As a Japanese proofreader with a close Japanese friend that reads the volumes along with me, Kurose's personality in the translation is totally different. To be honest, the changes between "Shirotani-san" and "Anata/Anta" are HUGE. It was never clarified by the translator that, in the Japanese language, referring to someone by second person pronoun (any form of "you" in Japanese. ex: anta, anata, omae, aitsu, etc.) is incredibly rude.
In written text, the use of anata and anta isn't as bad as it would be if said in real life, but it still have a very casual, or sometimes downright inappropriate or demoralizing connotation. In this case, Anta is the more casual, boyish, but also the ruder of the two which Kurose could have used. It technically isn't a word, but rather a slur of anata.
So when Kurose is switching between Shirotani-san and Anta, he's really been echoing all along that ideas that in this chapter he just recently explained to Shirotani: he is caught perpetually between wanting to covet and keep him safe (calling him Shirotani-san) and defile him irreparably (calling him Anta). It's quite interesting, and if we could speak Japanese here in the comment region, we might have been able to pick up Kurose's personality quirk beforehand due to his Japanese in previous chapters. This series is VERY big on playing with the language usage, trust me.
Also, hi there! I see you around quite frequently and I've been meaning to give you a shout out~ <3
WOW.. Thot & Yuuki, you two amaze me. ヾ(☆▽☆)
I got into a muddle since it turned out Shirotani's afraid he'll dirt other.
And seems like I can't go on till Sensei clear that part. Poor me! (+_+;)
Is Japanese your native language or is English? Your English grammar, vocabulary and sentence structure denote either a native speaker with a decent education or a non-native speaker with a superior grasp on the language. In either case I was impressed by your skill in communicating such an intricate and nuanced idea so clearly and eloquently. I am interested in learning to speak and read Japanese - though I will admit to being a bit intimidated by the reading aspect. I am such a "grammar Nazi" in my own language and would hate to butcher one as pretty as Japanese.
Goodness. Now I'm quite embarrassed to have written that typo-latent blurb. OTL. Thank you for your kind words; as it happens, I am a native English speaker, though I have been raised with Japanese, Chinese, and French buzzing around since my early years. Long ago, I was an intended creative writing major. But currently, I am in Japanese Studies and Illustration, though I plan to transition into study of the language itself (as its history is tiring me, especially with the way academia tells stories of the East, even today, through a veil of fetishization). I am a teacher's assistant at my college for the Japanese language. In my experience, reading quickly becomes less intimidating than speech, though learning of kana and kanji initially takes quite the commitment. If ever you find yourself with the free time or the dedication to learn, do shoot me a mail and I'd be happy to help in any way I can.
Japanese is a very nuanced language, but more than that, like with any language, it is the bridge of cultural contextualization itself. I feel as though in that way, we do have an obligation to master our given language as much as possible (as it is the primary bridge of our thoughts); then and only then I believe the transition into learning another language will be smooth (unless one is bilingual from a young age). Certainly, having a command over English will help you find the proper phrasing, moving forward, with which to rationalize difficult grammatical structures of another language. I wish you luck.
Aww, thanks so much.
And yes, it seems like Shirotani has quite the M streak in him, to the point where it really isn't healthy and he's started to materialize actual lasting ideologies (or rather, complexes). It is my opinion that he was always looking for a reason to dislike himself, especially because it was pointed out recently to me that, in the flash back with his father and the female student, young Shirotani's pants were pulled down....On the slight chance that he was perhaps masterbating to his father and the girl, I think it becomes pretty clear that his desire to "not want to dirty others" was actually caused by his own masochistic disposition, even at a young age, which caused him to do socially inappropriate things in lieu of being punished (or, In the case of children, out of a desire to be noticed in some way). Well, whatever happens, it will surely be an interesting read moving forward. The amount of sexual content, to be honest, I wasn’t expecting. But I’m glad the series seems to be taking itself seriously in spite of it.
Hi, Yuki. Nice to 'meet' you. It's great to have some cultural and linguistic background added to the discussion.
I was aware that using the second person pronoun was considered unacceptably familiar in the context of Japanese acquaintances. I wasn't aware of where the boundary lies between when it is okay to be that casual and when it isn't, ie., Shirotani and Kurose have definitely crossed that line from casual to deeply personal awhile back ... although the question up for debate right now is whether Kurose is being very vulnerable, or a jerk who thinks Shirotani's emotional pain is funny/provocative.
So, from what I understand (and this is me reflecting back those words to you in order to ensure I understand correctly), "Anata/Anta" is NEVER appropriate in adult relationships, particularly in relationships where the other person is cherished, but even more particularly during serious conversations about personal boundaries and the nature of that relationship?
Because I still can see Kurose saying these things in the spirit and context of "Hey, somewhere in your past, you decided that you were defilement to others, Shirotani, and I love you even though you see yourself that way. In fact, I love you and cherish you BECAUSE you see yourself that way, since I desire you sexually and that sort of defilement is A-Okay with me."
I'm speculating that Takurai Rihito is pointing to that there is an okay sort of defilement (sex) and a sort of defilement which is not okay (resting one's hands on the seats of public toilets.) Shirotani confuses the two, but Kurose doesn't.
If this were the case, then the subtlety I refer to is psychological interpretation, of which language definitely plays a part, but the role of language usage can also confuse both readers and Shirotani, who seems determined to read those words in the most damning way possible (which isn't unexpected given how he reacted to the cupboard scene.)
Thank you, also, for engaging in a discussion about this point with me. It's great to get some different perspective on the story.
*squishes you*
I hope the mangaka makes that point clear as well, but I think she rather enjoys torturing her readers.
" ... And yes, it seems like Shirotani has quite the M streak in him, to the point where it really isn't healthy and he's started to materialize actual lasting ideologies (or rather, complexes). It is my opinion that he was always looking for a reason to dislike himself ..."
Exactly! He can't see himself except through these grimy, pathogen-ridden filters. He doesn't have clarity at all.
I'm actually about to teach a beginning Japanese class. I will ask my students what they think about when it is culturally acceptable to use pronouns in Japanese, and then I'll let you know of their reaction after class, along with my own lengthy reply. Do look forward to it today, and once again yoroshiku onegaishimasu~(￣∇￣")
This would be the bullet-ed list of second person pronoun notes that I derived from a conversation with my Native friend this evening:
In real life, 80% of the time "anta" would be considered inappropriate in a mature relationship.
Instances where it would be appropriate:
Between really close guy friends, kind of like how young adults typically curse at each other in a playful way
A male saying it to a female, when they're romantically involved...Like in advance stages, border-lining marriage.
A female saying it to a male/female when she's angry (A male when he's angry will likely use omae rather than anta, so there is a scale of usage rarity that correlates to the overall level of "rudeness" when looking at usages between genders)
In anime and manga culture, pronouns are used mainly to add extra "spice" to characterization, of a thematic subtly unique to the Japanese language. Usage examples of Anta in manga culture:
The person is young or immature
The person is hot tempered
The person does not respect their elders
The person is jock-y
Also, concerning Anata vs Anta, anta sounds (from a native perspective, and my own perspective as a learner) very half-assed, as if the person couldn't even put in the effort to pronounce the full vowel-consonant pair. It really does sound like that someone is looking down on you, particularly because their choice was to use anta, as a way of making themselves appear less uptight, but at the expense of being informal to you.
It's very memorable in any entertainment platform to hear a character regarding others with a pronoun, rather than with usual pleasantries. In Kurose's case, his base personality in this story is not one like those described above (ie: he isn't jock-y or particularly hot tempered). So the use of Anta really, like I described before, is made to accentuate the difference between Kurose's desires concerning Shirotani's physical and mental well-being. Between the two of them, as a pair of semi-formal, not vulgarity-prone pair, who first and foremost were a doctor and patient, it is entirely contextually wrong to be using Anta. But as I described above, I hope you can derived at least slightly the intricacies of pronoun usage in Japanese. It is very contextual.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I knew that the pronoun usage in Japanese was fraught, but I had no idea as to the extent.
It will be interesting to see where this story goes.
I think there is something a little more subtle in Kurose's speech than it sounds like.
"I came to love Shirotani-san ... It's because Shirotani-san has mysophobia."
Shirotani clearly interprets that to me that it's his mental illness that attracts Kurose, and in that case, how would it serve Kurose's agenda to cure it, but Kurose is aware that Shirotani thinks he's dirty because of some past trauma involving his father. Maybe the attraction is about getting Shirotani to accept the fact that he has already "been defiled" or "warped" (in the language and self-talk of a mysophobe) , and that he can't change the fact that this happened to him, but meanwhile, the world hasn't ended, he hasn't died and he is loved and desired ... in spite of being "dirty" and "warped". Acceptance is the first part of working through a condition like this.
"I can't help but get excited by you getting warped and you accept no one else but me."
What Shirotani thinks is warped — ie.., sex — isn't, but if he persists in thinking it is, Kurose will still love him all the way through it. That's the biggest love confession a person can give: that they are willing to love another, warts and all.
"The feeling of not wanting to hurt Shirotani-san and the feeling of defiling you so badly are both existing inside of me."
Well Kurose doesn't see Shirotani as defiled at all. He is, after all, Kurose's ideal. He loves him and doesn't want to hurt him, but also desires him — the fulfillment of which Shirotani sees as defilement. It isn't. All Kurose is saying is that he wants to break through that blockage that Shirotani has which prevents him from enjoying human touch, specifically Kurose's touch.
We can see it is Kurose's action. If he didn't care, he would've used Shirotani to get off in spite of Shirotani's misery. Instead, all he has done is help Shirotani to get off.