Dana is a victim, period.

"I don't like forced marriage, because there is nothing good or moral about it."
> no one's questioning that. getting frisky is.

I didn't say "brave". I say "forced marriage". I didn't say "deserving". I say "forced marriage".
> I said READERS with an S, it's not singular. Don't take it so personally, if you didn't say it, I don't have to spell it out so blatantly?


Since your brain can't understand that if someone is forced to marry, then that someone isn't just being "wronged" but violated at the very core of their human rights, it's not surprising you think Dana is a cheater here.
>forced marriage this and that. we're talking about being the least bit decent here, you keep on looping back to forced marriages as if it wasn't established already? Forced marriage still makes one a wife? And a wife is seen as indecent if she goes about kissing someone else who isn't the husband? Forced this, forced that, she IS married yo? Cheating WITHIN marriage is wrong? Why do you twist that simple fact?

It's an Asian story, not a French one. Asians see wife kissing another man, Asians think that's cheating. Forced marriage or not.

How is that chaos to want the same rights as everybody else ? How is that only "carnal desires" when you choose to follow your own destiny and not the one others have set for you and force on you ?
> What right? To KISS ANOTHER PERSON OUTSIDE THE MARRIAGE? You want your rights in the ancient way, there's more ways to go than doing a shortcut of just sleeping with whichever guy you like.
>what destiny? destiny to sleep with another man?

I'm sorry but French culture respects freedom, human rights, and that's the very purpose of this manga, to not let other people choose your fate. To not let your dreams, hopes and rights be taken away from you.
> No one is questioning choosing your own fate, it's the PROCESS of doing it. Can't Dana just wait a little bit longer before kissing another man?
Again, delaying your gratification is not taking away your freedom, do you know the concept of WAITING? It's not denying you of kisses forever, you won't die if you practice a little bit of restraint.

Dana didn't want to be an Empress so she don't have to be one
>And yet she IS one. Here's an analogy: You can't runaway from being a mother and abandon your children just because you don't want to be one.


hence end up with someone she didn't want.
> yeah, that's the whole point. it's the ancient times, if you want to go around and do things, there are PROPER ways to go about it, you can't just skirt around the law and get angry when you get jailed. You have to bide your time and make a proper action plan to get what you want, and that's the problem with Dana. She went about her affairs in the wrong way, and CELEBRATING that is wrong because it perpetuates selfishness and recklessness. Note I made celebrating all caps, you might not get the point of the debate again because instead of understanding my point of view, you reply for the sake of reacting. I already said it's a moot point, but you keep on pushing your liberated viewpoints in a setting of a story where they are all conservative.

Dana can certainly do a lot if she wanted to. But she is weak.
> Let's just box Dana into a weak character, but soon as she does something selfish again, hooray for Dana! it's so exhilarating for a weak woman to have the balls to cheat when she is sooo weak.

Weak women exist too, you just need to accept that.
> there are. and Dana is a fictional character. Her portrayal doesn't really add anything in the story, she could have been written as a character with depth, but if you kill her now, she doesn't really affect thr story. She is a FLAT character, I was wishing she was written more DYNAMIC by the author.

Not everybody can be like Ellin. But it's not because you are weak that you don't have basic rights.
> basic rights to be exercised with common decency and responsibility. her basic right to love another man can be exercised outside of the marriage had she kissed Moon AFTER trying to settle for a divorce or at least AFTER running away. But she did none of that. No decency or responsibility.

Are you trying to say she was in the wrong in this time period because things were more conservative back then? If you are then i get where your coming from, but why deny that Dana is a victim when she’s been through a lot of pain? I didn’t read the story and only came because i thought the conversation was really interesting so im sorry if i was misinformed. I also understand that cheating is a big no in your morals, but again why deny it so strongly? They’re giving actual good points. Or were you more disappointed that Dana wasn’t what you thought she would be. As in you’re annoyed with the author that they didn’t stick with the expectations at that time? Really just trying to understand.

she is in the wrong for kissing another man because she IS from the conservative time period. And let's be frank, she also slept with him while she's engaged to another man, from the conservative time period! Who does that and not get called for what it is in the standard of the time? Is she not indecent knowing she's from that same time period where she knows that sleeping with a man who isn't your fiance considered scandalous and immoral?

Whhhuuuut? Dana IS a victim...BUT not to the EXTENT of abuse you guys have been pushing. It was not shown in her backstory that she was EVER abused by her father BEFORE THE CONTEST. If she was abused since childhood, the author would have HINTED about the abuse, but there were no evidence, no drawing, no conversation about Dana's father abusing her when she was not yet in the contest.

I didn't say Dana was never abused, I'm saying, she was not abused during her childhood and her time with Moon. His father was portrayed as strict, but not hinted at being abusive. Now, when she was about to marry, that is the only time the author hinted that Dana's father abused her. But to jump from one flogging episode to 'abuse victiim from the start' is totally false, the story never even showed any in Dana's backstory with Moon.

YES! I was more disappointed that Dana turned out like that. You see, she showed that she goes after what she wants, she went after Moon knowing her father doesn't like him and that their social statuses are very different. Dana didn't care, she went and got the man. I applaud her for that. What disappointed me is her actions thereafter, where was that defiant Dana who loved Moon so much she was able to overcome restrictions and class difference? She didn't have to fight the system and hysterically fight his father or what, I was expecting Dana to wait for at least 1 day to see if Moon comes back before resigning that her lover is dead. I was expecting her to do something in those 9+ months as a newly minted empress. doesn't have to be leaps and bounds, just tiny things a woman CAN do in her power, no matter how limited it was.... like sending a letter to ellin, picking her own hand maids, or even just knitting a sweater? Anything that was productive at all, just to show that Dana is TRYING, despite her circumstances. Just like how Ellin, in her circumstance, tried to make a boat and failed at first. at least Ellin tried to do something, it shows Ellin has grit with that small information. That is what I wanted from Dana, a little bit of fight or hope that she is TRYING.

That lack of trying is so disappointing, and for her to be celebrated as brave (NOT for surviving abuse) but for getting back together with Moon, irks me. If Dana was celebrated for being a survivor, then that's okay, more power to the survivors and making it the main point of their admiration. But admiring Dana for getting with Moon?

The bar for Dana is so low and expectations of her are also very low, because she was not fleshed out well as a character by the author. That is the main problem.

Yes, I'm annoyed that the author made Dana's character so flat and wishy washy. She showed defiance at first when she wanted to get with Moon, that's great she's a woman who goes after the guy she wants, I like that. But soon as it's tough for her, she didn't even wait for a day just to see if Moon is truly dead or alive, had she waited just one day. And there's more, after getting flogged by her father and becoming shocked at seeing a glimpse of Moon in the wedding parade, she didn't even ask the King if he knew who is Moon because they look eerily similar... in those 9 months, the king visits her all the time, she didn't stop to ask that?

There are so many ways Dana could have been portrayed during that 9 months, but the author wrote Dana as dead as a zombie, dazed or crying, like an invalid. That was such a waste for me, her characterization could have done something but the author decided to focus on the men achieving more great shit in the world while the women wait for them to get saved.

I hope you sort of understand where I'm coming from because you seem more receptive to discussing and understanding each other's difference in opinion.

How is that so difficult to understand Dana's father forced her into a competition with the purpose of marrying her off against her will ? She didn't want to marry anyone except Moon. Plus, her ultimate alternative was either death or being exiled if she didn't succeed that very competition. It's was never her choice. Hence, that's why I've told you that "Dana didn't promised faithfulness or anything out of her own free will, her father forced her, thus her words wasn't her choice". If there is no promise made out of her own free will, there is no betrayal. If the marriage is forced, then there is no marriage either, it's only another form of abuse against a woman who didn't want anything to begin with.

You don't want to understand that forced marriage is a deep violence, but you dare talk about decency, how fantastic !

I am really getting tired of the forced marriage angle. Didn't I agree already that Dana is in a forced marriage?

I thought we've move past that point and is now discussing that despite being forced married, she could have WAITED to talk it out with the king regarding a divorce before kissing Moon?

Why do you have to keep on going back to the force marriage conversation when it's already established and accepted as an agreeable point?

Why can't you just answer why Dana could have waited a liiiiittle bit longer before getting physical again? Is it so hard for women to keep their emotions at bay and act rational, because women are rational beings, granted there are some irrational ones, but this is a fictional story okay? Dana could have been portrayed BETTER. she could have acted with a tiny bit of decency and waited for a proper conversation with the king regarding her wanting a divorce, and also if the king says Dana can't divorce, she could just move to plan B and escape with Moon. I'm sure they could have their happy ending with the physical contact happening AFTER talking things out with her husband first.

Is that so hard for you to entertain?

#1 "no one's questioning that (forced marriage is bad). getting frisky is"
- No, you just keep explaining that a forced marriage is valid, because the victim wants to divorce.

#2 "And yet she IS one. Here's an analogy: You can't runaway from being a mother and abandon your children just because you don't want to be one."
- What the fuck are talking about ? Your analogy is utter bullshit. If a woman is forced to have a child, that means she was raped ! Are you suggesting a rape victim should be the mother of a child she was forced to have ? What the actual fuck.

#3 "you keep on pushing your liberated viewpoints in a setting of a story where they are all conservative".
- You were the one explicitly telling other that if you were forced to marry someone, you wouldn't "cheat" on that man. Plus, there is nothing conservative and acceptable about a forced marriage even in an ancient setting, because even in ancient times, if a contract is establish by force, then the contract is void.

#4 "forced marriage this and that... (blabla)... Forced marriage still makes one a wife?".
- No woman is a wife, if that very woman didn't accept the marriage. No legal court would accept such a marriage as normal or valid. And there is nothing indecent about running away from such an engagement.

#5 "And a wife is seen as indecent if she goes about kissing someone else who isn't the husband?".
- You care more about what other people may think, or about what Dana's husband she was forced to marry may think, than Dana's human rights.

#6 "It's an Asian story, not a French one. Asians see wife kissing another man, Asians think that's cheating. Forced marriage or not."
- How is that the fact it's a story with Asian setting changes the fact that Dana didn't want to be Empress, didn't want to marry anyone except Moon ? Again "the very purpose of this manga is to not let other people choose your fate. To not let your dreams, hopes and rights be taken away from you."

#7 "No one is questioning choosing your own fate, it's the PROCESS of doing it. Can't Dana just wait a little bit longer before kissing another man?"
- There is no such think as the right procedure here because she was deprive of her rights !

#8 "I said READERS with an S, it's not singular. Don't take it so personally, if you didn't say it, I don't have to spell it out so blatantly ?"
- What about it ? I simply oppose to your logic, two simple words because that the very violence you keep ignoring, as if it was not the main subject and problem here. As if the very reason why you think Dana is a cheater was not because she was forced to marry someone she didn't want.

#9 "You might not get the point of the debate again because instead of understanding my point of view, you reply for the sake of reacting".
- Oh, I do understand your point of view, it's very simple, really. You think that because Dana was forced to marry, she is now a wife, and as a wife she should have some decency and act all nice and respectable to the man she was -again- forced to marry. As if the society she lives in was all nice and decent, and she should act according to the right procedure. I find that point of view fucked up that's why I keep reacting.

No, I didn't get past the "forced marriage" angle because there is nothing past that point.

You don't get that Dana don't have to wait because she was deprive of her rights. Why would someone follow the rule of those that oppress them ? Why should Dana follow the right procedure when the right procedure wasn't applied to her ?

so basically, it's everybody else's fault that Dana is in her current situation. And she is not responsible for anything at all for the whole duration of the webtoon.

And then you say you're conservative and catholic but condone abortion and cheating.

I get it, it's your culture to believe these wrong things for me as right for you.

Moot point.

my opinion of cheating is freedom for you.

got it.

I totally understand how you were annoyed Dana was just being a damsel in distress, but i do think your idea of how women should act is a bit flawed. I get that in that time her actions were wrong, but i think what other people are saying is that she is brave for pushing those boundaries and doing what she wants. Im slightly getting the impression that you are still using old standards to this day, but if not then good for you. You can totally abide to those standards yourself, just don’t push it onto other people. This “debate” has been going on for too long. I think everyone is giving solid points, its just a matter of opinion. The lines between right and wrong are pretty blurred because everyone has such different strong opinions on everything. Live how you want as long as you don’t bother and hurt others. Let’s be nice here.

Yes, Dana isn't responsible of anything, because she didn't get to choose her fate. One can only be at fault of their own decisions, not the decisions of others. Dana was married off against her will, against her consent, hence nothing about that can be her responsibility.

Yes, I'm a conservative French woman, and you didn't see me "condone abortion" but basically telling you that if a raped victim gets pregnant, it's against her will and so she can runaway of being a mother. And just so you know, one can runaway of being a mother in many ways.

I get it too, it's your culture to believe abused victims are partly responsable of their fate, when in my culture we fight for those victims rights.

My opinion of defending victims of forced marriage is cheating for you.

Got it.

I think @Ryu and I are exactly the same. We both know the other is wrong, because the other is wrong.

As for myself, in my own country, some girls and women are still forced to marry men they don't want. I've known a case of a girl just like Dana. A weak girl, deeply and foolishly in love of her childhood friend.

She was abused, traumatized by her own family, because she was a muslim but wanted to marry a christian. Her family forced her to marry another man. Hence, she was forced to have a fiancé she didn't want. Yet she was still with the man she had choose for herself.

That girl -again- just like Dana, wasn't abused since the beginning of her childhood, but one time, her father, mother, and brothers, beat the shit out of her, they even shaved her, and without the protection of French law, she would've end up either dead or married off against her will.

According to the logic of @Ryu, if that girl was engaged to another man by forced, she should've at least the decency to break free of their engagement with a right procedure. Since she didn't do that, according to the logic of @Ryu -again- she was cheating on her fiancé.

I said "if a mother doesn't want their children"
Not rape victims. Are rape victims the only mothers who don't want their children? What about those who had consensual sex and accidentally got pregnant?

I didn't say rape victims, you did. This is the reason why I say you don't reply to the conversation with the intent to understand but instead you reply with the intent to just react.

You're so short sighted on winning an argument that we don't really get to understand each others point of view, I've given leeway on some of your points because they are sound but instead of according the same amount of understanding, you just turn more abrasive and stubborn.

I get it, your point of view leans on the social contstruct of egoism and mine is on the opposite spectrum which is altruism. And instead of finding balance with each others views, you hurl accusations like 'oh rape victims are this and that for you' ....if you're just going to keep putting words in my mouth to win, then you can have it.

I thought we'd at least reach some understandings but you're just going bananas over semantics and not really absorbing the meaningful exchanges of ideas.

Eww?

Don't lump me in with your personal experiences with real life people.

According to my logic? Have you read the conversations we have AT ALL?

Dana didn't want out from the marriage until she found out her ex was alive, her drive for a divorce isn't because she was married off, her drive for divorce was so she could get back with Moon. That's why I said there needs to be a proper procedure because a third party is involved. If you don't follow the proper procedure of breaking the marriage lawfully, then Dana and Moon can get beheaded for treason against the King.

Does that kind of drive apply to your friend?

If your muslim friend cheated with another man, then I'm sorry I'm calling it like what it is. Cheating.

Having said that, your friends' relatives were wrong to abuse her whether the reason is cheating or not. I don't agree with that kind of treatment.

And if cheating IS the problem, then the husband and wife have to talk about that and not have their relatives butt in because it is a private matter between them.

So no, don't twist my words against me.

I'm sorry for your muslim friend by the way, I hope she's doing okay.

Are you for real ? Your analogy have to be consistant with the story. If Dana was forced to marry, then in your "mother doesn't want their children" analogy, the woman is also forced to have a child. In that case, there is no consensual sex possible. Your analogy isn't good, that's all.

Yes, I can't bring myself to be anything else but short sighted with your arguments, because you want a woman to be decent and altruist with a man she didn't choose. For you, Dana is partly responsible of her fate, when all the decisions concerning her were made by others.

Of course I'm talking about our real world - because you were the one explaining in the comments bellow that if you were forced to marry someone you didn't want, you wouldn't cheat on your unwanted husband. And I keep asking you how is that possible to cheat on someone you didn't choose ? If you can't give your consent out of your own free will, then there is no consent.

Plus, Dana didn't want to get married to anybody except Moon. She was forced to enter a competition with the purpose of getting married off against her will, with the alternative of either die or being exiled. How can she give her consent out of her own free will in that case ?

Yes, her drive for divorce was so she could get back with Moon, meaning so she could choose the man she always wanted out of her own free will.

She wasn't my friend, just a poor girl in another town near mine. Still, she was in love with someone else, but her parents forced her to get a new fiancé of their choosing. Her family beat the shit out of her when she confessed she was still with her christian boyfriend. Why would one respect the proper way of doing things, when that same proper way wasn't applied to them ? You didn't answer.

And I can't get how you could think that she cheat on her fiancé when she didn't want to be with him in the first place. One can only be at fault if one gets to make the decisions. Her decision was to marry one man, it was not to be forced to marry another.

Agree with@lor_g ... And @tenifo . Sorry if I butchered the username . Let's end this. I don't want any more notifications filled with the same stuff... Jk, do what you want.

Honestly just wanna say my opinion, her actions no matter what the reason is still wrong. It's like saying 'oh this guy went through abuse as a child that's why he is very violent', her past only explains why she act that way but doesn't justify the actions. Also it isn't just about how she 'cheated' on the king but also about her actions, you can't deny sometimes she is very impulsive in regards with following how she feels only. Not to mention that it's always about how she cannot do this or how she feel scared but I rarely ever see her think about other people's position. So far she hasn't done much for her self, less for others. She has never really took any initiative to do anything even when she knows they are putting their efforts. Can we also comment about how toxic dana and moon's relationship was? It's always moon doing the work while she expect everything to be done by him. She never even told him she was married, and yet had the energy and sense to indulge in pleasure with him without telling him anything and never really apologies and yet expect him to fight for her?!? This is just how she went down from okay to dislike for me. Her character is just really self-centered and even now her regrets for the king is really shallow. You can say about how she had a tough life, but she isn't the only one. Yet she is the only one who I find it to be the most selfish and useless character ever in the whole story. Also to add on even if she didn't liked the king, couldn't she at least provide some comfort for him? When he was at his lowest? You see I can understand your point but honestly my sympathy for her can't reach your level because she isn't a child not is she someone who isn't equipped with the necessary understanding to understand her actions or behaviour in general but just her being ignorant and blindly follow her own feelings instead of actually being aware of her the consequences of her actions. I mean that's just I really feel about her, just can't bring myself to even pity her. Feel free to disagree ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Hii... When you started with those lines... Let me just say, Chef's kiss.
If this were a movie or something I'd hate Dana. She's too much like Christian Grey .
But, it's a manga that can be as long as 200 chapters... My liking for her can change anytime in these 209 chapters. Coz she'll have a growth that will be astronomical! It's like, she'll be a pheonix that rises above the standards of whatever century she is in and she'll be a modern day female that's independent.
I'm saying this because I think more about the possible future of her life and the possibility that she has to be a good human (manga character). That's why I like her....
Now, I've stated my opinion.
Let me go and die off this website for awhile （￣へ￣）

True, hopefully that will be the case, cause the way I see she has a lot to improve and reflect on. Your welcome, you can go and die now. Lol jk