That threesome with Feilong, Asami and Akihito in extra chp was the most glorious thing I ...

In that extra where he's Asami's boss, it's explicitly stated to be Akihito's dream though... He even wakes up. The second one obviously follows the same fashion. That's the hardworking manager series.

The hardworking photographer series of extra follows the canon, stays true to it etc.

Sure I see there's a certain difference, but you see, what happened between Asami and Akihito wasn't exactly fluffy vanilla sex; a lot of times it was as unwanted as you say the threesome was, and rape isn't any better if it happens in the "intimacy of two people". And here he was goaded into the threesome like he was played with by Asami many times before.
It's really not the worst thing Asami has done, he's been way more cruel.

There have been other scenes where Aki wasn't into it mentally but he reacted physically anyway, and this is the same. He's getting hard just from sucking Fei off while Asami is watching.

No, it happened many times that he was angry AFTER the sex, not just here.

I am sure everyone has their own sensitives, but to me rape with more people is worse than rape with just one rapist. That doesn't make any rape ok, but adding more people is worse--at least, I think so.

Yaoi rape doesn't work like RL rape anyway, because it serves another suppose in terms of the fantasy and as long as we acknowledge it as problematic, fiction may also gives us a way to use at as a mechanism for permission, passion and pleasure instead of what it really is. If you add more people to that, the fantasy that it a act of forbidden pleasure and passion may be destroyed.

I didn't feel that happened in this threesome, because Aki just seemed annoyed to me--and he tends to pretend not to like things he is shown to actually like. In RL I would never say that we should assume someone really wanted it--but in this story, I think we are supposed to see Aki as really wanting it.

I didn't quite see it that way. Since there was already a complex relationship between all three characters, there was already sexual tension and emotion for everyone involved. Of course only Asami and Aki love each other, but Fei has a history with both of them, and there are feelings that run among all three. Yes, Aki was goaded into it, and yes, he was angry afterward--but mostly because he was hoping Asami would call it off and stop it instead of joining in. Aki was acting on his own--a bit rashly and emotionally. As always, he jumps in without thinking it through, but not as a doll. He is as responsible as the other two.

I wouldn't want to see it become a regular thing, but this threesome didn't upset me because I think there are real feelings and attractions involved. It wasn't Asami pimping Aki out, and it wasn't done to humiliate or punish. It was the result of sexual tension, jealousy, passion, frustration, caring and a complex history.

I think Asami does care both about Aki's pleasure and emotions, but that Aki seemed to enjoy it in the moment, and the morning after he got angry--as Aki often does when he is pretending he didn't like something or wanting to suppress how he really feels.

Perfectly put, Anon. Bravissima! :)

Hmm.. I see. Thanks for sharing your opinion ! :) but still I just can't shake that feeling off, that it was cruel and horrible.. and yes the relationship between akihito and asami started really bad and doesn't contain rainbows and flowers xD It's hard for me to accept how easily asami shared (that's how I see it ) akihito, especially with feilong who did what he did in hong kong.. so I believe you see the extra as part of the original story line ?

Well, everyone has a different level of "squick". Personally, I can excuse a ravishment fantasy that includes a certain level of twisted and even sometimes angry love, because the magic of fiction transforms it into something the target enjoys and responds to. It's harder to do that in a threesome.

Have you ever read Caste Heaven? In Chapter 8 (which was recently posted here) there is a scene where the ukes are punished for threatening the power structure of a caste "game" with a sort of threesome rape, after which one of the ukes is rapped by a fourth person (the "king" who was directing the whole f-train wreck). When I compare the Finder threesome scene to the Caste Heaven, Finder seems tame. In Caste Heaven, I completely hate that the semes could do that to the ukes. Others will say that it is still all part of a twisted love and the semes just don't know how to express their feelings for the ukes, but I see it as not having any feelings for the ukes at all.

Maybe I have a slightly higher squick-level than those who hate all threesomes, but not as high as those who can see giving an unwilling uke to others as a part of any kind of passion or feeling. I do think that I can accept more abuse between two people than I can if others get involved. Not in real life, of course, because there is no excuse for that in real life. But in fiction, where they make ravishment seduction and seduction love, then I can go with it to, up to a point.

It's not that intimacy makes rape and abuse okay, but I feel like bringing in others to rape the uke or humiliate him is an indication of a sociopath without feelings. Fictional "ravishment" can be written as twisted love as long as the seme is possessive and protective (in terms of keeping others away). Even in fiction, forcing the uke to allow another to take him destroys the idea that there is something real if dark and broken between the couple--at least for me. At that point I can no longer suspend my disbelief in "twisted love" and I want the rapists to pay.

Oh, sorry, I got carried away in my justification for my acceptance of smut, er threesomes.

I see the extra as a fantasy, and not a "real" part of the story. In fact, I see it as Aki's fantasy because he has complicated feelings he does not understand, and this might give him closure. Plus, he is so cute in the hot springs scene.

I think it's real...I don't really have any concrete proof, but that's what it feels like to me. That's because for one, it is as was mentioned before, it isn't explicitly said to be a dream (like the one where Akihito had to torture Asami in the office) nor is it as obviously cracky/non-canon as something like the office setting, and especially the beginning makes it seem like it really happened to me, because the way it is set up directly connects to the main story; if it were just a crack/smut extra, Sensei wouldn't need an excuse or explanation to make it work within the actual story, she just could have thrown everyone into the onsen scenario like she did with the office. That's my theory.

I didn't know that there is a new chapter in Caste Heaven, cuz I check the updates only in mangahere so thanks!

well I read the chapter here and wow ! I agree, it was horrible, completely ruined any hope I had that karino might have some caring feelings for his uke.. indeed viewfinder seem very tame but well... Caste Heaven's author always writes the twisted things, so somehow I'm not surprised xD how weird... I'll probably continue reading that manga...


I'm sorry for the endless talk, thank you again for the kind and great replys.

about what you said, "I feel like bringing in others to rape the uke or humiliate him is an indication of a sociopath without feelings" - couldn't agree more. That's what I felt in that threesome with asami and feilong... that's why I just can't accept that chapter, tho it wasn't really bringing someone in... I think.

And now to my question :3 you said you see it as fantasy, can I ask why? is it because it doesn't fit asami/akihito?

P.s - "Akihito is so cute", Agree,tho I believe he's always cute x3

Maybe. It doesn't ruin it for me if it is "real", because of the feelings among those three--but I did think of it as Aki's fantasy. I don't have proof of it either, I just think Aki's the one who is most likely to secretly like the idea of having both of them for a short time.

Oh, I like the "endless talk". I'm online too. :)

I will also keep reading Caste Heaven. It's one of my top three favs right now. But it is twisted and chapter 8 burst my bubble. I will keep going though.

I see it as fantasyfirst because i did thik it was fluff, and then partly because no, I don't really see Asami as being into sharing (though if it were with anyone, Fei might be it). I do think the Hong Kong arc left Aki with some unresolved feelings (including anger and frustration). Aki wanted Asami to come and get him, but he ended up becoming friends with benefits for Fielong (of course, the benefits came first). So now there is an extra where Aki is stuck some place, and at first Asami comes to get him (Aki's first wish). Then Fei shows up and taunts Aki into going over by him--and Asami lets it happen. This isn't exactly Aki's wish, but it reflects how he might have felt in Hong Kong, and how he eventually felt as Asami and Fie used him as an excuse to keep laying some of their own old unresolved issues. This is a sexier way for Aki to feel something for both of them and be mad at Asami for putting him in the middle of that. It even reflects the real fear he has of Michail, since Aki left the arc being afraid of him and not Feilong. It just felt more like Aki's therapy or daydream than real to me.

That's a really good theory, wow nice !
I'll keep thinking it's just fan service... even if there is a possibility that it's not :P

Now talking about the manga in general,
I always have this feeling that we, the readers, make things way too deep and if the author saw it, she'll be like what the hell... it's just a story about a photographer and a fixer going all hot and badass xD. And even if she didn't mean all those things, the manga still rocks because of the different points of view and the depth we find there (even if it's not meant to be there) x3

Personally I wouldn't say that it did happen, it's just that as I see it sensei does keep things in-character. I'm sure she has a good grasp of her own characters and do care about how she depicts them, extras or not.

I mean, just look at it, so many people have expressed different opinions about Asami.

Now people make their own conclusion about what a character would or wouldn't do, and so it's easy to say "it's an extra, it doesn't suit my view of the characters, it's OOC" and just completely disregard what happened. Just like many people try to ignore the first chapter and justify it with "it was supposed to be a oneshot". And then you can come up with a dream theory in which sensei has given absolutely zero hints that it was her intentions.

In the end anybody is free to think what they want, it's to each their own experience xD. I personally gave my two cents because someone felt it caused a problem when it doesn't really have to do at all aha.

You have a point. I justify the first chapter and and the possibility that this was "real" by thinking Asami has some special sense of what Aki really likes and that Aki wants to be pushed into things, even when Aki acts like he doesn't like it. I know there is nothing in the story that backs this up, and in real life it would be utter crap, but I believe it anyway. :)

Oh I agre that readers probably take things in different directions than the creator first envisioned. I tend to be a "death of the author" reader, though I think there should at least be a basis in the story to back up what we infer from it. What I mean is, readers are not passive, and when we get lost in a story people tend to start "co-creating" by imaging more than the writer actually put on the page. Ultimately, I don't think it's even controlled by what the author wanted readers to take from the text (or manga). I think it's about whether or not the reader can support their impressions based on what's on the page itself (even if what is not what the author wanted ).

How can the page have something the author did not even intend? It's a part of how humans think and why we tell stories. Stories are a different level of communication than essays or instructions. They evoke emotion and at some level the interpretation is subjective. They also tend to hold various levels of meaning, so that if you have a really good book you can re-read it and see different things.

Sometimes I disagree with another reader and think, "That wasn't in the story at all." Even though everyone's subjective experience of the story is valid for them, I will reject things that I personally don't think are backed up by the text. OTOH, I stick to things I believe I validly inferred from the text, even when others don't see it. I'm funny that way.

I do think discussion bring out angles of the story I didn't see at first. TBH, my first read was probably more along the lines of "Mmmm, hot." The deep thinking comes while waiting for updates.

PS I had "Tut" in a conversation with too many "anons' and I forgot to switch it back.

Only part I like about that extra is asami came to ball his wife out of the predicament he was into. The rest don't really care. However, you,re blaming asami for not doing anything to prevent it and the way both men used and treated aki. No offense, for one fei long didn't force aki to do what he did. Second, aki did that intentionally to get Asami jealous and mad for not wanted to know what happened between him and fei, which back fired . Third, yes asami was angry and he got curious of the technique fei long thought him under his care and in his defense as man , he joined in to punish aki. You know what the say, you make your bed and you lay in it. Be careful what you wish of. I do agree a point someone made that this just an extra sensei created to make fans happy. If this the original manuscript, asami won't tolerate such a disrespectful behavior display in front of him or anywhere else.

Furthermore, why you're make aki come out like a brainless child who don't know right and wrong and will allow anyone such as asami talked him into doing such a thing. Aki is a big boy and he need to put his boy pant on . I am not trying to be mean just stating the facts.

The difference is?
I'll tell you the similarity, both are sexual assault.