The Fujoushi pinkiepie's Topics (3955)

ROFL, now I kinda want her to try going after Sangwoo.

Gotta wait a few more weeks.

You have to unclick "multiple pages" to read it

lmaooo

But it's the raws that come out on April 28th
It's published in a bimonthly magazine

Then learn how to read them? ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶
With some basics acquired you can manage it decently enough with a dictionary.

I actually have tried, and I manage it pretty well :). Of course a series a kanjis mean a different word, so what? Sometimes it requires a bit more research but honestly mangas don't have that much words to begin with, it's not like this is a novel.
Also in mangas you also actually have the pronunciation of the kanjis written on top of them in hiragana (it's done so to help younger readers), so that also makes the whole thing easier.

Basically kanjis are just kind of like letters in a way, don't think of it "changing" meaning. A kanji alone to form a word happens to mean this, the same kanji with another one means that.

You just have to start by learning hiraganas and katakanas (it took me a day each with mnemonics with the DrMoku app), then some grammar (the more you learn some the better it is of course, that's the effort you have to give here lol) and well kanjis just pick an online dictionary, get all the kanjis that way and throw them on google. Helps to know the radicals in order to use the dictionary efficiently (there's about 50 important ones).

It's no sorcery.

Get this book to start learning, it teaches you from the get-go…basic rules, the different meanings, stroke orders etc - everyone has to start somewhere : )

(My sensei recommends this book and it has taught me a lot personally so I'd say it's very good...) Things like this always take time, I think the problem is with the world now and having the whole world at our fingertips online is we expect everything to happen instantly. But not even Japanese people throughout their lives get to know every Kanji, just like British people don't know every English word.

Anyway, (Furigana helps a lot to read manga as the kanji is often spelled out in Hiragana) So just do your best!

Forgot the bladdy link didn't I (￣ε(#￣)Σ

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Basic-Kanji-Book-v-1/dp/4893580914

Although unless you plan on writing with your hand in Japanese, stroke order seems pretty useless to me, isn't it?

I'd add that for kanjis the book that helped me the most was "The Easy Way to Learn 400 Practical Kanji". It describe why that kanji looks like this, why those three together meant that, with how they all looked back when they were simple ideograms and not stylized in a squarish way (so how they looked back then, why they look like that now). They then make so much sense and they stick to your head much, much more quickly.

I'm a huge believer of mnemonics ;)

After that, I've found that memrise works tons better than any other book lol. Although do pick up a book for grammar ahaha (I actually use online courses, they're awesome but they're in French so I can't recommend them lol)

No I would never say myself that learning stroke order is useless tbh. I think learning something properly from the beginning is the foundation of learning, otherwise (to me) I see it as rather empty knowledge, there is no real depth to understanding more about the why's and how's. And to me at least Kanji is bigger than just being able to read manga etc, I want to be able to learn Japanese properly and continue to engage in a genuine way about the language etc to my native colleagues and friends.

For example take Yama 山 - the way it is written is actually based on the image of a mountain and it's very form has changed throughout the centuries. These little tid bits of knowledge and history are part of what makes Japanese so special to me as a language. For me it ties in with the very culture, the social anthropology of Japan which I myself am very interested in.

But also, I'm just old school like that though and would always push the old school way of working…...

I wouldn't say not learning the stroke order makes the language empty knowledge. I don't intend to write on paper, as already barely don't even write on paper in my native language. It's a lot of efforts wasted to me, and makes the whole learning go slower (reading and knowing how to pronounce them is enough lol). Maybe one day when I'll be advanced in reading kanjis and I'm looking for something to learn for the heck of it.

And like I said, I love learning about the origins of kanjis and mainly have used that to learn them <3

Honestly, it's like learning the stroke order of letters. Unless you aspire to study calligraphy it doesn't matter so long as your characters are legible. It does help make them look better, but that's all lol. Depends on your needs, if you write a lot it may be worth it.

But then again, that's just the way I prefer to learn. I learned English through hands-on experience, never "studied" it in a serious way. Played video games, read stuff, took a dictionary when necessary etc. I unconsciously learned tons since I first started writing on mangago 2-3 years ago, when I struggled with it. I find you end up losing the point of learning a language when studying too much.

And figure out why Japanese (and French etc.) who study English almost never seem to end up into any useful day-to-day life skills? They study it like it's some maths, a bunch of words to study then forger, they don't look to live into it.

Sure I have some grammar courses to help, but most of the time I just bump on a sentence, do lots of research until I manage to read it, and then it STICKS.

So I say read read read, then listen listen listen. The best way to learn a language is when you have something you absolutely want to manage to understand.

Basically language shouldn't be something to study (basics aside). It should be a skill you develop hands-on and is useful, linked to your interests. It's not about wanting to read, it's about wanting to read Finder; furiganas make it quite beginner-friendly. Then oh, want to write on a forum so bad (not especially learn to type in Japanese)? Go ahead and try it out, you'll learn tons from reading the answers from others and will start picking up their slang.

And oh, want to write on paper? Start doing that, search up the kanjis needed and their stroke orders and go ahead. If you write enough they'll stick as well. Want to listen to anime? Even with subtitles, you'll end up picking up their slang, tons of vocabulary, which will be useful for when you start listening with no subs.

Want to try speaking up in Japanese? Go ahead as well, don't be shy to use hand gestures if needed as well. You'll receive a lot more from their interactions than from theory on how they should talk.

Heck in English, when I was a child I was a fan of Pokemon. It stopped airing in French. I listened to the English one, being the only thing available, and learned tons just from that, much more than any courses could've, because I struggled so bad to understand even the whole meaning, words started to repeat, I could make links between how they were used, they stuck. Before I knew it I could listen to it easily, because I wanted it so bad I never abandoned.

End of ranting :P

Everyone is different, I think I explained myself quite well in how I see it. I feel like the counter points are trying to make my point of view less valid but no matter what it's how I feel.

Like in everything ppl are different and yeah of course you have your own way, and that works for you which is great…but, calling learning stroke order 'useless' is just trying to make the whole principle of learning to write defunct, isn't it? (As you can say the same for any language) And as I wholeheartedly believe in education for all perhaps part of me takes personal offence to that sentiment. Yes you can get away with not learning stroke order if you only want to read kanji and read your raws quicker, of course you can because you can do what you want. But what I was saying was why not push ourselves to learn more if we can? Get a deeper meaning and understanding behind our knowledge? (rhetorical question…) in my case I find it an enjoyable part of the process anyway and I will always, always be an advocate for thoroughness over speediness lol.

Anyway, I think we are just on different pages to be honest and as we have a hugely different approach to learning it's impossible to reach a common ground, we shall have to agree to disagree ╮(￣▽￣)╭

It's about how you approach language. Empty knowledge means something different to everyone :)

I think languages serves to communicate. If I can communicate without learning stroke order, then I don't think it's very useful. Even letters I don't all write them with the "correct" stroke order.

No offence meant but why push myself to learn something that isn't going to be useful? (⊙…⊙ )

I mean, I get random knowledge can be intellectual porn to some (me included)... But I don't even see a real deep meaning in stroke orders aside from calligraphy.

"Always be an advocate for thoroughness over speediness lol."

I think you misunderstood me. I advocate "thorough exposure to communication early on". I don't believe in "study then you'll be fluent".

It's not about knowledge. Someone in Japan can have A grades in English, drop in the USA, and find that they understand nothing. We need physiological training much more than "knowledge".

It's not about knowledge. Someone in Japan can have A grades in English, drop in the USA, and find that they understand nothing. I find we need physiological training much more than "knowledge" when it comes to languages.

True, best way to learn a language perfectly is in live in it's country for like 2 years min. Specially for proper pronunciation and informal speech. Especially a lot of westerners have pronunciation problems and loads of Asians suffer from same problem too.

I'd assume so, though I sadly never had any experience of the sort (which is why my spoken English is still a bit patchy, though I can do interviews just fine). Ahah, well I do with what i can, my city has a lot of Japanese tourists :3

But yeah, pronounciation aside; comprehensional input it is called. You don’t derive meaning from the language, but from the interaction. When you first understand the message, you unconsciously acquire the language.

It's through that process that we learned our native language as well, and shouldn't be neglected for future ones :)

Yeah, comprehensional input is something I experienced, I was trying to learn a language and it's pretty similar to my own native one. Even though there was some grammatical differences and letters, I could understand and speak it already in a couple of weeks.

I'm sorry - but these multiple and sporadically timed responses (not even aimed at me as actual responses) are coming across quite aggressively. It was just my opinion and I thought we were done with this? Sorry that you took it so personally but please drop it as it's being made into this huge long thing now and I don't see why you are reading so much more into what I said and continuing to post seemingly random thoughts as if it's still bothering you ten to thirty minutes later. You had your say, I had mine and then you finished off the discussion (or so I thought)

It was my opinion - are people not allowed to have them anymore? Or must you insist on telling me why your opinion is so much more valid than mine...

I'm at the job, I sporadically read your answer ╮(￣▽￣)╭

You're free to ignore me if you didn't want a debate and only wanted to throw your opinion, I thought it would be interesting to exchange more thoughts that's all :). I can come off aggressive, I suppose being on this board for so long did that to my way of exchanging in writing form in English lol.

Oh and forgot that, but also let's say someone doesn't know how to use a Japanese keyboard. But oh, there's an urgency and she absolutely has to type something with it by the end of the day or they'll lose an important contract.

Of course, she's going to learn extremely quickly with the rush of adrenaline. And it'll stick, because our brains pay more attention to stuff needed for our survival, that and those needed for our personal goals. There has to be a practical struggle.

Anyway, it's with those principles and a few more that I approach language learning. Of course I'm not trying to become a linguist though lol. Heck even in my native language, I write flawlessly thanks to having read many novels, but can't really explain why it's written in that way, especially the complex grammar rules lol (I sucked really bad at grammar tests lol). It just stuck and I instinctively write it the right way, it's by pure instinct.

Alright not more job, let's try this more thoughtfully :)

I don't understand what you meant by "I want to be able to learn Japanese properly and continue to engage in a genuine way about the language etc to my native colleagues and friends. ". Do you mean that you can't do that if you don't learn the stroke order? Because I fully agree with that sentence, but don't see how the stroke order can contribute to that in a meaningful way.

Honestly, I think this might is a case of Visual-Spatial learner vs Auditory-Sequential learners. You benefit from a sequential and orderly way of learning. Immersion works better for me.

"But what I was saying was why not push ourselves to learn more if we can?"
That applies to just about anything. It depends on what you think is worthy of your time.

"Get a deeper meaning and understanding behind our knowledge? (rhetorical question…) in my case I find it an enjoyable part of the process anyway and I will always, always be an advocate for thoroughness over speediness lol."
Again, I still don't get how stroke order would help me get that much more of a deeper meaning or understanding.

"calling learning stroke order 'useless' is just trying to make the whole principle of learning to write defunct, isn't it?"
I said it is useless if you do not plan on actually using that knowledge in a practical way, that is writing, very often.

"And as I wholeheartedly believe in education for all perhaps part of me takes personal offence to that sentiment."
I am not sure why...? But indeed, school is geared toward Auditory-Sequential learners. Alas, that type of education does not help everyone; it sure didn't for me.

So I am basically a bit confused, it seems to me that you think I think general knowledge in Japanese such as why kanjis look this and that way is useless. But I only said that about stroke order.

No LOL I don't know where you got that impression, I understand perfectly what you are saying but I'm the one who feels like you're just going off on a tangent on your own using some misinterpreted words of mine as a springboard. Sorry but just how I'm seeing it…!!!!!!!!

I said what I said precisely because (to me) stroke order* ties in a lot with learning language - period, like learning stroke order of Kanji, Hiragana, Katakana etc etc - even how we learn to write the roman alphabet in school - it's the very foundation of the written word throughout history so to me yes I would say it is a necessary skill when learning a language - hell it's how my Japanese teacher TAUGHT me Japanese, endless Q&A worksheets writing everything out in Hiragana and Katakana until I learned a little Kanji too to start adding to it before going to Japan for a year where I was still woefully unprepared for RL Japanese...

Like I said, I think being able to just read it is great, if that works for you great and if you're happy with it, even better - but as a principle I believe learning stroke order to be able to write is still very, very relevant. I'd say the same if it were Korean, Arabic, English or any other language, if I am going to learn something - I'm going to learn everything I possibly can about it.

BUT, like I also said - we are just on different pages with this - we are NOT having a meeting of the minds so we will not agree! Please, please let this be the end of this damned conversation!

Well I still don't see the practicality of it "the very foundation of the written word throughout history" doesn't tell me much as to why it'd be useful. It's wonderful in theory but can you tell me an anecdote where it was useful to you?

Really though, I've got 1 good English teacher throughout my school years, and I've gone through a lot. So sure she does the usual teacher stuff, mindless memorization and whatnot. That doesn't necessarily make someone a great teacher. Nor should anyone rely completely on them anyway, but only use them as a support (I don't know which you are, not assuming anything here). I personally find that the best ones are those that focus on what mistakes people usually do and point those out, basing their whole curriculum around that.

And well, my friend went a year in Japan without any prior learning and managed very well while learning there, so in the end you were on the same level? Wouldn't you call that inefficient?

Anyway, I guess you're looking into learning languages in a linguistic way, not in a practical way, in which case we do see that differently. But I don't think the OP wanted to get into linguistics, but rather just wanted to read mangas lol.

You're just trolling now. Your last point "not in a practical way, in which case we do see that differently. But I don't think the OP wanted to get into linguistics, but rather just wanted to read mangas lol" IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID A NUMBER OF TIMES, 'IF YOU JUST WANT TO READ MANGA THEN IT'S FINE ETC - NOW PLEASE DROP IT! FFS!!! - I gave my OPINION, just what kind of superiority complex do you have?! I'm getting such a different view of you from this and I don't think I'll be engaging with you again, on anything. Enjoy having wanky troll non-debates with Smoothie but I am not here for that. Fucking hell.

I'm not, really. If we see it differently, then why don't you tell me in what way it is practical? It's what I've been asking for a while, I'm curious here xD

It's just sad that I don't get any real explanation, or at least a non-vague one, it's not about a superiority complex (〜￣△￣)〜. I'd actually be glad to be proven wrong, which is why I asked in the first place.

I mean, I get stroke order is cool to know, but I'm fine knowing why that exists and the history behind it etc. versus actually knowing what it is for every single kanji. I don't get what that could really add, so I've been neglecting it for the moment, but you know as soon as I get a good reason I might start...

Wow this might look like it's bothering me too much to you, but I'm just the head in the clouds type, I think constantly ╮(￣▽￣)╭

But yeah, I'm the debater type, I like to shred opinions and have my opinions shredded back (though just not for the sake of shredding, but to better have an opinion of both sides). Doesn't work so well to manage the other person's feelings if they're very conflict-averse, but it helps me better see what their opinions are really about and if I should change mine. I told you if you didn't want to get into this, to feel free to ignore me; I'm not forcing you. Apparently you didn't.

I'm saddened though that instead of doing just that you've come to resort to personal attacks. While I love to attack opinions, I'm really averse to throw a "are you stupid" or in this case, "what kind of superiority complex do you have".

Not that I was all totally in the right, I'm sorry for the concern I've cause, but I'm honestly not really looking forward to engage with you again either...