amilen's Topics (54)

No, no, no, you guys don't understand the script! Ayame timelapsed INTO Yoshiwara district, and there was nothing else to do BUT prostitution for women, there! Shouhei had no other choice: all he could do was take her to one of the houses he knew was a good one. Once you were inside Yoshiwara, as a woman, you never got out, there were guards at the gates... Only the male customers were allowed out. Women who tried to escape, were immediately killed by the guards. Allowing her to be a courtesan in a good house was the best he could do for her: it was either that or let her get raped in the streets for pennies, that was the only other option. There were street hookers, miserable creatures, and there were beautiful and well-treated courtesans. Nothing else. So he did her a big favor. It helps to know some Japanese history, if you want to understand manga about Edo Era. Since it's meant for Japanese readers, the mangaka supposes everybody knows about how it went in Yoshiwara district...
So no, Shouhei is not a jerk. And Ayame is not stupid. They are two characters who find themselves fallen into the past and have to try to survive there, just like in the manga "Doctor Jin" and "Nobunaga's chef". Those have the same theme: a person from the present timelapses and finds himself in the past. Doctor Jin is about medicine, and Nobunaga's chef is about cooking. Both excellent series, by the way. And this is the same, but shoujo-style, and it happens to be about the famous Yoshiwara courtesans.

Not true at all. The only people that couldn't leave were people who had to pay off their debt which the house owns. since she didn't have any debt she could leave anytime

Exactly! But those were the only women (little girls, rather) who were EVER brought in there... ALL girls and women in Yoshiwara were once sold at a cost, and had to pay a debt. Besides, even if you winded up in there without being sold, nobody would allow you to get out anyway, since nobody would believe you if you cried: "Let me out! I only got in here by accident!" Yeah, right! Parents who loved their daughters would never let them even get anywhere near Yoshiwara; and those who went out alone, were duly warned not to ever even come close to there, since there were always procurers, paid by the Yoshiwara brothel-keepers, lurking around trying to kidnap young maidens and bring them in for free... once inside, there was no crying: I'm in here but I've not been sold! Nobody would listen. The chance a girl would end INSIDE there "by accident" was inexistent.
So no, as a woman, you never got to stay alive in Yoshiwara unless as a prostitute or as a street hooker. And you never got out.
It was even worse for those who turned out not pretty enough to be prostitutes: those were used as servants and could NEVER pay off their debt, since they were worked so hard they were old before their age and died long before, since the debts were very high. Only the well-paid courtesans were able to ever pay back their debts, and made it to become a madam on their turn. And even then, they weren’t allowed to come out, for fear of contamination by syphilis, lepracy or smallpox or so. Sometimes a very pretty courtesan would be bought by a rich man who fell for her to be his concubine: but it almost never happened that a girl could pay herself free before she died.
Still, being a courtesan was a lot better than being a street hooker or a brothel-slave girl! And bottom line: as a girl, you NEVER got out of Yoshiwara. It has been tried and tried over an over, but never with success. Trust me.

"...since she didn't have any debt she could leave anytime"
Obviously, there was no way a girl could prove she didn't have a debt; how else had she winded up in there? So no, saying "I don't have a debt" wouldn't work either. All they would have done is laugh...

u do know he sold her, and took the money without her notice right?

Didn’t make any difference whether she noticed it or not, since any girl in Yoshiwara knew perfectly well what she was brought there for, and the story being aimed to a Japanese public, the mangaka assumes his/her public knows it as well. In fact, this money wasn't really meant to "buy" a girl, but to pay for first expenses. Usually it was the parent, who had to pay a certain sum to an artesan or some kind to give his kid (boy or girl) into apprenticeship, to be taught the trade; and in order to pay off his study debt, he would work for a certain time for his/her sensei until he/she could become independent.
Now for a courtesan, who had to be taught to play instruments, calligraphy, poetry and dance, plus would need lots of jewelry and precious garments, the investment from the sensei was huge, and the parents of the girls were mostly destitute. Usually they were destined to be courtesans when they were very pretty; so they payed for their apprenticeship with their beauty, really.
The price parents got for their daughter was a tradition that came from ancient China. In China girls were really “sold” as slaves, not just to brothels but anywhere; in old Chinese, “daughter” and “slave” were in fact the same word…
As for the guy accepting the money they gave him for her, that would be totally normal, in fact it would have seemed suspicious had he not done so. All this secrecy in Yoshiwara and other red light districts in other cities besides Edo were installed by the government, who saw these places as nests of potential rebellion, and put heavy restrictions on them; but the people saw prostitution as a profession like any other woman’s profession. Not any less honorable than a hairdresser, a laundrywoman, seemstress, maidservant, umbrella maker or whatever. Only a housewife was seen as more respectable.
Besides, since the story isn’t complete, and there’s a suggestion that this man who “sells” her is actually also from the present, we don’t know what the mangaka’s plans are for the future, and so we also don’t know if this guy is planning on doing with this money… we’d best wait to judge until the story is complete.
One thing is certain though: a woman in Yoshiwara NEVER got out. EVER. (unless dead). Orders of the Shogun.

Are you serious? He is from the fucking future. He knew she is too and he does nothing but push her down this spiral of getting fucked by weirdoes and did nothing to help her. Not even one ounce of conscience in that. As a person from the future, that is one fucked mindset if he didn't actually tried to help her disguise or get out (Also, she didn't have any debt attached and she was a person from the future so I don't think anyone would even notice ot have the records to tie her down there.) The only cheap reasoning he gave was, "oh, I didn't know how to get back and that made me feel less 'manly' and capable so I totally left u in the dark and made u feel like u were the only one left in this timeline and feel that you have to battle it out yourself, plus I made you an emotional mess while you fuck a different load of ppl cos of... Love?" And the girl just accepts it, cos of... Love? For someone throwing a pity part party for not fitting in, he sure didn't have enough trouble of letting his modern day conscience go and join in the "sell random women u find" crowd. He just states in name that he loves her but after all the secrets he kept that would have given her hope, he just keeps her in the dark and equates sex with him to love and consideration he gives to her. That doesn't work that way at all. He had no trouble treating her like an object and sending her to the first brother he could remember and not tell her or listen to her troubles like a normal modern day person would. No, sir, her opinion or say doesn't matter at all, she just have to wait and get fucked while he be a "man" *insert vomit here* and do the "manly" thing of finding out ways to gat back and hold pity parties for being soooo alooone,p. Plus, when he got found out, he didn't even apologize to her or even show enough remorse to express his guilt in getting her fucked. Such a dick should go suck a dick. And it's not true that women who stepped into the yoshiwara cannot step outside. A courtesan can leave her job if a customer pays the price and she can live with him or maybe somewhere else according to her buyer. Yea, elaborate theory you made up. Haha. Even Japanese shows like Gin shows women who went out of the yoshiwara. So in fiction, there was no need to sell her apart from the fact that he's a dick. She didn't even know. And to top that off, from the guy that came from the same time as her. The only person she could have leaned on and he gave a slap in her face with that life. And then he expects her unconditional love and forgiveness cos he loves her and he just needed to untangle his tiny little sensitive feelings from being this dramatic victim, soooo outcasted by a new society... Oh... The pain... Totally just me... And not the girl I pushed into prostitution for no reason....

I'm afraid you're turning this into a completely different story in your mind, dear Anonymous! I already told you it didn't matter one bit if he’s from the future or not: he has only the choice between bringing her to the best house, or leaving her in the streets, where she'd become miserable. Either way, a woman NEVER got out of Yoshiwara, unless dead! It was a closed compound, with high walls all around, and guards at every gate. Any woman who'd dare try to leave, never mind whether she had any debt or not, would immediately be killed. They'd never ask if she had a debt; her being a woman would be enough... orders of the Shogun. I told you, the debt was a mere formality.
As for the guy, being from the future or not, that doesn't mean he hasn't got to adapt to the rules of the time in order to survive; a guy helping a woman escape was killed just as well, without asking any questions, least of all "Are you by any chance both from the future? Oh, then it’s all right!”
You mustn’t judge ancient customs by today standards. Just look at it this way: A black girl or boy gets transported from today into the South of the US, say in 18th century. Do you think it’s going to be any use crying: “I’m not a slave! I have never been baught nor sold! I’m a free person!” Everybody would have laughed, since in that place, at that time, free black people simply didn’t exist, just slaves. ALL black people were slaves, merely by the color of their skin. No need proving anything. Same thing goes for women in Edo Era in Yoshiwara. All women in Yoshiwara were prostitutes. And again: you never got out of there!
This mangaka has based her story on Historic reality, and assumes that we have some knowledge of it.

Can you fucking Google and read about yoshiwara? The washing of mud from the feet and small celebrations to any courtesan leaving the place because her debt had been paid in full amount. Where did u get your information? Some backyard anime? (So it doesn't make sense for her who has no debt to be brought to a whorehouse, he didn't even explain to her that it was a whore house or why she'sgoing there) he just dumped her there and took the money without her fucking notice. That's cruel for someone who later claims that he's fallen in love with her. Also, ur explanation telling that the guy did it cos he has to blend in doesn't justify his fucking action of just not telling her who he was and giving her a life of torture without anyone to tell her troubles to and even continued to emotionally aggravate her by saying "forget about me" after taking her vieginity and made her feel more alone and have no one to turn to. It's fuckin stupid. He's got his priorities mixed up. No one is judging him for not knowing he way for getting back. I'm judging him for managing another individual who is more vulnerable than him in the worst way possible. And the girl was just dragged about not knowing anything as a modern person
and her life was sold by a fellow future person who took advantage of that and not tell her anything and and even took the money. Even if it's to blend in it doesn't make sense cos she friggin popped out of the sky and no one gave a shit so there was no need to "blend in". The mangaka isn't painting historic reality right. It's more of he or she's just using it to justify all the backward human rights violations with the history tag and make it as if it's a legit romance. Fuck that and this disgusting make shift relationship for Otakus to fap to

I don't mind stories about yoshiwara. This just crosses the line of using history to justify the stupid plot. Not only was he a douchebag. The author has drawn and casted him as the ideal handsome man for women to pine after even if it his fault that they are whoring themselves out cos he sold them. And they should love him in silence if he leaves them. As long as he says I love you, women should just spread their legs, don't question him and meekly accept them back cos that's all they need. Fuck *insert vomit everywhere* And it's even worse that he's a person from the future. -.- it's like the author just took a story of human trafficking in the future and threw the exact characters into the past so shar it looks good on screen and legal.

Plus your example about black history is stupid. Yes they'd be taken as a slave cos all of them are systematically discriminated while not all women in the yoshiwara are courtesans or whores. It's only if they willingly sold themselves or are tricked or kidnapped. In which case... For no reason she was tricked by a person from her own fucking time. Plus, any sane person would knock their teeth out of the person who tricked them into slavery and kept so many secrets that could have at the very least supported her emotionally. Not go ditsy and spread their legs. She seemed so eager to be one its like she hardly lives in the 21sr century.. And she gets angry cos he doesn't tell her stuff as a lover? Wrong thing to be angry about! I'd be seething mad if he dares keeps more secrets from me despite the fact that he pushed me into prostitution and owes me a big apology for not telling anything at first. This girl is the typical obedient cute unquestioning candy girl created to please viewers cos how how much the guy can control her despite the multiple violations he caused. DUMB DUMB DUUUMB. This manga doesn't make an ounce of sense so fuck historical correctness. This is a violation of history itself. A hyper sexual fantasy for ignorant ppl to fap on cos their ideas of women and men relationships will never get them laid in life.

You explain yourself a bit more abusingly than I do, but will you please not limit yourself to Google to inform yourself about Yoshiwara? Everyone knows not all you find on Google is perfect and correct…
You keep making your own story, about your own feelings and standards, instead of leaving the mangaka make hers and take it as it is. And curb your hysterics a bit... it's not worth it, especially because you keep misunderstanding everything.
(I know you're going to get angry again, but I can't help that...) You keep obsessing over debt-thing, but I told you again and again that was just a formality. Girls were sold into brothels by their parents, usually out of poverty, because it was better than starving. They got some money for them, but by no way did the "women" (sometimes hardly 2 or 3 years old!) sell themselves "willingly". That, of course, never happened.
Plus, all women in Yoshiwara, in spite of your (flawed) information, had the statute of prostitutes, even the ones who did nothing but scrub the floors or cook or serve the courtesans. Only the children growing up gifted and beautiful enough to be potentially successful as courtesans, actually became that; it was the most coveted position for a woman in Yoshiwara, but it required lots of training. Girls who grew up less gifted or not pretty enough to make a successful courtesan, were kept as servants; but they were ALL sold for prostitution. And none of them ever was allowed out.
About the man, again, you’re turning him into a figment of your own imagination: the character isn’t meant to be that. You should leave it to the mangaka to decide whether characters from her manga are good or bad, at least until the story is finished, because you’re making judgements long before this series is completed, so we don’t know yet what’s going to happen, whether this guy is going to save her or not, or turning out to be a villain, you just don’t know that yet.
Again, calm down and let the mangaka tell her own story. And don’t get all worked up over this, it’s not worth it!
For myself, I have had it with this conversation, you don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to, although I know what I’m talking about.

well, you're not worth my time either. can't believe I'm talking to a kid who can't even find documents and is claiming history out of his/her ass. You don't even live in the same continent, much less know anything except the need to fap and satisfy oneself with crude cheesy plotlines. completed or not, the opening is a no no. Both of the characters are stupid.

Lol, it's been a long time since I've been called a kid, honey, I'm an old man. I know a great deal about Japan and i'ts History, much more than you can find on Google. I also happen to be a comic-drawer myself, for 30 years now, so I know what it takes to make a manga.
You don't just have your very own personal image of this manga, but also of the people you talk to, apparently! It hardly matters in which continent I live, does it?
And I don't appreciate your rude tone either. If you want to debate a subject, you should stay polite. If you can't keep your cool, you shouldn't debate; lashing out blindly and using vulgar abuse make your arguments invalid, since you're not objective anymore. First rule of debate.

Whatever, garbage reasoning is garbage, no matter how you make it sound civil. And maybe it's because of ppl like you, the standards of manga tropes are so low.

You are the one trying to justify selling of humans into prostitution without their notice or consent under the sugar coated historical tag, not me. If the story doesn't end up yet again with a ditsy female falling in love with an asshole male, maybe it's all fine and dandy. But clearly this is not where that story is going. Maybe you should ask yourself what have you been doing with your mind all your years. Since you claim to be an old man.

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just explaining the way it was in that place, in that time. (It was a lot worse in other countries in the 17th century, btw) But I don't judge, I just know what it was like. You keep confusing the past and the present, your own standards and those of a different country, culture and era, and taking Historic explanations for personal opinions...
And you are still rude.

I don't care whether I'm rude or mighty polite to you. I'm judging your justifications to why the guy still stands as a good romantic partner. I'm expressing my annoyance with it. I'm not confusing past and present. It's more of you are. Yes it's different in the past but I am sure the feelings and reactions of modern women are not like that in the manga, especially if she's time slipped and made to become a courtesan. And the guy as well. It's totally unrealistic in their interactions, their roles in their relationships. Historical accuracy my ass. Someone just ran out of ideas and farted whatever idea they could conjure up to make sex sell.

I don't remind ever having justified anything, nor given my personal opinion about the manga. The fact that the guy is depicted as a romantic partner is wholely the responsibility of the mangaka, not mine. I never said that was good or bad. I just explained how people had to behave in that place and time, and how I supposed people who "slipped" in that time and place would have to behave in order not to be killed. How the man is depicted is irrelevant to me. Maybe the author has a reason for it, maybe not. I don't care about that.
And the way you are being impolite when somebody doesn't speak exactly like you want them to, tells me nothing about this manga, but a lot about you... You have all the right in the world to disagree; I don't demand that you see it any other way than how you want to. But Historic accuracy is blunt fact, there is no disagreeing with that.
And being vulgar and rude doesn't make your words become any more convincing: if anything, it would be the opposite...

Just because of a few fucks you are going to measure rudeness by your standards and nitpick it to support your argument. You clearly are an old man. Pls don't get your little feelings hurt. Plus if you read your comments again, your ' explanation' of historical accuracy seems to be sayin that it is alright for the guy to bring her to a whorehouse, while ignoring the fact that he didn't tell her anything despite knowing her predicament and said its "normal" that she got sold by her future "romantic partner" without her notice cos it's done that way in history. Bleh. That's plenty to be pissed off about for me especially when the doe-y eyed female character just dumbly accepts everything in the name of love.

Indeed, your ideas about manners and mine are quite different, I noticed that :-P .
As I said, people's manners tell you a lot about them, and in your case it' not very flattering.
Soit, so be it.
As for the man bringing the girl to a whorehouse, which you seem to be judging such a horrible crime: you keep ignoring that in Yoshiwara, there WAS nothing else but whorehouses; so there was no place else to bring her to but to a whorehouse... All he did was pick a good one. It was a red light district, and all women were prostitutes, as soon as they entered there, and never stopped being so, until their death. So debt or no debt, kidnapped or sold, or even "time lapsed" in there, as long as you were a woman or a girl, in Yoshiwara and other redlight districts in other cities, you had the stature of a prostitute. For ever. And you never ever got to get out, whether you want to believe it or not. You insist on inflicting your 21st century standards upon a situation of 400 years ago, and basing your judgement upon that. That's bound to be impossible.
The mangaka tries to tell a story about that particular place, and expects us to know a bit of the conditions that were normal there, in order to understand her story. I don't expect you to approve of the ways women were treated in the 17th century; I don’t approve either. But that’s how it was, nothing we can change about the past. Telling how it was, and explaining what was considered “normal” back then, doesn’t imply any personal judgement.
Bottom line is: he COULDN’T have taken her anywhere BUT to a whorehouse, since there was nothing else there, and she, like any other woman, was unable to get out as soon as she was in. The guards couldn’t tell she was from the future, and even if they had been able to do so, in their 17th century-frame of mind it wouldn’t have made any difference: they would have killed her nonetheless, because all women trying to get out of Yoshiwara were ordered to be killed immediately. Regardless.
Conclusion: the only choice the man had was either bring her to “a” whorehouse, or let her be killed by the guards. Nothing else. As long as you won’t understand that, you won’t understand the basic problematic of this manga.

And you forget at he didn't even fucking tell her anything. It's okay if he takes her to a whorehouse but after he's told her about the situation, calmed her down and explain it to her why they need to survived. At the very least don't leave her in the dark while you take the money and just leave. And mr nitpicky sire, you sure know how to leave this entire chunk out for your so called "historical correctness" weeb.

Or perhaps u think women don't deserve to even have the right to have proper explanation and decide? Considering this is a modern man we're talking about.

He didn't tell her anything, indeed, but that doesn't mean I told the mangaka to do that, does it? You seem to blame me for everything that you don't like about this manga... I suggest you write the author a big letter (full of abuse, of course), along with all the problems you have with her story. And find out what plans she has with her characters! I have no idea what they are.
My guess is she won't even answer, since Japanese are extremely polite people who expect others to be so as well. Not many people have as much patience with vituperative girls as I.

As far as historic info goes, My guess is the guy-character didn't tell her he was going to take her to a whorehouse because he supposed she knew that... since there weren't any other houses but brothels in that place, and every Japanese learns that in History class. So not only the characters (supposed to be Japanese) but also the readers (in first instance all Japanese) are supposed to know it.
Why he didn't tell her he got money for her? Because it didn't matter, I told you several times this pricemoney was a mere formality and the investment the (best) brothels put into a promising girl they wanted to educate into becoming a successful courtesan, outweighed by tons the price the parents got for their daughter.
And, again until you finally read it: debt or no debt, a girl in Yoshiwara never got to decide anything about her own fate or future, never could do but what was decided about her by others: her parents, the people who sold her (often a middle man), and the people who baught her. Everybody but she. And she NEVER got out... (do I repeat myself? Yes, and not even a bit, but it's your fault). Whether she's from the future or not, she's supposed do know that, so does the guy, and so does the initial public who's reading the manga!
Now stop turning it into a story it isn't, stop blaming me for a manga I didn't write, and before everything: stop use verbal abuse by means of arguments, I tell you... it doesn't work anyway.

only u see verbal abuse when its convenient for u. its like u never got cussed at by anyone online (how privileged of u, old man) And best way to twist my words, make it seem like I'm faulting u for writing it. Logic. Does ur brain register anything except what I'm sayin? I'm not mad at u cos u wrote the story (cos u didnt) I'm just pissed that you went around implying its okay to view this plot as a perfectly romantic plot cos its "historically correct" when literally ur mind deleted what I clearly pointed out to u? What kind of defense are you giving me? Oh, whatever u pointed out is false because I didn't tell the author to write it. Its obvious u didnt tell him or her to write it, and its obvious u didn't write smthg like this. Also, did u just try to guess my gender?

"Whether she's from the future or not, she's supposed do know that," yes indeed, its totally customary for all future japanese women to be well prepared to time slip into ancient japan and not need any sign of explanation from someone who is clearly from her time. And its totally expected that they fall in love with the man that didn't give them any explanation even though they are from the same time zone and the very basic courtesy that any human being could do is... give some explanation.

"Why he didn't tell her he got money for her? Because it didn't matter" yes if ur talking about a guy from ancient japan and not someone from the present time. Thats just shady as hell for a guy who time slipped. For an important thing like taking someone he clearly knows is not from this time, he sure have no qualms about leaving her in the dark, taking her money, making her his lover and still not telling her until she finds out herself. even then he still continues to keep secrets. But its not like ur gonna register it so whats the point.

Well from what I know, you're the only one thinking this. So keep yourself in your own illusion old man. Hope there'll be a place in heaven to entertain that

Well, almost 99% of the readers on this site are girls, so I address everyone as miss or girl or young lady until they would tell me otherwise; but so far I haven't met anyone who did that. And even if I know very well that many young people of today find verbal abuse totally normal, you can't stop me nor blame me for finding it a big put-off, because it is.

I am not responsible for the story of some other comic writer/drawer, and I don't make any judgements on the behavior of the characters therein: all I do is endlessly repeat that the things those characters do, EVEN IF THEY ARE FROM THE PRESENT, still would be considered normal by the readers, if they were Japanese, because they would know that in Yoshiwara this behavior would be considered normal. In Japan, today as well as allways, this particular part of Edo History is common knowledge to everybody. They're not proud of it, but neither are we of the lesser pleasant circumstances of our own pasts.
Of course it is wrong, seen in view of 21st-century standards, to force people into prostitution, everybody agrees with that. But still, it did happen everywhere in the past (not to mention the present, in many places), and in Japan in the 17th and 18th century it did happen in such districts, strictly regulated by the government. And all Japanese people know that. Whether the two antagonists in this story are from the present doesn't change the way things were done several centuries ago.

The reason why this guy doesn't tell the girl he recieved money for her from the Brothel-owners, is unknown to me, since I am not the author. I can only guess that it could be because -as I said a million times already- this money was considered unimportant, a mere formality, and that she probably assumed herself that he got money for her, since that too is something everybody knows in Japan, today. Only to western people that money seems to be a big issue. Not in Japan. And I tell you, it never was a fortune... Girls weren't sold their weight in gold in Yoshiwara, since even a very pretty girl could turn out to be a liability or a dissappointment to those who baught her. The investment on the part of the owners of the houses was much, much higher than what they payed for the girl, who was to be seen as "raw material", that had to be formed and educated for many years before she could start earning a single yen for her employer. And still, there was the risk she could turn out not gifted enough, or get sick and die or stay disfigured by smallpocks or that kind of thing; so they could hardly afford to pay a fortune to everybody who came to offer a little girl (for it happened quite rarely they took in an almost grown-up girl, like it is in this manga; the reality was the parents usuall sold their daughters very young, sometimes as babies. If they were so poor they couldn't feed her, even selling her to a brothel was better than let her starve...) but it was never much. Harly worth making a fuss over it.
Certainly Japanese parents wouldn't sell their children if they only to get some money! Japanese always loved their children a lot. Even the girls, contrary to China, where daughters were considered a burden you had to get rid of as fast as you could.
So, these MAY be the reasons why the guy didn't mention it to her: because it was probably peanuts, because she probably knew it anyhow, and because maybe he is going to use it to save her in the rest of the story, who knows? The manga isn't completed.
That can be the reasons, seen from a Historic point of view. If the mangaka has other plans, I don't know of them. History's the only view I'm using, how else do you want me to look at it and give you answers? I'm not the mangaka. If you really want to know what she's planning, if you find it so important, you must ask her.
I suggest you don't get yourself so worked up over a manga. I told you already: it's hardly worth it. Or why not choose an other to read? There are plenty, no?

Thanks for the info @Cyrano (you are amazing putting up with those two people who apparently have incredibly strong feelings about their interpretation of that era;; .)

heheheheh... thanks.
I'm amazed something else actually had the stamina to follow this dispute!
In Dutch, we have this idiom "it's a deaf-man's-conversation".
I sometimes had the feeling this was it. I think youths of today don't get taught to debate in school anymore, else they would have known becoming emotional is the first no-no in this art! We used to do role-plays about hot topics in 3rd year senior high school, and as soon as anyone started vituperating, he/she was immediately disqualified. Gotta keep your cool when debating, else your out!
Aside of that, History is reality; and moral standards happen to change over the centuries. they just do. No use judging 17th-century situations by 21st-century moral standards!
And third: comics are literature. When you don't agree with the moral content of the story someone wrote, there is no use whatsoever ranting over how bad it is; especially not against somebody ELSE than the author... ne? ╮(￣▽￣)╭

I have to say, I did read through this whole thing, and as much as I dislike bringing up old threads I feel like I have to defend the posters main point as being valid, in my opinion of course. Shouhei was a jerk and Ayame's actions didn't seem to match up with the story we were presented.

You implied somewhere in all this (correct me if I'm wrong, it was a very long post) that they both kind of knew what was up in a famous district like Yoshiwara. And maybe the modern woman should bone up on her brothel district history, I don't know, but Ayame clearly didn't know wtf or where tf or what being in the Yoshiwara district implied except that it was a brothel. It's right there in the first chapter. Shouhei brings her to the brothel, takes the money and looks grim. Ayame is like 'what, no. I'm not working at a brothel lmao'... and then she does like 'oh well'. While one could say the writing is rushed so we should cut some slack on characterization, that is up to the reviewer to decide to do. No reviewer of the works should be required into reading between the lines and assuming the character is just laid back and hilariously chill about being sold into sexual slavery. We don't cut authors of novels slack for weak characters, we don't cut B-movies slack for being cheap and hokey, people shouldn't be required to cut slack just cause it's a silly silly manga that 'shouldn't be taken seriously' despite the fact that all media is created and intended to garner a reaction from people thereby making reactions (whether the media is silly or not) the intended purpose. But I'm getting off topic!
The authors decision to make Ayame in chapter one seem to take this whole situation rather lightly, while being their creative decision, comes at the price of Ayame being taken as/seeming to be stupid.
You also said somewhere up there that a woman would be killed if she were to attempt to leave. Which if that's what went down, ok, but Ayame also clearly didn't know that. Chapter 1 page 18, lmao, sorry I'm all riled up now. She seems to think she has the freedom to leave, get lost, and have a tough time eating mushrooms or something. Not that she'd die at the gate for trying to leave which would make for a short manga. Lack of information is what I notice most of the reviewers getting mad about. Because Ayame suffered from it and because of it. Give her the option to get hysterical and run out and get killed, give her the option to ask to go to a good brothel. If Shouhei knew she was from the future, as he was from the future, he should have known that maybe people don't just automatically know what Yoshiwara implied. In fact, you could see it on his face after he sold her that she knew not one thing about what was happening or going to happen to her. He had the chance to give her even two basic facts (you are going to a brothel, the other choice is getting killed at the gate). Nice and simple. His omission of those bits of information took her choice away and whether you're a man or a woman the idea of that is frightening. Shouhei is a jerk. And while I want to get onto the sex having aspect, let's get to Shouhei.

Shouhei also pretends that he had no idea what would happen to her when he came back to do her hair. That's effed up, ok, and the only reason for the lie is to cover up his own guilt. He took the money, he knew what was going to happen to her, and he walks in like 'wow, why are you dressed like that what a shocker I totally thought they would help you'. His dialogue and mannerism isn't of a man who wishes her situation was different, he just wants someone from the future to be there with him (but that's what I could glean from the writing, especially the line about just being alive). I would actually argue that his characterization in his reactions are more believable than Ayame's and I applaud the mangaka that... but that doesn't mean his characterization doesn't make him seem like a jerk because of the whole 'omission', the pretending like he didn't know what was up and desperation to have someone else who is out of time like him here with him. While all of those things can be borne of desperation can we at least agree it was a crappy thing of him to do, and then not even tell her he's from the future. He has the comfort in chapter one of knowing he isn't alone. And if Ayame wasn't written so lackadaisically, in a more realistic character she would have desperately wanted that comfort too, but he didn't provide it. So, again... historic accuracy be darned, he was still a jerk for lying to her and taking away her right to choose (she might have even chosen to be in the brothel anyways, for pity's sake! But he didn't even give her the chance). Some people would define that as being a jerk, and I would have to agree. ...additionally, because in these short chapters he still feels more fleshed out despite his motivation being 'suddenly in love/lust' and she's just there the whole manga feels unbalanced.

And that brings me to the sex. Everyone is pissed because of all of those reasons listed above, and probably the main poster of this particular thread is too. Them having sex was like... the icing on the cake. Though, I will say Ayame wasn't stupid choosing to have sex with him, she was lied to by him and literally didn't know he sold her. Shouhei took advantage of her lack of knowledge that might have changed her perceptions of him.

I understand the historical aspects are neat, but it being historically aware doesn't mean that the characters could not still be defined as stupid or being a jerk just because of the time period and place they were sent to. They both have modern sensibilities, or had in Shouhei's case, and frankly even if they didn't the reviewers can and still will react negatively. Anyways, sorry for the long post.

Indeed. My historic explanation is in no way aiming to justify neither the morality of the characters, nor the quality of the plot. All I did was explaining over and over again that women couldn't do anything else but be prostitutes in Yoshiwara, so her being one was totally obvious, since there was no way they could get out anyway.
Why the author didn't make it clear in the first chapters what the two 20th-century-characters knew or not about that era, I don't know. Maybe I would have done it differently; but I didn't write the story.
All I know is the historic reality. And that is what I tried to make clear, over and over and over... and over... (⌒▽⌒)

Yeah, I got that bit and do respect and understand that historical tidbit. I was more responding to the initial post of Shouhei being a jerk or not and Ayame being stupid or not and explaining why people might be seeing them as such just as I did :D~

And yeah, I felt like the author could have and should have done a better job in developing Ayame's character a little at least. It would have strengthened the plot and made her character a little more solid (like, she can still be silly and scatterbrained, but there is also a bare minimum of character development needed so she doesn't tip the scale from silly into 'is she ok, did she hit her head..?'). Well, anyways... It is a shame since the plot seemed interesting is all.

there are some 'time lapse'-manga that are better, I have met several. For instance there's "doctor Jin", about a surgeon suddenly lapsing into History, Meiji era as well, or just before, actually; and then there's "Nobunaga no chef" about a cook lapsing into the 16th century, just before the wars that led to the Edo Era. Both very good. And then there's also "Ashigaaru", about a little girl, 14 or 15, who lapses into History during war time. That one is not only well drawn and enthralling, but very funny to boot! Unfortunately, even if the mangaka has finished about 20 volumes by now, only the 2 first are translated, and we're waiting for ever for someone to translate it. It's really good.
This here mangaka, I think, is empasizing more on drawing geisha and oiran with their gorgeous robes and hairstyles, rather than giving her characters solid psychological depth. Not every manga-reader expects that from a mangaka, anyway; it's not a novel, after all.