If he really had a twin, one die doesn't it means that he's the rightful heir?
Ciel Phantomhive, the real heir doesn't sum it. Since Ciel die, that's mean he's eligible for the next heir. Am I wrong?
I'd say you're right.
There's a bunch of speculations that people have come up with as to why he would've taken his name, I think they're pretty consistent with the whole theory.
- Judging from ch.92 line he may have had an inferiority complex towards his brother.
- He was engaged to Lizzy, everyone had high hopes for him, so his death was a bigger loss so he thought that everyone would be happier if his brother survived and not him.
- To him it is a constant reminder of why he is seeking revenge.
- He envied him, as he was adored by everyone. Even Vincent at the party always looked to his right. Him being sickly, he didn't make much of an impression on others, so he took his name instead.
- He wanted others to now look up to him instead of being seen as the sickly weak boy (which he's been hiding since then).
Just theorizing by the way, I'm not claiming that any of this was confirmed. It's just for fuun.
making a summary
You're saying their are two Ciel, one shy and the other cheerful, the cheerful one die on the altar right? then why did he said "why do you seek with the power you seek by sacrificing me?" http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c095/pg-5/
while he was unwillingly taken away?
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c090/1.html/pg-17/
This doesn't make sense...
the one killed Ciel should have been them not Sebastian right
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c090/1.html/pg-18/
It's not clarify
Probably the real Ciel, when he was sacrificed, contacts Sebastian and wishing his brother to be saved from that horrible place, and Sebastian, fulfilled the wish of the original Ciel, making the other Ciel seal a contract with him (because he is a fucking demon, two souls, why not?) The other Ciel, wishing revenge on those who have wronged him and his family... I said sorry for my english? haha.
"p4 "Why do you seek revenge with the power you gained by sacrificing me / at my sacrifice"
-> *translation problem: it can be interpreted either way."
Dear native japanese speaker output. I'm far from doubting her, but since I'm curious I'll download the raws when they come out to see what this is all about.
This is one of the confusing and unclear parts, I'll give you that. I kind of always brushed it off and just wondered about it (since the whole altar scene isn't all that clear to begin with). So I made some researches:
Here would explain just about everything. I quite like it, but it's rather long, so I'll just give you the link:
http://forums.blackbutler.net/showthread.php?8012-The-Two-Ciels-Theory-V2&p=424841&viewfull=1#post424841
In short: "A chance, as fine as a spider thread was sent to me, offering the choice to crawl out, and I decided to take it,” says the Young Master in chapter 19, page 14. It could indeed mean that he did not expect a demon to be summoned and offer him a contract. Or it could mean that there was the slightest chance that a demon would appear if he made a sacrifice, and he chose to do it by pushing forward his brother.
By the way, the spider thread quote: "That is a very recognisable reference to the famous Japanese short story "The Spider's Thread." Here is the Wikipedia link:* http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spider's_Thread"
In chapter 13.2 page 12, Sebastian really wants to know whether the Young Master thought killing a relative was going too far, to which the Young Master eventually answers that Madame lost track of the chess game when she hesitated before killing him, so she is dead by her own fault. Then at page 16 he says “that’s why I did not hesitate,” and Sebastian is seemingly shocked for a second. Please do correct me if I am wrong, but hadn’t they just agreed that the Young Master had indeed hesitated when it came to killing Madame Red? In my opinion, what the Young Master meant was that when he had to sacrifice his own relative, his brother, in order to advance his own position, he did not hesitate.
His brother was the “king” who would inherit everything, but he was defeated by the Young Master. Hence the chess reference which keeps resurfacing.
It is possible that the Young Master was jealous and all, however he also feels guilty for what he has done. That is why he tells Finny that he is "not worth protecting," but then he tells Sebastian that he is a "selfish, self-righteous human being." Maybe he both loved and hated his brother."
But that's just one supposition. I still haven't read the whole thing myself, and I don't expect everyone to keep up with it lol. I put hours and hours into searching info for it, because I rather enjoy seeing the different possibilities, but I can't possibly mention every single thing that makes me think it is highly plausible here.
There are still loopholes, which we'll probably get some explanations in the future (should this theory ever come true). I believe you can think by yourself and come with your your own conclusions guys, wether it involves this one in some way or not.
I myself am not convinced by the pushing part, but I now can't help but think it is highly possible that he must have done something along those lines. He is an opportunist after all.
Again, I just think that looking further into this is fun. It's like assembling a puzzle, one I still haven't finished to this day :3
Yeah, you can also speculate into that direction. The only real quote we have from his brother is "I'll protect you", there could probably be some meaning behind it.
""The fee to cross the river has already been paid" in CH 62 and he licks his lips as if he's eaten something, again in CH 62, this scene http://www.kuroshitsuji.org/62/02/ where Sebastian looks around the room in search of Ciel, you would assume it's because Ciel was the one who summoned him; but why doesn't he automatically know that? Ciel also isn't doing anything that shocking that suggests he has summoned anybody. But let's say Sebastian saw the real Ciel previously and made that "contract" with him, it wouldn't take much to find another boy in the same room that looks just like him. Sebastian then says to our Ciel that he has the choice to make a contract or not, but the fee to cross the river has already been paid. Possibly referring to the real Ciel's sacrifice for our Ciel's protection.
Then in CH 95 Sebastian asks Ciel why he put his soul at stake to make a contract with him. Ciel then says he did this so he could have power. This is a very selfish act, even after the real Ciel sacrifices his own life for our Ciel's safety he throws it away for the demons power so that he can get revenge on the ones who did this to them; almost making his brothers sacrifice meaningless. In the same chapter the other Ciel also says to Ciel "Because of that choice you made", "Do you want me to forgive you" and "With the power you gained by sacrificing me" (Ciel's sacrifice for his own life for his brothers) which both would make sense with the context of this theory.
But if you were to say Ciel saw his brother make the contract with Sebastian and then was offered the choice to make a contract or not and have his wishes filled, he is aware that he will have the demons protection but not his power. So Ciel sacrifices his soul to the demon so that he will also gain his power. So perhaps he does this, and it would also explain why Ciel seems to hold no extreme resentment towards Sebastian despite the fact he took his brothers soul, seeing as they now have both done the same thing."
Giving you guys long reads lol.
I kinda started this.. but the above explanation is just reallyyy WOOOWWW.. kinda open my eyes.. the two ciel theory is not really new right? Its not my theory. i've read it from someones comment before. I've doubted it before. but there's just, you know "new evidence" that support it. but all the speculation and theories are just for fun. it'll be really awesome if the truth were like absolutely different from the readers theory right. that's the fun in reading manga right? the one who knows is just the mangaka. so lets have a peaceful discussion and we can have a vote for who agrees on the "twin" theory or not.. hahahahahaha.. btw, it's reaally entertaining seeing how there's lot of you who obsessed on things just like me.. hhahahaha..
Tehehe
As I said, I don't 100% believe in every little things she says. I'd say I would take a bit more than 50% of what she said. I don't think anyone could ever agree on everything over this much text. It's just her own interpretation, I took from it what I wanted as someone who can think for herself. What I quoted were the parts I thought were interesting.
As for "conspiring against his brother", I thought he could have pushed him on a without hesitation on a quick whim when he freaked out when he saw the men arrive to get one of them, then quickly felt guilty about it and called out for him. I don't see how it would be impossible for a 10 years old child to do that. And then he started to think he was really selfish.
I don't see how plausible it is that a child made a contract with a demon to get revenge. Really, this is just fiction to me, so about realisticness...
What I actually believe is what really happened, I don't really know. I've been thinking about it for like two hours lol. Right now I'm just trying to work up my brain and take into consideration the multiple possibilities. And I don't really mind if you buy into it or not lol, so really, do as you please.
@a long ramble ahead
I'd quite enjoy it if Yana surprised us with something no one has ever thought of! The less predictable the better it is :D
He didn't push him they were holding hands he was unwillingly taken away (ch 90 pg 13 to 18)
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c090/1.html/pg-17/
his only subject of conformation was taken away, that's when he call Sebastian
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/kuroshitsuji-chapter-61.html/23/
It' still unclear since the author still keep it a mystery
For Ciel summoning, was all a coincidence
Ciel was a demon sacrifice, they were trying to summon demons (organization) by that (ch 62 pg 2 to 5)
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c092/pg-14/
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/kuroshitsuji-chapter-62.html/2/
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/kuroshitsuji-chapter-62.html/3/
I don't know what he really by price to cross the bridge but we'll see it eventually I guess
I don't necessarily think that them holding hands was just right before they took them away from each other. Yana just skipped so much things. But you see, I prefer the other theory. Ciel sacrificed his soul for Our!Ciel, then Our!Ciel decided to make a contract with Sebastian to revenge himself anyway. Then again, the whole scene has a whole lot of holes to begin with.
It's just the part with “that’s why I did not hesitate,” that piqued my attention on this one.
And then "A chance, as fine as a spider thread was sent to me, offering the choice to crawl out, and I decided to take it,”
But really, we're dealing with a translation. I'm sure Yana elaborated every single panel as well as every single line, so it takes a single misinterpretation or mistake for a sentence to lose its original meaning (or really, the language in itself, which doesn't have the same abiguities). The online one is full of those, I've read that the official English translation still has some but less anyway.
"It was a very minor mistranslation, and I see how it happened, but the slightest change in wording changes everything."
Here's what she's referring to:
As you can see, in the online version, Ciel says 'I'm arrogant but...not so much that I'd irresponsibly save someone just to brag about it.' Then Sebastian says 'Exactly.'
However, in the official translated printed version, in Volume 8, Ciel says 'I am indeed arrogant. However...I'm not so arrogant as to boast irresponsibly that I can save anyone.' Then Sebastian says 'Is that so?'"
That's also what I noticed with other mangas, like Viewfinder. The official french translation, be it accurate or not, completely changed my view on certain things. It really doesn't take much. So really, overanalysing those sentences might not be the best thing to do, what do I know. I was interested on the "crawl out" part, but really, for all I know that might not be what he actually said lol.
That's also how I feel when I translate. There's so much subtilities lost when translating from French to Engllish that it's a shame. You just choose what is closer and try your best to keep the original meaning, but it doesn't work that well all the time.
Ah well x)
the all scarifying thing is not clarified, let's wait until we get more clues.
Well I think Ciel has some mental issue, when he was talking to his selves sort of thing (ch93 pg 10 to 15) and (95 pg 3-4)
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c093/pg-10/
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c095/pg-3/
that's how I see it... you don't agree do you?
Well, it does seem like it. I don't see how that scene couldn't be psychological (I mean, it's all in his head) and also refer to the twin. It's not like his brother was brought back to life and went into his dream, I believe the puppets are all from his imagination.
Because Madam Red and all the other characters are there at the same level that the second Ciel. I'd think he was thinking of all the people who died because of him.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c095/pg-16/
Though this was triggered by the mustard gas. I think it affected people psychologically (in the manga at least)?
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c087/1.html/pg-4/
That guy doesn't seem like he's mentally sane. He "went off his rocker with shock".
I'd say I it is highly possible that it wasn't only the mustard gas, but when Sebastian put the thing in his mouth. That's when his flashback started; Sebastian triggered his memories back with it, since it was the same thing that the men were using to feed him.
The whole thing was just harsh on him to think he could keep himself sane. First his whole body is swolling and burning, then Sebastian nearly drowns him and he looks panicked and want to breath, and then he triggers back bad memories with the thing. The whole thing just look so stressful.
So to me that was a temporary state. It doesn't mean he was crazy and had mental issues all this time.
What I mean by mental issue is slip presonality, otherwise he wouldn't say this to himself (ch93 pg 10 to 15)
He said that to "himself" at the same level the other characters like Madam Red, Joker, Vincent and Sebastian told him things in there. I'm not sure why there would be multiple characters AND a split-personality presented in the same way. I'd say the nature of their apparition is all the same, but that's judt me.
And seeing Sebastian's reaction, it wasn't actually him in the dream. Ciel just came up with the scenario on his own, and it seems to be a dream of some sorts.
And yeah, I'm not denying he went bonkers. Was he always that way? Probably not, at least Bard said it was a normal reaction when someone gets wounded unexpetedly. Like the mustard gas attack, which he seems to be referring to.
See told you so!!! Ciel is a child going through that much ordeal as a child must have had a second effect on him...Then Sebastian started on acting crazy, as over zealous about it.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c095/pg-19/
he must be thinking darn my meal's almost ready!!!
(ch 99 pg 20 10 22)
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/v18/c099/pg-20/
Myeah.
Well Ciel is a disturbed child overall, and Sebastian probably enjoys that.
The thing I don't buy into is that the second Ciel is his split-personality or innocence. Aside from that, what's going on in his head, I don't know. I think that this specific part was only caused by the mustard gas incident.
The thing I noticed is that people seem to categorize people into theories as if they can only be black or white. I personally believe split-personality or worse, symbolism is a bit much, but he can have PTSD or something like that anyway. I'm not so sure about the evidences of that, but I wouldn't have a problem with that.
"such as disturbing recurring flashbacks, avoidance or numbing of memories of the event, and hyperarousal"
That's kind of what we see. He does have recurring flashbacks and his memories are kind of unclear. So why not. That doesn't mean he made up memories. Hyperarousal, I don't know, maybe just after the events he was kind of that way but he more or less calmed down since then. Not that PTSD causes the same symptoms on each persons.
Though that's probably what it was in this instance. In that sense, yes, this scene is psychological. It doesn't rule out the twin though, far from that.
That's what I was thinking at least.
Don't forget, Yana said the last chapters were psychological. You also have the potential of grammar mistakes in the earlier chapters, et cetra.
She said Ciel's psychological description was more dynamic.
Unless you're referring to something else I'm not aware of?
Anyway, it is psychological, yes. Isn't it obvious that it's in his head?
i really sorry for my bad english but the "twins theory" caught my attention so i wanted to look information that would convince me and i found in tumblr a picture where explain through the manga;
https://data.archive.moe/board/a/image/1408/14/1408142726454.png