Kiki's Topics (280)

i like your opinion but dropping painter of the night is a no-no! haha

I dropped potn too, i'm fine with the ml being toxic tho, i just hate the plot. But i get your point tho

Ikr. I agree with him/her saying that. But, Painter of the night has a special place in my heart. The angst is what I wanted. Even though I hated the rape scenes very much.

right? but the ending was so good. i will never forget the fact that seungho changed to be better for kyum. They are my sanctuary

Look I've got no idea but thought on this topic myself. Take this with a grain of salt, but I really do think there's a heavy sense of patriarchal misogyny and internalised homophobia in all of these works. The characters are almost always assigned to rigid heteronormative roles (i.e., bigger aggressive seme, smaller more demure absolutely push over uke who can't think for themselves).

It's a reflection of the societal viewpoint that women (or the inserts for women, like ukes or omegas) are lesser then and should accept their place. A boy 'likes' you if he pull on your pigtails - or no no, he really does love you, even if he slaps you across the face when you make him mad! He's just so passionate. And in these mangas they don't have to pretend there's a veneer of pretend chivalry.

I feel that's why these stories tend to skip over topics like coming out and homophobia or actually reflecting on the experiences of gay men and their relationships. Because it's not about them.

P.s I read all this stuff too, I feel it's good to always be able to critically reflect on the media we consume.

I love reading thinkpieces like these! This is actually a very believable and likely a genuine reason behind this sort of dynamics in mainstream stories. A strong example I can think of is porn. If you've noticed even in normal porn content from East asia (Japan ESP) the one that gets ploughed plays the act of 'shy resistant repressed guilty but gives in' act. The problem is fetishizing masses and the authors who cater to this inorder to achieve success. I don't mean that just cuz it's Lgbtq it needs serious life changing deep plots but the thing is the authors actually don't flesh their characters as themselves but rather, as you said forced into heteronormative roles which are heavily shaped by the deep rooted and still prevalent patriarchy n internalized misogyny. This strips away the characters from being their own identity and they exists just to be entertainment of the majority of masses who enjoy bl as
Part of their fetishism. All things said, wholesome and authentic good stories do exists but they aren't as hyped in social media as these stories which is why we might feel that every other bl story follows this plot dynamics but good genuine bls aren't that less in number compared to dark ones like these.

This. Valid point.

And , I've been thinking as well, to add to this whole conversation, considering that porn and such is illegal in SK. The sheer amount/quantity of manwhas especially BLs and the amount of violence and plot lines really does make you think.

This. Valid point.

And , I've been thinking as well, to add to this whole conversation, considering that p**n and such is illegal in SK,yet looking at the sheer amount/quantity of manwhas, especially BLs and the amount of them with these plot lines, containing all these aspects mentioned above, really does make you think.

(▰˘◡˘▰) I LOVE THEM SOO MUCH. CAN'T WAIT FOR THE EXTRA CHAPTERS.

Hahahaha I knoooow, I was really enjoying it too, it just got too much for me. I'm reading snob's Steel Under Silk which is like a more political intrigue take on PotN as a substitute.

Yes, I've been reading them for years too so I'm thinking about this as a fan too. In terms of the rigid heteronormativity I used to think that too. Then I paid attention to trans reader and scholars, especially those with omegaverse, which offered a different kind of reading that didn't limit to men as "playing women roles" but performing different genders all together.

But I agree it's entangled with a lot of phobias and misogyny, and Gt345 bringing in porn's influence is something to consider as well. I'm also aware that what we get in translation is just a percentage of what's actually created. I wonder if the home market looks different? Maybe there is some scholarship out there in English I can find.

Shouldn't complain bcs it's very clear from the start what's gonna happen

No! I'm shocked and surprised. Could that be what shaped my response? Does it only make sense because I did indeed discern that very thing but, in the process of this prolonged guardianship arc I discovered that I really enjoyed it and wanted to express my regret with a fragile hope I had no expectation of being fulfilled? Because I am a full fledged human being who can form thoughts about a piece of media beyond the author's vision?

I have no idea why some are committed to telling others what they should/shouldn't do or think in a random comment section. It's odd (to put it nicely).

I agree completely

the yaoi tag should've been the first warning...

Thanks! I'm just attached to this dynamic while knowing full well it won't remain.

It's funny because responses like this show your lack of reading comprehension, not mine lol. I know the dynamic will change hence me predicting I'll drop it after.

you do you i guess and i saw 'stranger' on your reading list so might as well drop that cause they have the same exact dynamic and plot just sayin

dude ppl don't have to justify a female characters poor actions just bc some ppl glaze toxic mls. your correlation is so poor, her gender aint got nothing to do with her having a silly ass cooerelation (like u have rn) between her neglectful past and her being homophobic lmao. ppl obv are gonna be upset if she is outwardly declaring her homophobia because she wishes she could be as open and free as them. she was being stupidly annoying and thats okay we don't have to sympathize with goofiness just bc shes female. plus theres so many ppl who don't glaze toxic mls i generally see equal comments of ppl disagreeing/agreeing with the toxic ml in question.

I get what you're saying but she also completely ignored her confused grandma leaving the house cause she was busy making those profiles... don't care how sad her backstory is, that's still awful.

True true, the folks point here in the comment is that her tragic past have no correlation or whatsoever with their relationship, and after that, she have the guts to say "i dont support you" whatever IN THEIR FACE. Hella rude and uncalled for. Nobody's not acknowledging her past, we are, its just, whats your oast have to do with you being rude and uncalled for lmao

EXACTLY like her past is sad and undeserved yes but like not an excuse to be homophobic

If you don't agree that gender has anything to do with it fine but this is an established means of analysis. I don't need folx to like her. I don't like her! Unlikeable characters are fine. It's the content and tone of the response that I find frustrating. There are endless essays and books on media and feminist studies examining this sort of thing. Not everyone does it duh but it's a pattern that holds up an entire genre. BL is built on its success even though yes there is criticism of it. The female character who obstructs the couple is a well worn trope.

"She wishes she could be as open and free as them." I guess . She's worried about them being ostracised and isolated because of her own experiences of being abused which is itself an isolating experience (compounded by her own moves to isolate herself it has to be said). Then her grandmother's dementia made her situation more dire. At this point she wants stability in her only community and she's worried this relationship will ruin that. No doubt, general societal homophobia is in the mix somewhere but from her own reaction in this chapter I don't think that's the main engine behind her wacked out behaviour.

This is what I mean. All that fuels so many thoughts here is whether one likes or doesn't like a character and it leads to reductive readings and superficial analysis.

This is the foundation of human psychology. Human beings behave in ways that seem to defy rational behaviour. People being rude, harmful, violent and also nice, reverential to others who have done nothing to deserve it is actually an everyday thing. The question is why? How does it make sense in their mind? The creator has laid out some possible answers here but it's like whatever, this isn't English lit, I'll just cross my fingers and hope this side plot or whatever ends soon and we get back to happy times.

Did she *ignore* her as in she saw her grandmother leave the house herself but made the conscious decision to prioritise being an interfering weirdo? Or did she think her grandmother was safe inside, got absorbed in her stupid antics, and didn't realize anything was wrong until they brought the grandmother home?

In the city where I live it is not uncommon to see police notices on social media for missing elderly people because the family reported it. She needs to be held accountable but it's not the sign of moral failure and bankruptcy some are trying to make it out to be. The grandparent is someone who is used to being independent and doing as they please. Unless you have them under 24 hour surveillance this can and does happen. This is why it takes a family to handle this sort of thing. The primary carer needs support! Sometimes she needs a break (not to be matchmaking people without their consent)! It's not a one person job. Luckily, the community came through for her.

I appreciate that you get what I'm saying otherwise.

No I know what you mean by people automatically hating a female character just for "getting in the way of relationships" in the bl genre in general and sometimes it is very Misgynostically guided but in this case I don't think that applies. She isn't getting any hate for her gender and even for Interfering per ay rather the reasoning behind it. As a queer male myself it's often times were people will justify their homophobia because of their experiences and "love" for the other. And not wanting to be related to someone queer. Not saying she is doing all of the above but she is definitely using her past to excuse blantant homophobia on her part and crossing boundaries. No one evenly wrongfully analyzed her no one denyed her experience it's just the correlation is herself and nothing to do with her backstory. I have had many ppl in my life going through simalrily what she has gone thru and hasn't been or excused homophobia using it. She can want stability and be worried but she is only focusing on herself and not actually caring like she's claiming otherwise she would be worried in reverse for them and not herself. So honestly I just don't get what this particular character has done to tie into the whole unnecessary hate for a female character. If that's not what u were trying to say idk how feminism ties into any of this as she's only getting criticized abt her motives behind her actions.

You explain her actions to me as if *I* am seeking to excuse or justify her actions. I'm not. My stance is about the judgement on her being unnecessarily harsh and superficial and that this is influenced by her gender and the trope the creator wrote her into, in a more substantial way I think, but it's clearly not hitting here. (She didn't spill all of the details of her life in one moment which is realistic to me.)

The trope *itself* is gendered so how can we eliminate her gender as a factor in the responses? It's a part of the trope's equation. We can agree to disagree tho. I appreciate you trying to engage with my points. That doesn't always happen. Thanks!

Okay I see what ur saying yes I do think this troupe tends to be very gendered in a sense of how they portray these characters. Although I cant fully say it is because I've seen this type of writing for both female and male characters. I feel it's kind of lazy writing imo unless very thought out and presented as such. Sorry for explaining things unnecessary and I wasn't suggesting in the second reply that u agreed with her but why others might feel strongly against it.

Kwon had stuff stolen from the store before. So much so that it has become a repeating issue (I think he even accused the single dad of stealing them when they first met but i could be misremembering).The first time we see granny was when she was stealing chocolate from the store, meaning she clearly did it. There's no way the girl wouldn't have known about granny wandering off all those times. You're right, ignored was a bad word to use. She's NEGLECTFUL. Just like her parents.