course the right option would have been to refuse and to let time pass, but all the characters lack emotional maturity. It doesn't mean Taku isn't really in love.
- About point 8.
Thank you for saying it! I wanted to mention it as well in my first comment, but I said too many things and forgot.
Even if I've been team Joowon from the beginning and I absolutely want him to be with Haesoo, I also learned to like Taku. It's great to remind blind readers that Taku is not some perfect angel who did nothing wrong, but there is not need to paint him as the evil guy either.
When Taku appeared into the story, I was afraid he would be the perfect character with no flaw or depth, just ready to love Haesoo with all his heart (like the second guy in 10 Years Where I Loved You The Most, I could never like him). It's way more complex than that, and that's why I love their relationship!
While Joowon and Haesoo's relationship is passionate, Taku and Haesoo's is bittersweet: with other circumstances, they could have been great, but they had no chance from the beginning. Not because Taku doesn't match Haesoo, but because Joowon is the only one for him.
Well, sorry this is so long. I'm way too passionate about this manwha, it seems.
WOW I DIDN'T REALIZE I WROTE SO MUCH I'M SORRY
Please don't tempt me anymore, next time I'm writing a BOOK about this manwha.
Lemme buy it when you are done haha
you kept going around your points, you claim it is manipulative then it is not. you claim it is bad then turn around and say "is it really just bad?"
i skimmed through and you just cannot justify wrongs with wrongs, and that's what you've been doing the whole time. taku is manipulative, there's no level to being manipulative, he just is. withholding information from someone for your advantage is already manipulation. you cannot justify that it's not just because it wasn't him who personally sent it. that logic goes along the lines that you're not gonna tattle about the killing plan you've heard because it doesn't involve you until such point that you heard there was a price about the catching the criminals involved in the killing so you went ahead and talked. also, i think you missed the part where taku kept on acting pitiful just so he could pressure haesoo into a relationship with him, his inner thoughts said it all. he's manipulative, it is what it is so stop trying to make it better. manipulation out of love is still manipulation.
you do realize that haesoo sleeping around with other men to hurt joowon is so low right? so i don't get your point in trying to make taku's manipulative behavior better by comparing it to haesoo being an asshole. point is those guys that haesoo slept with actually invested feelings in him but he treated it like it was nothing because he was hurt by joowon, note the ex and the guy he slept with before coming back to joowon on season 1.
taku loves haesoo in his own twisted way but to justify wanting haesoo to be miserable just so he will be needed? that ain't it either. joowon wasn't a saint in the story either but you don't see him wanting haesoo to fail, manipulating haesoo and acting pitiful so haesoo would get back with him so he gets what he wants which is holding haesoo in his arms. wishing someone to get hurt is still liking that they get hurt because that is for their own purpose desire which is to be the one who holds the person.
you can like taku but don't look at him through rose colored glasses. take his character for what it is without sugar coating what he does in the pretense of love. taku is flawed, you just don't justify that and maybe that's where the beauty of his character lies as well. very unrefined with love, very desperate that he makes our heart clench, very self-centered because he wants to be haesoo's "end" which is a reflection of humans' egotistical selves. his intention is to be loved by haesoo which is arguably good since haesoo will not be burdened with his feelings for joowon and bad because we all know haesoo wants it to be joowon, he just needs to have a leap of faith. even so, his methods ain't it.
taku is very flawed, his actions brought on by love shouldn't be justified. probably most of us understands taku since he's somehow a manifestation of our selfish desires when it comes to love and honestly, when joowon was still messing with haesoo my heart was taken by taku but then the immense character development that joowon went through made me just rethink my definition of love. now i think i like joowon a little bit more since he showed me that love shouldn't be all about self gratification which is what taku represents. love should always be patient, kind, supportive and never bearing any ill intentions and joowon showed us that in the recent chapters.
ngl, i kind of want joowon to get back at haesoo, to hurt him by dating around as well and showing haesoo that he's not special and that he is replaceable but then that's not the type of character joowon is and it frustrates me. i want haesoo to know the severity of his actions, he should take his own medicine by knowing how it feels for your feelings to be thrown around like that (he assumed joowon is playing with him but he should see the difference if joowon is actually playing with him). although i also can't blame haesoo for his case with taku because taku got involved knowing haesoo only had eyes for joowon.
yep. we're both passionate about this manga.
Lol you did write too much, and I love it. Honestly, I never thought about it another way.
I think my extreme dislike for Taku showed up, you're right about that haha. I don't hate him, I swear. I just seriously dislike him and I've various reasons why. I never liked "soft-boys" in any type of media and I think that Taku is the embodiment of that archetype of character. When more and more questionable actions and thoughts started to appear from Taku, the more turn off I was about him. The contrary to you for what I see. Taku was presented as the change and the closure of the toxic dynamic by the narrative and by Taku himself, I'm not going to deny he perfectly managed to achieve those points, he is the reason why the plot keeps moving at the beginning. Without him, Haesoo would probably still hate himself and be unable to leave Joowon and this one would still be the same egocentric man we faced in the first season.
It would be hypocritical of me to put Joowon on a pedestal since he was the most auto-destructive character in the series while I just bash and bash Taku who is simply a double-faced and bad intentioned dude. Both of them were manipulative, it's a fact and there are no denies of this. But Taku, in comparison to Joowon, was left in the simple acceptance of his feelings and his selfishness has prevented him from becoming a better character, at least for me. Let me explain:
1) Manipulation/Pressuring for a relationship: "Just like Joowon didn't force him into their dysfunctional relationship (they both agreed to it), Taku didn't force him to allow him a month trial. Haesoo was moved by Taku's feelings (he even saw himself in Taku) and because he was trying to move on from Joowon, he changed his mind." I agree with this, but I still don't like the setting Taku made up for confessing nor asking once again for it. Heck, I'm not even sure if I liked how Joowon asked for the "relationship" either because he straight-up confessed he won't be serious because Haesoo would leave him, Joowon admits he even resent him for it.
I do still think Haesoo was intersected in an unstable emotional moment by Taku and the motives were anything but love and for this reason, I would need more context on what was happening. After his confrontation with Joowon in his apartment, both of them said things that completely changed themselves and their intentions. In fact, this moment was the reason why Taku decided he will no longer wait for Haesoo/Haesoo's decision and why Joowon faced a literal life crisis where he sees himself as a stranger instead of the protagonist he always thought he was. I also think this moment decided the endgame.
Taku, weirdly enough, was still trying to prove something to Joowon because, since the beginning, he had a weird mental competition with him. He keeps telling he has been seeing expressions on Haesoo he has never seen, saying he does other intimate things with him and goes to the extent of lying to Joowon about the true nature of the relationship to make himself feel superior, almost threatened him with being abandon and hated by Haesoo. Of course, is not like he wasn't unprovoked either since Joowon was acting aggressively towards him but I personally found it weird he decided to do that when he supposedly understands how special Joowon is to Haesoo. Joowon, after hearing those things, faced the reality that he is no longer the one who walked alongside Haesoo. It was crude and painful because most of the things he did were in order to be him but in the end, he accepted the side-role of being the "brother" if that meant he will always be with him. Joowon said to Taku that what he had could be ended soon (more specifically after the exhibition, his assumptions were heavily based on Haesoo's dating history + the rumors he heard) in comparison to him, who will always be there regardless of the label the relationship he had and for that reason, Taku will not live up to him.
And Taku took that personal since he wanted to be special to Haesoo, the stories the once attracted him no longer holds the same level as before because he wanted to be the present. He wanted the relationship. Taku does have strong feelings for Haesoo, I'm not denying that but the reasons why he decided he will no longer wait and constantly insist on it wasn't even because of his feelings of love. He kinda told Haesoo what happened that night and part of the reasons why he wanted to be with him, but he was thinking completely different things from those words. In the end, Taku decided it was more important to be the one who fills the void Joowon left on Haesoo, push him aside as soon as he could and not caring that Haesoo didn't want the relationship at the moment. Heck, it still baffles me he was thinking: "If I can’t win him one-on-one, then I at least want you to feel bad". That's just selfish and I just can't see the "love" on those intentions, it does make me uncomfortable. I'm not going to romanticize Taku's insistence.
So taking that into account, I was more unpleased with Taku's tactic of testing Haesoo's feelings for him while he just sat back and observe how he protects him. Maybe you don't see it as something extremely bad but I didn't like it at all how he enjoyed it and said: "Now, this is interesting" while smiling. You are right about the part that it would have been worse if he was the one who sent the video because then, Taku would have orchestrated the situation but he had the power to stop it and he didn't. I don't see how it make any less bad how Taku admitted it just to then proceed to once again beg for the relationship. It wasn't a healthy scenario and what Haesoo felt at that moment wasn't "love", he did felt fondness towards Taku but he also was sad to see how wasted was Taku for him. Like- The number of rough emotions Haesoo faced in order to accept the relationship are just too many to not hold Taku accountable.
Also, I never said Joowon didn't do the same thing. "Don't abandon me", "Don't leave", "You can't go" and even the "You can't live without me" are just as bad as "If you care about me, will you kiss me?", "I gave you what you wanted", "I know the type of person you are, so you can use me" and "...Maybe that guilt would bring you to me, in the end". Joowon and Taku can be just as bad as the other, but just because one also does it as well doesn't mean I have to hold any one of them less accountable for doing it.
2) S!xual relationship: Lol, that was just me being extremely petty pls. I think this aspect is the one I less enjoy in the story, every time I reread this I skip those parts. I agree with you.
3) Taku enjoying Haesoo's sadness: That moment was just no turning point for me and Taku's character, I might be overreacting but I just couldn't digest him after that haha. It's the fact that he took advantage of those vulnerable moments to get close to Haesoo... Just- No. It was good he consoled and he gave him his support as I said in the beginning because, if it wasn't for him, Haesoo would probably still hate himself. Of course, he doesn't make him sad on purpose (unless he wants to bring that feeling into a photo as we see in recent chapters) and he is not the reason for his sadness. He thinks he can understand him and he also expects the same and that's fine (?) I just could never let go of that part because Haesoo in a way trusted him and yet he still was taking advantage of that. But well, as I said before, at least he fell in love afterward.
4) Taku not loving Haesoo: I did say Taku fell in love with Haesoo, I just said that his actions don't give that idea. His arc's pretty obvious to understand, especially if we take into account how he was with his previous partners. He does love Haesoo and he does care for him but not to the extent of respecting his decisions as an individual. Consistently beg for a relationship (which is also part of the characteristics of a soft boy weirdly enough) doesn't equal a level of respect for someone. He shouldn't have done that and he put himself in a situation where is going to be heartbroken. The fact Haesoo had to endure his feelings of missing Joowon in order to not make Taku feel bad just shows how unable he was to heal. Yes, Haesoo had the power to denied this relationship and break up with him whenever he wanted but instead, because he is Haesoo lol, he blamed himself for not being able to completely reciprocated Taku and that is just sad.
More so because Taku knew it and yet he still wanted to be held just like he did before in the past, he keeps getting his hope up while deluding himself. Taku knew all the time what Haesoo was feeling but he keeps promoting and establishing the relationship, it would've been a BIG evolution if he was the one who let Haesoo go. But I think the author wants to be Haesoo the one who leaves him.
I feel like you really understood what I was trying to say! I'm not excusing or justifying Taku at all, I'm just trying to put what he did into perspective. So this time, I agree with everything you say. You were more moderate, and that's just what I wanted.
I read another comment stating Taku was arrogant in love, and his relationship with Haesoo would teach him how to be humble. I thought it was very true. I think the second time they have sex, he says something along those lines: "I've never been hurt before". Plus, he completely wanted to replace Joowon in Haesoo's heart, which is both selfish and unhealthy (he shouldn't want to replace Joowon, he should just wish to help Haesoo moves on). I didn't like him provoking Joowon either, it was childish and uncalled for, but Joowon played his game (started it? I don't remember) so I guess it was part of their competition. Like I said, they all lacked emotional maturity.
So, I completely agree. In that aspect, Taku's development is not over: his way of loving is too selfish, and having to let Haesoo go back to Joowon will teach him that. And what you said at the end!! When I started chapter 93, I hoped Taku would understand that Haesoo could never forget Joowon, and that he would let him go too. It would have been such a growth for him! But it didn't happen, so I guess we'll see that development later.
In your first paragraph, you say: "The contrary to you for what I see". Maybe it wasn't clear, but as we discovered Taku's flaws and witnessed his bad sides, I liked him because I thought he was well-written, not really because I like his type of character. I love Haesoo and Joowon for how complex they are and how problematic their relationship is, and I would have hated Taku if he were just a good guy showing up at the right time. I guess yeah, I liked him for his flaws, because I was afraid of him being a flat character that would have bore me to death. I don't like Taku and Haesoo's relationship over Haesoo and Joowon's, I just like it in a different way.
Well, my comment will be short because I have nothing to add. You phrased things in a way I would. Like I said, the moderation in your words is what I was looking for.
Sorry if I didn't sound moderate in my first replay, sometimes I just get extremely assertive and petty lol. So yeah, thank you for your reply. It made me rethink a lot.
I think Joowon was competitive with Taku ever since he connected the dots on what was happening. That's the reason why Joowon called him just to say he knew Haesoo very well and why he planned the dinner like the dumbass he was lol It was so hard for me to read Joowon in season 2 because I could see he was feeling insecure and bad because it was obvious that Haesoo was emotionally distancing from him but at the same time, he still behaved like an egocentric man-child. I screamed more than once "You dumbass!", believe me. I think he stopped caring about it as soon as Haesoo left him. He didn't even care for himself after that.
Joowon was provocative in the sense he was filled with rage by the thought Taku was just playing with Haesoo, more so because he saw for the first time the photographs he took of him, and Joowon never liked Taku's style. I think he even was disgusted by them the first time he saw his photobook (?) Joowon in that chapter never cares about his role in Haesoo's life because, in his head, Haesoo liked Taku a lot but for the other, it was just a game. Even after giving up being aggressive he still accuses Taku of using and planing to discard him. Taku was the one who made this thing something about jealousy that time, not Joowon. It was a fair game at the end.
I still hope Taku gets some development because my life in this manhwa would be so much easier if I could like him lmao. Now that Joowon has confessed while Haesoo thought how much he loves him, I'm wondering what role Taku has at this point and what he will do next. I hope he doesn't stay as a tool for Joowon's and Haesoo's confession. I hold the author very highly and I expect a lot for the next chapter, especially since he went for the cliché rout with the car accident.
Anyway, thanks again for your reply ❀!
I stand by BIG DICK DADDY CAIN> I don't care if hes sus.
1. Hes taller than Yahwi
2. HES SO FUCKING CUTE AND INNOCENT
3. I don't think he'd force sex on anyone
ALL TEA NO SHADE (๑•ㅂ•)و✧ヾ(☆▽☆)
All of a sudden Tae's lip scar disappeared Σ( ￣□￣||)
He didn’t have a scar, it was the seme in the second couple the one with a lip scar
And this is why I call him BIG DADDY CAIN (づ￣ ³￣)づ ε=ε=(ノ≧∇≦)ノ
Period like from on his name is big daddy Cain
Big Daddy Cain EXPLAIN YOURSELF BEFORE I JUMP SHIP ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ