Nobody needs to do a thing. Nobody here advocates rape. The depiction of rape within yaoi is not real, and is nothing like the real thing. To confuse the boundary between fiction and reality, as you have done, is insanity. So stop telling people to act psychotic and to confuse their fantasies with real acts of violence against real people.
If anyone SHOULD do anything (as you are so fond of telling others), you should go reflect on psychology, the language of symbols and the subconscious mind. At least, then, you wouldn't come off as stupid on top of crazy. You might still have to work on that dictatorship thing you've got going on, but that's not our problem.
You just want to have your fun without holding your responsibility. You keep saying that just because it's fiction it's not a problem. You are really minimizing the problem. That the story have rape, ok. But if you threat rape as something ok on story, it don't stop just there. It propagates the rape culture, where people are ok to see it in fictions, then when it happens in real life, people just don't care. "It's the victim fault probably" "The victim seduced the rapist so the victim deserve it". Yeah, so you will feel more empathy for the rapist instead of the victim IRL. This is just as how stuffs don't stop in fiction if the topic(of rape) is badly handled. When it's not just one or other author, when people start to want more and more of those stories, what culture will you be building about how to deal with rape? Just because you know its just fiction(that rape is wrong in real life), you expect everyone who read to know?
OMG. I'm being schooled by someone who clearly has no real life experience or street cred with actual rape victims about rape culture. That is a joke. You probably got all your information about it from a website, too. One of those forum-y things where every dog's biscuit is thrown into the mix and stirred.
NO! I don't even follow much rape-trope (not really my thing), and I certainly have no interest in shota, but I know that the (mostly) women that do read it are not reading it literally (as you do), that when it shows up in their mangas, it usually represents something entirely different than rape, and they certainly do NOT support real life rape or rape culture, and they would be appalled and insulted at the very suggestion as they should be, and a normal sample (to reflect the population in real life) are, in fact, survivors of real life rape, domestic abuse and, sometimes, childhood sexual abuse. They read it because it's nothing like real life. So, this is not about my pleasure.
It's about calling out an ignorant and self-righteous crusader from shaming and berating the readers on this site. It's about telling you to educate yourself about psychology so you know what you're talking about when it comes to fiction, fantasy and fetish, not something you made up about them. Hold authors responsible for what they write? They ARE responsible. They are conduits for creative expression. Not only do you not know about real rape culture, but you don't know anything about art.
Furthermore, if you actually gave a damn about rape victims, you would drop this business about telling others what to do. Because that's what rapists do. So, you've got all the terminology of fighting rape culture down, and none of the true spirit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture
"Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape."
You say that the way the stories trivialize rape is not a problem? =__=
Just because it's fiction it's not trivializing?
wow...
You talk like you know about the subject. But you ignore some basic factors
And still goes on about "it's just fiction" "real life can't be affected by fiction" and now goes with "you know nothing about rape culture" your next card is gonna be "I talked with rape victims so I know more". Ok, <irony>having a african-descendent friend will definitely makes you NO racist</irony>....
Front-line sexual assault crisis support and intervention for years ... decades. I can tell within seconds of the subject being started when somebody has had no experience with real life rape victims. I can within seconds when a person who has had no experience with real life rape victims suddenly starts spouting off about all they "know".
Again, you keep going on about rape (especially rape-trope) in stories as if it's like rape in real life. You don't know what you're talking about and it shows.
You also just interpret it as a " self-righteous crusader from shaming and berating the readers on this site"
About the psychology issue, then go ahead and give me some academic sources that say that this rape culture trivialized on books will just keep being a creative outlet and will not become a way of educating people to guilty the victims. I know plenty of friends that for years had ideas strengthened by those "fantasies" in a subconsciously way. In general everyone says "rape is wrong" then add "but..."
Even as pieces of art, stories are about spreading ideologies too! And some you will think as normal and mundane stuffs. Not everyone will from the start think certain acts are rape! Marital is quite common but many victims still don't acknowledge those are rape because they are married.
And I'll just add another thing, art is subject for criticism! It can be good and still have problems! The way you come to defend it is like it should be immune to those.
Plus you assume that just because the public target are women, it won't spread the rape culture. Yeah, like women can't also spread it by thinking the victims are guilty or in some extreme cases, like a women can't rape.
If I have experience with victims or not is not the point.
This don't change that depending on how the subject is taken in a piece of art it can be in a way to trivialize rape culture.
seems like this thing just reposted an old reply, ok reposting again:
If I have experience with victims don't change my point:
The way rape is handled in many yaois keep trivializing rape culture
"'They read it because it's nothing like real life. So, this is not about my pleasure. "
On this point, for the most part, yeah, it might not be. But some ideologies like "men are all like that" "women are just rivals in love" "the victim made him/her self an easy target" are there, and are real, and reflects on real life. That's why I say, depending on how it's handled it will enforce certain ideologies. The younger you are, the less reference you will have to differentiate from reality. Just because in many aspects it's far from your reality, it(the piece of art) will still propagate some ideology. Even if it's far away from your reality you will also identify a lot with the human side of characters(depending also from what perspective it's taken)
Art/stories can also help one build ideologies that can reinforce rape culture. That's why it should be also subject to criticism
Experience matters. Without it, you're just pulling crap out of your buttocks and calling it dinner. Rape in yaoi (or romance fiction) is not like rape in real life. Without that connection established, the likeness of one to the other, the fundamental premise upon which your argument is based does not exist. It's just unsupported bullshit.
Art criticism requires a critical approach: a thesis statement, an argument to support it based on premises validated by evidence and anecdote. You've made your thesis statement, but it's unsupported. You've base your argument on fairy dust.
Rape in yaoi is, almost always, never like rape in real life. Since most readers do not read rape-trope literally, I doubt you will convince them of the pressing urgency of how they are turning into insensitive rape-ignorers and excusers. You won't because they aren't.
Experiences matter yeah.
But doesn't change the point of trivializing rape
You can't trivialize rape when there is no rape.
Oh look, you get the last word because I'm done repeating myself, too.
So your argument is basically, because of the public target who have no connection with any possibility of those experiences this, makes them absent of guilty. (even from the part of trivializing rape)
You know the target public aren't the only readers, right? You know, aside women, men (gays) sometimes read those too, right? Also your argument sounds like rape is ok in hentai too as long as the only public target are the men and the fiction is too far from reality(like tentacles rape), since they can't empathize with the victims.
Also if all my argument is invalid, it doesn't hurt to look for academic papers about the subject about yaoi, rape and child pornography: http://www.academia.edu/3993473/The_Prevalence_of_Rape_and_Child_Pornography_in_Yaoi
Some interesting parts:
"rape is the means, however violentand non-normative, by which the masculine
seme expresses his love "
( yeah it's so far from reality and can't count as nocive ideology even for women to identify in some way, as if)
(Oh, just to point one thing, I never said it's not ok to enjoy the good part of the stories, just that we can't be ok with the romanticized rape. Which I don't think is ok to fetishize)
so... you are saying fictions can't have rape?
Mostly of your points seems based in this:
http://www.academia.edu/3993473/The_Prevalence_of_Rape_and_Child_Pornography_in_Yaoi
It's a pity, but it doesn't have much material about how it reflects on lgbqt, only for how it reflects for straight women, which is ok
http://japaneselit.net/tag/yaoi-fantasy-rape/ Hmmm another similar opinion to yours buuuut....
"but I believe that the yaoi rape fantasy undermines mainstream rape culture in two ways. First, it allows female-gendered people to express their sexuality without fear of being criticized. Second, it allows female-gendered people to express their sexuality in a way that doesn’t reiterate and reinforce the unequal power dynamic between the sexes that is on display in so many other realms of cultural, social, political, and religious discourse."
It's a big leap in logic as the author of text says. by being yaoi I think it already allow female-gendered ppl to express sexuality, much more with the uke and seme dinamic. Yaoi Fantasy rape would be just an unnecessary extra to do it, and even if gays and fundanshis aren't the target, it's still sounds like "as long as the target readers can't rape it's ok". Just as it's not ok to fetish women being raped, why would be ok to fetish gay men and queers to be raped?
ok, I've done some research, so what you are defending is the "rape" fantasy (the role play type I guess?).
And as yaoi is targeted to women it "should" be ok.
It still doesn't sit well for me since it's using an group of people(gay) who already suffer discrimination and they by themselves also suffer from rape. The dehumanization of another oppressed group for the sake of fantasy of straight women doesn't sit well in my head.
I can understand better if "romanticized rape"/"rape" fantasy where done for it's own group tbh. Honestly it's a new topic for me. You are right in many points, but for me a lot of stuffs are still out of my comprehension. Like, is it really ok to express "rape" w/out consent as an "good" thing? If it's roleplay it's easier to understand, but as not consented on fiction it's harder to understand, since no is no, unless talked and planned beforehand as a roleplay.
Nope. To quote Magritte, "C'est ne pas une pipe."
Rape in yaoi or romance literature is not rape. Rape in art is not rape.
Back in the Edwardian era, some control-freakish women like you decided that the statues of lions made for Trafalgar Square in London should not have the penis, balls or ball-sacs that the artist had sculpted them with, even though they were male lions. Their reasoning was exactly like yours. They believed the sight of balls on male lion sculptures would arouse people into having uncontrolled and inappropriate sex. The fact that this had never. ever happened didn't stop them. Because they were True Believers, and belief trumps everything including reason, intelligence, common sense and taste. They pitched a big fit until the balls were removed, and accomplished exactly nothing. Nothing changed in society, because there was no correlation between the genitalia and anything they were afraid of. It was just a bunch of crazy ladies destroying art and ruining things for everyone.
I know I won't convince you, True Believer. Fortunately, I don't have to.
any yaoi with rape but in the end they'll end up together. either the seme is the older than the uke (vice versa)
THANK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <3