blackdia's Topics (114)

Truer words have never been written on a yaoi commentary.. lol. Tell them again! xoxo

You can be the perpetrator now and become the victim next... and things can change completely in the next round and goes as a cycle, a cycle of violence. This story puts in a microcosm some characteristics of our social system. I was -at the same time-fascinated and horrified by some characters.

Well, it's rape whenever there isn't consent, even if the survivor cums (bodies do what they do)--but this is fiction so we can suspend disbelief and think he enjoys it (if we want to). I don't think I could say Azusa was "ravished" with a straight face. That first stairwell rape was most definitely without his consent and he had this weird crying for mommy thing going on. That doesn't mean the story is bad, just that rape is an element here.

On another note, I think that many of the people being offended on behalf of gay men are not actually gay men--at least not the people posting here. I'm sure that some gay men may have expressed concerns in some other forums, but some of the people posting here sounded like they were speaking up for some hypothetical "other" that is different from "us". The politically active members of LGBT+ community are probably more upset about the shooting in Orlando and countries that execute gay people. I'm not saying that is all anyone has a right to be concerned about, just that maybe most of them don't care that much about this issue at this time--at least that's my impression. I think it's like if you asked people at a Black Lives Matter protest if they would like to see more diverse characters in manga, some might say sure, that would be cool--but the majority are more concerned with black people getting killed than they are with those types of issues.

Speaking of DC and Marvel discussions, ever heard of the Hawkeye Initiative? People have concerns over them for representational issues as well just like the many people that commented here. Both fiction, Different genders but same process of nor8malisation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hawkeye_Initiative

http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQYu4MOFCY

http://christiegordon.com/does-yaoi-exploit-gay-men-and-do-we-care/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKsKlRaiWPU

https://www.quora.com/What-do-gay-men-typically-think-about-yaoi

I found the links from a comment below


Iam gay, i migrated from japan to singapore, and im concerned like the people in the following forums above. Im not saying its wrong to have this content. Im not saying i am majority. Just say there are people concerned about stereotypes and coming from two places with gay stereotype in japan and unspoken homophobia in Singapore, it is confusing to see a lot of popular mangas about gays having the same story and trop. Maybe westerners can accept because they accept all kinds of gays so they know the difference but in the two countries ive live in, its feels different. Of coorse there are a lot of exceptions.

The orlando shooting is very serious and sad but it dont mean we cannot care about things like this. If we can make people back in my country more understanding about actual gays and lesbians and less stereotype like 'onee' with through these kind of mangas that people read, it will be nice. These kind of manga dont need to go cos ppl enjoy, but i would want more manga that is both enjoyable and make us understand. Sorry for the long message. Thank you

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ilOa3E4U5FY

"this is a rare yaoi that is not full of cliches, with an interesting pattern, original characters, and a significative message: that violence exists, it's hidden behind nice surfaces and it's the worst kind of it"--------

There are so many messages in that masterpiece, but the main one, in my opinion, is that we're forced to wear masks by the society, even if it's not about violence (like in Tatsumi's case, or Karino's (in a way that it will jeopardize his career if he stays with Azusa).

"One last deep thought: it's not a rape if you fucking come like Azusa does every-fucking-time-since-the-very-first-time"------------

I'm with you!

"bodies do what they do"--------

No, they don't. If orgasm was an ordinary reaction to rape, rapists would get medals, not imprisonments. There are cases when "victims" enjoy the rape, but that's rare. Well, it's not like the rapists in rl are "the Karinos of the world", those don't even exist, he's just too perfect.

Theres a study that shows that a number of rape victims do react to the rape and feel something but it doesnt mean they want it in their mind. Thats one of the reasons why rape victims need to be told that its perfectly normal to ease their mental dilemma and guilt. Its still rape no matter what but we can differentiate between reality and fantasy riight?

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape

Lol Hello Bitches just owned u

U got rekt by Hello Bitche$. U got rekt. Should have googled before you wrote this in. People can orgasm for any number of reasons even when pressure is applied to their teeth or their eyebrows got stroked and they can get aroused without their knowledge. So yea.... Google.

Well someone didnt get their facts right. If it was Anoni Grrl's reasoning its still ok, but u had to add that. U got rekt. Respect to Hello Bitche$

Yes, sometimes that can happen.

That sometimes is a significant number probably in the 300s considering that USA has the third highest number of rape cases in the world, above india. Im not saying rape in yaoi is bad, i agree with anoni grrl its a fantasy world, ppl enjoy stuff. Yea, so when someone didnt lay low and try to rebuff it real life without research and say its not rape, its an "uh.........." moment. Dont feed the "rape is wrong" people with inconsistencies.

After all that serious heated debate about differentiating reality and fantasy, that is one fashionable blunder. What are you doing stating such a widely known rape myth with such bold confidence?

Gives you crazy sarcastic karino eyes*

You don't have to repeat the same crap from different accounts, as you usually do. Anyways, if you were a little bit less dumb, you would notice "There are cases when "victims" enjoy the rape, but that's rare" part of my comment. Those 4% mentioned in that article is exactly what "rare" means, ASSUMING that it might be more - not good enough. And even if it was 30%, it's still wouldn't be "an ordinary reaction on rape". Not to mention that this article is more about "you shouldn't feel guilty if you had an orgasm while being raped".

One more thing - I tend to have my own opinion on things and matters..but that would obviously be too hard for you to understand.

The problem is that, when someone talks about RL and real life facts without knowing some things. The "response" during a sexual assault is due more because an autonomic response of the nervous system in some circumstances (and factors) than with sexual arousal in itself. The problem (?) is that these stories play a lot with the ambiguity of consent and non-consent and take off rape from its context for drama reasons. This story, in particular, uses yaoi tropes to show something else: matters of power and domination set in a school that looks more like a prison, an obscure place in which there's no justice. In some way it remembers me a lot "A clockwork orange" and its final message: You are not more a deviant if it is the same society which uses your violence in a legitimate way.

Ya'll are kinda annoying about the rape thing now. Like I come to mangago to read and enjoy- literally my place of comfort away from work all the bs of everyday life. Gonna mute this thread now and know that I am no hater, period- lol everything is usually meh or whatever as far as i'm concerned but Ii would employ u all to get over it and get a life or... go do something about it instead or tryna start feud over a fictitious magnificient piece of work. RAPE OF WRONG PERIOD- END OF FUCKING STORY. Whether this manga is raoe or not IDGAS! The manga is good, read or move along. P.S xoxo love for all lol...

*RAPE IS WRONG PERIOD-
lol, so tired, please excuse my MANY ERRORS- GG goodnight, time to play league.

All of that could have gone unsaid. This is to anyone, if you don't want to join, leave the discussion. No one is forcing you to stay. Lol. We are not holding you captive. Just leave. Could have muted this without even responding, but you just HAVE to express how it annoys you. Great. Lol

The funny thing abt stat, numbers is that other count. don;t keep as accurate stats. as we do. We keep records. on every thing. And I do need every thing. If you are trying to compare country to country that is hard to do. You don't know What each called a rape. or was not a rape. Some countries(to look good will under report their crime stats bec. they don't take in the age of the offender / victim.) Or it occurred in the home. Even in the so called developed countries.Stats here are always higher bec. we report every thing. other places don't. an interesting fact, Overall the crime of rape has gone down in the U.S. according to the CDC they think it it bec. of available internet porn and dna technology. they fear being caught. I'm not saying it is not going on just that there has been a drop.

Such a low blow, Now thats just desperate. 4% of over 25000

To be fair, all crime has dropped in recent years. It doesn't say much to say rape has dropped when everything else has too. It's still a problem on a smaller scale, and within the constraints of the current status.

America also has a 4% of innocent people being killed by death sentence. Both affects one's life. And in some researches, it could be estimated up to 20% and sometimes they get accused in court of lyinh just cos they reacted. You said rare which is close to 0. This is clearlt 1000 and above.

If u think 30+% doesnt count, thats around the vote count that president duerte of philippines got to get elected.

She also isn't taken into account the article is about REPORTED rape. Most rape is unreported meaning the true number is unknown. It could be less of a rarity than we actually know.

If 4% is 2500, how much will 96% make? Exactly, and THAT is the "ordinary reaction" I'm talking about.

As for the blow, I don't know which part of you it reached, but I can see that was painful.

Did u even read the other 2 parts. the blow was just so low u cant even see over your own pride that what counted as rape the action and all doesnt look like rape to u just cos there was an orgasm at the end. If theres no means no, struggle and use of force its still rape. In this context like what Anoni Grrl said its rape fantasy or forces seduction trope. Not a hint consensual. If u go any further itll just look like youre denying yourself to cleam up your act as the "im always right with my 'cool' vulgar personal attacks" as youve done in your past comments. Also... how about 80+% rape/ uke seme books out of 6007 manga sound to you?

You can pitch your fits without a hint of decorum, but that just makes.you the pissiest bitch in the forum

Do people rape they rape, they rape every where, females rape too. They rape in all countries. What does the U.S jail sys. have to do with anything? There are a lot of innocent people in jail in a lot of count. for diff. reasons ?Are you here to condem the US or talk abt. rape? the US keeps stats on every thing we know who is in jail and for what can;t say that abt. some count. We don't even know the true count . Mistakes do happen here when we find them we fix them. I'm not saying it does not happen. but some people in jail here have more rights than free people in other count.I;m not saying this count. is perfect. I never would you keep harping on how bad it is makes me wonder if you are here to talk abt. rape at all. I'm done go spread your manure else where.

Look, kiddo, unless you start making some sence and reply to MY words, I'm not going to pay you attention, no matter how lonely you are and how desperate you are for attention. Because you are boring and much too thick. And I'm not gonna be your therapist.

I respect the fact that you are speaking for yourself. The "swish" or "poofta" image of gay men was prevalent in the west at one time too. I think that changed most when gay men who were prominent in the entertainment industry started making stories that represented gays differently. Politics helped too.

What do you think about the rape issue?

I just re-read your post and you are quoting someone else's comment on *another* forum. So everything I said about you speaking for yourself was wrong. The fact remains that the people posting *here* seem to be speaking on behalf of people who did not come here to post. That makes it different.

You are choosing to bring the issue here, to this particular forum, and to this thread instead of a general discussion page.You are not even talking about the rapes or stereotypes specifically in *this* manga. You are coming to a fan space on behalf of people who bever asked you to post here instead of either going to a general or political discussion board.

Maybe if you cared about change, you would create manga you want to read?

Any sex without consent is rape. The harm comes from the lack of consent. Organism is a physiological reaction, and sometimes survivors do orgasm--but tat does not mean they were not violated. Sometimes children who are being sexually abused orgasm and their abusers use that to make them feel guilty and complicit in their own abuse. They psychological damage is still horrible. These rapists and abusers do not deserve medals. An orgasm does not mean anything like that is real life. Many survivors, particularly males, become aroused and even orgasm. See http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape.

There is no legal or stand dictionary definition of rape that has an exception for the body function according to it;s biological dictates. The point still remains is that in fictional rape, we can suspend disbelief and allow for a universe where the victim enjoys it and does not perhaps have the damage the occurs in real life.

Except that the Hawkeye initiative is funny and they made their own page and their own art instead of going to comic fan forum pages and lecturing the fans about how the images are bad.

:) HEHE LOL

From juridical point of view - yes, that's why I still call them victims. But, unless phisical or psychological damage is done, and those "victims" describe the rape as "the best sex in their life", I don't take those victims serious. And my point was that having orgasm during rape is not "an ordinary reaction". As for Azusa, it's not only orgasm, but many other things, which I will discuss later in #Karino/Azusa, that tell me that it's not rape that bothers him.

I don't know that Azusa called the rape the best sex of his life, but if he did it would be cool because he is a fictional character and it's not real. The main thing here is that rape as a story element is different than real life rape.

I beg everyone pardon, I can't answer now, I will read all of this answers later. In the meanwhile, thank you for answering me, I'm really curious about your reactions.

"U gotta make some sense" Says the one who's going to shut off cos she know she got owned.

That person doesn't need a doctor, u need it more to treat ur 3rd degree BURRNNSSSS

"You can pitch your fits without a hint of decorum, but that just makes you the pissiest bitch in the forum" Someone got u good. Trust me.

No, those words belong to a group of women in rl, that were attacked by a rapist in the mask (that was a famous topic in the news). I was little back then and rape was something horrible on the level of murder for me, so I was totally confused and that's probably the reason that story got stuck in my head. Why would those women repot to the police I still don't understand. I just learned eventually that people are different, that I can't always judge by myself.

P.S. I will talk about Azusa later on in my topic.

Well, I don't know why individuals say what they say or what defense mechanisms may be at play, but when it comes to matters of biology and psychology, I have to go with the experts. In real life, any sex without consent is rape, and even if survivors had a biological reaction it doesn't mean they consented or that they should feel guilty, dirty, or in any way responsible.

But fiction is different.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/college/news/a30507/sexual-assault-misconceptions/
Pay attention to point 14

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?forum_id=2&thread_id=1518263

There could be more people who sexually react to rape even if they do not enjoy it



http://www.survivormanual.com/2011/02/what-if-my-body-had-a-sexual-response-during-rape/

The women who said it was the "best sex of their lives," it's natural to have such feelings. It is An ordinary reaction and psychologists say so as it is a biological and evolutionary condition that is in place for these women. saying that it's not ordinary is like how some of the ppl in the comment saying rape fantasies are not ordinary.

http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/581/anatomy-of-doubt?act=0#act-0

And this podcast about rape says that even if there's a trend of victim's actions, not everyone's case is the same in how they react and how they see their rapist.

Have fun learning

Rape without consent is still rape, even if you have a massive orgasm.

The reality of rape

Experts tend to change their opinions quite often. Not that long ago being gay was considered an illness. But that's just remark about experts. As for the rape, I've said enough. Last I remember - this is not some rape forum. When it comes to Azusa, he doesn't belong to that 4% devostated by rape, but opposite body reaction group, but as I said, I'll talk about it later in #Karino/Azusa.

Homosexuality as an illness disappeared from the DSM (the statistical manual of mental disorders) since the III number (1980).
Azusa wasn't devastated by all the rapes because he's a fictional character. A consistent part of rape victims fall ill with PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder).

It is still rape dude. Rape fantasy but still rape. There are clear signs that it is in the body movement and language of karino and azusa. I cant believe that from saying that fans can differentiate real rape and fantasy, someone is downright mixing things up and claiming that its not rape just cos it feels good. This is not the case where we dont know what happened to the victim and are therefore dubiou of their 'lies'. We see the forced imagery, the nos and the donts, etc etc all penly and obviously. Little to No willing and mutual agreement, no safe words etc etc. Theres also the case of stockholm syndrome to think about and other things about rape that starts to mess with ye head. 4% is still debated. Another study shows that it is 86-7% of women who have felt something or lubricated themselves while being raped. And the main point is that it is perfectly normal and ordinary to do feel that way. We can accept rape fantasy but youve crossed the line too far by saying its not rape just because on the outside he looks fine and not devastated like what a victim should stereotypically act like. You dont need to be devastated and all hysterical to account for as a victim but scientific evidence and criminal experts. Are you trying to get the "rape is wrong" people to come back? Theyve died down cos of the evidence of rape fantasy that benefits women. So lay low bro because i feel that you dont understand what rape is.

And let's please make a distinction between an orgasm and enjoyment. You can orgasm and not enjoy it at all.

The orgasm, in some cases, can be an automatic nervous system response due to fear and/or stress. Logically I'm talking about real cases in real life. Most part of yaoi stories represent a decontextualized reality.Please, it's only fiction.

I dun get what do u mean by *another forum*
His points about sg is pretty genuine and https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ilOa3E4U5FY
says that his experiences in japan is genuine too. I dun think u can blame him for postinf here. He was responding to your comment that went along the lines of people who are speakinf on behalf of someone else are dubious and the gays dont mind it at all. (Sorry if i misread that). So where else was he supposed to post his response but this thread, personally to your comment. I dunno... i think it would be nicer if you had asked him for his purpose if you werent sure instead of scrutinising the 2 paragraph comment and bashing hjm according to your own assumptions. That was pretty mean of you

YOU do know she meansヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

Now im even more confused

You've just confirmed what I said ;)

I gave your ideas a better shape. ;)

I mean that the person reposting this comment is not the original author of the comment and the person who wrote the comment did not ask for it to be posted here, in a Caste Heaven discussion. The person reposting the comment is speaking for other people, and not for her his own self and choosing to bring comments made by other people in other forums here.

I never said "gays" don't mind it at all. I said that different gay people have different opinions (just like different women have different opinions) and that the people posting here in the Caste Heaven comments seem to be talking on behalf of other people instead of speaking for themselves. What I mean is, I see no one here, in this Caste Heaven fan space, saying "I'm a gay man and the rapes in Caste Heaven really bother me."

Why do you think the person reposting someone else's comment from a totally different discussion is even a male?

In what way? Well, since I don't see that..

I wanted to say only: a scientific shape. Excuse me but my English sometimes is poor. :)

Let me explain a bit more. I feel as if people who do not usually read Caste Heaven started coming here to talk about rape in yaoi (as opposed to going to a general discussion page or political forum). I started to hear people say "we" [the fans being lectured to] should think about "them" [the group being spoken for by people who may not even be members of that group]. I happen to know some people who regularly post here (and on other Mangago yaoi comments sections) are part of the LGBT+ community (hell, even I am bisexual), so it seems weird to me that strangers seem to be telling fans why fans need to be more sensitive to this "other" group. Granted, I know more lesbians and bisexual women who like yoai than gay men, but there are some gay men who read it.

Now, if a gay man reading yoai wanted to sincerely tell me his concerns about Caste Heaven, that would be one thing. At least he'd be speaking for himself and his reaction to this specific manga. But when people who may not even read Caste Heaven come to a comments section about Caste Heaven to speak on behalf of people who are quite capable of speaking for themselves when they want to do so, it strikes me as kind of patronizing. Maybe that's why I seemed "mean" in my response.

So scary to find such a serious topic under such a stupid comment as my own was, mostly due to my chronic insomnia. I'm so saddened by the argument itself I don't even know where to start. I agree with those writing that rape is rape even in case of body reaction; mine was irony, pure and simple. Because rape starts in the victim's mind. But Azusa's reaction is simply that of a manga character. I mean, c'mon, we all perfectly see he felt somehow for Karino; in real life he wouldn't. Period. There are victims in love with their tormentors, yes, but those people do not have Azusa's profile. My all life I saw people blaming on art for crimes. If someone does something disgusting after reading a book/watching a movie/listening to a song etc., the problem doesn't lie in the art itself but in the subject. Yaoi as a genre is based on forced sex (sorry for underlining something so banal). I think we can all agree that first chapter was, still, exceptionally incisive: it shocked almost everyone. That's why we are reading it. Because the story works. It's real good to see such an awareness among young people (forgive me if you are not that young, I don't mean to disrespect anyone by saying "young") but a manga forum is the wrong place to worry this much, because it's art, and art is supposed to be provocative. The idea that everything the artist creates must "respect" people's feelings scares me to death. You know what kind of society produces a kind of art that is absolutely respectful? …totalitarian ones. This dramatic approach to art is the beginning of repression, not of a greater respect. Art is a catharsis. There's only one reason why someone rapes someone else: because they want to. Readers who goes around disrespecting other people, well, they didn't find that lack of respect in what they read, it was within themselves.

Agree! :)

From where did this repost come from? It feels genuine to me. He did say he's gay and he himself also feels concernes for how he's represented not just rape is wrong per say. Maybe he misunderstood your comment and replied to you. That isnt a repost unless you find the exact comment. I think the reason why he didnt go all out comment is because he is also aware that rape fantasy is important part of women sexuality as stated in tbe heated comments below so he's just saying that he's concerned like the others about representation because of the many mangas about the same stereotype. Well now im just speaking for him. You just have to wait for him to come back and clarify things out with him. I think he's speaking the truth and for himself because asian countries have an even more complicated issue of homosexuality that stems from representation. I come from Myanmar and when i explain the term gay all they thought was guys who are extremely lustful girly whiny stereotypical transexual that they see all over on television and main stream media and couldnt understand how a guy even though hes manly could love and find a male body attractive. So yea, genuine comment, respect him for respecting yaoi yet daring to point out his own opinions.

And PTSD is not consistently obvious. People can have PTSD and still crack inappropriate rape or trauma jokes because they are trying to come to terms with what they thought would happen and what really happened in real life. They will smile, laugh and talk like a normal character. Like listen to the podcast Anatomy of doubt. Ive had PTSD when my sister died infront of me and i didnt know it even though it kept tugging at me subtly. I also couldnt go into those stereotypical devastation but just a mundane numb feeling which hardly anyone noticed because i just went on about my life without knowing that i was that affected. The symptoms just.became apparent after a long time (around 1 and a half years) where everything just makes me feel agitated at one point and the next minute it disappeared. It took me 5 years to get over it and talk about this openly. Azusa is affected not just the result of rape but all his years crashing down on him as seen in his relationship with his mom and his aloof, sometimes spaced out and closed up distant character. but as we all know, we cant tell whether someone is affeced just by being a mini sherlock and looking for obvious signs. I wouldnt blame it solely on the rape because its a fantasy, but its a rape when you see one whether you see obvious signs of trauma or not

When I first read it, I thought it was a person posting his own thought here, and responded with that belief. Then I re-read it and it seemed like a comment from the youtube video where they were talking about the onee stereotype. So I thought the paragraph after the links was copied and pasted. I don't see it now--maybe I did make a mistake. If I am wrong, I am sorry.

If the comment was actually written by a gay man posting here after reading Caste Heaven, I do respect him and I am very sorry.

But the stereotype issue is different from the rape issue--and Caste Heaven isn't really full of that stereotype.

I also want to add that I know there is discrimination and stereotypes. That is a good topic for general discussion or a political forum. I'm not sure it applies to Caste Heaven.

I believe the best way to change stereotypes is for people to write their own stories and change the narrative. I'm not being mean--but how how can you expect women writing erotica for women to write the stories that change how society as a whole sees gay men? That's like expecting the heterosexual porn industry to write women's stories in a way the breaks sexists stereotypes. Women can't depend on pornographers to portray them realistically. (Have you seen some of the busty women in hentai? You can't walk with boobs that big). Gay men can't depend on yaoi to portray them realistically. Gay men have to write their own stories for the world to start seeing them the way they want to be seen.

I don't mean to sound harsh or unsympathetic. It's not that I don't care about LBGT+ issues, it's that I think that yoai is itself a kind of fringe genre, one that's often labeled "harmful" even though it is not. It's main purpose is to be erotica aimed at a primarily female audience. Some gay men also like it, and that's great, but it's purpose isn't really to educate people about real gay men. I like many yaoi stories that break the stereotypes and I wouldn't mind seeing more. I just don't like feeling like people are coming into a place where fans discuss Caste Heaven and blame it for all the world's evils.

That is why people are posting their comments about how they felt provoked instead of chains of head nodding and blending in. Even Disney have a fair share of negative comments ranging from Stockholm syndrome in beauty and the beast to snow white's almost too unreal character especially when written by an all male scriptwriter group. even though they do not know all kinds of perspectives, they changed and they hire experts on race and gender to come in and advise the plot. They take time to research and plan and thus we have the new good influences like frozen's empowerment (Let it go is said to be related to the topic of coming out and many want Elsa to be lesbian in the next movie) and zootopia's race and gender topics and even sexuality in the nudist club scene. Barbie had a lot of comments for normalising the "unattainable figure" which did affect people to undergo drastic surgeries and also body shaming. And they did change.



"There's only one reason why someone rapes someone else, because they want to"

In the manga fantasy, it is usually because of love and lust ( not talking about caste heaven. Just all rape tropes in general)

In reality. A study shows Most Rapist commit crimes because they want to overpower, humiliate and harm their victims.


The artists don't need to respect people's feelings, but they need to respect the facts about who they are representing especially if they are women and they are going to write about gays, they can do that researching them and keep them in mind when they make and follow tropes that dominates most of their mangas and keep a healthy dynamic where the rape, relationship inequality etc etc are not a normalising force. For example, if I'm writing a story about tribes (even if fictional) I would at least have to research about tribes and plan out a deeper background to my characters like Their in depth history, their social behavior and values that the city life lack and not "They look exotic! they wear fancy hats! They have gibberish names without a rhyme or a reason. And their society is very backwards and they only need to learn 'civilized' values of the 21st century."

And rape is still a rape even if it's your boyfriend, crush or anyone if there is no mutual consent, contract, safe words and one sided forcing. It is rape when someone ignores the dignity and right to refuse of a person to violate him or her.. Support Rape Fantasy, Don't Deny Rape

There is more than a type of PTSD. The DSM recognize three types (an acute stress disorder, a chronic stress disorder, and a delayed onset stress disorder ) In the case of PTSD we can have an entire range of symptoms that can be not that evident -only a doctor or a psychiatrist can make the correct diagnosis. It's normal to respond to a situation that cause allarm with stress (it's a mechanism of survival), the problem is when a problematic situation cause a constant/considerable state of stress/allarm in a person. The disorder is provoked by a extreme traumatic stressor involving the victim himself/herself or witnessing an event that involves another person (death, serious injury, rape). There are differences between the Dsm IV and the Dsm 5 about the diagnosis but I don't have the books with me at the moment. But- as I said before- I don't know if it is the case to be so worried about the characters of a manga that uses overtones and so much drama to entertain audiences.

here I must add something to your very respectful words (I mean you're always very correct choosing your words, which I admire in others). The world as we are experiencing it now it's becoming more and more full of borders - not only physical but identity's borders. Everyone is starting to believe that is a great thing to respect identities at ANY cost. But, as well as any kind of people should get respect, they should because of their humanity that bind us all together, not in force of some label that distinguishes among us as sub-genres. What I'm trying to say is that is dangerous to put all of this emphasis on everyone's idiosyncrasies. If a LGBT person feels offended by a manga, the real problem is that person puts more attention in their LGBT identity than in their being rational human being, loosing sight of the fact that society is not shaped by a manga. This aspect of the question - the fact that the LGBT community is building a wall around itself instead of tearing it down, worries me more and more. If a manga scares you - you have problem with your deeper identity, in my opinion. As you pointed out, porno industry is not the right place to search for "respect", because even having fun plays a role in being free.

"The artists don't need to respect people's feelings, but they need to respect the facts about who they are representing especially if they are women and they are going to write about gays, they can do that researching them and keep them in mind", …so, once you keep in mind they are women and gay who'll be affected by your work you HAVE to keep in mind to not disrespect them, in the end.
Although I see what you mean, Art does not work like that at all (I'm talking about Art, not everything that can be written, because I always keep in mind we are discussing CH that i consider genuine Art)

As an historian, you don't have to convince me of the importance of research when writing a fictional work about something real, but true Art is not about realism and stop. Even because reality is harsh. If you honestly portrays a gay community there will be a LOT of uncomfortable zones, not necessarily stereotyped, but surely not nice to see. Masterpieces like Burroughs ' "Naked Lunch" or Miller's "Tropic of Cancer" can be consider respectful?... Not at all, though they are, as you pointed out, "realistic" but in a very destabilizing way. Miller did one of greatest human research ever, and he portrayed misery at his peak. Women? A hole to be filled. That's what he experienced. Through that experience of emptiness he pictured the disaster coming from the Great Depression; humanity's fall from grace. Art is not about making everyone feeling comfortable but revealing, instead, how uncomfortable reality is. There's a deep difference between being historically or sociologically accurate and being politically correct. Taking care of everyone feelings is nice, but it's not Art, is political correctness. So, yes: you have to deal with the facts, knowing them, but the more you know the more disrespectful the work will come out. That's what make people crazy. A story like Chaste Heaven make everyone feel uncomfortable because, besides the unrealistic "teachers-know-it-all-but-do-nothing" frame… we all feel it is extremely realistic. And it offends us. We don't like being reminded how bad we are as a society.

[and I might put in doubt that teachers pretending not to see are truly unrealistic. I personally know someone who's been bullied heavily in school and teachers turned their head, not to the extend of tolerating rape, but still. That's even part of the fascination this story had on me in the beginning. It reminded me of those friends of mine]

Laws, films books, lit., do not change societies views. they reflect the changes in society. People living every day lives amongest socitey is what changes the group dynamics. Laws have already changed. they changed with the original civil rights movement, but there are people who still want others to think there is some thing left to fight against. you cannot discriminate against any one in this country now for any thing .Even an EX-con(new law ). This maybe should not be on a yaio board but we have to move from our divides to what makes us WE The People.

That's ok, it's just my point was that experts can make mistakes, you can't always consider their opinion as an absolute fact.

Well said. I would add that how a writer approaches a given subject depends on the intended audience and that even large commercial media companies such as Disney change only as much as their intended audience or consumer seems to want change. For example, Disney changed because its market did. It didn't do research because it wanted to represent people more accurately; it did market research and tried to appeal its audience. It didn't hurt that it started hiring and promoting more women and a more diverse workforce (because the best way to change the narrative is to get involved in telling the story). Disney isn't about education or research (Did you see Pocahontas?). It's about reaching a target audience.

If someone is writing a historical novel, they should research the period. If someone wants to write better fiction, that person should probably do research in order to flesh out characters. But the level of research and realism changes depending on the purpose of the work and the target audience.

I still think it's silly to demand women writing erotica do research into real gay men. Erotica isn't about real men (or women). MF erotica has heterosexual men who don't act like real men because they are acting the way some women would like to see men act. I have yet to see men in real life who act like men in romance novels. Erotica isn't necessarily written to be realistic. If the mangaka wants to do research to tell her story better,fine, but women aren't responsible for telling gay men's stories--that is up to gay men.

Add as much as you want. I really do mean to be respectful but you give me too much credit. I have my bad days and sometimes I make mistakes. I also talk/write too much (I also have insomnia sometimes). But I mean well. :)

I agree with everything you wrote here. Thanks for explaining it.

I could say something about insomnia making people too prolific in writing ;)
Your previous comment is truly interesting, it leads us to another step: is an Art Masterpiece meant to reach an intended audience?... I can't imagine Proust worrying about, well, any kid of public at all, while writing the Recherche (honestly think he was out of his mind doing that, that's why I love him). However, he shaped an entire century with his influence. That was a direct consequence oh his creation, that, obviously, cannot be taken as an example because masterpieces are exceptions, not rules.
Disney follows a market (I remember I saw Pochantas. I never felt compelled to watch it again, it must mean something) so do most artists, in order to survive the market. Mangakas surely are among the latter. You reminded me of something Dalì said "the artist should not worry about being contemporary. An artist can only be contemporary". Of course, he was speaking for real great artists as himself. Maybe we call artist too many "honest professional". Although I clearly see you're right, and 99% of artists do worry about the reception of their work, I think the "contemporary artist" is the one that shapes a new pattern and, in that sense, violate any existent rules, dissolving borders.

Does Art have to worry about a target? Or is it is Art because it creates a new one?...

I think in it's highest form, art is about self-expression. It is personal but it also transcends the person. The best work evokes something from the audience. It provides a unique perspective that still connects with people in some way. At its core, what is essential is the vision of the artist.

I think for forms of communication, the intended audience matters. If the primary intended audience is the creator, then that's fine too. Sometimes people write stories to please themselves and if those stories speak to others, that's just a bonus. If the work is meant to reach a specific group, then sometimes feedback from that group helps improve the work. I'm not saying it's necessary, but it helps when you are developing a specific skill and building your craft. If the aim of creating something is to make a point or have a certain impact, you need to find ways to do that effectively.

I think for commercial products, the intended market matters because the purpose is to make money.

Additionally, when it comes to feedback and criticism, the chosen forum matters. Of course, there is room for all sorts of opinions and for negative reactions but the intended audience for such reactions matters too. If an author asks me to be a beta reader, I will give different feedback than if I am writing a review for other readers. Both reactions are honest, but they have different purposes. If someone asks me fact-check a piece of writing, I will look up everything. If I am reading for fun,I will probably only notice errors that jar me out of the story. If I want to vent, I try to find people who are open to letting me rant but I don't contact the author to give unsolicited suggestions on how to improve.

I am going to make a confession. I thought 50 Shades of Gray was poorly written, and I only made it through the book by following people who were making fun of it chapter by chapter. I cou7ld have just not read it, but I found the snark blogs to be funny. I would never contact the author and demand she write better and I would not go to fan forums to tell them how awful it is--but when there are people making fun of it, I snicker. I understand it speaks to many people and that's great for them. But when I read descriptions of a bespoke men's suit hanging off the hips of the main character, I thought "Why didn't the editor tell James men's suits shouldn't fit like that?" and the answer is that for this author and her fans, those facts don't matter. Would I have liked the book better if she had done more research into how BDSM really works? Hell yes. But that doesn't matter to her and her huge success with people who don't care if it is unrealistic. They like what they like and it's not meant to be real or represent actual BDSM. I'm still going to make fun of it now and then, but I am not going to a 50 Shades fan site to tell people who like the books how they need to be more responsible in their choice of fiction because James didn't research real BDSM.

I guess I feel protective of yoai. I don't think it's perfect. If someone I know is a fan makes a joke about self-lubricating anuses, I will laugh and maybe make another joke if one comes to mind. I feel safe making fun of those types of unrealistic quirks with other fans. But if someone who doesn't seem to like yaoi starts lecturing others about how unrealistic it is, I feel defensive. It's okay if someone doesn't like something or part of a story doesn't work for them, but I want to feel people on the fan pages are fans in that they actually like reading yaoi as a genre. I feel that is someone is not actually reading the story, they should find someplace else to talk about why they don't like yaoi. Maybe that's wrong of me, but it's how I feel.

I like your passion, and I substantially agree with you on everything. I must admit I didn't post to defend yaoi as a genre, although I love it, because I think the genre and its authors will survive superficial criticisms, but I was really disturbed by how seriously people tend to debate an argument that is meant to be entertaining, forgetting the essential notion that if someone is influenced by a piece of art in a negative way the issue lies somewhere else.

I never criticize if I'm not really forced to. I think people should focus on supporting the things they're interested in, remembering that polemics fuel the fire of fame as well as appreciation.
Since you named it, I consider 50SOG the kind of crap that shouldn't be legally allowed to be printed, because trees are cut down to print books and we live in a digital era where trees are disappearing, so crap can be digitalized but this is just me dreaming about a parallel universe where people connect their brain and do not buy awful books. It's not criminal to say openly that a particular title, which is made fun of by every acculturated reader, is not a decent book. 50SOG is really the lowest kind of book ever and I'm not referring to its contents, which are, btw, edulcorated.
I'm talking about style. My life is easy - I let Wilde's principle "books are well written, or badly written. That is all" guide it. When I say i dislike a book it does not depends on how high it ranked the bestselling position. I open it casually, and it is good or it is not (of course, I mean in my own language. Whereas I can say when a book is excellent in english, I'm not that sure I could judge so quickly when it is not bad nor really good). An expert reader does not need other's opinions and will hardly disagree when reading what will later be called a "good book". When people defend in front of me mediocre books I fell sorry for them, but I don't go intentionally on a forum to insult them, because, as you said, if that book satisfies them, well, it's a good thing in a world full of horrific events. If I want to debate, I make politics. But I let people being happy with their passions.

"The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame" Oscar, again. I'm pretty confident he would have loved yaoi, too, as well as self-lubricating anuses.

Oh, wow, I've just noticed that half of the comments are from my passionate fan with numerous accounts, heh. Honey, it's not healthy to be THAT obsessed with someone. And check your glasses asap as I told you, cause your are replying to some imaganery comment, that I've never posted.
http://static.yourtango.com/cdn/farfuture/9LBR8VDPSx27frKfpCsLBE1QzufTyq7yOrIHRA4IR90/mtime:1378839470/sites/default/files/image_list/haters.gif

Me too, aside from rogi’sequel, I’m hoping scarlet beriko would eventually continue nozomi and tatsuyuki’s story, just can’t get enough of them..

...even though I do not exactly ship Rogi, I see why she makes a story just for him. Easy to predict, in the end everyone's gonna be so "oooooh poor, sweet Rogi" but I won't. I can feel he's sincerely sad for loosing love of his life (Tatsu's father) but the following was an horror movie. He escaped death because the son is clearly like the father, a total bottom. But, still, Rogi's a bastard. Its' vaguely disgusting, the idea of a man like that being a father. What if someone would do the same to his own precious daughter? I don't think that a good reason in the beginning justifies whatever comes next. This is just my personal opinion, btw. I will read it for sure, because I adore her craft. BUT I hope for a TastuxNozomi sequel as hell.

I know that it would have sounded as a critic to you and it was NOT I swear it! You take your time and skills to give us the possibility to read, and I'm really thankful. I thought it was the story itself. I absolutely have n clue any longer who the father is, I'm not even really sure wheter he's a real father both to Michiru and Shiou, it's not your fault! I guess sensei likes to create complicated plots with a lot of "hooks" for the future, and then, she systematically forget about them. So the public get frustrated. Please accept my sincere apologize if my words offended you.

I'm feeling very bad for hurting you, please remember I'm not a native english speaker so my ability to express my opinion is very limited! You did your job at your best, I can only thank you and please, don't stop! I've been waiting like, forever, to read this story translated! I really think the author tricks us, sometimes. Let me leave you with a huge thank you!

Let's stop being sorry, both of us! I think in the end we understood each other, I'll never get tired of how adorable people are on this site, it's a special community where we try to be nice with each other, isn't marvelous? I love it. It's refreshing after some many on-line places where you star saying "hallo" and 37 people get mad because you could have meant something rude about their relatives who had a bad morning...

my pleasure ;)

I'm just asking you this out of curiosity...you write fics? :P

Anyway, I'm going to argue with you a little (in the best kind of way because I generally like your comments, they're serious!) and because I see you in my favs ones commenting (I'M NOT STALKING YOU!) but, don't you think that maybe that's what they needed? I mean, in the context of the story, they always found the way in the middle of sex (hot HOT sex always) to be honest with each other (especially Keiichi because it was the way he found to make Shingo being raw and honest about them, about him)

I really did like this ending and to be honest probably I wouldn't like it that much if instead of this, they were arguing, crying, screaming at each other, I mean it's not the kind of drama (or that kind of drama) that we used to see in them, and maybe I would say...but that's not them. They weren't like this before, why now?

I think they reach the peak in terms of "maturity" in their own way and for me, that's was so cool.

Considering this is the 6th story in the Black Cat series I'm guess it's just the end to this one. More than likely there will be another sequel.

I hope there's a story of Rio when he's older!!!

….I guess I have been part of this site for quite a long time, but never did an account so, now that I did, I'm having fun commenting seriously, I even plan to stop soon, lol! I can't go on pestering everyone! And yes, i do write, but I'm not commenting because I consider myself one to "judge" (I hope I do not give this impression, if I did, I apologize). I just comment as a fan and in this particular case, what should I say, i ADORE this author so I expect her to satisfy me 101%! Asking too much?….yawn, maybe. Btw I know you're right, is just that there is still so much left unspoken and I really wanted to hear Keiichi's thoughts for once. I wanted to know about Jin's relationship with Angelo…I definitely want more Jin4Ei…I want to know what makes an incredibly successful actor as Kei so insecure…and, in the end, a lot of love was due. I alway teamed with Kei, I wanted to see them together like an idiot myself… but it left me with a bitter sensation, as if… I don't know, I'm probably wrong, I really hope I'm wrong! Someone wrote we'll have to wait until the summer…well, I guess it can't be helped? I'll wait but i WANT a sequel!!

Yes. That's what I want to hear. That the real reason behind this inconsistent ending is that there will be a sequel! What it scares me is that… she's such a genius she could easily come out with a new story, and bye bye Shingo!

...something I always wanted to ask to a Rio's fan: don't you think it is a little sad for Ei that Rio doesn't seem to care about him at all?

I think there is a lot of Rio that we don't see. I think what we've been shown about Rio and his relationship with Ei is just to move along plots or cause humorous tensions between other characters. Plus to pull in the cuteness factor. There's a lot of time that's not shown between parents and kids that could reveal a stronger bond than we know of! All the little normal things like bed times, meals, play times etc. It's all the unseen part of Rio that makes me want to see more! That's why I think it'd be cool to have a story of Rio say as a teenager. Still pinning after Shingo but another love interest comes up etc etc. But from what they do show it's a bit sad for Ei lol.

I like your answer. The only thing, it's early for me to see a grow-up Rio, he's so, so, SO adorable, I'd love to see more about the three of them. Honestly, I don't understand how Kei hopes to compete with that adorable little brat, Shingo is completely in love with Rio…because Rio is like the kid he would love to have from Kei. A story where for some reason they had to take care of him for some chapters would be hilarious! I can totally figure Kei's face out while he tries to pretend he's not madly jealous!

Haha for sure! I'd love to see more of his cute chibi self too!

That's why I'm so reluctant to open an account! (I know eventually I'll do it anyway) I'll go to every damn thing I love, spreading non-stop all my nonsense whatsoever! HA!

You give me the impression that you write for the way you comment, you really get involved with the story and share with us your impressions with a very complete analysis of the characters and you're very objective in your words. It's not the first time that I'm all..."mmmmm, this gal/pal must write seriously", maybe it's just me but generally I'm right :D

It's hard tho, being objective if you're a die hard fan of the artist, you're right, you want 101% and also, you're expecting something that will satisfy your demands. It's quite normal that. And she's wonderful, Sakyo is in the top of my top 10 and of course we want something almost perfect from her hell yeah! For me, she reached my expectations with this ending, mostly because I bought it like "Shingo's feeling developments"...maybe if she writes something like a side story with Keiichi's impressions, we could get more of that something that's missing.

But probably I'll want first something related to the Big Brother too...this is far from over really!! I hope that. Or at least that's what I'm expecting.

I want to thank you for your words. You actually really surprised me. I send you a huge hug and I encourage you to make an account…it is really useful, in the end, I was getting crazy with too many authors to follow, it's much easier having an account. It even allowed me to contribute (a very little) translation for our favorite mangaka… I know it's silly, but it made me incredibly happy, I bragged a lot with all my friend who were like "…uhm? What kind of stuff do you read????". I'm seriously wondering why I didn't study japanese in the first place.
... you know writing "seriously" is different from being good, I love stories, I just can't stop trying to learn. I think Sakyo is very good. Very good. That's why Im not convinced with this ending. Is she holding back because she wants to develop in a new volume? That's what I'm hoping for. I probably got to affectionate to Shingo. I wanted to see him reassured - I know Kei has full right of being tired of his shilly-shalling, but when you come from a past like Shingo's… you need love. Not a partner that lies behind your back, no matter what (I'm sure Kei wants to "protect him, but, still). Shingo is a wonderful character. So full of depth and shadows. I want him to be mine! Btw, thanks again: you made my day!

Depends on which corners you frequents. ; )

+1000000000!!! Agree!!!

true.

I can't believe I just accidently hit annoying. I agree with you (though I don't think she was rude). I make stupid typos all the time, but I usually don't click by mistake.

It never stop surprising me how nice everyone is in this community, really ;) please, don't mind.

wow i can really feel how much u hate him with a burning passion XD

(づ￣ ³￣)づ

Sorry I didn't mean to push the button :

don't mind! everyone is so nice in this community, really.

Maybe I should open an account here to leave "thumbs up" to every fabulous comment here, I'm still giggling with most of the things you've said here, especially with this: "this is good writing, when you create successfully such a poetic faith in the readers that everyone teams with a bunch of assholes, me included." Completely agree. But, there's some things that not exactly I dislike, more like, wait...you're still a yakuza Tatsu, why you're not giving Rogi what he deserves for how he's using you? Because deep down you're not such the badass that you're suppose to be? That's the only explanation that I can come up with the totally cheap excuse to present "hot scenes of S&M" that is, between two of the characters. And again, not that I'm complaining, just that for me lose a little of the sense of the plot, for me at the end is just the rebel child who doesn't want to be what's marked in the path for him and just go with the flow. In general I don't buy the reason the mangaka used to justify all the S&M according with the main plot: Yakuzas... but I'm still all in with this story because of the art (DAMN) and Nozomi is just a beautiful, wrecked man that even he took advantage of the love of his life at the beginning, he's still innocent and pure? in a kind of way and I just want to hug him forever.

In general, it's entertaining but, I prefer Jackass!, you can even say that the plot is ridiculous but the characters all of them, are delicious and the story caught you from the very beginning and I just fell in love with the atmosphere the mangaka created for that story. Well I'm already a fan of Scarlet and I'll read everyhting from her from now on.

eh eh eh, you're right about Nozomi but in the general mood of this story I'd say "who cares, he tricked him? well done, high-five" I mean, really. The guy so much needed to be fucked against a wall, that Nozomi just did it right, then, that guy has a seriously beautiful back, so Nozomi is justified, he's pure-hearted, but his small buddy is not. The art is amazing, details are breath-taking. I'm a fan of her job too, but I honestly prefer this one to Jackass, I like twisted stories, the only thing about this one is that when they get back together it stops being twisted becoming somehow ridiculous, but in a adorable way, so it's fine with me. I want to see them again. I even forgot, while I was writing all of that crap, the real reason I commented: I wanted to point it out that Tatsu complains about Nozomi going to work in his jerseys, but when he goes back to Rogi he's wearing what I suppose to be Nozomi's jersey. Maybe to feel a little bit more brave? Very sweet detail, indeed. About S&M, you say it is because it is a yakuza story? I know what you mean, it's a recurrent theme, but here again, really, seems to be there just because they are all a bunch of perverted guys. In real life, you do that to a yakuza's son for one reason only, you want to start a war that you are sure to win, otherwise you're dead. See ya, Rogi?…No, they exchange cups. Nozomi pay attention to that boyfriend of yours he seems incapable to dislike anyone with a penis (⌒▽⌒)

Its a war you want, ehh? #－.－) * gets mouse ready * ... * Scrolls with all my might until i reached the bottom of the comment * HA! BEAT THAT! (╯°Д °)╯╧╧

lol. Peace and love :)

"Nozomi pay attention to that boyfriend of yours he seems incapable to dislike anyone with a penis (⌒▽⌒)"

LOL you're right on that! (⌒▽⌒)