if you ship these two, i mean, every man to their own and all, but sangwoo is seriously fucked up and is incapable of loving properly. it's impossible for a healthy relationship to come out of this at the end because of all the emotional, mental, and physical scarring sangwoo has put yoonbum through in the last 13 chapters and all the more that are sure to come. yoonbum is messed up too!! whether it be from sangwoo's torturing or already existing illnesses (he stalked sangwoo for years and broke into his house ffs), he's going to be really messed up. he's caught in this highly abusive relationship and if that doesn't fuck someone up idk what does. my point is that it's a digusting ship and it apalls me that people still ship it. yes, there have been moments where i've thought, "awe, that's cute," but you have to remind yourself that that's!! a!! lie!! [this part has been deleted] anyway, thanks for reading this. i would love if you would post your opinion even if it's unpopular just so we can have a friendly debate about it or something. - edit: lmao i wonder who disliked this edit 2: i apologize for the name-calling. thank you to those who pointed it out, i immediately removed it. edit 3: this, again, is only my opinion that i wanted to share. i have no intention of hating on those who do somewhat ship it because, as i mentioned, even i awwed at some parts. i think that it's just because it's a gay ship that people are shipping it, because you wouldn't see many people awwing if yoonbum were a woman. edit 4: also, i'm mainly speaking of the people shipping it who interpret the abuse as love and romance!! i've seen people saying that chapter 13 was romantic and stuff when it legitimately involved sangwoo muttering insanely about how he was going to find and kill yoonbum. he just doesn't want yoonbum to leave because he doesn't want to lose his plaything. he only reacted like he did to yoonbum missing because he loves manipulating and toying with people but the fact that this boy could toy and manipulate HIM completely flew over his head and he HATED it. it's the kind of insanity that comes with the hunter becoming the hunted thing- the disbelief just driving him off the edge. edit 5: i changed the title to "yoonbum and sangwoo's relationship isn't romantic" because before it sounded like i was imposing my opinion on everyone who ships it and i didn't want to sound that way. ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶ --- note: this topic was made for FRIENDLY debates, so please no rude speech or making oneself seem higher than another. because we're all probably teenagers that are laying in bed in a dark room on our computers who haven't seen the daylight in weeks :]
I've read KS and will probably read the next chaps as well to only see how it ends.but i couldnt be agree more with you.. Its so twisted.. Sangwoo is a murderer..i hve no idea why people go all "awww" about sangwoo or when they see At Bum terrified face.. Maannnnn.. I wonder what kind of reaction those people gve if Bum is a Woman?? Will they still "awwww" ing ??
I agree with everything except the part where you start calling people ''immature'' for shipping it for the sake of it. The fact that you took this WAY too seriously is already beyond me. The only reason i even like this manga is because: FINALLY something NOT the same old boring ass story.
I've read KS and will probably read the next chaps as well to only see how it ends.but i couldnt be agree more with you.. Its so twisted.. Sangwoo is a murderer..i hve no idea why people go all "awww" about san... Nananina
ikr! and that's actually a good point, i hadn't thought of that before. i'm sure if bum was a woman no one would even read the manhwa. that just goes to show how twisted society's views on gay relationships are and how they're fetishized so much. it also shows society's views on males being abuse victims.
I agree with everything except the part where you start calling people ''immature'' for shipping it for the sake of it. The fact that you took this WAY too seriously is already beyond me. The only reason i even... ChanelHaiikyuu
mm, i agree, it was probably immature of myself to start name-calling. thank you for pointing this out.
Lol, caring about a dislike. People can have an opinion on whether they like your post or not. Normal people see the difference between what is a normal relationship in reality and a unhealthy relationship in fiction, but they can still like it because they know it is fiction and it just makes up for an interesting story. Not every fictional couple has to be super healthy, the dysfunction is what makes for an interesting dynamic and the reason why people enjoy it. That doesn't mean that they want it in real life.
ikr! and that's actually a good point, i hadn't thought of that before. i'm sure if bum was a woman no one would even read the manhwa. that just goes to show how twisted society's views on gay relationships are... aaaasher
Ya well because i really wonder about "what if its a straight pair?" For example.. This also couple from fantasy world..Also not real..There're people adoring And ship Joker/Harley despite Joker is such a psycopath And also kill/torturing people..but harley still love him and people Awwww ing n ship them..the diferent is i dont think Joker ever breaking harley Legs/slicing her/make her doing chores/make her terrified to death?? But what if Joker exactly did the same to harley what sangwoo did to Bum..will the ship still sailing?? Maybe.. Will they say Joker is Goal?? Or still romantizing them? Or will people go batshit bout joker is a woman abuser even if its just fantasy and not to make fun of it because it might happen in real live to a woman? hmm thats why im curious..
Ya well because i really wonder about "what if its a straight pair?" For example.. This also couple from fantasy world..Also not real..There're people adoring And ship Joker/Harley despite Joker is such a psyco... Nananina
The joker has definitely thrown her out of a window before.
People can romanticize absolutely anything in fiction, or dinosaur erotica would not exist (see, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Taken-T-Rex-Dinosaur-Erotica-Christie-ebook/dp/B00FI9JFFO). It's fine to point out that the relationship is unhealthy, and I understand not shipping it--but as long as the people who do ship it know the difference between fiction and real life, they can do what they want.
"Should" can be kind of problematic when applied to fantasy. At least, I think so. Let me ask this: What is the effect of people romanticizing abusive and twisted relationships if those attitudes never carry over to real life? I agree that in real life, such attitudes are harmful on many levels, but if it does stay as a fantasy, does it hurt anyone if I have naughty thoughts about a villain like Loki? (Sorry, The Joker's not my type.)
I know stories and popular media carry cultural attitudes that may effect us all--but the meaning we create from stories is rarely literal, and story elements (and fantasies) can have more than one function. I see value in discussing such topics, but once we cross from discussion and looking at real life effects (if there are any) into what people "should" think or feel, it seems kind of restrictive to me, and I think there is a danger of black and white thinking.
I've read KS and will probably read the next chaps as well to only see how it ends.but i couldnt be agree more with you.. Its so twisted.. Sangwoo is a murderer..i hve no idea why people go all "awww" about san... Nananina
I agree. I honestly wouldn't even be able to read this if Bum was a woman. I take this comic very seriously and like the dialogue the author creates about mental health issues. I found it very interesting that the victim being a male changed how I experienced this comic. It is still terrifying, but so much less nerve wracking than it would be to read if it were of a woman. It takes me back to watching the movie The Call and how distraught people were in the theater. My stomach couldn't calm down and at some points I was like, idk how I can make it through the rest of this, I mean I was really full of adrenaline and wanting the victim to escape. The man next to me had his head in his hands and the woman with him was having to rub his back. I wonder how different watching movies like that would be if I were a man though and didn't have to face the reality of this is something I am in danger of. In real life, you don't hear this happening to men. It happens overwhelmingly to women and isn't even rare. This story has really opened my eyes though to how it would definitely be easier for most men to feel a lot less pressure watching and hearing these real life stories than it is for women. What I like about this comic is that I don't have to feel sick seeing myself as the victim, because we aren't. When it is a woman, women naturally put themselves in that position, but with this comic a lot of that pressure is taken off of us.
ikr! and that's actually a good point, i hadn't thought of that before. i'm sure if bum was a woman no one would even read the manhwa. that just goes to show how twisted society's views on gay relationships are... aaaasher
Completely agree. But I think it has even more to say though. I think this comic honestly is amazing in the dialogues it is creating and how much it is making us all think about social and psychological issues.
I think it even goes much deeper into the roots of why bl content was even created. Women feel relief of not having to see ourselves as the victims when we read bl. We have the relief of not holding ourselves to standards the male in the comic would be held to if they were a woman. Its very interesting and an in depth analysis would probably say a lot about what has been and is still being done to women psychologically in our male dominated societies and ways of thinking. I mean, even in the ads just created in the 1940s you can see how we have barely evolved. Seriously, everybody look up ads from the 1940s. They encourage violence against wives to keep them in place. It is very scary and very real. We try to forget our history and believe it is behind us, but it still influences out societies and we are still trying to undo this damage. Bl is a good example of outlets women create to deal with the pressure they've felt. It isn't always healthy either, a lot of bl is not progressive and is very damaging to gay men as well as women.
Completely agree. But I think it has even more to say though. I think this comic honestly is amazing in the dialogues it is creating and how much it is making us all think about social and psychological issues.... Viira
I understand your position, but do you have any proof that there is damage coming from BL specifically, or is it merely that it may reflect some problematic elements in real life? Are you sure that you have established causation--or are you perhaps inferring more than the facts can support?
People can romanticize absolutely anything in fiction, or dinosaur erotica would not exist (see, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Taken-T-Rex-Dinosaur-Erotica-Christie-ebook/dp/B00FI9JFFO). It's fine to point out th... Anoni Grrl
i mean, i understand f you ship it and ill realize that it's wrong (like ereri i suppose). idk. i feel like there are two sides of the argument and that both of them have their flaws and strengths. thank you for speaking your opinion though <3
I understand your position, but do you have any proof that there is damage coming from BL specifically, or is it merely that it may reflect some problematic elements in real life? Are you sure that you have est... Anoni Grrl
Yes, the proof isn't even hard to find. Look up documentaries about living as a gay person in Japan if you want. I have seen videos and blog posts coming from gay men who felt uncomfortable with the way they were treated by women that read and like bl. They have had their pictures taken without permission and been asked invasive questions by women who like bl or have called themselves fujoshi and bl fans. Also from documentaries I've seen about being gay in Japan, a group of people went to look at many different things concerning gay relationships in Japan, like clubs and bars, and even discussed bl and fujoshi. They actually meet up with self proclaimed fujoshi and the way these straight women acted and their thoughts towards gay men were truly bothersome and messed up. They completely fetishied gay men and gay relationships. I've also read various websites trying to get more info on the lgbt communities in Japan because I have wanted to visit Japan and these things are important to me, and the general consensus of actual gay people is that the overwhelming majority of women that read bl do not treat real gay people properly.
Theres also the fact alone that the bl genre is created and caters to specifically to straight women as their demographic (though they are not the only people that read it, I know) and its historical roots and origins are tied heavily into men forcing themselves onto other men and lots of rape which you still find highly prevalent in the yaoi and bl genre.
i mean, i understand f you ship it and ill realize that it's wrong (like ereri i suppose). idk. i feel like there are two sides of the argument and that both of them have their flaws and strengths. thank you fo... aaaasher
Thanks for not being mad. :) I don't actually ship this particular couple. I just don't like blanket statements that condemn others for their fantasies. I think there should be no rules to fantasy, as long as people know the difference between fantasy and real life.
You have every right to discuss the aspects of the story you find disturbing. And to disagree with people's posts. It's just that I think people sometimes simplify the issue of how fiction influences people and may be quick to draw unwarranted assumptions.
Thanks for not being mad. :) I don't actually ship this particular couple. I just don't like blanket statements that condemn others for their fantasies. I think there should be no rules to fantasy, as long as p... Anoni Grrl
yeah, no problem. i'm all for debating and seeing the other sides of each argument, haha. what concerns me is the people who are interpreting the abuse as romance and overlooking the psychological aspect of this manhwa. thanks for not being afraid to post. though.
Lol, caring about a dislike. People can have an opinion on whether they like your post or not. Normal people see the difference between what is a normal relationship in reality and a unhealthy relationship in f... @Anonymous
i just made this topic for the debating to see what other people thought and to get insight into what the other opinions are really made of, that's all. i didn't create it to hate or for anyone to recieve hate. and at the beginning i said every man to their own [opinion]. thank you.
yeah, no problem. i'm all for debating and seeing the other sides of each argument, haha. what concerns me is the people who are interpreting the abuse as romance and overlooking the psychological aspect of thi... aaaasher
Completely agree, wish you could like replies haha
Yes, the proof isn't even hard to find. Look up documentaries about living as a gay person in Japan if you want. I have seen videos and blog posts coming from gay men who felt uncomfortable with the way they we... Viira
Th problems of gay people living in japan are not *caused* by BL or yaoi, though I understand the fans have a bad rep in many circles. The problems are cause by how people act in real life. With all respect to the feelings of people ins elected documentaries, that's not how causation works. You describe a social and cultural problem (one that happens in other places too). But it's not stories that *cause* it--it's the fact that some people Japanese society feel they can treat others this way because they happen to be males in same sex relationships.
Straight men often fertilizes women in same sex relationships too--and this may or may not lead to inappropriate behavior. But it isn't the "lesbian" porn made for straight men that makes some men act that way--those men would probably be inappropriate to many women in any situation where they have the power and social sanction to do so. It's about what society finds acceptable and how we treat people in real life.
In the US, the term "fag hag" originally meant women who liked hitting on gay men. Some use it ironically or even affectionately, but at it's heart, the term meant creepy women who pursue gay the way a "dirty old man" pursues young women. This happens without BL or Yaoi influencing the "hag". The problem is that US society (and many others) does not have enough respect for people's personal boundaries in real life, not that people have bad fantasies.
I think the answer is to change what is consider acceptable behavior by people in real life to tell others that this sort of thing is not cool (whenever it is safe to do so). Perhaps there may be a need to examine the roots of how we treat sex and sexuality--but the focus needs to be on real life behaviors. For most people, fantasies do not cause direct copying of behaviors--behaviors are rooted in individual social skills and rules about what is considered socially acceptable in various situations.
BTW, rape tropes are also prevalent in Bara, which is primarily by gay men for gay men. And gay men can get handy with each other in real life too. Some gay men will inappropriately touch women too, and claim it's okay because the man is gay--ignoring the fact that the problem is that any person should have the right not to be touched unless they want to be whether it is sexual or not. So, what I am saying is that the issue is rooted n social rules, not fantasy, and solving the problem lies in changing the social rules in real life.
Th problems of gay people living in japan are not *caused* by BL or yaoi, though I understand the fans have a bad rep in many circles. The problems are cause by how people act in real life. With all respect to ... Anoni Grrl
LOL, I mean fetishisize, not fertilize. Bloody auto-spell. But it adds humor. (⌒▽⌒)
Th problems of gay people living in japan are not *caused* by BL or yaoi, though I understand the fans have a bad rep in many circles. The problems are cause by how people act in real life. With all respect to ... Anoni Grrl
I just....don't understand why you so badly want to deny and defend that people are reading this, misinterpreting it, and fetishizing it in unhealthy ways. No, not everyone is. The story isn't wrong for existing. The story is not problematic, but a lot of people reading it ARE. Thats honestly all that needs to be said. You can bring up causation all you want but that doesn't change the fact that condoning people doing this is harmful. Nobody is saying its ONLY damaging for people to like reading rape fantasies (as you bring up in your last paragraph). For a lot of people it can be helpful and they can handle it responsibly, but the matter here is that there are people that are handling it wrong, people are pointing it out, and then others are condemning people for pointing it out. Honestly, what you are arguing isn't what people are arguing here so idk why you keep trying to turn it into that. People are arguing that there are people not treating this story right and that aren't mature enough for this very mature topic.
Also, how can you even say all that stuff that has literally nothing to do with anything being discussed. Kind of seems like you're trying to manipulate the information to support arguing something completely irrelevant. But idk, maybe to you it makes sense, but it does not seem relevant to go into what you're going into.
Also I did not say the problems faced by gay people in Japan are created by bl fans. But some problems they face are created EXCLUSIVELY by bl fans. People that hate gay people aren't harassing gay people in the same ways bl fans are. People that dislike or discourage gay relationships aren't the ones going up to them and asking strangers to tell them about their sex lives. It is the fact that people DONT call out bl fans for their inappropriate behavior or point out flaws in their ways of thinking and actively discourage others from doing so, in SOME cases. Nothing I am saying is applicable to all, as you seem to misunderstand, I just want to clear that up.
None of anything I was arguing was about people having "bad fantasies". You are arguing a completely different point than me and continue to do so.
I just....don't understand why you so badly want to deny and defend that people are reading this, misinterpreting it, and fetishizing it in unhealthy ways. No, not everyone is. The story isn't wrong for existin... Viira
not to intrude on your debate, but i've seen you two on multiple threads arguing and while both of you have good points, you aren't talking about the same things. i would suggest just agreeing to disagree because the topic has shifted from killing stalking to how gay men are treated in japan (not a bad thing to discuss, but the argument is going nowhere) thank you both for sharing your opinion s though <3
not to intrude on your debate, but i've seen you two on multiple threads arguing and while both of you have good points, you aren't talking about the same things. i would suggest just agreeing to disagree becau... aaaasher
I agree and thats what I've been saying. We aren't even arguing about the same thing lol
I agree and thats what I've been saying. We aren't even arguing about the same thing lol Viira
I will agree to disagree. It is off topic. But just know I'm dying inside to explain to you why I think what you are saying fits into what I said. (●￣(ｴ)￣●)
I will agree to disagree. It is off topic. But just know I'm dying inside to explain to you why I think what you are saying fits into what I said. (●￣(ｴ)￣●) Anoni Grrl
if you ship these two, i mean, every man to their own and all, but sangwoo is seriously fucked up and is incapable of loving properly. it's impossible for a healthy relationship to come out of this at the end because of all the emotional, mental, and physical scarring sangwoo has put yoonbum through in the last 13 chapters and all the more that are sure to come.
yoonbum is messed up too!! whether it be from sangwoo's torturing or already existing illnesses (he stalked sangwoo for years and broke into his house ffs), he's going to be really messed up. he's caught in this highly abusive relationship and if that doesn't fuck someone up idk what does.
my point is that it's a digusting ship and it apalls me that people still ship it. yes, there have been moments where i've thought, "awe, that's cute," but you have to remind yourself that that's!! a!! lie!! [this part has been deleted]
anyway, thanks for reading this. i would love if you would post your opinion even if it's unpopular just so we can have a friendly debate about it or something.
-
edit: lmao i wonder who disliked this
edit 2: i apologize for the name-calling. thank you to those who pointed it out, i immediately removed it.
edit 3: this, again, is only my opinion that i wanted to share. i have no intention of hating on those who do somewhat ship it because, as i mentioned, even i awwed at some parts. i think that it's just because it's a gay ship that people are shipping it, because you wouldn't see many people awwing if yoonbum were a woman.
edit 4: also, i'm mainly speaking of the people shipping it who interpret the abuse as love and romance!! i've seen people saying that chapter 13 was romantic and stuff when it legitimately involved sangwoo muttering insanely about how he was going to find and kill yoonbum. he just doesn't want yoonbum to leave because he doesn't want to lose his plaything. he only reacted like he did to yoonbum missing because he loves manipulating and toying with people but the fact that this boy could toy and manipulate HIM completely flew over his head and he HATED it. it's the kind of insanity that comes with the hunter becoming the hunted thing- the disbelief just driving him off the edge.
edit 5: i changed the title to "yoonbum and sangwoo's relationship isn't romantic" because before it sounded like i was imposing my opinion on everyone who ships it and i didn't want to sound that way. ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶
---
note: this topic was made for FRIENDLY debates, so please no rude speech or making oneself seem higher than another. because we're all probably teenagers that are laying in bed in a dark room on our computers who haven't seen the daylight in weeks :]
I've read KS and will probably read the next chaps as well to only see how it ends.but i couldnt be agree more with you.. Its so twisted.. Sangwoo is a murderer..i hve no idea why people go all "awww" about sangwoo or when they see
At Bum terrified face.. Maannnnn.. I wonder what kind of reaction those people gve if Bum is a Woman?? Will they still "awwww" ing ??
I agree with everything except the part where you start calling people ''immature'' for shipping it for the sake of it. The fact that you took this WAY too seriously is already beyond me. The only reason i even like this manga is because: FINALLY something NOT the same old boring ass story.
ikr! and that's actually a good point, i hadn't thought of that before. i'm sure if bum was a woman no one would even read the manhwa. that just goes to show how twisted society's views on gay relationships are and how they're fetishized so much. it also shows society's views on males being abuse victims.
I agree tbh. No idea why people like this ship. It's going to become the next Joker and Harley. I just know it. ┑(￣Д ￣)┍
mm, i agree, it was probably immature of myself to start name-calling. thank you for pointing this out.
yeah. i was never into the joker/harley fandoms but i know my fair share about them.
Lol, caring about a dislike. People can have an opinion on whether they like your post or not. Normal people see the difference between what is a normal relationship in reality and a unhealthy relationship in fiction, but they can still like it because they know it is fiction and it just makes up for an interesting story. Not every fictional couple has to be super healthy, the dysfunction is what makes for an interesting dynamic and the reason why people enjoy it. That doesn't mean that they want it in real life.
Ya well because i really wonder about "what if its a straight pair?" For example.. This also couple from fantasy world..Also not real..There're people adoring And ship Joker/Harley despite Joker is such a psycopath And also kill/torturing people..but harley still love him and people Awwww ing n ship them..the diferent is i dont think Joker ever breaking harley Legs/slicing her/make her doing chores/make her terrified to death??
But what if Joker exactly did the same to harley what sangwoo did to Bum..will the ship still sailing?? Maybe.. Will they say Joker is Goal?? Or still romantizing them? Or will people go batshit bout joker is a woman abuser even if its just fantasy and not to make fun of it because it might happen in real live to a woman? hmm thats why im curious..
The joker has definitely thrown her out of a window before.
People can romanticize absolutely anything in fiction, or dinosaur erotica would not exist (see, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Taken-T-Rex-Dinosaur-Erotica-Christie-ebook/dp/B00FI9JFFO). It's fine to point out that the relationship is unhealthy, and I understand not shipping it--but as long as the people who do ship it know the difference between fiction and real life, they can do what they want.
"Should" can be kind of problematic when applied to fantasy. At least, I think so. Let me ask this: What is the effect of people romanticizing abusive and twisted relationships if those attitudes never carry over to real life? I agree that in real life, such attitudes are harmful on many levels, but if it does stay as a fantasy, does it hurt anyone if I have naughty thoughts about a villain like Loki? (Sorry, The Joker's not my type.)
I know stories and popular media carry cultural attitudes that may effect us all--but the meaning we create from stories is rarely literal, and story elements (and fantasies) can have more than one function. I see value in discussing such topics, but once we cross from discussion and looking at real life effects (if there are any) into what people "should" think or feel, it seems kind of restrictive to me, and I think there is a danger of black and white thinking.
Ehehe Cmiiw..even so..she's still such a badass..
I completely agree with you
I agree. I honestly wouldn't even be able to read this if Bum was a woman. I take this comic very seriously and like the dialogue the author creates about mental health issues. I found it very interesting that the victim being a male changed how I experienced this comic. It is still terrifying, but so much less nerve wracking than it would be to read if it were of a woman. It takes me back to watching the movie The Call and how distraught people were in the theater. My stomach couldn't calm down and at some points I was like, idk how I can make it through the rest of this, I mean I was really full of adrenaline and wanting the victim to escape. The man next to me had his head in his hands and the woman with him was having to rub his back. I wonder how different watching movies like that would be if I were a man though and didn't have to face the reality of this is something I am in danger of.
In real life, you don't hear this happening to men. It happens overwhelmingly to women and isn't even rare. This story has really opened my eyes though to how it would definitely be easier for most men to feel a lot less pressure watching and hearing these real life stories than it is for women. What I like about this comic is that I don't have to feel sick seeing myself as the victim, because we aren't. When it is a woman, women naturally put themselves in that position, but with this comic a lot of that pressure is taken off of us.
Completely agree. But I think it has even more to say though. I think this comic honestly is amazing in the dialogues it is creating and how much it is making us all think about social and psychological issues.
I think it even goes much deeper into the roots of why bl content was even created. Women feel relief of not having to see ourselves as the victims when we read bl. We have the relief of not holding ourselves to standards the male in the comic would be held to if they were a woman. Its very interesting and an in depth analysis would probably say a lot about what has been and is still being done to women psychologically in our male dominated societies and ways of thinking. I mean, even in the ads just created in the 1940s you can see how we have barely evolved. Seriously, everybody look up ads from the 1940s. They encourage violence against wives to keep them in place. It is very scary and very real. We try to forget our history and believe it is behind us, but it still influences out societies and we are still trying to undo this damage. Bl is a good example of outlets women create to deal with the pressure they've felt. It isn't always healthy either, a lot of bl is not progressive and is very damaging to gay men as well as women.
I understand your position, but do you have any proof that there is damage coming from BL specifically, or is it merely that it may reflect some problematic elements in real life? Are you sure that you have established causation--or are you perhaps inferring more than the facts can support?
i mean, i understand f you ship it and ill realize that it's wrong (like ereri i suppose). idk. i feel like there are two sides of the argument and that both of them have their flaws and strengths. thank you for speaking your opinion though <3
Yes, the proof isn't even hard to find. Look up documentaries about living as a gay person in Japan if you want. I have seen videos and blog posts coming from gay men who felt uncomfortable with the way they were treated by women that read and like bl. They have had their pictures taken without permission and been asked invasive questions by women who like bl or have called themselves fujoshi and bl fans. Also from documentaries I've seen about being gay in Japan, a group of people went to look at many different things concerning gay relationships in Japan, like clubs and bars, and even discussed bl and fujoshi. They actually meet up with self proclaimed fujoshi and the way these straight women acted and their thoughts towards gay men were truly bothersome and messed up. They completely fetishied gay men and gay relationships. I've also read various websites trying to get more info on the lgbt communities in Japan because I have wanted to visit Japan and these things are important to me, and the general consensus of actual gay people is that the overwhelming majority of women that read bl do not treat real gay people properly.
Theres also the fact alone that the bl genre is created and caters to specifically to straight women as their demographic (though they are not the only people that read it, I know) and its historical roots and origins are tied heavily into men forcing themselves onto other men and lots of rape which you still find highly prevalent in the yaoi and bl genre.
Thanks for not being mad. :) I don't actually ship this particular couple. I just don't like blanket statements that condemn others for their fantasies. I think there should be no rules to fantasy, as long as people know the difference between fantasy and real life.
You have every right to discuss the aspects of the story you find disturbing. And to disagree with people's posts. It's just that I think people sometimes simplify the issue of how fiction influences people and may be quick to draw unwarranted assumptions.
yeah, no problem. i'm all for debating and seeing the other sides of each argument, haha. what concerns me is the people who are interpreting the abuse as romance and overlooking the psychological aspect of this manhwa. thanks for not being afraid to post. though.
thanks dude <3
i just made this topic for the debating to see what other people thought and to get insight into what the other opinions are really made of, that's all. i didn't create it to hate or for anyone to recieve hate. and at the beginning i said every man to their own [opinion]. thank you.
Completely agree, wish you could like replies haha
true lmao. thanks <3
Th problems of gay people living in japan are not *caused* by BL or yaoi, though I understand the fans have a bad rep in many circles. The problems are cause by how people act in real life. With all respect to the feelings of people ins elected documentaries, that's not how causation works. You describe a social and cultural problem (one that happens in other places too). But it's not stories that *cause* it--it's the fact that some people Japanese society feel they can treat others this way because they happen to be males in same sex relationships.
Straight men often fertilizes women in same sex relationships too--and this may or may not lead to inappropriate behavior. But it isn't the "lesbian" porn made for straight men that makes some men act that way--those men would probably be inappropriate to many women in any situation where they have the power and social sanction to do so. It's about what society finds acceptable and how we treat people in real life.
In the US, the term "fag hag" originally meant women who liked hitting on gay men. Some use it ironically or even affectionately, but at it's heart, the term meant creepy women who pursue gay the way a "dirty old man" pursues young women. This happens without BL or Yaoi influencing the "hag". The problem is that US society (and many others) does not have enough respect for people's personal boundaries in real life, not that people have bad fantasies.
I think the answer is to change what is consider acceptable behavior by people in real life to tell others that this sort of thing is not cool (whenever it is safe to do so). Perhaps there may be a need to examine the roots of how we treat sex and sexuality--but the focus needs to be on real life behaviors. For most people, fantasies do not cause direct copying of behaviors--behaviors are rooted in individual social skills and rules about what is considered socially acceptable in various situations.
BTW, rape tropes are also prevalent in Bara, which is primarily by gay men for gay men. And gay men can get handy with each other in real life too. Some gay men will inappropriately touch women too, and claim it's okay because the man is gay--ignoring the fact that the problem is that any person should have the right not to be touched unless they want to be whether it is sexual or not. So, what I am saying is that the issue is rooted n social rules, not fantasy, and solving the problem lies in changing the social rules in real life.
LOL, I mean fetishisize, not fertilize. Bloody auto-spell. But it adds humor. (⌒▽⌒)
I just....don't understand why you so badly want to deny and defend that people are reading this, misinterpreting it, and fetishizing it in unhealthy ways. No, not everyone is. The story isn't wrong for existing. The story is not problematic, but a lot of people reading it ARE. Thats honestly all that needs to be said. You can bring up causation all you want but that doesn't change the fact that condoning people doing this is harmful. Nobody is saying its ONLY damaging for people to like reading rape fantasies (as you bring up in your last paragraph). For a lot of people it can be helpful and they can handle it responsibly, but the matter here is that there are people that are handling it wrong, people are pointing it out, and then others are condemning people for pointing it out. Honestly, what you are arguing isn't what people are arguing here so idk why you keep trying to turn it into that. People are arguing that there are people not treating this story right and that aren't mature enough for this very mature topic.
Also, how can you even say all that stuff that has literally nothing to do with anything being discussed. Kind of seems like you're trying to manipulate the information to support arguing something completely irrelevant. But idk, maybe to you it makes sense, but it does not seem relevant to go into what you're going into.
Also I did not say the problems faced by gay people in Japan are created by bl fans. But some problems they face are created EXCLUSIVELY by bl fans. People that hate gay people aren't harassing gay people in the same ways bl fans are. People that dislike or discourage gay relationships aren't the ones going up to them and asking strangers to tell them about their sex lives. It is the fact that people DONT call out bl fans for their inappropriate behavior or point out flaws in their ways of thinking and actively discourage others from doing so, in SOME cases. Nothing I am saying is applicable to all, as you seem to misunderstand, I just want to clear that up.
None of anything I was arguing was about people having "bad fantasies". You are arguing a completely different point than me and continue to do so.
not to intrude on your debate, but i've seen you two on multiple threads arguing and while both of you have good points, you aren't talking about the same things. i would suggest just agreeing to disagree because the topic has shifted from killing stalking to how gay men are treated in japan (not a bad thing to discuss, but the argument is going nowhere) thank you both for sharing your opinion s though <3
I agree and thats what I've been saying. We aren't even arguing about the same thing lol
I will agree to disagree. It is off topic. But just know I'm dying inside to explain to you why I think what you are saying fits into what I said. (●￣(ｴ)￣●)
thank you~
I just finished reading an essay (⊙…⊙ )
lmao, sorry about that heh