kyouran's Topics (340)

This is the most perfect explanation rape in yaoi. You're completely right.

I would add that to condemn rape in yaoi on the basis that it is problematic in a misogynist society actually PLAYS INTO misogynistic culture. Yaoi is created by women for women to satisfy a psychological need specific to women. Allowing fear of misogynist society to drive you to condemn it and thereby further limiting women's freedom of expression gives power to rape culture, not the other way around.

Thank you

Excellent point. To ostracize what is a universal female sexual fantasy is to perpetuate misogyny; it is to force women in the shadows, to essentially silence women's sexual expression.

I definitely agree about the demonization. I'd simply say, no kink shaming. You also mentioned that mature, sophisticated, creative readers would be able to make the distinction between real life and fictional. Yes. But not liking romanticized rape does not necessarily mean not being able to make the distinction. I feel like it also needs to be made clear that not liking romanticized rape does not necessarily mean condescension. Does not necessarily mean demonization. It can simply mean that some tropes can be tiring and that you can have whatever you want in your fantasy but I like seeing a bit of reason (or if not I actually also like artistic absurdity, and nope, not necessarily satire) in mine. Why? Well not because I'm thinking that it will be used as a "How to act in the real world 101" module but because I appreciate an author's skill in observation and reason as much as I do imagination.
Oh but, yes, please do preach on people who demonize and thus limit the flexibility of Yaoi.
(word count: "necessarily" - 199)

"not liking romanticized rape does not necessarily mean not being able to make the distinction"

this might be true in your case.. but have you read various comments about rape every time the manga touches the subject ??
OVER AND OVER AGAIN,,, they keep saying things like "those who likes rape is disgusting.. rape is never okay.., rape shouldn't be romanticized because it brings only pain and suffering to the victims,.."

if you read this statements that always appear each time an author incorporate the "rape" theme in their works,,, can you REALLY SAY THAT THEY CAN MAKE DISTINCTION..???

these people seem to appear always.. never fails to amuse me actually.. because it is obvious that they confuse reality and fantasy.. anyways, i just want to point it out there...

I know. I feel you. I feel the frustration. That's why I repeatedly used "not necessarily" because I can't speak for everyone. I can't say they can definitely make the distinction so I never said so. But while we may be both frustrated by these people you pointed out, I have another frustration which is why I commented what I did. That is that a lot of people, and I'm not saying the person explaining at the top is one but the topic reminded me, assume too much, and a lot of times erroneously, about simple comments. Either they're just really black and white or just don't bother to think through yet bother to immediately "speak". A person says he/she doesn't like something and they just assume that person condemns that thing or likes the exact opposite or the like.

Sure, it's fine to not like it. We don't all share the same needs. But if it's not for you, then close the tab and move on. Because it IS necessarily demonization and condescension to preach at the "sinners." That is not cool.

I was not preaching. Come on. That's why I supported the person at the top on what she said about demonization. I was clarifying not liking does not mean demonization. I'm sorry, I don't think you're getting what I've been saying. I was not saying those people who are "preaching to the sinners" are not demonizing. Because, YES, "it IS necessarily demonization and condescension to preach at the 'sinners'". I was saying some people get mistakenly caught up and dragged in with other people's perception of these self-righteous people. Also, I didn't even say anything about anything I'm staying to read that I do not like so what is this about closing the tab and moving on. Not liking does not mean blindly rejecting so I also try to read. But it can often get to a point that I do close the tab and move on, only sometimes I see an interesting topic and feel the urge to express an opinion. I don't think I'm not allowed to when I'm doing it with respect.

Not liking does not mean demonization. I agree with that but tags are here for a reason so, people should stop reading mangas just because they are yaoi genre and look at the tags before complaining. When you buy some food you always look at the ingredients no?

Thank you for the explanation. I hope people will read your post and maybe they will understand a little bit more about rape, yaoi and everything else.

Woah. That was fairly well written. Nice job.

I completely agree with you that not liking a particular trope does not mean you are not a mature or creative reader. My commentary, as I mentioned, specifically addresses those readers that do not make a distinction between reality and fiction and that erroneously apply morality to romanticized rape even though the trope is not meant to be measured thus, and engage in shaming the trope and the readers that do like it; it also addresses the hypocrisy of readers that despite continuously denigrating the trope, continue to read stories with romanticized rape in them, because they obviously like it, but use it as the perfect opportunity to feel self-righteous or morally superior to others, and if you will notice, in many instances, an element of mob mentality is also involved.

I totally understand that there are sexual tastes for everyone, and that not all of us like the same things but not liking and denigrating are two separate things; liking or not such kinks has nothing to do with moral fiber or intellectual capacity. It is as simple as whether you prefer chocolate, vanilla or both. Kink shaming is unacceptable, but most especially because the different sexual kinks in Yaoi specifically lie in the realm of women sexuality. To kink shame in these forums is to suppress women's sexual expression, and women have been suppressed enough in history as it is. I've always found it ironic that such Yaoi readers have the gall to act self-righteous and judgmental towards fellow readers when engaging in a Yaoi forum out of all places! LOL! The genre itself is considered deviant, which makes all of us deviants in the eyes of society, but with different kinks. To act morally superior when you already like Yaoi is indeed ludicrous, yet we see it all the time.

Thank you and everyone else that have taken the time read my lengthy commentary and those that have engaged in the discussion. I think the topic is very relevant and has merit :)

I really wish I could explain that well.i have seen many times your explanation are always to the point .Which I am very envious .I can't even convey properly what I want to say It always came out something else because of my poor English .I respect you .

Kin, I don't think Anon was telling you to close the tab and move on from this discussion, I think that she/he is following on the train of thought that if a reader doesn't like stories with rape, as soon as they see the rape tag in the manga, that they should close it and move on. I also don't think that she/he means that people shouldn't voice their opinion, after all there are many things that interests us and we like to share our thoughts and engage in stimulating discussions; but I also think that there is a distinct difference between those that just do it to demonize or kink shame as you nicely put it, and those that are actually interested in honest exchange of ideas or are just making an objective observation or even heartfelt point. But again, I really don't think Anon was telling you to "shut it", but was instead referring about the "demonizers" we are discussing here.

Thank you for explaining it better. English is not my first language so, I couldn't explain it as well as you did. You're right about difference between polite discussion and demonizing
a manga. There are some readers who gets triggered and say very rude things to both mangaka and fellow readers which usually leads up to extremely long and ugly arguments, when I said people should pay attention to tags I meant those people not the ones who can engage in intriguing discussions.

Oh, ok. I'm sorry for misunderstanding. I got confused with the anons or, if you were the same person, the shift in conversation. Also because it was a reply to me so I thought it was directed to me as well.

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate you having typed this up. I feel like there are way too many people who misunderstand and are not correctly drawing the line between fantasy and reality. And this helps clarify that. Furthermore, in this particular story, the uke clarified multiple times that he was indeed not raped by Eiji. He makes a point that if he really wanted to refuse him, he could've. Especially when Eiji warned him beforehand that the next time he saw him, he was going to rape him. Moreover, Shunichi opened the door for Eiji multiple times. Which goes to show, if he really had wanted to refuse, he had option of doing so, yet he didn't. Thus, I don't understand why some people go to the length of creating a comment about romanticized rape. Yes, people are entitled to their own opinions. However, they take it way too far sometimes.

Thank you, Nemunemu for your kind sentiment :)

Excellent point. After I read the story, I wrote my reflection on it and part of that was that I found it unique because in romanticized rape, it is implicitly understood that the uke "wants it and enjoys it" because he's a either attracted or already in love with the seme, but he doesn't admit it; but in this particular case, the uke consciously verbalized what is the fundamental aspect of romanticized rape, his desire to be "sexually dominated/conquered" by the seme, that indeed, it was not rape because he acted on his own volition. So, here's the uke, openly admitting "I wanted it!" and yet people still continue to disparage it. How much more transparent can it get before readers start understanding the concept of the trope? It's like the magaka was purposely telling readers, "hey, look! I'm clearly telling you this is not your concept of rape". But it seems to have gone over most people's head (whoosh!). It's like a mob mentality, once it gets going, it's hard to stop. And again, Rape presented in a romanticized form in fiction is not supposed to unleash morally censorious judgments, because *** emphasis on word*** it's fiction created to satisfy a female sexual fantasy that happens to be greatly popular. Thank you AoiTori for adding to the discussion!

Thank you for writing that long explanation. It's totally spot on and I appreciate that you try to enlighten those readers in a mature and polite way. Though I doubt most of those offensive immature readers will bother to read it or try to understand our view, been seen this kind of mentality too much on the internet and real life. I often find myself very frustrated with their hypocrisy and their self-righteous comments.

Lately, I find there are more and more of those judgemental readers, unlike before when most of us could appreciate all kind of yaoi, and if some people couldn't handle hardcore yaoi then it's fine but they didn'y demonize us who enjoyed it. Al least, that's how it feels for me based on my own experiences in yaoi community. I know I'm old lol

So once again thank you for writing it and trying to defend us mature readers. And please pardon my grammars since I'm not a native speaker. Best regards to you.

I also agree that a lot of readers are and will always be unreceptive because their biases (ignorance) are too ingrained, so no amount of facts will dissuade them from their misconceptions and prejudices. Also, it is very important to emphasize that my commentary was probably 20% subjective viewpoint and 80% facts. It is a fact and not opinion that romanticized rape in fiction is not morally prescriptive or that it's not supposed to be morally judged; it is also a fact that Yaoi is a sub genre of Romance, and as Anon previously stated, Yaoi is fiction written BY adult women FOR adult women, it is also a fact that romanticized rape caters to the universal female fantasy of sexual submission/domination; universal because it is a sexual fantasy indulged by women across cultures/countries from all social/economic levels. Whether readers agree with romanticized rape or not is irrelevant, because facts are facts. I think that "kink shaming" is not a simple matter of "freedom of expression", as it is extremely disrespectful of women (all readers) that enjoy the trope, and everyone that believes in respect of others and is interested in fomenting an open and harmonious environment in our Yaoi communities should make a conscientious effort in censuring this derogatory behavior. "Kink shaming" should never be acceptable, especially in Yaoi forums as a domain predominantly created for women sexual expression. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, Kurenai!

I totally agree with you and anon. Yeah, facts don't matter at all for them, even if we shove it to their faces. Sometimes it feels like their brains are wired so that the right views and morals are theirs only no matter how bias and judgemental those things are, they just can't accept things and people that are different from them. Everyone have their own kinks and we have to respect that. If they feel that romanticized rape isn't their cup of tea and can't disassociate it with real life morals, then they should just leave it alone and don't have to make derogatory comments, nor being hypocrites that secretly enjoy it but in-denial and don't want other people know it by being bigots. If they want to be in-the-closet so-to-speak, then they should just read it and being silent and mature about it.

Like what you've said, we read yaoi to indulge in our sexual fantasies, so just find whichever catter to our kink and don't read the ones that aren't our kinks, as simple as that really. Being gay is considered immoral for a lot of prejudiced people irl too, so they shouldn't even read yaoi if they are want to be morally acceptable people. Some people just can't differentiate fictions and real life. And true, "freedom of expression" is a different matter from "kink shaming". But oh well... smh

I've been commenting too long again lol Anyway, thank you so much too for replying and sharing your thoughts, Kyouran. May all readers, women and men, can always enjoy our yaoi without any shame no matter what our preference tropes are. Cheers~

Thank you for providing such a comprehensive dissertation on the theme of forced sexual relations in fiction. Kudos for thoroughness and sensitivity on such a hot button subject. As I was reading your comment I felt an epiphany moment and saw a glimmering response to so many of the negative cycles of bashing, blocking, and dropping popular in social media as people unthinkingly react rather than engaging in discourse to others opinions on sensitive topics.

Thank you for taking the time to read the commentary and for your kind remarks, Rea. I also agree that engaging in discourse is much more productive and intellectually stimulating, but unfortunately, it does not provide the high for a lot of people that purposely use the veil of anonymity that the internet provides to let loose the very worst of human nature, which we have to otherwise repress under our normal face-to-face social interactions. That is why I really value people like you and everyone else that participated in the discussion and/or shared their thoughts. I even value those that thumbed down my post, because it implies they took the time to read the lengthy commentary (I would like to think they did) even if they disagreed with my argument :)

The thing is that is all fine and dandy and completely understandable as to why some women and men as well seek to read yaoi in particular for its allowance of sexual fantasy, however if the genre is for the purposes of women why are women not it’s primary subjects. I completely understand that having women as the genre’s characters would defeat the purpose of yaoi in that yaoi is inherently male on male driven love/sex. But then if the main purpose is an outlet of sexual desire for female consumption then why have male bodies occupy this space and subject them to real life circumstances of sexual abuse and violence for female enjoyment and entertainment, but claim victimhood when questioned on their right and depiction of queer male narratives ? Of course you could compare this to woman who view gay porn rather than straight porn for similar reasons of a primary attraction to the male form but one that is enhanced by the lack of female presence. However those woman aren’t demonized or judged for their sexual tastes. The real question is who has ownership and authority to certain narratives and depiction of said narratives? Both yaoi and gay porn are a fantasy are they not? However the narrative of gay porn is controlled by gay men with women peeking into this sphere of sexuality when they want to get their rocks off. That is not the case with yaoi, where it’s rather women providing the narration of gay men for other women. I know there is bara as well and it is primarily for gay men by gay men, but bara is truthfully a byproduct of yaoi for the most part. A genre that entails the same structure, tropes, and narratives of yaoi with more muscle and a patent for going the extreme in the genre’s most controversial tropes. That isn’t to say bara gets a pass and yaoi doesn’t simply because a man wrote the story in comparison. Actual gay manga that depicts and is demonstrative of gay men is limited and far and in between for yaoi or bara and neither truly make a claim at being educational or representative. However both are still sources of media that depict queer male love regardless, often in violent and abusive ways. For me at least the problem with yaoi may be ultimately it’s reliance on a lived experience their female writers have no experience or “authority” to, that romanticizes an experience they desire for themselves on “others” to remove that judgement and guilt attributed to having those desires play out on female bodies like their own. The issue becomes if those desires are their own shouldn’t the empowerment lie in having those desires be created for women, by women, and demonstrated on women? I suppose the equivalent would be, on the vein of my gay porn comparison, porn that caters to the female gaze specifically. Regardless everyone is entitled to their thoughts in regards to why they consume certain media, and I am not one to attack or shame another for their different mind set. I just personally do not like romanticized rape whether male or female bodies are involved because I personally separate the idea of dominated sex fantasy and rape not being exclusive to one another and thus should not group as the same for the sake of fictional entertainment. I do enjoy yaoi I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn’t, but what I don’t enjoy is the suggestion that just because yaoi was created by women for women means the genre gets a past of its harming of depictions of a subject that in fact has nothing to do with women as well. It’s almost ironic when you think of it. Yaoi is for women but it has nothing to do with women.

Reminded me of Doumeki with his "most beautiful" confession, only this guy is a puppy and Doumeki is stony-faced. :D Even the smoking scene in bed reminded me of Yashiro.