Let's face the truth

Terry January 8, 2021 11:10 pm

Let's start with the fact that people love to "hide" behind "historical circumstances" but the truth is they only take parts which match their narrative.
If everyone is so hyped about history why readers take only an exaggerated to maximum even for BL standard, toxic dynamic between "uke" and "seme".
No one talks about Seungho and his friends living more liberally than some people living in rather open-minded and liberal countries nowadays, no one cares that SH or Jihwa don't have wives, no one cares that Seungho (without any consequences) attacks fellow nobles, even stepped on one in
public, that he kills as if it was a pretty normal everyday occurance.
Let's not pretend there was NO law at the time.
But I'm not historian, I'm basing these thoughts on logic and some reading.
So all in all people care about history aspect as long as it's in their favour.
And let's be honest SH's actions even for a noble are at times rather extreme.

Even if we will excuse/justify or explain Seungho's actions with everything: him being noble, his past trauma what NK has to do with it. He is innocent. Why should he keep up with the abuse both physical and mental one? How can he fall for someone like SH after the mistreatment he has faced from his hands? It's both unbelievable and unrealistic.

I know many people will also try to play with: but NK is lowborn, his mentality is different than nowadays people, card. There is a difference between being submissive towards your abusive master and falling for them. What's more NK hasn't lived through the biggest part of his life as a slave.

Seungho's trauma and mental state. They are severe. Love isn't a magical medicine, love won't cure someone with such disarranged, problematic behaviour Yoon represents. It'd be a naive, twisted fairly tail at best.

Also I see people love to emphasize: Seungho's noble, he is traumatized etc. Let's be realistic: he and NK will never stand on equal grounds. SH can act nice for some time but when NK will disagree, won't play along... What then? Another round of brutality and violence.

And the double standards of some of you.
Historical aspect only plays in Seungho's favour. Jihwa doesn't have such privilege although he is a noble too.
Tbh Jihwa's actions are much more "understandable" than SH's. He has been by SH's side through a big part of their lives. They've known each other since childhood. He was there when SH had his nightmares etc. And his beloved not only didn't reciprocate his feelings. He chose some "dirty" lowborn. Maybe that boy even bewitched his Lord Yoon.
Both jealousy and stain on honour played a big part in Jihwa's actions. And in the end he couldn't do that... Although SH didn't have bigger problem with killing innocent guy in ch1.... But who cares.
Not saying that Jihwa's actions were right. They were wrong.
Just exposing hypocrisy of some readers.

Responses
    Terry January 9, 2021 12:00 am
    This reply will be showed after approved! Kamisamakiss20

    I don't feel that deeply, it's just my reflection about the story?

    Silth January 9, 2021 12:06 am

    In several parts, some characters state that Seungho's life style is a bit too much. He's more violent than the normal (and violence was normal) and he likes sex with men, but obv beside some rumors, nobody does anything, exactly because at that time, if you were a noble you could potentially do anything. Law existed, but 1) it was different from ours 2) noblemen could easily escape it (especially if the crime was aimed at a lowborn).
    Social class is also very important: many of the things he did (violence etc.) probably wouldn't have happened if NK were a noble like Jihwa. In a world like that and with man like Seungho, it's pointless to talk about morality or about him showing a bit of empathy: he grew up as a nobleman (and this alone could be enough), he is also pretty f*cked up.
    This is to say that the social context is important. I "accept" more Seungho's character, than many others who live in our time and world and who are as bad as him.
    And if I remember correctly, it's not that Jihwa didn't want to kill him, he (smartly) realised that leaving him alive and letting Seungho believe he escaped was a better and safer plan.
    Anyway, I just don't get people who romanticize Seungho, he's like this and it would be hard as hell to change him.
    About his "love story", well, it wouldn't be the first bl where abusive guy is loved back. I don't know how it will end and honestly I don't really care at this point.

    donaa January 9, 2021 12:06 am

    donaa January 9, 2021 12:10 am
    This reply will be showed after approved! Kamisamakiss20

    She didn’t say she didn’t like it. Only pointing out facts, analyzing and critiquing some aspects. Why so rude?

    Terry January 9, 2021 12:17 am
    In several parts, some characters state that Seungho's life style is a bit too much. He's more violent than the normal (and violence was normal) and he likes sex with men, but obv beside some rumors, nobody doe... Silth

    No? Jihwa felt guilty about the whole action long time before NN presented NK to him. He had nightmares and but his fingers to blood. He was drinking constantly too.
    And he couldn't go with it. Because he is much more innocent than SH plus he understood SH won't return his feelings in the end. He just said NN has to return it.

    Idk maybe Korea's history is much different but even in my country or other European countries noble men didn't escape with anything so easily? Especially wrongdoings towards other nobles. And aren't we talking about Neo-confucianism times when homosexualism was treated as really disturbing, deviant, immoral etc.

    "In several parts, some characters state that Seungho's life style is a bit too much. He's more violent than the normal (and violence was normal) and he likes sex with men, but obv beside some rumors, nobody does anything, exactly because at that time, if you were a noble you could potentially do anything. Law existed, but 1) it was different from ours 2) noblemen could easily escape it (especially if the crime was aimed at a lowborn).
    Social class is also very important: many of the things he did (violence etc.) probably wouldn't have happened if NK were a noble like Jihwa. In a world like that and with man like Seungho, it's pointless to talk about morality or about him showing a bit of empathy: he grew up as a nobleman (and this alone could be enough), he is also pretty f*cked up."
    Tbh I've never said otherwise?

    Terry January 9, 2021 12:23 am
    In several parts, some characters state that Seungho's life style is a bit too much. He's more violent than the normal (and violence was normal) and he likes sex with men, but obv beside some rumors, nobody doe... Silth

    And SH cut off Jihwa's top knot, hurt his servant and stepped on Jihwa in public... Hit Min to bloody pulp. He just has a special place in heart for people who don't go along with his wishes I guess.

    All I've meant was the point that in many places this story is not so historically accurate and most people don't care about it... They just care about the part which normalizez SH's abuse towards Nakyum.

    Silth January 9, 2021 12:45 am
    No? Jihwa felt guilty about the whole action long time before NN presented NK to him. He had nightmares and but his fingers to blood. He was drinking constantly too.And he couldn't go with it. Because he is muc... Terry

    Yeah sorry, I read again those chapters, I thought all that plot was a bit more complex than Jiwha not being able to kill.
    Anyway, I'm European too and noblemen doing whatever they wanted was pretty much normal here too (otherwise why the need for the french revolution and many other events?), so I'm not really surprised by Seungho's behaviour. Also he is a more powerful noble and this is why he sleeps with many other noblemen (who are less powerful than him). The problems would rise if these noblemen were to rebel against him or report him (but again, I can see this kind of thing happening only if other powerful people get interested in getting Seungho's property and power).
    Jiwha allows him to treat him like that, but if he decided to take revenge and find the right ally then that would be the only case where I can see Seungho getting punished.
    Yeah, homosexuality was a sin but again he's a noble, he can do what he wants (unless other nobles as powerful as him say otherwise).
    The laws where made by the aristocracy, so of course they could bend it and use it in whatever way they liked.

    Terry January 9, 2021 12:50 am
    Yeah sorry, I read again those chapters, I thought all that plot was a bit more complex than Jiwha not being able to kill.Anyway, I'm European too and noblemen doing whatever they wanted was pretty much normal ... Silth

    But I wasn't talking about noble's actions against not noble people... I don't know if I worded it badly...

    "The problems would rise if these noblemen were to rebel against him or report him (but again, I can see this kind of thing happening only if other powerful people get interested in getting Seungho's property and power). "
    Tbh I was talking about this part? And imo it's all to convenient and rather unbelievable no one rebeled or did anything against SH. Seeing like his family is loosing some of the influence after some of them were killed.
    He is also an outcast. With cut topknot off.

    Terry January 9, 2021 12:59 am
    Yeah sorry, I read again those chapters, I thought all that plot was a bit more complex than Jiwha not being able to kill.Anyway, I'm European too and noblemen doing whatever they wanted was pretty much normal ... Silth

    Also even noble homosexual men during the time still married and spawned children...which ones again isn't the case in our story. Which is rather questionable. It's not just SH. Looks like Jihww also doesn't have one...

    some perv January 9, 2021 1:25 am
    Also even noble homosexual men during the time still married and spawned children...which ones again isn't the case in our story. Which is rather questionable. It's not just SH. Looks like Jihww also doesn't ha... Terry

    Yeah I agree they all should have wives even if we never see them in the story (cause they would be irrelevant). In those days gay people, especially if they were nobles, at least got married even though sometimes they didn't have kids (very rare though, they at least tried usually). I could maybe understand how SH doesn't have a wife since he's one of the main character but it's laughable that his entire harem is single. That would never happen. Also the author herself said that her story isn't meant to be historically accurate and I don't blame her for that but then the rape apologists shouldn't use the tired "we can't judge them as we would nowadays" because the story isn't accurate therefore we're free to criticize them using our present days moral.

    Silth January 9, 2021 10:50 am
    Also even noble homosexual men during the time still married and spawned children...which ones again isn't the case in our story. Which is rather questionable. It's not just SH. Looks like Jihww also doesn't ha... Terry

    Yes and in fact I agree that he could be punished if the other nobles rebelled against him. But they didn't, probably because it's more profitable for them to be next to him. About the wives, I think it depends. It's possible they have them but we don't see them (what would be the point of seeing them anyway?), or they don't have wives yet (we don't know their precise age, but I suppose they're in their early 20, it's not so strange for men that age to be unmarried... Only women had to be fast and marry asap). I wouldn't take Jihwa as an example since he loves SH and I think he would refuse marriage proposals.
    I'm sure the author isn't perfect in her depiction of history's details, but I don't think a story like this would be so impossible. They're young nobles, so being unmarried and committing crimes is not so weird.
    Also consider that unlike Europe or western world in general, a power like Church (with all its set of moral rules) didn't exist so I think "crimes" like homosexuality were easier to "commit".
    The only weird thing I see, is the fact that his family allows him to behave like that and shame them. Maybe in reality, he would be forced to have a more normal life or he would be "eliminated" from the important roles in the family.

    Terry January 9, 2021 11:10 am
    Yes and in fact I agree that he could be punished if the other nobles rebelled against him. But they didn't, probably because it's more profitable for them to be next to him. About the wives, I think it depends... Silth

    They are mostly about 25 years old or more if I'm not mistaken (alth author has never precised?). Even for man at the time it was rather "advantage" age in marriage matters.

    Yes but Jihwa's family wouldn't care much about his feelings for SH, would they?

    Like imo most of this things look too convenient, scratched and at times just unbelievable. Even NK's haircut is just not accurate.

    There wasn't a church but still there was Confucianism and especially in Joseon era (our characters are living in) homosexualism was looked down on. And it's just look questionable when you see how many of SH's fellow noble peers take part in such acts so freely. Yes they are nobles but still. Also so many of them showing homosexual "tendencies"? Statistically rather unlikely.

    Maybe I'm too persnickety but I still think the story isn't so historically accurate, someone few months ago with much bigger knowledge about Korean history pointed out things which doesn't make sense in some comment even.

    My whole point of my OP was about that most people don't care about historical accurance, they only care when it gives a "free pass" to Seungho's and Nakyum's power imbalance.
    Although the truth is as I said at the beggining even for a noble his actions are quite extreme.

    Silth January 9, 2021 12:28 pm
    They are mostly about 25 years old or more if I'm not mistaken (alth author has never precised?). Even for man at the time it was rather "advantage" age in marriage matters.Yes but Jihwa's family wouldn't care ... Terry

    We don't know how old they are, we can only make some assumption and it seems they are rather young. At 25 people would get married, but I don't think it was a scandal if someone got married later. Moreover, marriage obligations were heavier if you were the first son... For as much as we know these dudes could be cadet sons or smt like that.
    About homosexuality... you talk as if those dudes were gay and are having sex with him because they love him or something. They're basically like prostitutes, having sex with him probably gives them some advantage, or they hope they will get it. Jihwa is the only one who actually cares abou SH, the others navigate around him just because he's the lord.
    Yes, confucianism existed, but did it have the same powers the Church had? The Church had a huge political power, it had tribunals, laws etc. It was not just a religion or a set of ideas.
    As I said above, the only huge and strange thing is the lack of the family influence, unless they are the ones who want these young men to get closer to the Lord.
    No one says that SH's actions are not extreme, they are and they say this in the story too but (and I am repetitive I know) I don't think it's totally impossible for a person like him to exist.
    The historical setting doesn't give a free pass to SH's behaviour, but we shouldn't apply our morality and sense of justice to a story set in the past.

    Terry January 9, 2021 12:32 pm
    Yeah sorry, I read again those chapters, I thought all that plot was a bit more complex than Jiwha not being able to kill.Anyway, I'm European too and noblemen doing whatever they wanted was pretty much normal ... Silth

    And by strict law nobles at the time couldn't just do as they please. Of course it's a different topic if the rules were or weren't enforced. But by law it was not legal to hurt other citizens and subjects of the monarchy they belonged to if they hadn't have lawful reason to do so. Of course once again it's a different matter if noble get free pass even of they broke a law...which is rather obvious they did.
    But killing people out of whim in public wasn't imo rather everyday occurance even if you were from elite, a noble.
    But once again I was thinking more about Seungho's actions towards other nobles.

    Terry January 9, 2021 12:41 pm
    We don't know how old they are, we can only make some assumption and it seems they are rather young. At 25 people would get married, but I don't think it was a scandal if someone got married later. Moreover, ma... Silth

    But don't you see most of the points are exceptions. It's weird but theoretically, maybe it would be possible if.....etc. Everything looks rather scratched.

    Lmfao I've never even implied that they love him or called them gay even. But ok. And you are talking as if they weren't nobles themselves. Yes they can be lower in the hierarchy but yikes. And the problem is it's not developed in the slightest. We don't see getting anything out of it, any advantages. We just see sex which imo is another let down.

    No one says that SH's actions are not extreme? I don't agree. Many people in this particular comment section play the card: ah he is a noble, his actions are understandable and pretty normal in those times.
    And I didn't apply our morality and sense of justice.

    Terry January 9, 2021 12:45 pm
    Yeah sorry, I read again those chapters, I thought all that plot was a bit more complex than Jiwha not being able to kill.Anyway, I'm European too and noblemen doing whatever they wanted was pretty much normal ... Silth

    Also the main point of many revelations which were also very problematic in themselves, the bloodthirst, slaughtering ex rulers and their children etc.... Was very often actually financial crises. Of course there were many other important factors and causes and every revolution was a little different.

    Silth January 9, 2021 5:06 pm

    But he IS an exception. It is said several times in the story. SH is known for his cruelty, he is known for his sexual drive, his behaviour is considered excessive by everyone. I never wanted to say that people like SH are normal, just that, because of his privilege, people like him could live however they wanted. He is particularly shameless and violent, true, but it doesn't change the fact that he can do that exactly because he's a noble. I don't know what is so surprising about this when nobles did whatever they wanted all through history. And yes, revolutions (as any other political event) happens because of money, people get poorer but rich people always live in the same way, people gets angry and jealous of them and here comes the revolution.
    Now, SH probably doesn't affect people's lives that much, it's not like anyone gets poorer if he f*cks a man or kills a random person. The only danger for him, come from other noblemen, who may have interest in his wealth and title.
    When the time will come (because I think it will come) and someone will try to accuse him, surely the fact that he is violent and homosexual will have a huge impact, but not yet, not if someone doesn't have other kind of interests first.
    I repeated many times they were nobles, but not every noble is equal. There is a hierarchy and Seungho is definitely more powerful than them (otherwise they wouldn't sleep with him). It's true we haven't seen yet what advantages they get from being with him, but it can be anything. Just think about the Master who got that job at the governement also thanks to his help. Master himself was a noble, but from the low nobility and he couldn't get where he is if he didn't get the support of a "stronger" noble. Probably the other guys are from the low nobility too, or not as powerful as him, so if they are next to him is because they expect something (being it a job in a higher positition, being it money, lands, or simply protection).
    I agree on the fact that we didn't see any of it, but it doesn't mean we won't see it (and I hope we will). I agree on the fact that seeing only sex is getting frustrating, exactly because there could be so much more to see.

    Terry January 9, 2021 5:59 pm
    But he IS an exception. It is said several times in the story. SH is known for his cruelty, he is known for his sexual drive, his behaviour is considered excessive by everyone. I never wanted to say that people... Silth

    Sigh. Let's stop this discussion at this point because it's pointless.
    Really you don't have to explain to me the basic historical knowledge, I've never denied that nobles, royals were privileged or that there was hierarchy among them. It's elementary historical knowledge everyone probably had in their historical classes and I feel we are evading ourselves in our arguments and point.

    I will repeat to me some parts are just too convenient, too scratched, barely possible at times and makes in my pov the story rather unbelievable.
    My main point is that once again people are not so worried about historical details, they are only interested about history when it's explaining power imbalance dynamics between NK and Seungho.
    And my abother point is PEOPLE IN COMMENTS try to portray SH's actions as normal and understandable because it happened in different era but even by back standards his actions were rather extreme.

    Silth January 9, 2021 8:49 pm
    Sigh. Let's stop this discussion at this point because it's pointless.Really you don't have to explain to me the basic historical knowledge, I've never denied that nobles, royals were privileged or that there w... Terry

    I was trying to explain why SH isn't so out of reality as you claim he is, but ok, whatever.
    No one came here to learn korean history, so of course they care about it only when it comes to the relationship between the characters.
    Fictional stories are always too convinient, too scratched, barely possible, unbelievable. Otherwise we would just read about real life.
    The only criticism I have toward this story is that SH's actions are repetitive and almost boring by now, as for the rest to each their own.

    Terry January 9, 2021 11:35 pm
    I was trying to explain why SH isn't so out of reality as you claim he is, but ok, whatever.No one came here to learn korean history, so of course they care about it only when it comes to the relationship betwe... Silth

    Like you didn't understand me, maybe I've worded it badly. I never said it's not possible for someone like SH to exist. Under specific circumstances speaking completely theoretically someone similar to him could even live nowadays. I've never tried to imply its not possible.
    I was taking more about other circumstances surrounding his person and other aspects in the story which look rather scratched and unrealistic at times.
    And the other point was about some readers claiming in comments that SH's behaviour is rather typical and understandable for your average noble which is just not true. When even is story it's as you noticed emphasized... That it's really not.
    That's why I also pointed that noble privilege only plays in SH's favour, people aren't as understanding towards Jihwa.
    "Fictional stories are always too convinient, too scratched, barely possible, unbelievable"
    I can't quite agree. There are many movies, books which are very mundane and realistic.