LeRain's Topics (1876)

Thank you for saving me from wasting my time on this

If you don’t like it don’t read. IT’S FICTIONAL!!! I don’t know why you’re here and still says shit like this when it’s been going on since ch.2.

Plus, if you really want to get into the psychological reason for why a lot of women like this type of thing, one of them is that it’s satisfying. The MC is an obvious jerk who abuses his position of being handsome and a man to push others into doing what he wants. That’s what a lot of women go through in their life, just see the case of that famous actor who was having a sexual relationship with an underage girl who later committed suicide.

Then we see this guy getting a taste of his own medicine and being done, something that is emasculating to a lot of men because they equate that to being treated like a woman, aka, us.

Its not only about bl authors there are many straight stories written by men with same concept and widely read by men only both sides of gender doing to each other what's wrong with that media can't stop women getting brutalised and sexualize that's going on like ages time has change women can do same . ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Girl obviously you aren't gonna do that if you're on mangago

Listen I don’t agree with OP’s take, but I don’t think this is fair. I think “women are oppressed so it’s okay to fantasize about violence depicted against an oppressed minority” is kind of… not a cool thing to say? I’ve heard this take before and while I understand it, I don’t feel like it’s a good argument.
Not to play oppression olympics because being a woman IS absolutely hard as shit and trying to rank oppression is nonsensical and harmful, but percentage wise/per capita, queer men are just as, if not more likely, to experience sexual violence (hard to find many stats on this bcus most studies either lump LGBT all together or are on intimate partner violence instead of just all violence, but one has 40% of gay men and 47% of bisexual men, obv. with the caveat that most sexual violence goes unreported). (Worth acknowledging tho that queer women also experience higher rates of violence as a group, however!)
Like. I hope this makes sense. As a gay trans man - a gay man who was forced to live as a girl for the first 18 years of life - and also a victim of sexual violence (while living as a man, by another man), I find this defense kind of… bizarre? Upsetting? Disquieting?

I was very intrigued by your thoughts! So I kinda wanted to touch on it a little. To preface this, I don’t want to erase your specific experience or come off dismissive of your feelings as a trans gay person! I am also transmasc but leaning more in the nblw direction myself. Hope you stay safe out there because this site is fucking crazy if you’re trans. Uh. And I’m gonna touch on spoilers that are common-ish knowledge here but JUST IN CASE:





I feel like this is a pretty standard plotline used in pornography that caters to men. So why is it so different for some people when it’s written by a woman about men? This is just something I’ve read from another person who worded it better, but most porn caters to men and reaffirms violence against women in and out of the bedroom. I find it hard to believe that some yaoi about a misogynistic rapist getting tortured is on par with the dehumanizing slop that incels get off on. Doubly so when you take into consideration the fact that this manhwa was made in Korea, where it’s quite common for female authors to take sexist “alpha male” caricatures like Jiwook and subject them to the horrors. I mean, if we’re gonna play it in terms of politics, then this manhwa is actually kind of “woke” for disempowering a homophobic nutcase and putting his gay victim in the position of dominance. Of course people can analyze and interpret the story however they want and take away different things from it. In the case of this story in particular, I don’t think people are cheering on violence against queer men because there IS homophobia in the story. But it is treated very seriously. My point is that this is kind of a different case from your average mangago comment section where people are cheering on the abuse of some random twink because they’re cheering on the abuse of an abusive tool. And this all goes without saying that nobody should ever under any circumstances endorse abuse irl just because someone is from xyz group. That in itself is a very dangerous perspective.

okay firstly ty for being cool I swear half the people in the comments on this site are mean as hell. Also hi fellow transmasc o/

I totally get what you’re saying & ty for explaining your opinion to me!

I think, to me, while the story is (thus far) pretty similar to many stories for straight men, the gay element can’t really be removed and makes it hard to compare, but I’ll get to that in a second. Because I do wanna make some space to say that like, yeah, it is concerning that a lot of content catered to straight men is misogynistic and violent, and I would agree that the playing field is not equal and perpetuates cycles of violence against women.

To go back now, the reason I feel this story is different is because both characters are explicitly, canonically queer, one of them just deals with extremely severe internalized homophobia that manifests externally as well. Which, like, while that is a very real phenomenon (see famous conversion therapy camp heads, for an extreme example), it’s not one I trust most people to respectfully comment on, especially not in a BL story like this. From my understanding, the inciting incident of the story, [heavy spoilers onward, for this paragraph], Jiwook inciting a gang rape on Juyeon when they were teenagers in high school, was fueled by Jiwook having a crush on Juyeon. From the one person I’ve seen who has actually read the entire story, including all of the side chapters, they allegedly even get a “healthy relationship” ending, where Juyeon gets Jiwook therapeutic help and they are in a more stable relationship in a 5 year time skip.

I don’t think the reader needs to be cheering on violence against gay men specifically for it to have ramifications, y’know? Gay sex is already depicted as violent and debasing, and as you mentioned, seeing a man getting raped by a man is viewed as emasculating and humiliating, and things effect people subconsciously.

So basically, I think trying to justify something like this as a way of getting back and venting misogyny and violence against women feels more like… punching down, than anything. Or punching to the side?Even if it’s framed as punching up, at misogynistic tools, I feel like queer men are still caught in the crossfire. Obviously stories like No Reason or An Easy Target are completely different playing fields, where the victim goes through tremendous suffering just because, whereas this is more of a revenge story. Like porn that caters to straight men is by and large a much larger issue, to the point that I feel like I’m understating it. I just don’t think framing things like this as a sort of solution or coping is beneficial. Like, I think stories like this can exist without societal justification, if that makes sense!

oh, important to clarify, i do actually like this story! i think it suffers from poor marketing in some places, since afaik the novel is marketed more as a psychological story than BL. kind of like killing stalking being technically wrongly marketed as BL. it’s more that i think we don’t gotta have systemic issues to justify stories like this, if that helps? while simultaneously believing there’s nuance to be had about depictions of queer characters and stories in media, etc.

Totally appreciate you giving me your thoughts! I don’t have any overpowering disagreements because you articulated it so well. But I do want to respond meaningfully because you gave me a lot to think about. Also, I won’t be focusing too much on the topic I’ve already harped on about (patriarchal depictions of women and the fetishization of female suffering). I mean, we’re both transmasc dudes. We definitely know what it means to have to live as a girl.

Anyways!

I often find myself caught in this weird dichotomy of “you know what this is just porn and it’s not that deep” and “well, there’s definitely some kind of psychology behind Why so much porn from Korea is like this”. If I’m gonna be real with you, I have plenty of issues with BL and Yaoi as a genre, from people’s urgent need to feminize one party in a relationship, to the straight-out refusal to touch on any of the cultural components of queerness that are unpalatable. And the whole homophobic bully trope, which is the driving force behind this particular story, is insanely overdone. I want to say that even though Jiwook is most definitely a bigoted tool, I would never want to erase the fact that he is a queer man. He’s just a queer man that’s caused irreparable harm to another queer man and his family when they were both boys. And I feel like holding these two concepts that Jiwook is both a victim and a perpetrator will help people enjoy the story a lot more. The story definitely isn’t the most flattering portrait of queerness, considering the fact that every queer character is a rapist or rape enabler. But it could also be argued that the queerness in the story takes a backseat to a bigger concept, which is the “evils” of men. From the men who stand by as abuse happens to the ones who partake in it, sexuality becomes irrelevant when people are committing terrible violence. I doubt all the men who partake in Jiwook’s abuse or spectate on it fall under the lgbtq spectrum, they just see him as a piece of meat. So because Jiwook is a total monster, the readers usually don’t feel very bad when the tables are turned on him and he is put into the position he once held others in. But at the end of the day I’d never tell a gay man to just “deal” with their personal discomfort at seeing these themes handled sloppily in a popular piece of media. Just because I’m mostly like “eh, men be like that” about the story, your feelings are 100% valid. Just wanted to opine a little on the concepts I brought up earlier but was too tired to yap about because the sun wasn’t even up. I’m kind of a “Sassy AF Comebacks” sort of dude in the yaoi forums but I have complete respect for people like you who want to share their thoughts and be empathetic.

I was half joking, why are you all so serious? It’s a rape centered story.

Yeah it’s a fucked up take, but most people on mangago think rape and loli/shota stuff is fine. There is no point in arguing with them.

I agree with you, that person you were responding to is fucked up in the head and I'm saying this as a lesbian woman. So sorry about people like that.

OMG people, you guys don’t get it. First, NEVER compare this with Loli/shota or put me anywhere near that.

Second, I NEVER wished anyone any harm irl , NEVER, specially not against gay men, that’s fucked up. You made it seem like I have some type of porn revenge fantasy against gay men, like wth? Never.

My point was about straight men abusing their position over women. Of course anyone can read this story and enjoy or dislike it, but this was made by a woman to other women, there’s a difference. It’s not about oppressing a minority, again, thats fucked up.

It might seem contradictory saying this story about men with other men is not about gays but it’s not, and it’s the point you guys missed. Boy’s love story got popular with women because they used these stories to liberate repressed desires, like being more sexually liberated, being looked on as an equal, etc.

There are great stories that treat gay people like they are irl, their issues, how society rejects them,even SA in a tactful and respectful manner, but this is not one of them. It’s a revenge porn story.

Ouroboros for example is the manhwa I would recommend that treats everything horrible the character goes through seriously. His abuse, his sexuality, etc.You all should read that instead, it’s great, because you’re not going to find what you’re looking for here.

So you're really out here saying this story isn't about queer men, while watching one man rape, drug, and psychologically torture another—and somehow your takeaway is "this is empowering for women"? Be for real here... You're not talking about liberation. You’re talking about a fetish built on queer men's pain, and calling it "revenge porn" like that makes it deep. It doesn't. It makes you sound unwell. A sick mentally-ill individual.

And yeah, let's be honest—you're very clearly a straight woman who's self-inserting into these stories, projecting your own sexual frustration onto feminized versions of gay men you don't actually care about. You're not here for "psychological complexity" or "trauma recovery." You're here to get off to abuse. That's not edgy. That's creepy behavior.

You talk like you're progressive but you're defending a story where rape is used as a power trip, and the victim's queerness is treated like a punchline. That is homophobic. You're using gay men as dolls to act out your degenerate revenge fantasies because you're too cowardly to admit you don't respect them as people. Just props.

What's actually disgusting is the way you distance yourself from loli/shota, like you're better, when you're doing the same thing in a different font. You get off to control, humiliation, and trauma, but wrap it in "female gaze" or "liberation" and pretend that gives it meaning. You're not radical. You're just another straight woman fetishizing queerness while pretending you're helping.

And you know exactly what you're doing. You've read the scenes. You've seen the abuse. And instead of being a normal fucking sane human, you defend it. That's not empowerment. That's deranged.

Get help.

Jesus Mary Joseph can you take your fucking meds or go back to spanking it to teenage girls making ahegao faces? Straight up this comment should empower everyone else to never abuse K2 while pregnant.

You really couldn't handle being called out so you went straight to projecting the worst shit you could think of... that's fucking pathetic. You're defending a story where rape is treated like porn, and now you're trying to flip the narrative like I'm the problem? Nah. You outed yourself as a creep with zero self-awareness. Don't dish it if you can't take the truth.

I thought you were @cocosathelier, but you're the same person on my ass to get the last word. I ended our argument and you come here to start it again. Not even gonna give you attention. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

#numberonedicksucker

None of the eaters want you <3

Ok Tony Lopez.