idk's Topics (730)

Ikr?! But fuck... yoonbum u gotta kill her. I'm so so sorry but u hafta. There's is literally no other option ╥﹏╥

He does in the next chapter and smiles at the end. I see them killing people together then fucking afterwards..

Ahhhh! Spoiler :/ but thank u for the warning cuz if yoonbum starts killing freely and loses all his morals I am gonna kill everyone in this goddamn series and then drop it like it's hot

Spoiler alert...maybe hit enter 10 times and give a heads up before telling it for all to see?

Bum always had it in him, the ability to kill without remorse. But it was depending on whatever partner he found, one to shove him towards his hidden potential (Sang-Woo) or one that would help him. Sadly, he fell in love with the wrong guy. And as much as people are denying it, because it's the normality to hate a serial killer. Bum loves him...

I couldn't help but think of Frisk because of your comment.

Interesting! Who is Frisk if you don't mind my asking?

yea, but. don't forget bum is thirsty af for sangwoo ┑(￣Д ￣)┍

The MC of undertale, if you decide to kill everything in the world you start down the genocide route, if you decide to spare everything you go down the true pacifist route. Frisk can either become a saint who saves everyone through sheer determination or a demon who literally destroys the entire world depending on your choice as the player. Frisk has the potential for both from the start.

I was more of responding the the part where they said that Bum had the potential to go either way, but was influenced to go the dark route.

And I was responding to @idk 's post ┑(￣Д ￣)┍

oh, you're right. My bad "_(*^_^*)_/"

Eh it's been a year since he's been kidnapped. I'm willing to argue that anything Yoonbum does at this point is not to be trusted as his head is messed up. Plus, the moment he was away from Sangwoo at the festival, he realised that he doesn't love him. It's just Sangwoo's influence and the fear that Yoonbum feels that's making him act the way he is.

Bum's head was already "messed up" when he came. I think the breakdown he had was because of an internal conflict he was having and he could not accept that he doesn't love Sangwoo. Bum's mentality doesn't seem to have changed a whole lot from the beginning, he still has those crazy sexual fantasies about Sangwoo.The hand sweat and bathroom bj moments weren't too different from some of the impulsive sexual behavior Bum had from the start.

Alright ya'll, this is a hella long reply so you've been warned! xD
I type fast so I tend to write a lot more than I need to, but I like talking about this so here we go!
(๑•ㅂ•)و✧

The thing about that festival scene is Bum isn't confident in his conviction. If you go back over that scene, we learn that Bum is soo obsessed with Sangwoo that his plea to himself not to love such a horrible person is all for not. Yes, he tells himself he doesn't love Sangwoo, and maybe he doesn't
-at least, not in a healthy way-, but what we can't deny is his obsession. To be obsessed literally means to "preoccupy or fill the mind of (someone) continually, intrusively, and to a troubling extent," which is exactly what we see happening with Bum time and time again; but we already knew he was obsessed with him, which is what landed him in this situation in the first place.
Therefore, the fact it's been a year and he's still exhibiting the same obsessive behavior tells us that yes he gained fear of Sangwoo (with the natural human instinct to run), but the only thing he lost was his impression that Sangwoo was flawless.

I like talking about this so I'm gonna go ahead and throw his inner monologue from that concert here because it is oh soo telling of Bum's consistent inability to control his desire for Sangwoo:

"Everyone who looks at him loves him and smiles...you're the kind of man who is loved by everyone. That deep voice...and sweet like honey.... You said my name...with a warm and soft voice. 'Bum', that's what you said...
No! Why am I thinking like this now? Stop it!!!" *starts crying* "Don't call me!!! Stop singing!!! Stop confusing me!!!" (confusion because he knows that he shouldn't love him, he wants to believe that he doesn't love him...) "I hate you soo much...I can't love you anymore...I don't love you..." *remembers their intimate moments together* "I don't love you anymore...."
"The warmth of that moment is still present. Hug me and don't leave me...."
*cries harder*
"I...how could I...." (...but despite knowing he shouldn't, he does.)

We don't have to call it love, no, but to Bum his "love" is an obsession. We see his "love" breaking through more as the story goes on beyond that point too. No, he doesn't tell Sangwoo everything he was thinking when he saw him on the stage, but it's not a lie that he wanted him when he saw him. Later, he displayed jealousy and his fear of facing Sangwoo didn't stop him from asking if he slept with that woman. Bum didn't have a problem biting Sangwoo's finger when he was having sex with that girl, and he only had his hand because he genuinely desired to touch him despite the screwed up situation.
Reducing his desires to just "Sangwoo's influence" isn't wrong, but it is wrong to think that means he only feels or acts the way he does because he has to out of fear. He's been sexually attracted to Sangwoo from the start (jerking off to his scent in ch.1) and the narrative reminds us that this hasn't changed. He does it in spite of his fear, not because he doesn't have a choice.

Lastly, if we're applying Sangwoo's influence, or Bum's fear of him, to his act of killing the girl, I'd say there's little to none of it. The crazy-intriguing part about this scene is that, although Sangwoo set the stage for it to be possible, he ultimately had no influence in pushing Bum to kill the girl. It was the girl's words (and his bitter old memories) that drives him to kill her.

Alright I'll gonna stop myself now; if anyone read this far, I hope you were entertained by it if nothing else!

lol I just wrote a rlly long reply about that but I'm glad you get it!
ヾ(☆▽☆)

Lol, I guess mine can be the tl;dr version (=・ω・=)

Very nice! I agree that Bum's fear and attraction to Sangwoo doesn't necessarily have to be a mutually exclusive thing. People often separate those two, implying that it is not a possible option. But if we analyze it based from the series, Bum's the fear and attraction for Sangwoo can coexist. But as you said, it's definitely not in a healthy way.

Actually, in that scene Bum is in disbelief with himself that he can still manage to love him after all that happened, he's kind of arguing with himself saying "there's no way i can still love him after all that!".

Yes, this. This is what i had been saying, but presented better, i agree.

Ah shit you're all right. I'm sorry, I was still harboring a little hope that Yoonbum could be saved but I guess not. Your explanations do make more sense so I will gladly retract mine!

To me the only way he can be "saved" now is if he realizes he's being manipulated and feels betrayed to the point of driving a knife into Sangwoo's eye, like he once fantasized about doing. Don't say he's too obsessed to do that... cause I'd say he's too obsessed *not* to do that, and Bum killing Sangwoo in a fit of obsessed stalker rage would be like poetic justice.

Honestly, i don't think he IS being manipulated, i believe Sangwoo really IS in love with Bum in his own twisted way. I can agree that Sangwoo is manipulating Bum in that he is trying to bring out Bum's dark side so he'll do things that will bind him to Sangwoo, but i don't think that Sangwoo has ever manipulated Bum's feelings for him by ACTING like he reciprocates them, it think he actually DOES reciprocate them. The only person Sangwoo has allowed to live for more than a day after capturing them is Bum, he even SPARES him during the whole "I'm leaving!" scene (has Sangwoo shown patience with ANYONE up to this point?). Sangwoo calls it their "anniversary" when he brings that girl there, so i'm pretty sure that them killing her together is literally him proposing to Bum in his mind. He even comes when Bum bites his finger during the sex scene while as he'd seemed pretty aloof to the sex with that girl up to that point. The biggest evidence to Sangwoo's love (to me) is the scene where Bum rubs their semen together and tells Sangwoo he wishes they could mix like that and Sangwoo literally blushes. That, and a pretty good scene to bring up is when he basically starts crying when he thinks that Bum escaped during the part where the cop was searching his house (he feels so betrayed that he wants to kill him and then breaks down and says "lets be together forever" when he sees Bum still inside the house). The only reason i bring all this up is because you seem to want Sangwoo dead because you feel that he's lying to Bum and manipulating his feelings, but i think that evidence clearly points to Sangwoo literally COURTING Bum, that's why he stopped making Bum wear his mother's (sangwoo's) clothes, because he no longer felt the urge to hurt him. He even starts making Bum wear HIS (sangwoo's) clothes. I think it was last chapter where Sangwoo got crazy jealous when Bum fell on that fat guy's lap as well, he even gets jealous.

For that to happen Sangwoo would have to seriously piss off Bum and withdrawal all physical advances towards him. I can't see that happening because Sangwoo wants to keep Bum around. Still uncertain of what to call the attachment Sangwoo has for Bum but I think he' continues to be intimate with Bum because that's what Bum wants. By doing things like kissing, saying he loves Bum and allowing Bum to play out some of his fantasies, Sangwoo is not only ensuring Bum will stay but he's also feeding into Bum's obsession. Bit of a spoiler here for those who haven't seen 19. From the flashback we see that Bum often misinterprets simple kindness as love. Sangwoo however has gone past showing Bum acts of simple kindness and does things someone in a relationship might do. Right now Bum might think that Sangwoo truly loves him and he's not going to suddenly snap out of it. I think to a degree Bum knows Sangwoo is manipulating him. He knows the true Sangwoo is abusive and that is not something he should accept. But he also is too obsessed over Sangwoo to let the abuse affect him. Additionally from the flashback, I'm assuming Bum started stalking because he longs for closeness to someone. Killing Sangwoo would cease that closeness. Right now I cant see Bum killing Sangwoo as it would end the relationship they have. Who knows how season 2 will shake things up though.

I just replied to the same comment you did and i'd like to point my reply at you as well, if you want to read it you can. Long story short, i think Sangwoo is actually in love with Bum, but doesn't show it in the same we we do.

Even if he loves him in any twisted way, he's still a manipulating, domineering bastard. As crazy as it sounds, Bum didn't even get to "choose his own first victim". It was someone that Sangwoo himself knew and disliked, not Bum. And my bet is he had sex with that girl in front of Bum just in order to provoke him (he got her to talk about her dislike for Bum obviously for that reason). AND he's yet to reciprocate in giving Bum pleasure... Psychotic or no, so far he's been very selfish, self-centered even as a lover...

By what standards are you basing that on? As i said, by OUR standards of love he's lacking, but IN HIS OWN way he's courting him. There is very obvious subtext to every one of Sungwoos interactions with Bum.

Ok, by MY standard he's a manipulating bastard... if that makes you happy. He's not my favorite phsyco lover-boy. I much prefer Tate Langton from American Horror Story (at least he pretends to take Violet's feelings into consideration).

Well, now that we've established that by a normal person's standards a psychotic person's way of loving is lacking... My point was that he loves Bum and that you should be able to see that in the way he interacts with Bum. He doesn't treat ANY of his captives nice, but he treats Bum different. If you try to imagine Sangwoo's standards of love from reading the story you'll see that he's favoring Bum and giving him special attention. One could argue that he's faking it, but IMO it's completely obvious that he really loves Bum based on all the examples i gave earlier. If you can give me an example of when he treats Bum worse than any of the other captives then tell me.

Right now I'm not yet convinced Sangwoo acts out of love. Sangwoo has been manipulating Bum, at least at the beginning, and it makes me question if anything he's done was genuine. I agree with Me on this. It becomes extremely difficult to talk about if the characters love each other when using redefining the standards of love. I see the relationship between Bum and Sangwoo as an abusive relationship, not a loving one. It's a selfish relationship based upon control and submission.

What i'm saying isn't that Sangwoo isn't manipulating Bum AT ALL, its that Sangwoo isn't manipulating Bum about his feelings for him. My argument is that Sangwoo loves Bum, he just shows it in a different (and honestly quite clear to me at least) way. If he was just pretending that he was in love with Bum, then why does he blush during the semen scene and break down emotionally when he thinks Bum escapes only to see him still there. Yes, their relationship is abusive, obviously, no one here is arguing that. I've repeated myself on this point a few times, but, I'm saying that Sangwoo is expressing his love for Bum in the only way HE knows how. You keep saying that Sangwoo is manipulating Bum, are you referring to when he has Bum stab the gay guy in the stomach? If so, that's actually ANOTHER scene in which he favors Bum, bum loses the game that was supposed to decide who dies and Sangwoo STILL let him live and killed the gay guy. As far as Sangwoo not letting Bum choose his victim, its probably because he doesn't want to risk Bum going outside and running away, but him sharing something like killing someone he hates with Bum is probably one of the most intimate things he can do in his mind.

It could be argued that all the instances you mentioned of Sangwoo showing affection were not our of love but for Sangwoo's own selfish wants. (I'm unfortunately in school right now, and explaining it on a phone would be a pain. Give me a few hours to respond) Up until this point nothing Sangwoo has done has convinced me it was because of love.

Okay, whenever you're ready.

Yeah, I bet all abusive partners love the lovers that they love to abuse... yadayada. The point is, sometimes the way a person loves you is not the way you want to be loved. We still don't know what kind of love Bum would have liked to receive and what his ideal boyfriend was like before the Sangwoo fiasco. Sometimes you compromise with the reality and learn to love your lover for who he/she really is, with all the things about them that you'd otherwise dislike, instead f your personal fantasy... And sometimes the reality is just so distant from the fantasy, or the things you dislikeever present and glaring, that you can't compromise.
I've made "peace" with the fact that Bum is an obsessive stalker now murderer. But I don't want to have to make peace with the fact that, even for Sangwoo's sake, he will also become a doormat pushover...
Love or no love, Sangwoo's still clearly manipulating him: could just have brought Bum's uncle or that girl from Bum's high school to that basement. He could have talked a bit more with him to find out if there were any people HE hated, and brought them there without need to let Bum go outside. As for him favoring Bum, ever heard of the carrot and stick technique? Favoring someone can also be a way of manipulating them. And love or no love, Sangwoo is clearly manipulating Bum into becoming exactly what he, Sangwoo, wants him to become: another killer. Why? If he loves him, there's no reason he couldn't move him to another location and keep him forever captive without making Bum kill anyone. But love or no love, making him kill someone is clearly the safest way to ensure Bum won't report him to the police. Besides having a partner makes it less likely for any of his victims to ever succeed in escaping. All in all, love or no love, there are a million practical reasons for Sangwoo to make Bum become a killer. There are very few reasons for that, so far, that would actually benefit Bum (not Sangwoo) if he isn't even allowed to choose whatever person he wants to kill, now.
If Sangwoo keeps this up and never starts treating him as an equal, I'll just keep wishing for Bum to have enough and for that knife to meet Sangwoo's p**nis, if not his eyeball.

Personally i believe that Sangwoo is manipulating Bum to become a killer to keep Bum with him, it gives them a shared secret that neither of them wants out and i view it as another sign that sangwoo loves Bum. It sounds like once again you're forcing your standards of what a boyfriend should be like onto Bum, you act like bum doesn't like sangwoo just the way he is, can you back that up? From what i've seen the only reason Bum wants to escape is for fear of death, he's worried that HE'S going to die, not that sangwoo is going to keep killing. Bum is still in love with sangwoo even after finding out he is a killer.

Believe me when I say, I'm not forcing *my* standards on him when I say he should at least be able to "choose the people he wants to kill"... (and what's wrong with applying my standard, anyway?) And Bum has clearly been struggling with opposing feelings at least until chapter 19: when he first came to Sangwoo's house and saw the girl, his first impulse was to try to help, even though it meant others would find out he had illegally broken into someone else's home. He also clearly did not enjoy it when Sangwoo killed that old man, at the very least he was not happy with being forced to witness it. He loves Sangwoo, yes, but up to chap. 19 he was not all that happy with being forced to witness live and direct what Sangwoo was doing... My bet is even though he wouldn't have exactly "worried" about Sangwoo's killings, he would have much prefered that Sangwoo kept doing it somewhere where he wouldn't have to see it...

Regarding Sangwoo's feelings, I agree with @Jaz. We can't say for sure that what Sangwoo is feeling for Bum is exclusively 'love'. At least, not yet. One way to be for sure of his feelings is if we actually get Sangwoo's point of view. However, it's understandable that people equate that as 'love'. Perhaps, it is nearing to that, but not as in depth. Sangwoo's manipulative nature is probably entangled to his being. However, as I have previously said, those feelings aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. 'Love' in abuse can co-exist. But like what @Fallust had said, it is not in a way that is healthy.

Hello to you all. I haven't kept track of this conversation. But as a response, let me say what my piece previously in this post as a response to @Fallust:

Bum's fear and attraction to Sangwoo doesn't necessarily have to be a 'mutually exclusive' thing. People often separate those two, implying that it is not a possible option. But if we analyze it based from the series, Bum's the fear and attraction for Sangwoo can coexist. But as you said, it's definitely not in a healthy way.

But to reply to this specific comment, I'm reposting a reply of mine to a similar comment in another post (I apologize, I tend to recycle)

What's unfortunate is, now matter how you look at it, Bum's not gonna have a sane mind after all this, even if he does separate from Sangwoo. I honestly think that no amount of therapy could fix him, he was mentally ill from the start. Also, take note that Bum's living conditions in his past wasn't the best, he is poor, I doubt he would have the enough money for therapy bills or medication. I haven't even mentioned that he probably gets raped by his uncle occasionally (if not regularly). If he does escape from Sangwoo, (which i strongly doubt), chances are, Bum will be getting back to THAT life style.

Regarding the murder in Chapter 19. I had a similar discussion with another fan. (I'm sorry, I'm gonna do a repost again hahaha)

Sangwoo has introduced killings to Bum, yes. But with different intentions, in my opinion. If you read chapter 19, at the end, when Bum had done the 'deed', he tells Bum: “..you’ve always been the victim and got hurt and had to suffer…”, “…at some point you needed to let out all that pent-up anger inside of you…”, “…you must have been tired of pretending to be so innocent…”, “…you really suffered..”

Killing may have been Sangwoo's way to release all those pent up emotions. He's been by himself for a long time, perhaps he's seeking companionship in Bum? He's sharing his method of coping (?) with Bum. Because Sangwoo might have found it effective when it was he who was the victim (abuse from father), when it was he who was hurting, when it he who was suffering.

So, I don't think Sangwoo introduced this coping mechanism (? can we even call it that? lol) not because he intends to make Bum a killing machine. But maybe because he wants to share that feeling of 'release' with Bum.

THIS is a very good theory and i hadn't thought of that. very good. you're right that we can't actually verify that Sangwoo loves Bum, that is why i said "i believe" and "its clear to me" instead of "it is canon that". I explained why i believe that Sangwoo is CLEARLY in love with Bum and gave instances in the manga that really made me believe so without a doubt. The reason i initially brought up my point of "Sangwoo seems to be genuinely in love with Bum in his own way" was in response to the original post saying that Sangwoo was manipulating Bum's romantic feelings for him by constantly giving him false hope, which i didn't believe to be true at all and gave reasons why i think Sangwoo's feelings are actually love and not him just faking it to fuck (not literally) with Bum.

This is very interesting, indeed. Now that you mentioned it, I've kinda wondered, f it's really all about release from the abuse Sangwoo received from his father, and he loved his mother as he says, why unleash his anger against women? The fat dude in Sangwoo's circle of friends is just as much of an a**hole as the girl Ji Eun, yet it was her he chose to kill. He even said, back when he was threatening to kill Bum, that he hadn't killed a man since his father... so the old guy he seduced and brought home was his first male victim since his father... And Sangwoo also said he used to have nightmares about his mother screaming at him angrily, which have somehow gotten better now that Bum is there.
This is why I think, there has to be more into his targeting of women than just the release of vengeance and pent up anger. As many have suggested, I think he may have been trying to find his mother's replacement, and killed the girls once he realized they acted more "like his father" and not "like his mother".
Unfortunately, I also think Sangwoo, for some reason or other, also killed his mother... and that's why he kept hearing her "angry screams at him" at night. If that's true, then not even "acting like his mother" or being her "replacement" would be an absolute guarantee that he won't get angry or sick of Bum for some reason or other, and kill him.
But I admit this is just speculation at this point...

Personally, i think he decided to kill jieun because she was talking crap on his wife (bum), though it could be debated that he'd been planning to kill her for a while as she was already into Sangwoo when Bum first saw her and she only started talking smack on Bum once she met him.

Also, as far as him not killing many guys i think it's a very simple explanation, his sexuality. Sangwoo is not gay as seen when he goes after the gay guy and talks about how disgusted he was, especially when the guy tried to get him to give him a blowjob. Sangwoo targets women specifically because he uses sex/intimacy to lure victims in as seen with literally EVERY one of his victims shown in the manga. I realize this sounds like a weird statement coming from me as i've been saying that he is in love with Bum, but it's actually not weird if you think about it, sexuality is extremely complex. I believe Sangwoo fell in love with Bum, not men in general, Bum is the exception.

His choice of victims has always been females. We haven't really been given any concrete information why though. Although we can hypothesize that the reason is related to his mother. This is because the females he targets more or less resembles his mother. The victims resemble, more or less, some facial features of his mother. Jieun for example, has a mole and dark brown hair. Sangwoo's mother has a mole and dark brown hair.

I'm not entailing that he kills only the women for release of negative feelings. What I was implying is that when Sangwoo experienced his first kill, he might have felt some kind of relief, that the essence of killing itself gives him some form of relief.

My theory as to why he targeted the old man at the gay bar, is that during that time Sangwoo was 'testing the waters' perhaps? Maybe it was right about that time that he realized that he found Bum sexually attractive. Because he was able to 'get hard' because of a man.

Sangwoo loves being the superior male (although this is more of my hunch-opinion than anything else hehehe) he might have adapted this because of his father. His father had showed him that being superior equates to having power. So when the old man pushed Sangwoo's head, urging Sangwoo to give him a blow job. Perhaps to Sangwoo, that is a threat to his superiority and it pissed him off. He didn't like being inferior because maybe it reminds him of his experiences of his past wherein he and his mother are inferior to their 'superior' (the father)

You have an interesting insight about about the Bum/mother replacement. I would also like to input some of my insights regarding that later. I need to perform an experimentation for my thesis right now. So I might reply a bit later, when I am a bit more free. :)

Your demisexual!Sangwoo theory is very interesting. In a way, I see your point. However, I personally think he chose that old man just to 'test the waters'. Check the response I gave @Me if you're interested :)

I have re-read this response. And you do have a point, until we are given any indication by Koogi that the affection/feelings Sangwoo displays is fake, then we shouldn't very strongly lean on it being fake. In a way, I support your claims also. The feelings of Sangwoo seems to be genuine, although those feelings coexist within the pit of the bad stuff (abuse, manipulation etc) like I replied to @Fallust

The biggest problem I have with saying the things Sangwoo were out of love is because of the ambiguous intent Sangwoo had. In the first couple of chapters I believe Sangwoo decided to keep Bum around instead of killing him because he found Bum to be interesting. There are a lot of factors that caused Sangwoo to treat Bum differently from his typical victims so I think any affection Sangwoo showed Bum early on was manipulation. I think that Sangwoo kept Bum around to try to understand Bum a bit better and possibly for entertainment. Sangwoo said himself that he had something he wanted to confirm in Bum. Because Sangwoo was putting Bum through a series of tests I can’t say if any of those actions were out of love or if Sangwoo was just playing with him.

Now if we want to talk about the physical intimacy between Bum and Sangwoo those were done from arousal and sexual attraction. Arousal/sexual attraction and love can come together at the same time but do not necessarily have to. The first two times we see Sangwoo aroused was during the period he was testing Bum. I think the first time Sangwoo made advances towards Bum, he did so as a test to see what to what extent Bum loved him. When Sangwoo later allowed Bum to give him oral, I think it was so Sangwoo could understand the cause of his own arousal from before. Pretty sure Sangwoo was not sexually attracted to Bum at that point, he’s said some pretty homophobic remarks to Bum about his sexuality, and that is why he was shocked by his arousal in the situation (the blushing scene). I think what arouses Sangwoo is Bum’s submissiveness to him. Sangwoo loves to feel superior . Sangwoo’s lust for submission, is could also supported by the erection Sangwoo had while choking Bum in chapter 9(?). You said Sangwoo “came” after the finger biting but I don’t think he ejaculated or had an orgasm. I thought the grunt was more so from the slight pain from Bum suddenly biting him.

I think Sangwoo demonstrates his selfishness a lot in chapter 14. He didn’t stop making Bum wear women’s clothes. He bought Bum a change of clothes so that he could take him out in public for his later plans. While inside the house, there was no need for Bum to wear men’s clothes. Sangwoo needed to take Bum out to meet his friends and having him in women’s clothing wouldn’t be acceptable. I even saw Sangwoo as being a bit selfish and controlling during the bathroom bj scene.

Let’s just say our disagreement is just a matter of seeing things from a different perspective. Neither of us are necessarily wrong but I’d like more proof that Sangwoo loves Bum. (Really wish Koogi would give us scenes where we can see what Sangwoo is thinking but oh well…) Sangwoo has undoubtedly grown increasingly attached to Bum but right now I can’t call it love.

Thanks for putting your thoughts in such clear words. I agree with you so much...

I can't say that i can see Bum's submissiveness as a reasonable counterargument to my "its love" theory, if it was Sangwoo just being sexually attracted and not in love because of submissiveness then any one of his victims would suffice, they all beg him to let them live and even say they'll do whatever he wants (jieun being the most recent example saying exactly this). If all of these scenes were explained off by sexual arousal due to submissivesness then wouldn't it make more sense for him to be with a woman? It is heavily implied that Sangwoo is heterosexual since he sleeps with plenty of women that we see, but the one time he kills a man he doesn't have sex with him so why out of all his submissive victims would Bum be the one that trumps them all? Wouldn't that be love? and in that sense aren't you arguing my point?

I think the time of submissiveness in this case is the type of submissiveness Sangwoo saw in his mother, the battered wife, and not the occasional begging, crying and and making of empty promises the victims did to persuade Sangwoo not to harm them... It's a different type of "naturalized" submissiveness, I think, resulting from years of abuse in people who're already used to the abuse and have resigned to it, who're already, in that sense, "broken". It's very different from the occassional, desperately faked pleas and empty promises Sangwoo managed to get from his victims in between their insults, bargains and death threats. Sangwoo would only have been able to get that from each of his other victims after years of keeping them in that basement, provided he managed not to lose his patience and kill them before it. With Bum, he didn't have to do much because Bum was already broken from years of abuse from his uncle and other bad experiences.

So...it's love?

You're basically bringing up my point from my response to jaz just now, that Sangwoo favors Bum's Submissiveness over that of any other victim, only you're giving a reason as to why. Are you saying you agree with me now? that Sangwoo definitely seems to be in love with Bum in his own way? Or does Sangwoo favoring Bum in literally every situation we've seen so far still not convince you? He literally SPARED bum after bum tried to escape from him (during the "i'm leaving" scene) and he said, and i quote, "let's be together forever" when he realized that Bum hadn't betrayed him and ran while the cop was searching his house. If we're taking that sentence for face value, it is literally canon. I really don't know what else you need...

Well, if it's a power-play in that sense it's an aspect in a relationship between two people that develops independently from the presence or absence of love: it may overlap with love or it may not. It may as well happen between two people who claim to love each other (or who loved each other at some point) just as it may also happen between two people who don't love each other.

And how exactly would it be a power play exactly? In what scene specifically do you see Bum challenging Sangwoo's authority? You bringing up power play seems kind of off course.

I'd like you to consider what it means to only be sexually attracted to one person as well. Since that seems to be your argument, that all the "love" scenes i described were just Sangwoo testing his sexuality with bum, discovering that he's sexually attracted to bum and then acting off that sexual attraction. You're saying that he's not in love, but in lust. I realize you didn't directly say that he's ONLY attracted to Bum, but we can assume so based on the the insight you've given us on the scenes that i (still) believe are love scenes. You state that the blushing scene is him blushing because he realizes that he's sexually attracted to a man for the first time, if blushing is the indicator for sexual attraction in Sangwoo then we can assume he hasn't had any lust for any of his victims as he hasn't blushed even once during any of their attempts to turn him on or during sex with them which would seem to point towards him ONLY having lust for Bum. What kind of feeling would make him ONLY lust after one person?

Just because Bum is acting submissive to him, doesn't mean Sangwoo can keep controlling, abusing and manipulating him as he likes. It doesn't work that way. Even power-play and BDSM have rules. There are clear distinctions between BDSM and abuse. If he abuses his power as the "dominant" party, it doesn't matter if he "loves" him, he's still an abusive bastard.

Now you're just going off into territory we weren't talking about.

Also, how much the "Sub" can take from the "Dom" is solely dependent on them... you can't assume that Bum is dissatisfied with the way Sangwoo is treating him romantically just to further your point (which honestly doesn't seem to strong at this point). The ONLY thing we know right now (from bits of Bums thoughts on Sangwoo) is that he is scared of Sangwoo killing him. He actually seems to enjoy it when Sangwoo treats him nicely as seen in the concert scene when Sangwoo is singing and Bum literally says: "the warmth of that moment is still present. Hug me and don't leave me..." Honestly, that entire scene can be used as an example to further my point, he's saying that despite realizing that Sangwoo is a killer and damaged he still loves him.

What are you talking about?
If it's consensual it's sado-masochism, if it's nonconsensual, it's sexual violence. But they're both originated from a similar principle: Sexual attraction to a lover's acts/shows of submission.

That's the point, he likes it when Sangwoo treats him NICELY. He doesn't like it when Sangwoo hurts him, forces him to do his household chores or forces him to watch or participate when Sangwoo seduces and later kills someone. Bum is not exactly sane, but he doesn't like pain and he doesn't seem to like violence or get off on seeing Sangwoo's violent either. He gets off on NICE gestures from Sangwoo, yet Sangwoo's treating him like an ultra hardcore "Sub" that can be taught to get off on the violent things Sangwoo does or on same kind of things Sangwoo gets off on.

Once again, you're assuming things. You're right that he's not happy about these things, but MY point was that that doesn't mean that he is dissatisfied and i backed that with the fact that he doesn't want to leave Sangwoo and the fact that he still likes it when he's treated nice BECAUSE he's still in love.

"He doesn't like it when Sangwoo hurts him, forces him to do his household chores or forces him to watch or participate when Sangwoo seduces and later kills someone." you said this just now, but can you point out where Bum says this? If not then you're just making up facts, making up a reality that doesn't exist. The only thing that Bum says in those scenes is "this is crazy" or "i have to escape" (because, as i said, bum's ONLY problem with sangwoo is that he's scared to die.). Why are you assuming that because he likes to be treated nicely that he doesn't like being treated badly? maybe he doesn't mind acting like Sangwoo's housewife? He's cooking for him, cleaning for him and ends up blowing him. why would he hate that situation with someone he loves?

Since when "being unhappy" is not the same as "being dissatisfied"? Has it never occurred to you anyone may still have to leave their love even though they love them? Do you really think mutual love is an absolute guarantee for anything? ...Have you never yourself experienced conflicted feelings about anything or anyone, ever in your life?

The entire point of my last probably 3 replies is that in this ^ reply that you wrote you assume that Sangwoo IS abusing his power as the dominant partner. You assume that Bum isn't content with how things are romantically between the two of them, all you do is assume, you don't give any examples or even try to back your point. The only example you've given is that Bum is scared of Sangwoo, which i've already replied to in that Bum isn't scared of Sangwoo himself, he loves sangwoo despite all his flaws as stated in the concert scene, he's scared that Sangwoo is going to kill him someday which actually explains all his reactions towards the killings as he's just responding with shock, not disgust. I can further my claim of Bum not being disgusted by the killings in that Bum kills someone himself without outside influence and feels nothing.

They've never been the same... you can be unhappy and satisfied at the same time. Have you never read a manga that had a sad ending, but you were ok with it?

Also, don't misconstrue my words, what i said was that he "isn't happy with these things" not that he "is unhappy" as a whole. You're either not understanding what i'm saying or you're trying to manipulate the conversation and its kind of amusing.

I feel like we're just gonna keep talking in circles that's why I said neither of us are wrong and that it depends on the perspective. I would like more proof that Sangwoo has done everything out of love and that none of it was manipulation. I'm waiting for season 2 for that proof. I will not label Sangwoo's attachment to Bum as love until then.

The only proof you need is when Sangwoo says "lets be together forever" to bum. If you take that for face value its canon. I understand if you want to back out of the debate, feel free.

That's the only proof you need, I however would like more. Sorry, I wasn't too interested in debating this to begin with :/

really? but you gave such an in depth analysis of your point of view on Bum and Sangwoo's situation: "or that to happen Sangwoo would have to seriously piss off Bum and withdrawal all physical advances towards him. I can't see that happening because Sangwoo wants to keep Bum around. Still uncertain of what to call the attachment Sangwoo has for Bum but I think he' continues to be intimate with Bum because that's what Bum wants. By doing things like kissing, saying he loves Bum and allowing Bum to play out some of his fantasies, Sangwoo is not only ensuring Bum will stay but he's also feeding into Bum's obsession. Bit of a spoiler here for those who haven't seen 19. From the flashback we see that Bum often misinterprets simple kindness as love. Sangwoo however has gone past showing Bum acts of simple kindness and does things someone in a relationship might do. Right now Bum might think that Sangwoo truly loves him and he's not going to suddenly snap out of it. I think to a degree Bum knows Sangwoo is manipulating him. He knows the true Sangwoo is abusive and that is not something he should accept. But he also is too obsessed over Sangwoo to let the abuse affect him. Additionally from the flashback, I'm assuming Bum started stalking because he longs for closeness to someone. Killing Sangwoo would cease that closeness. Right now I cant see Bum killing Sangwoo as it would end the relationship they have. Who knows how season 2 will shake things up though" I guess from this i just assumed you were wanting to debate, my bad : /

That and this: "The biggest problem I have with saying the things Sangwoo were out of love is because of the ambiguous intent Sangwoo had. In the first couple of chapters I believe Sangwoo decided to keep Bum around instead of killing him because he found Bum to be interesting. There are a lot of factors that caused Sangwoo to treat Bum differently from his typical victims so I think any affection Sangwoo showed Bum early on was manipulation. I think that Sangwoo kept Bum around to try to understand Bum a bit better and possibly for entertainment. Sangwoo said himself that he had something he wanted to confirm in Bum. Because Sangwoo was putting Bum through a series of tests I can’t say if any of those actions were out of love or if Sangwoo was just playing with him.

Now if we want to talk about the physical intimacy between Bum and Sangwoo those were done from arousal and sexual attraction. Arousal/sexual attraction and love can come together at the same time but do not necessarily have to. The first two times we see Sangwoo aroused was during the period he was testing Bum. I think the first time Sangwoo made advances towards Bum, he did so as a test to see what to what extent Bum loved him. When Sangwoo later allowed Bum to give him oral, I think it was so Sangwoo could understand the cause of his own arousal from before. Pretty sure Sangwoo was not sexually attracted to Bum at that point, he’s said some pretty homophobic remarks to Bum about his sexuality, and that is why he was shocked by his arousal in the situation (the blushing scene). I think what arouses Sangwoo is Bum’s submissiveness to him. Sangwoo loves to feel superior . Sangwoo’s lust for submission, is could also supported by the erection Sangwoo had while choking Bum in chapter 9(?). You said Sangwoo “came” after the finger biting but I don’t think he ejaculated or had an orgasm. I thought the grunt was more so from the slight pain from Bum suddenly biting him.

I think Sangwoo demonstrates his selfishness a lot in chapter 14. He didn’t stop making Bum wear women’s clothes. He bought Bum a change of clothes so that he could take him out in public for his later plans. While inside the house, there was no need for Bum to wear men’s clothes. Sangwoo needed to take Bum out to meet his friends and having him in women’s clothing wouldn’t be acceptable. I even saw Sangwoo as being a bit selfish and controlling during the bathroom bj scene.

Let’s just say our disagreement is just a matter of seeing things from a different perspective. Neither of us are necessarily wrong but I’d like more proof that Sangwoo loves Bum. (Really wish Koogi would give us scenes where we can see what Sangwoo is thinking but oh well…) Sangwoo has undoubtedly grown increasingly attached to Bum but right now I can’t call it love." message made me assume you were wanting to debate but i guess not. Well, thanks for the good time though : )

Yeah, that was my response to the hypothetical Bum getting saved situation, I feel like there I was more addressing my opinion on Sangwoo's love from Bum's perspective. I believe that Bum thinks Sangwoo loves him regardless of if that is true or not. We're not talking about that though. The "does Sangwoo truly love Bum" question is something I wasn't really looking to debate, as I'm kinda on the fence about it. I even said there I was "uncertain of what to call the attachment Sangwoo has for Bum". Sorry for giving the wrong impression.

Oh no~ nothing to be sorry about. How about the other reply you made directly to me after "a few" hours of school? The response you said to 'me's' and my debate after i messaged you saying "ok, whenever you're ready." It really seemed like you were wanting in on the debate, like i said it seems to be my misunderstanding so its all good. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

I really liked that season of american horror story and felt kinda sad that him and violet didn't get together because he honestly seemed to love her. I KNOW he raped her mom and killed people, but i'm talking about intentions here, he NEVER meant to hurt her and only wanted to protect her. Satisfying ending though.

Then what is this?
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/c004/37/
He says he feels like he's in a cage.
And this:
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/c004/38/
He says to himself: "Are you going to leave your life in Sangwoo's hands?"
And here:
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/c004/39/
He says "I want to go back!"
Then this says how he started acting the way he thought Sangwoo wanted him to act, just so he could bide his time and prepare a plan to escape:
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/c004/63/
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/c004/64/
Sangwoo's attitude becomes nicer during this chapter, yet he talks about how he's not happy with the "happy routine" and wants to break it:
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/c004/77/
Really, all of that chapter is proof that Bum's plan was never to renounce to his own freedom in order to make Sangwoo happy.

Yeah, I agree. He killed the gay couple before he even met Violet, and he raped Violet's mother at the beginning of the season, when he still didn't know Violet that well. Everything else that he did after (harming Violet's bully Leah the drug-addict, Killing the enactment fanatical killer wannabes and then the plague exterminator, drugging Violet's dad and attempting to kill the teenage boy that came to live at the house after the Harmons) were all his insane attempts to protect her.
If Violet hadn't turned out to be already dead and he'd actually been trying to get Violet to kill herself for real, though, he would have been selfish like Hayden (and Sangwoo) and I would have felt no sympathy for him after Violet dumped his crazy ass.

Literally all of these scenes are explained away by Bum being scared Sangwoo is going to kill him, they in no way prove that Bum isn't still in love with him. What is your point in showing these scenes? I already said that Bum is unhappy that he feels he might be killed by sangwoo, but that he is satisfied with how Sangwoo treats him romantically (the sweet parts) and as such doesn't want to leave. He is unhappy, but satisfied with their relationship and nothing you point out can possibly debunk this.

Read Koogi's notes in the last post, you were 100% wrong.

I hope the people who kept acting all patronizing of others now will read the author's own notes in the last chapter that's been posted, and realize they were completely wrong, and take this chance to grow up a little.
I'm only doing this because of some posters here who like to terrorize other posters here and in other stories' comments sections for not thinking the same way as them, offering what they believe is 100% logic arguments but actually being 100% rude in a sickening psuedo-intelwctual manner, when the facts prove them wrong, and then continue acting like pompous asses, doing the same thing again and again in every story, never learning their lesson. It's time to stop acting like pompous asses and persecuting people with "pseudo logic" now. Take this chance to learn to be humble. You're not the one "in the right" nor better than other people just because people stop arguing with you because they got sick of your bulsshit and your inflated ego.

i got nightmares and tons of chills reading chap 18