monne's Topics (123)

Thats the heterosexual logic. Woman has to stay a virgin until 30 and guy has to fuck every girl on the planet. And has to be more manly and richer and powerful etc. Woman=uke, seme=man. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

heh. ╮(￣▽￣)╭. that emoticon says it all

For me, it isn't so much about liking either the seme or the uke. They both have their good qualities and their failings. This story is about law enforcement in the context of comic yaoi. Consider the title. Consider the main character, a policeman. And then consider the person who the policeman is in love with: somebody who keeps pushing at the boundaries between right and wrong, good and bad, often crossing those boundaries. And yet, he can't keep up a pretense of not loving him. So, why would this sort of story appeal to readers?

Change the context again, the way the story changed in the last 2 chapters: you are a rich, handsome, smart, smooth and privileged kid with everything handed to you on a silver platter. Without working too hard, you grade in the top percentile on the curve. Without making yourself the least bit emotionally vulnerable, you attract all the sex partners you could desire. You have money to burn. You can do anything you want. Into your life drops this feral kid demanding a loan and his passion grabs your attention. He doesn't give up, even when thugs and bullies kick the crap out of him. He wants to preserve law and order so he becomes a cop and subjects himself to physical violence. He has a sense of fairplay and justice and goodness which goes beyond anything you've personally experienced, and he's crazy about you, but won't admit it ... partly because it's not kosher in your society, but also because you're a player and he knows it. Why does he fascinate you? Why would this story fascinate a reader?

Switch it up again: You're the BFF/colleague of this bold, passionate person who seems to be rooming with someone who disturbs sleep, packs crap-food lunches, carries on like a sh*t disturber. You see them in this car-crash relationship, and yet you want your co-worker to be safe and happy and have a good night's sleep so they can do their job properly...

There are all kinds of ways of reading this story.

Yupp, but no matter how you look at it, this one is a total cliche (at least for now, compared to other webtoons nowadays who are very creative with thw plot) i still cant believe this is from Lezhin lol

Are there any webtoons that aren't cliché? I've been reading yaoi since the original Ai no Kusabi, and I haven't come across any yet that aren't heavily derivative, mostly in porn clichés, but often in universe-building. And if they aren't stealing character types, dystopian settings, political structures and plot points from other manga, they steal them from novels. So, it's hard to get all worked up just because some webtoons are more heavily formulaic than others. There are always readers fresh to the genre who haven't come across a drunken "I am not responsible for anything I did or said" trope yet, or a swallow-the-communication "If he loves me enough, he'll figure out what I want using his advanced sexual clairvoyance skills" trope. Yes, they are ridiculous, but they correspond to certain touchstones in readers, (usually in direct inverse relation to what is really happening to that reader in real life) which is why these tropes reappear, story after story.

Technically, it is rape but the mc didn't reject it so it's somewhat consexual? And it's not 'whenever' since we only see this time, how did you know there were other times?
Heck, this isn't that bad compared to some other books. And forgive me for saying this but in the yaoi world, you're gonna have to get used to such things if you want to enjoy yaoi.(〜￣△￣)〜

When you stay in the world of yaoi as long as some of us have. You'll get used to it. Plus there's a lot worse things out there. Anon is right.

I've been in "yaoi world" for 10 years and you don't get used to it unless you somehow decide that rape is okay in some cases, which you shouldn't, because it's wrong. Reading yaoi doesn't mean you need to turn your brain off.

IIRC, it was implied that what he was dreaming before indeed actually happen(the scene where he had a wet dream). Though that could be wrong.

Anyway, I have no problem with rape in yaoi as long as it is within the theme. I've read yaoi that are way more messed up than this from the works of Harada which is probably 3 in my Twisted beyond Repair scale to Gengoroh Tagame who's probably 5. And I have no problem with those, in fact, I'm delighted but when it comes to manga such as this, that's where we're going to have a beef. Because, their actions are not fitting to the theme and genre. And in turn would make the seme a douche and the uke downright stupid depending on the case. And as a reader who analyses the manga dunno if others do, would find it stupid and illogical. (Though I would probably let it go if it's a smut since my brain wouldn't as receive much blood when I'm tugging the chicken.)

Say for example, Killing Stalking it is obvious that aside from it being yaoi, the focus is blood and gore and outright psychopathy. There's no problem with the plot but the fans, sometimes are the problem where it makes me question if we're even reading the same manga. As if the fans are suffering from Hybristophilia. Where they have unrealistically high expectations of how this story will end. Wishing and hoping is all well and good. Or sometimes will make up excuses why the machinations of Sangwoo's thought is like that. Just browse, tumblr and you'll find people adoring Columbine shooters for this reason.

When a manga this days, have good art and specially colored, for sure people are gonna like it regardless of the plot and rationality of the characters.

People say this is just a yaoi so you need to get used to it but isn't this also manga like any other that has to be critiqued if the story's making any sense at all?

I have no problem with rape in yaoi as long as it is within the theme. I've read yaoi that are way more messed up than this from the works of Harada which is probably 3 in my Twisted beyond Repair scale to Gengoroh Tagame who's probably 5. And I have no problem with those, in fact, I'm delighted but when it comes to manga such as this, that's where we're going to have a beef. Because, their actions are not fitting to the theme and genre. And in turn would make the seme a douche and the uke downright stupid depending on the case. And as a reader who analyses the (manga dunno if others do) would find it stupid and illogical. (Though I would probably let it go if it's a smut since my brain wouldn't receive as much blood when I'm tugging the chicken.)

Say for example, Killing Stalking it is obvious that aside from it being yaoi, the focus is blood and gore and outright psychopathy. There's no problem with the plot but the fans, sometimes are the problem where it makes me question if we're even reading the same manga. As if the fans are suffering from Hybristophilia. Where they have unrealistically high expectations of how this story will end. Wishing and hoping is all well and good. Or sometimes will make up excuses why the machinations of Sangwoo's thought is like that as if the he will change for good. Just browse tumblr and you'll find people adoring Columbine shooters for this reason.

When a manga this days, have good art and specially colored, for sure people are gonna like it regardless of the plot and rationality of the characters.

People say this is just a yaoi so you need to get used to it but isn't this also manga like any other that has to be critiqued if the story's making any sense at all?

It's about suspension of disbelief. If it's fiction you can root for a character who does something you would hate them for in the real world. You can even find sexual assault hot and it's okay because it's just fiction. It's kind of similar to rape fantasy if not as extreme. It's not like you want it to happen to you or anyone else in real life, but if that's what you find hot then it's okay to fantasize about it, draw it or write about it.

There's a big difference with this and Killing Stalking. The latter is intentional where that fantasy you're mentioning fits and this manga where you can't wrap your head around on what just happened. Not because rape is disturbing but how it was treated and. And the portrayal of which is not applicable to this genre. Do we not call out bullshit when something illogical happens in a movie? Can that not be applicable to yaoi as well?

Agreed. "People say this is just a yaoi so you need to get used to it but isn't this also manga like any other that has to be critiqued if the story's making any sense at all?" especially this. I dont found the logic when someone say that. So yaoi means non consensual sex between two or more man? and then all the manga I read that dont have some kind of sexual asault is shounen ai? not if it has explicit sex. Well, then what it is? And yes, if it has rape to me has to fit with the story and being logical. But is my point of view.

Well I guess you didn't learn a lot, if anything. Honestly, I'm fine with rape in yaois. Sometimes it bothers me depending on the plot but sometimes, it doesn't, because I've already developed the mindset that rape, is BAD in both worlds, but it's different because one world is real while the other, is not. I'm not gonna focus on bad part of the yaoi, what would be the fun in that? The focus on that part and it just ruins the whole thing.

First all its okay you find something wrong with it. Thats what you think you dont like romantacize rape. Okay i dont have problem with it. I hate cheating i cant think how can someome forgive anyone after being cheated but they still do. And after that who am I to judge.

People see romantacize rape and realistic potrayl of rape in a different light. When we saw a criminal abusing victim. Like what happnes in when rape is consider as truama in a manga we feel the victim pain. And his sadness and don't want him to end up with the criminal but in romantcize rape the victim most of the time is either attracted to the other at some point or dont mind what is happening to him and enjoy him self and by enjoying i mean exactly what i said, i am not saying about orgasm here. So these kind of manga are pure fiction and only for entertainment and nothing to be taken seriously because in real life first of all no one enjoy getting raped. There is a diffrence between judging a story if jts make any sense at all or ridiculed any manga that have romantacize rape in it. Sometimes stories with a good plot do have romantacize rape in it. Many of people who ridiculed people who enjoy romanatcize rape or that kind of Manga see it as rape is wrong no matter how it is and yes i agree it is wrong. When it happens in reality and people. Know that and yes this is a manga where we can enjoy fictions and our fantasies without getting judged you dont like fine by me. But i dont want to be dudged by people for liking something that they cant wrap their mind about or feeling small as what i am rreading and enjoying is something wrong. When i read manga even if its romantacize rape i dont only see ahh its has rape in it disgusting i see the whole point how uke is reacting, if he is actually denying it or if he is actually enjoying it and attracted to the seme you can see through these things when you read yaoi enough.no i won't say to people you need to get used to something you dont even like why would i but i will say it that without involving other you can express your point of view as when you ask people oh so you dont mind it or like i dont know how people can like it. It sounds like you are accusing those who dont mind romantacize rape. I do agree fiction affects reality in some aspects but it is when, when some manga is potrayed that way but some are pure fiction that has nothing to do with reality not even one percent. Which is for pure entertainment and need to be seen that way.

Well I guess your intellectual capacity doesn't allow to understand how rape remains condemnable even if we all know that it is indeed a yaoi trope, and one hard to avoid.
This might blow your mind but I've managed to had a lot of fun reading yaoi whilst still being aware and denouncing when one of the protagonist is a rapist.

Ehhh! Wrong! Seriously. Did u even read what I wrote? Nevermind. Guess it was too much for your tiny little brain to understand. Really, very unfortunate. Just forget about it miss uptight.

Haaaaa. Someone who gets it! You summed that up perfectly. Absolutely wonderful explanation.

You sound hurt, maybe take a nap or something if this is too much for you.

Calm down dears.
Its just manga
I dont like rape but should endure in yaoi world.u have no choice.
Having sox when your partner is drunk is the worst thing..
I have not drunk till now so i dont know the ukes feeling.cause the uke love seme so it should be fine perhaps

Being a yaoi does not simply excuse one from bad writing. Do you read manga just because it's "simply a yaoi" or do you read it because of the plot and characters? If the former's the reason, then I must say you're being shallow.

She is referring to rape in here not about plot and writing. Here most of the people are talking about rape.

So rape does not affect the characterization of the guy? And thus consequently affecting the overall plot?

Hurt? How did even get that? What are u even talking about? You really are an interesting person. You should probably lockup what the word hurt means before using it.

Why can't u just get it? Why don't you read what the anonymous person said? They explained it perfectly, are you that benighted as to refuse to understand the other party?

*research

Uhm, ever heard of characterization? Do you even try to ask how and why questions to hold a grasp of the sensibility of the character's actions? It's not simply about romanticizing rape, it's about building a character. Not necessarily moral but rather fitting to the theme. And in this one, clearly isn't.

No, I don't because I do not over analyze things. And I am still confused as how you got the idea that I was hurt, for whatever reason so adiós perra.

Ah, so you don't try to comprehend the story one bit, no? And for the record I'm not the one said you're butthurt but reading the section, it seems you are.

Well it depends how it is potrayed not always.

Nope. I meant what I said. I don't over analyze things. Also, I'm not "buthurt." I am neither resentful nor personally offended by anything you say at all. I see your point towards the topic but I do not get your reasoning when it comes me being "butthurt."

Not to me. And now I really wanted to ask you that it really bothers you thats people like romantacise rape.?

It's not just rape but the seme's personality. Advantageous who continuously exploits the uke's goodness. They turned a blind eye on the being of the seme and thus readers ended up calling the manga sweet and full of fluff. Where in reality, one of the MC is just pathetic. Sometimes, it's not even the manga that's the problem but the readers who failed their part to read properly.

I don't need to look it up girl, you're the perfect illustration for it, please keep it going.
You just need to admit you're a rape apologist and let it go. You're clearly confused since you keep asking us things, I think you're not used to use your brain that much. It's why I recommended a nap, I'm only looking out for you.

Aw, diddums, pet. Clearly nobody is impressed with your self-acclaimed "inty-lexual kappa-city" except you. Time to renew your benzodiazapine script.

It isn't that they failed to read properly so much as they are reading something else into the story that is personal to themselves and their experience, and not something you would necessarily share. Similarly, a story which makes one kind of sense and meaning to you won't translate the same way to another person. It doesn't have to. Romance is written as a response to id, not superego. The id is irrational and has its own form of communication. Hence poetry. Hence art. Hence mythology and symbolism.

You're so unimpressed that you went through the trouble of inserting yourself into the conversation. Thank you, honestly. Now let me show you out.

Aw, diddums, pet. Nobody takes you seriously at all. Must be difficult trying to contain all that unsubstantiated belief in your impressiveness. Here, have another straw to clutch: │

To be honest, you still taking time to reply makes me feel very confident in what I'm saying. I mean, surely you agree with me on some levels, it'd be too sad to imagine that you simply have nothing better to do. Also you sound a bit like a broken record babe. "Aw" "diddums" and "pet"...you know you're allowed to use other words, right ? Must suck to lack so much vocabulary.

Honestly, 'some perve' and 'moand,' you are both rude and cindescendiing. It's actually quite funny that throughout all of whatever this conversation is, you've both shown high levels of a condescending, arrogant, and extremely rude attitude and THAT is why you I portray you both as stuck up. "Peace."

*'monne'

Aw, ickle baby got sewious butthurt. Still nobody impressed with you. Still everyone laughing at you. The you who criticizes other people for lacking better things to do while you are clearly here to troll and hang on every word of those who call you on it.

It's the same person who has been trolling the site going after people who like this manga (and similar ones) like you did. Same rhetoric. Same tired word patterns. Same arrogance and lack of imagination. Most of the time, she can't be arsed to sign in and just plays off as sock-puppets, but it's the same old carping, so you know it's the same person.

FYI, I never approached you with hostility 'till you started accusing me of saying you're hurt where in fact I NEVER MENTIONED those if you scan the thread.

Talk about being condescending and rude.

Sorry did you just assume my gender? Cause I'm definitely not a female.
Anyway, I'm as much as entitled to voice out my opinion as you are. If the slightest of words triggers you to merit me of being accused as troll then you probably don't know what a troll is.

Sorry did you just assume my gender? Cause I'm definitely not a female. Anyway, I'm as much as entitled to voice out my opinion as you are. If the slightest of words triggers you to merit me of being accused as troll then you probably don't know what a troll is.

Lol. Take a chill pill, guys. Everybody here is talking about rape (again. As if this topic has never graced the site's many comment sections time and time again) and OP, somehow, is stuck with characterization and plotlines.

Dear anon except for bree nobody replied to you. Even when you already explained everything people are still stuck to as "why people dont find amy problm with it" but i here applause you for explaining things on our behalf.
Monne i wont talk about rape because above anonymous have already explained thing but still if you can't wrap you mind about it. I dont know what to say the only thing i can say then is please stop judging those who read these manga and as about bad writing maybe to you it is but for some people they like it because their mind set doesn't work as same as you and you need to accept that just because you didn't like something and find something worng with author writing doesn't mean every body else will find it wrong too. They have their own reason for likng it. I hope you will get it and stop involving people as why don't they find any problem with rape or bad writing or characterizations.


Some nerve rape apologist is a very bid blame to through in to a fight . Just because people dont mind romanticize rape that doesn't mean they aare rape apologist that mean they have studied characters enough to see if uke itself have the problem with rape or not.

I didn't say the troll was you, monne. You've been signing in and putting an identity behind your comments. Even if I disagree with you, and even though I do think you are misinformed about the law (and it's against the law in the Philippines, too, although whether or how it is actually enforced there is another matter), you aren't on a porn site (which this is) trying to slut-shame readers because they are enjoy a story about gay boxers having surprise butt-sex which will probably end up with them falling madly in love with each other over the course of the manga.

I have no idea what the fuck you're on about Sherlock. Unlike you I do have things to do with my life and have absolutely no interest in trolling people, anonymously or not.
Holy shit, this is too funny, you actually believe you're smart and on to something.

Whoops, different manga, and oh yes, you did. Bree is absolutely right to call you condescending and rude. First of all, you imply that people who read (and enjoy) a story which includes dubious/drunken consent somehow think this would be okay in real life. That's when you started to troll. It isn't real life, and no reader (except you, it seems) has trouble making that distinction.

Aw, ickle diddums is still on about how smart and clever she thinks she is, saying how she's not all about the trolling when here she is ...

I see you still haven't learned to use other words, that's just sad now. I know you do have a lot of free time so maybe you should spend less time on here and open a dictionary ?

Diddums only gets the words diddums is capable of comprehending. And here she still is "Not Trolling."

Because she has so many other "Important" things to do.

And here you are still talking to a simple-minded diddums even though you are so much above all this. Funny how that works.

Aww ... hurts its feewings, getting called out for trolling? Maybe put your worthless 2 centimes in when you actually have something worth saying.

And diddums.

Your comebacks were never good but they have reached tragic levels of low now. Bring it back please, you're getting even more boring. Or you could just go play somewhere else, I'm sure there are more conversations you can hijack for attention.

I'm embarrassed on your behalf.

Diddums.

Aw ... thumbsucking is not attractive, diddums. Plus, it's hilarious when YOU accuse people of hijacking threads for attention, after the way you first jumped on this one.

Am I so charismatic you decided to copy me ? You really are that boring, aren't you.

It's called mirroring, diddums, which, come to think of it, is probably too high-concept for you.

Gotta run, but I will be back because this is too much fun. Diddums, booboo.

On a serious on i do have to ask You this. Do you think people who like to read romanticise rape have turned off their brain and the really think rape is okay in real life. And they are rape apologist?

Alright, but please come back with more than two words and one sentence in your repertoire I'm begging you.

Mirroring or mimickry is a technique which psychoanalysts use to reflect unconscious behaviour patterns and core beliefs back to the person from whom they originated, mainly in order to draw awareness to these behaviours and core beliefs. Usually this is done in the context of a therapeutic relationship, but my only interest is in this free case study to use as an example for a discussion on narcissism spectrum personality disorders. So here are a few incomplete case notes:

The difficulty with using mirroring for someone who displays symptoms of narcissist spectrum personality disorder is that one of their favourite, initially satisfying, things to do is preen, not necessarily at their own mirrored reflection—which was, in this case, a fairly true, if toned down, reflection of self—but at the egotistical mirage created after the true self has been projected outward onto others. This sense of preening continues as long as the mirage holds, until finally, as the depth of personality fragmentation starts penetrating into awareness, initially with moments of discomfort, the emptiness and pattern of self-destruction becomes clear. True to type, it took the subject, what? About a dozen posts before he/she started to clue in? (Since this is a yaoi site, I will gender default to ‘she’, although gender is irrelevant) At least ten posts, anyway. In the meantime, the subject kept projecting personal fears and core beliefs about herself onto others in the form of sarcasm and insults, never realizing that she was actually revealing who she thought she really was. The most revealing moment was when, before this activity was confirmed, she said, “Am I so charismatic you decided to copy me ? You really are that boring, aren't you.”

So, what did the subject reveal? Well, she started off on the offensive against another commenter by asserting two fallacies, “you don't get used to it (fictional accounts of rape) unless you somehow decide that rape is okay in some cases, which you shouldn't, because it's wrong.” The fallacy being that something which has never happened in reality is, somehow, harmful and wrong. And “Reading yaoi doesn't mean you need to turn your brain off.” So she was sufficiently threatened by the commenter that she had to project moral failings onto them, even though this person had not declared support in any shape or form to rape in real life, only to an unreal, fictional account of it as a plot device. The tone of condescension and infantilization in the second fallacy, where she attacked the other commenter’s intelligence and capacity for thought, indicated that her core sense of self was not only shaken by fears of moral reprobation, but a lack of confidence in her own maturity, wisdom and intellect. These projections, especially those which revealed her secret fears of being thought stupid, repeated themselves throughout the whole kabuki, because it really is performance art.

But other revelations continued, transmigrating from one threatening commenter to another, and here they are:

“You sound hurt, maybe take a nap or something if this is too much for you.” Need to patronize in order to assert a projection of strength, maturity and capability where none exists.

“I don't need to look it (the word “hurt”) up girl, you're the perfect illustration for it, please keep it going.You just need to admit you're a rape apologist and let it go. You're clearly confused since you keep asking us things, I think you're not used to use your brain that much. It's why I recommended a nap, I'm only looking out for you.” Disavowal of hurt feelings for fear of being made to appear weak and vulnerable. Need to assert awareness of Third Wave Feminism so as to not appear uneducated and gauche, although the clear need to dominate the other commenter reveals the critical flaw in comprehension of Third Wave Feminist doctrine and applications. Return to themes of confusion, not using the brain, to reinforce projection of intelligence and thought for fear of showing weakness in those areas. Sarcastic pretense of concern and compassion in order to alleviate fears of being gauche.

At this point, I committed to using the dialogue and began the process of mirroring in order to reflect back the condescension, infantilization, and trolling behaviour:

“You're so unimpressed that you went through the trouble of inserting yourself into the conversation. Thank you, honestly. Now let me show you out.” Subject reacts to first experiment with reassertion of mirage self, along with attempt to dominate the dialogue with a show of nonexistent strength. Very determined to put a close to a conversation which might threaten mirage self.

“To be honest, you still taking time to reply makes me feel very confident in what I'm saying. I mean, surely you agree with me on some levels, it'd be too sad to imagine that you simply have nothing better to do. Also you sound a bit like a broken record babe. "Aw" "diddums" and "pet"...you know you're allowed to use other words, right ? Must suck to lack so much vocabulary.” Repeated use of phrase “to be honest” indicates propensity for self-deception. “Makes me feel confident” = insecurity. The statement, phrased sarcastically, about pitying me (the mirror) for having nothing better to do, reveals for the first time, shame, and reiterates the lack of self-worth and personal value. The concern over the infantilizing words in the reflection is her first indicated realization of how ugly and unpleasant they sound, although she isn’t aware, yet, of why those particular words or phrases are chosen … which is as a reflection of her own behaviour and word choice.

At this point, I diverted to respond to another commenter about the trolling behaviour.

“I have no idea what the fuck you're on about Sherlock. Unlike you I do have things to do with my life and have absolutely no interest in trolling people, anonymously or not. Holy shit, this is too funny, you actually believe you're smart and on to something.” First awareness “on part of subject that they are being treated investigatively, not at face value. Mocking, sarcasm, vulgar language choice, name-calling “Sherlock” in order to project image of having nothing to reveal, nothing to fear. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.” “You actually believe you’re smart” = fear of not being smart.

“I see you still haven't learned to use other words, that's just sad now. I know you do have a lot of free time so maybe you should spend less time on here and open a dictionary ?” Fear of lack of facility with language, the root lying in an inability to express oneself and convey meaning clearly, accurately, coherently. Possible fear of having nothing worthy of communication. Discomfort as mirage-self is shaken.

“And here you are still talking to a simple-minded diddums even though you are so much above all this. Funny how that works.”

Sudden and very interesting moment. Still expressed defensively, though. Still threatened, shown by the commitment to and continuance of projection and mirage. She almost figured it out, though, so intimations of awareness may be breaking through. I alter the reflection somewhat to a more aggressive tone to see if the realization breaks through, and go after the sense of self-worth in the mirage, by using words about monetary worth, value, saving up…

“Your comebacks were never good but they have reached tragic levels of low now. Bring it back please, you're getting even more boring. Or you could just go play somewhere else, I'm sure there are more conversations you can hijack for attention.” Indications of pain. Pleading. Fear of not being interesting. Another rally of force and dominance in support of mirage by trying to push reflection out of the dialogue. Interesting accusation that indicates uncomfortable awareness of her own personal motivations: “Look at me” ie., “I am not this reflection.”

“I'm embarrassed on your behalf.” She has written this comment to a person who’s only involvement in the dialogue is to reflect her own behaviour and core beliefs back at her. So she is saying this … to herself.

I reveal a little more of my experiment by pointing out that the accusation of hijacking the conversation is exactly what she, herself, originally did.

Final comment:
“Am I so charismatic you decided to copy me ? You really are that boring, aren't you.”

Conclusions: Draw your own. I'm keeping mine for my field work file.

Mirroring or mimickry is a technique which psychoanalysts use to reflect unconscious behaviour patterns and core beliefs back to the person from whom they originated, mainly in order to draw awareness to these behaviours and core beliefs. Usually this is done in the context of a therapeutic relationship, but my only interest is in this free case study to use as an example for a discussion on narcissism spectrum personality disorders. So here are a few incomplete case notes:

The difficulty with using mirroring for someone who displays symptoms of narcissist spectrum personality disorder is that one of their favourite, initially satisfying, things to do is preen, not necessarily at their own mirrored reflection—which was, in this case, a fairly true, if toned down, reflection of self—but at the egotistical mirage created after the true self has been projected outward onto others. This sense of preening continues as long as the mirage holds, until finally, as the depth of personality fragmentation starts penetrating into awareness, initially with moments of discomfort, the emptiness and pattern of self-destruction becomes clear. True to type, it took the subject, what? About a dozen posts before he/she started to clue in? (Since this is a yaoi site, I will gender default to ‘she’, although gender is irrelevant) At least ten posts, anyway. In the meantime, the subject kept projecting personal fears and core beliefs about herself onto others in the form of sarcasm and insults, never realizing that she was actually revealing who she thought she really was. The most revealing moment was when, before this activity was confirmed, she said, “Am I so charismatic you decided to copy me ? You really are that boring, aren't you.”

So, what did the subject reveal? Well, she started off on the offensive against another commenter by asserting two fallacies, “you don't get used to it (fictional accounts of rape) unless you somehow decide that rape is okay in some cases, which you shouldn't, because it's wrong.” The fallacy being that something which has never happened in reality is, somehow, harmful and wrong. And “Reading yaoi doesn't mean you need to turn your brain off.” So she was sufficiently threatened by the commenter that she had to project moral failings onto them, even though this person had not declared support in any shape or form to rape in real life, only to an unreal, fictional account of it as a plot device. The tone of condescension and infantilization in the second fallacy, where she attacked the other commenter’s intelligence and capacity for thought, indicated that her core sense of self was not only shaken by fears of moral reprobation, but a lack of confidence in her own maturity, wisdom and intellect. These projections, especially those which revealed her secret fears of being thought stupid, repeated themselves throughout the whole kabuki, because it really is performance art.

But other revelations continued, transmigrating from one threatening commenter to another, and here they are:

“You sound hurt, maybe take a nap or something if this is too much for you.” Need to patronize in order to assert a projection of strength, maturity and capability where none exists.

“I don't need to look it (the word “hurt”) up girl, you're the perfect illustration for it, please keep it going.You just need to admit you're a rape apologist and let it go. You're clearly confused since you keep asking us things, I think you're not used to use your brain that much. It's why I recommended a nap, I'm only looking out for you.” Disavowal of hurt feelings for fear of being made to appear weak and vulnerable. Need to assert awareness of Third Wave Feminism so as to not appear uneducated and gauche, although the clear need to dominate the other commenter reveals the critical flaw in comprehension of Third Wave Feminist doctrine and applications. Return to themes of confusion, not using the brain, to reinforce projection of intelligence and thought for fear of showing weakness in those areas. Sarcastic pretense of concern and compassion in order to alleviate fears of being gauche.

At this point, I committed to using the dialogue and began the process of mirroring in order to reflect back the condescension, infantilization, and trolling behaviour:

“You're so unimpressed that you went through the trouble of inserting yourself into the conversation. Thank you, honestly. Now let me show you out.” Subject reacts to first experiment with reassertion of mirage self, along with attempt to dominate the dialogue with a show of nonexistent strength. Very determined to put a close to a conversation which might threaten mirage self.

“To be honest, you still taking time to reply makes me feel very confident in what I'm saying. I mean, surely you agree with me on some levels, it'd be too sad to imagine that you simply have nothing better to do. Also you sound a bit like a broken record babe. "Aw" "diddums" and "pet"...you know you're allowed to use other words, right ? Must suck to lack so much vocabulary.” Repeated use of phrase “to be honest” indicates propensity for self-deception. “Makes me feel confident” = insecurity. The statement, phrased sarcastically, about pitying me (the mirror) for having nothing better to do, reveals for the first time, shame, and reiterates the lack of self-worth and personal value. The concern over the infantilizing words in the reflection is her first indicated realization of how ugly and unpleasant they sound, although she isn’t aware, yet, of why those particular words or phrases are chosen … which is as a reflection of her own behaviour and word choice.

At this point, I diverted to respond to another commenter about the trolling behaviour.

“I have no idea what the fuck you're on about Sherlock. Unlike you I do have things to do with my life and have absolutely no interest in trolling people, anonymously or not. Holy shit, this is too funny, you actually believe you're smart and on to something.” First awareness “on part of subject that they are being treated investigatively, not at face value. Mocking, sarcasm, vulgar language choice, name-calling “Sherlock” in order to project image of having nothing to reveal, nothing to fear. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.” “You actually believe you’re smart” = fear of not being smart.

“I see you still haven't learned to use other words, that's just sad now. I know you do have a lot of free time so maybe you should spend less time on here and open a dictionary ?” Fear of lack of facility with language, the root lying in an inability to express oneself and convey meaning clearly, accurately, coherently. Possible fear of having nothing worthy of communication. Discomfort as mirage-self is shaken.

“And here you are still talking to a simple-minded diddums even though you are so much above all this. Funny how that works.”

Sudden and very interesting moment. Still expressed defensively, though. Still threatened, shown by the commitment to and continuance of projection and mirage. She almost figured it out, though, so intimations of awareness may be breaking through. I alter the reflection somewhat to a more aggressive tone to see if the realization breaks through, and go after the sense of self-worth in the mirage, by using words about monetary worth, value, saving up…

“Your comebacks were never good but they have reached tragic levels of low now. Bring it back please, you're getting even more boring. Or you could just go play somewhere else, I'm sure there are more conversations you can hijack for attention.” Indications of pain. Pleading. Fear of not being interesting. Another rally of force and dominance in support of mirage by trying to push reflection out of the dialogue. Interesting accusation that indicates uncomfortable awareness of her own personal motivations: “Look at me” ie., “I am not this reflection.”

“I'm embarrassed on your behalf.” She has written this comment to a person who’s only involvement in the dialogue is to reflect her own behaviour and core beliefs back at her. So she is saying this … to herself.

I reveal a little more of my experiment by pointing out that the accusation of hijacking the conversation is exactly what she, herself, originally did.

Final comment.
“Am I so charismatic you decided to copy me ? You really are that boring, aren't you.”

I'm flattered to see you have so much interest in me. Bonus point for using more diverse words than usual. It's just too bad that the whole process is so pitiful... but what can I say,you seem very lonely so I'm glad I can help you find some comfort.

Thank you. It's free study group material. I love not having to pay for that sort of stuff. Of course, it's in very rough shape and the preliminary notes will need formalization and rephrasing in clinical diagnostic terminology, but it's not going to be put to very important use either.

And it isn't for your benefit. Good luck to you, though. You're what? 13? 15? Doesn't matter. Early adolescents often display signs of narcissism without actually being narcissists. I can use you either way.

Sure low budget Miss Marple.Gotta entertain your delusion the way you can, I can sympathise with your condition.

I'm sure you can ; -)

Yeah, after years spent on the internet, I'm used to dealing with self absorbed, lonely people. You're just like many, trying to make up for the failure you are in real life.I can't despise you for trying.

I read that you're lonely and self-absorbed. I read that your first reaction to threat of ego-exposure is self-loathing. I can understand that automatic reaction because you do a lot of projection and shielding. I won't even try to imagine what precipitated so much misery, anguish and rage, but it isn't my burden. It's all yours.

It's easier to perceive, of course, when it is spoken abuse, instead of written abuse, because then there is unrestricted access to vocal inflections and facial microexpressions. But you do a very good job of putting it

out there for everyone to read for themselves, even if you cannot acknowledge it as your own. That is the fatal error of narcissism. It first robs the afflicted individual of self-awareness, then destroys the means through which the afflictions can be healed.

That's why I wish you luck.

You really think I care about your ridiculous, weak psychoanalysis (that really is all "it's not me it's you", like seriously mate). I get it, you crave validation but you still have a lot to learn.Really. I wish you luck too, you'll need it.

Mm-hmm.

Good.

Already mentioned 2 or 3 times this wasn't for you.

I will add that it isn't even about you except in the sense of raw data. On that basis, thank you for continuing to engage. Will draw a note to the need for attention.

You're too kind but there's no need. Thank you for providing a great example of what loneliness and boredom can do to people.

Attachment to totemic 'trophies'. Regression to year 9? Parental attachment trauma.

*pets* Good girl, tell me more. Come on I'm supporting you, you need it.

Still exhibiting shame.

Okay, what else ? :)

.

Oh my bad, this was too much thinking for your tiny brain. I'm really sorry, let's try again later if you will.

Oh my bad, this was too much thinking for your tiny brain, I'm so sorry. Let's try again later if you can handle it.

What the hell did I just walk in on? Someone trying to upstage I Thot You Was a Toad in psychology and ethics? Thanks, I needed the laugh!

I suppose this is too much for your tiny brain, let's try again when you can handle it, okay ?

Nirmala: If u dcid to use, pls. incl. Krizan; Carter (NA spec parallel synd.; ADHD, ODD); APA B. V. 130, 4, 531–552 . Changed pswrd, no need for Janczi, ref "bored/boring, lonesome, nothing better to do." Not going anywhere. Pixl8 addresses, ids. No need to collate past 3/19. Disc. casual vs. clinical.

Hey Daisies. I was just packing up the roadshow. It's pretty textbook.

Looks like it was quite the ride! Good to see you!

*snickers* Oh, it ain't done yet. Narcissism's the gift that just keeps givin' and givin' and givin' courtesy that lovely pathology called splitting. I just don't think it's interesting enough to actually use. Unl

Oops, damned office computers. The motherboards are getting tired. Right now, the only reason it's quiet is because it's crashing hour over the pond, but it's cocktail hour in New Yawk (and many other places around the world.) The Last Word is the Holy Trophy, din'tchoo know?

Hahaha! I guess even narcissistic trolls need their sleep!

What the absolute fuck?

LOL. Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt your argument. I just needed an example of someone with strong signs o

... of certain antisocial personality issues for a study project on online profiling, and when this person started flaming in real time, with the students who needed to watch it all available at the same time, it was just a matter of baiting and reeling in. If you want to get back to the argument, be my guest, but ?

Get back to the argument? Ofcourse not. I've already forgiven and forgotten...and I am way too lazy and uninspired to argue when the argument wasn't getting anywhere. When you started writing about that whole...stuff, I just went from "These people are extremely pissing me off," to "Fuck this shit, Netflix, here I come."

And yet, here you are ....

Yes, because I was curious as to what you were writing about. (You're being rude, could have just not replied or replied nicer)

Sorry, I suppose you're right. The general tone of this thread is enough to take your feedback, for whatever it was worth, as fighting words. But why are you still here? I thought it "didn't matter to you" and you had "forgiven and forgotten" and were "fucking pissed off" enough to go "watch Netflix"?

It's a shame you didn't do all that analyzing on your self. You needn't come here for your little experiment when u could have performed it on yourself. Really, such a shame. Well peace Mr or Ms "maturity."

Peace, Bree.

Or, was there something further you wanted to say?

Sorry to interrupt bree don't want to critsize anything just want to say i thot you was a toad enter when the person was calling you a rape apologist and what did she get "fuck this shit" i am going to watch netflix. I know her entering in your conversation had nothing to do with you as she did it by her self but i dont think these words were necessary . It sounded rude to me and you are saying she is the rude one.

Yes but it was funny watching toad roast everyone. Considering Toad is way smarter, way more educated, and way more experienced than most of us on this site, I just relaxed and watched the show.

Thank you for the vote of confidence, superman, but I think Bree was expressing exactly what she thinks, and that's fine. It is a very different sort of angry self-expression than the other person used, and I'm actually fine with hearing her feedback. It doesn't bother me to hear it and I respect why she said it. I am a flawed person with many failings. All the criticisms that were leveled at me during this entire dialogue are true, and yet, so what? It is not a crime to be less intelligent than some people, lonelier than some, riddled with insecurity and self-doubt, proud, obnoxious, foolish, all those things of which I was accused and own as mine. That is the point. It's okay to be all of those things. We strive to improve ourselves, work harder, do better, but to deny that we are those things sets us up for narcissism. Because if we don't own it, then we project it onto others. Which was the entire point of all of this drama. So, a narcissist will never tolerate being exposed, but their behaviour must be exposed all the same. So, while Bree is right to say I should analyze my own behaviour, especially the part about bringing in outsiders, I would still do it. Abuse and all, I would still tell a narcissist what they are.

Oh yes and so sorry to interrupt between two of you. I was totally fine with her words until she said you are rude could you not talk like that. Where as in my perspective i think what she said was rude first so it confused me a little. Nothing more then that. And if you are fine with it. Then forget what i said and i apologize to bree too as an outsider i shouldn't have interupt :) peace. Oh and kikibe i don't know what you said was sarcasm or in a funny way but i do think she is really smart. The only think that bothered me the most in this conversation was calling someone rape aplogist just because they were expressing their views on yaoi love rape trope even if it was a fight blaming someone as rape aplogist i think was too much. It was nice talking to you all thanku for your feedback @ toad i appreciate it. And sorry for my bad english.

Whoops, there is one more point which I need to make. Bree does not need me to come in and take over her arguments for her. Bree is quite capable of defending herself brilliantly. I've seen her do it before, and knowing this, I did not interject my 2 cents worth into this fight on her behalf. To imply that I would do such a thing, robs her of her own agency. So, let's be clear. I came into this fight because I recognized the pattern of disdain and superciliousness as coming from a particular kind of troll.

Peace.

I'll bring the spinach dip for the next roast!

Sliced rump roast coming up ... ⁄(⁄ ⁄·⁄ω⁄·⁄ ⁄)⁄

Yes! My taste buds are ready!

I wonder if it's the author's way of apologizing to us...

He can still feel it, he just can't get off from that alone.