Is Haesoo lithromantic?

Ok. K have enough. Now we are getting personal?
"Do you do realize that if someone who demonstrated JW’s behavior you would understand that it is unhealthy and recommend that they get some type of professional help right?? If you can clear that up with me I’m completely fine with ending this discussion."
If my answer would not be to your liking you are gonna classify me as uneducated ignorant or someone with mental problems?
Like seriously you don't understand your tone. Please stop acting like parent talking to small child or psychotherapist. It's literally not your place.

I will never ever agree that for Joowon Haesoo is nothing more than object, SLAVE, puppy, object he wanted to manipulate and control.

Yes at times some of his actions were manipulatative because he wanted Haesoo by his side. Because he couldn't have offered him a real relationship.

And what's more important to notice both of them clearly manipulated the relationship. It's try to talk only about one side when tlwr talk about their relationship. Two people create relationship.
Haesoo's own words " My tendency to bare my claws, to choose words which got under the skin. The relationship I twisted and manipulated I craved obsessive love".

Am I excusing or justifying such behaviour? No.
Was Joowon's ways at times unhealthy? Definitely.
Did/does he need help? Definitely.
And not only him in this story.

It's hard to talk about one side when we talk about their relationship*

Ok so now I sounded rude. It didn't mean to... But it really rubbed me in the wrong way when things start to get personal and someone is starting to use patronising tone and some psychotherapy through internet...just what?

And it hurts more because I always try to be objective (in the end we are all a little bit biased). I never said Joowon is Saint. Or that he didn't do any wrong. He did. No one is denying that. But I think your view...at least to me is a little bit extreme.
Like I said he needs therapy. He also has problem with dealing with anger etc. So he has some issues he should deal with. Because they are hurting him and can hurt or hurt already others.
Once again I'm not denying that.

Why do you keep placing a tone on my words?? I’m super indifferent to all of this now, quite tired of it actually. I’m not trying to parent you... I don’t know you.. The whole point of a discussion is to be enlightened by both sides. I was enlightened, I hope you were enlightened. However, for me, there is a large point I would like to come out of this: which is an understanding that JW behavior is not healthy and anyone who demonstrates it has unhealthy behavior.

I say this because people seem to think this is just fictional and can never happen in real life. That’s not true. JW could very well be a real person and you’ve extensively justify this behavior. Which can lead me to believe that you would justify that behavior in real life which is unhealthy. I am trying to have a discussion with you about why that not good. You can agree or disagree with my claims. I just asked that question to confirm your stance on the topic and not misunderstand what you’re saying.

I explicitly stated those examples were extremes to get the point across. And that JW is not the extreme so you’re just being willfully ignorant. Once again the object is just common analogy. I tried to explain why it’s a common analogy with dehumanization. If you don’t agree, that’s fine.

I beg to differ. They met up again as adults he definitely could have offered him a real relationship, I mean they had time to play games with each other. Trust me I have a whole lot to say about HS. I actually he is a much more interesting case. However, JW stands out is because he’s been consistently bad and only now is he seeing MAYBE some character development. Also would to point out a few things: JW is older, JW initiated the relationship, JW set the parameters for the relationship (“don’t fall in love with me”), and at some point Taku tells HS that he learned all his bad behavior from one person, JW, and HS didn’t deny it. This implies that JW taught HS all his bad behaviors, which I’d can see because manipulation and lying, among other things, is learned behavior. However, HS is not innocent especially when he continued this behavior as an adult knowing it’s bad. But again, we were talking about JW because that who you were talking about.

I’m glad that you finally acknowledge clearly his behavior is not justifiable. But when you continue to justify him, given his behavior, there can be a misunderstanding and I misunderstood

I’m sorry if you thought I was rude or patronizing in anyway. was literally just trying to understand what your stance was on this point. I did not set out with this to be extreme or whatever. But you kind of kept justifying him, so I was like maybe I should put it in this perspective or that way so you could understand my point. From my point, you look like a diehard JW stan. Like you saw nothing wrong with him so you can imagine from my perspective how that’s concerning. I don’t think anyone in this series is an angel. I think they all need therapy. But it kept feeling like you were just exempting JW and giving him excuses, so I just kept trying to convince you. But I mean if I can’t convince you it’s fine.

Ok. I'm really not enjoying our discussion sorry.
Joowon is older by YEAR if not months. So it's lame argumentation. Don't fall for me was said after Haesoo's mum caught them. In his head he was protecting their family or Haesoo. Or maybe both of them (himself and Haesoo and their family). In the end of didn't work.
Isn't it easy to blame someone for your own bad habits? Even better ALL of your bad habits? To put blame on someone's shoulder?
What's more the story is said mostly through Haesoo's eyes. We mostly see the worst of his and Joowon's relationship.
They met again (few years after divorce?) when Joowon was most likely depressed and hit mentally the bottom when he was already famous. And then Haesoo magically appeared once again in his life and saved him.
Their family situation shaped their relationship. Haesoo's always felt as if he was doing something wrong, most likely it went both way. There is also problem of Haesoo's mum and his and her bond. They used to be closed. What's more Joowon feared rejection.

By understanding someone's actions.... You don't automatically justify them or excuse them...

His behaviour was unhealthy at times and shouldn't be excused. That's common sense and logic.

I finally acknowledged.... I'm in this comment section for months. I always said he made mistakes and his actions were unhealthy at times. Nice one

O was being sarcastic not willfully ignorant..but ok.

Like there are many scenes which I seriously don't like and where really wrong from Joowon's side (about Haesoo dying, bj in car or cumming inside Haesoo when he didn't want that... Or showing into his house without agreement).
He wronged Haesoo. It's clear.
But most of this comment section actually act as if Haesoo didn't do ANY wrong or that K is also prince without one flaw.
When Imo all of them have their own, different flaws.

And I'm curious of this sentence "JW stands out is because he’s been consistently bad" ... Like I guess every nice gesture, every time he was worried or thought he was protecting Haesoo. It was mostly to show how gracious he is and to manipulate Haesoo even more? There was nothing genuine about it? Or was it only empty obsession?

Author showed ID photos of them and it was said Joowon took a photograph and Haesoo said it looked nice that's why he use it then as ID photo. Once again it is only obsession?
Because although we can agree there are very bad moments and Joowon made mistakes. There were Imo moments when he genuinely cared and was worried about Haesoo or thought he knew better and he was protecting him without real consideration of Haesoo's feelings.

I don’t enjoy this either anymore. You tend to take all my words out of context. Please don’t. Unlike you, I am not trying to convey a tone or sarcasm.

A year can be a big difference. Not only in experience but also in the opportunity available to them. Anyway the year thing was just a point. The idea is that older links to more responsibility. This wasn’t a argument, it was a point based on societal standards. Many people would say since he’s older he should’ve known better.

Don’t fall for me was a big thing for HS! JW basically said that they could never be something real and special and failed to correct that when the met up again. I think this is a big thing for plot and what eventually ruins their relationship: growing real feelings but hiding it under the pretense of mind games and sexual taboo. It blurred the line significantly: when is it just a game and when is it serious/real? Which led to HS breaking and wanting something real with Taku. Basically the whole story is the way it is from this one plot device (or at least how I see).

Yeah we have seen the worst of their relationship which leads me to ask when do you think it was ever good? Before they got caught? They were just 2 teenage boys playing around. When they remet as adults? You said it, one was depress, so I wouldn’t call it good times. After that? What evidence do we have that the relationship they had in the beginning (on and off meeting, constantly fighting, playing mind games) isn’t what they had since they met as adults or after JW slump? Their relationship seem to have never been anything more playing sexual games while hiding their feelings.

I wasn’t pushing the blame. It seemed apparent that a lot of HS bad habits come from their relationship as teens and seem to be reinforced with their relationship as adults.

I think it’s more telling that we see the story through HS eyes. This is the guy he loves yet we see him in such a bad light. We only see him angry or manipulating. Also HS has never smiled in the present day with JW.

Their family situation definitely shaped the relationship. How everyone handled it was wrong and left scars. That being said as adults they could’ve easily transformed the situation. I genuinely think that if one of them seriously saidI love you and the other one seriously acknowledged it, reciprocated it, then we would not be having this discussion. The relationship could have easily been changed if they were real and serious to each other but they kept the game going.

Well you seem to be justifying it to me because it didn’t seem you were acknowledging the bad. I don’t know you or your history in this comment section. But within this discussion, that was the first time you clearly stated your position.

There’s definitely a victim complex going around for HS. However we do see the story through his eyes so we are encouraged to be bias. Also HS seem to always fight the relationship and over explain how bad it is, which can create pity because it’s almost like he’s crying for help. He doesn’t know how to get out of something this deep so he just complains about how deep it is hoping maybe someone will help him.

Taku has little flaws and I think most of it lies in he’s biological psychology, which I won’t get into since you don’t seem to enjoy any reference to psychology. But I just find it interesting that while JW and HS psychology seems to be learned and situational, Taku psychology seems to be innate and biological. But yes they all have flaws and I didn’t bring it up because we were talking about JW.

Can you list these nice gestures that was well received by HS?? Since we see the story through HS every nice gesture he’s done seems to be a part of the game with an undertone connected to it. So I don’t know if he was ever genuine. In fact, I really think he twisted this game with his real emotions. The whole caring and obsession thing just seems like two sides of the same coin. You see one side and I see the other. I think this is where we’re going to have to agree to disagree, because an argument can be made for both and my argument is that I have yet to see JW genuine, if he’s not angry/upset

Like maybe you did it unconsciously. But your messages came off as patronising. But ok I'm not super offended. Maybe I over analysed it. Let's move on from that part.

In strict theory age makes a difference. But first we are talking about such a small difference as year...maybe months. And it's all about actual experience, not theoretical one. Everyone of us (most likely) knows someone much younger who acts more mature that someone even twice their age.

I understand it was a big thing for Haesoo. It was and still is painful memory for him. I never said it wasn't but imo the context of that statement was also important.

Imo we see Joowon mostly in the bad light because from the beggining of the story Haesoo already started to think about ending that barren relationship. So it's easier to break something if you see mostly the bad sights. But that's my opinion. What's more Haesoo imo is not the most reliable narrator. As every human he is subjective. For example he said Joowon didn't contact him or barely do that...and we discovered the one who actually kept in touch and called him, visited him was actually Joowon.

I was talking about Haesoo pushing the blame.

Yes but as you said their family situation left the scars. Big scars. Maybe even some kind of trauma. They always felt even years after divorce as if they were doing something wrong.
Plus Joowon fearing the rejection.

The problem with Haesoo's pov is that it's at times it's not so coherent. Ones he portrays Joowon as the bad one. Once he portrays himself as the bad guy. Once he says their relationship is abnormal and pathetic. Once that they've met when they wanted and it was fun. Of course it was all tied to the place in plot and his actual mindset but let's notice it was rather variable at times.

I don't want to bring in psychology because I'm not specialist. I read some specialistic hings from time to time. Or watch movies, read books from such genre (although a lot of them are not really educational). But mostly I use logic and deduction. I had only one semester psychology at my university. So I'm not a specialist. It's more intuitive and observational.

From Joowon's insight, when we have chapters from his pov it was never initiated that all he did was to only control and manipulate Haesoo. It looks more like desperate man in love, with good intentions at start, who chose fatal, bad methods (and started to get twisted as the time passed, jealous etc) to keep the guy he cared about and wants to protect beside him. He dreamed about having simple life without bigger issues where he and Haesoo would be stars of some cheesy romantic comedy.
It wasn't stated clearly why Joowon didn't progress their relationship. He definitely thought about that (buying the ring). Was it caused by the past taboo, was it caused by cowardliness, fear of rejection?
Imo he thought if for him Haesoo is his number one and he will always love him, it's the same case with Haesoo, which was shortsighted, naive and selfish.
I won't deny that. But he most likely preferred Haesoo beside him even in such unfulfilled relationship than no Haesoo at all (if he would reject him for example).

I don't know which gestures Haesoo appreciated. But there were these innocent, naive gestures from Joowon. Which imo weren't about manipulation at all. But once again. You can't prove it, I can't prove it. Like him holding Haesoo's hand or cuddling instead of sex. Him borrowing Haesoo's car or being worried about Haesoo living alone. Him standing in front of Haesoo when they were caught by Haesoo's mum and taking the slap. Him calling to say how much he missed him, choosing ID photo because Haesoo said it looked good, asking how is he doing, about work. And how he was worried about the negative feedback about exhibition. Imo he didn't do this things to manipulate Haeso or for mehim not contacting Haesoo is also not a show how gracious he is. His pov it looked like it was genuine but who knows maybe he deceived both me and himself.

Once again not saying that there weren't scenes when he didn't act rather manipulative. I was just talking about scenes which imo were genuine.

I’ll have to disagree with HS thinking it’s the start of the end in the earlier chapters. There really wasn’t any context that would suggest the relationship they had for years, would not go on for more years. In fact, HS said he’s not interested in the ending. I really think the start of the end was much later because even his early relationship with Taku was not good. I think the longer they dragged the game, the more HS was tired and upset with it. I’m sure HS wanted to break it but I could see their relationship continuing for years like that if Taku wasn’t in the picture, it already had.

HS is absolutely an unreliable narrator, which is why I thought it was very telling. Usually you would see through rose-colored glasses towards the person they love, but we get the absolute opposite. I think that just goes to show how toxic and negative the characters and relationship was. Oh HS doesn’t contact JW because he scared of getting rejected (he thought JW would laugh, fake ignorance (play their game), and leave him dry). And they seem to know everything about each other so contacting JW would just hurt both of them more.

I don’t think JW had good intentions. Back then they were always fighting and hated each other. I strongly believe he the initiated the kiss to play with HS and it developed into something more. Starting a sexual relationship based on hate and games is not good intentions. You saw a desperate man in love?? I saw a desperate man full of desire. I would like to say I don’t think any of the characters are in love. I just don’t think love (unless self-love) is so selfish, purely subjective. He did use bad and fatal methods but I would argue to control more than protect. Protect HS from what? JW didn’t seem to mind to expose their relationship to whoever (“brother complex”) so it can’t be protecting him from other ppl. JW definitely had fantastical ideas about their relationship, which leads to believe he never saw too much problems with it like HS did and that was always concerning. I think the problem actually lies with being content in an unfulfilling relationship and to me that’s the defining difference with how I feel about HS and JW. JW was ok with drowning in his obsession (I don’t think it was love), while HS knew he was dying and tried to hold on, but when there was a real opportunity to breathe again he grabbed it. I think self-awareness is very important here otherwise you can be falling to death while looking at a pretty sunset. Also they’re adults so this is something they have to realize and act on themselves which could be an insurmountable task but HS did that.

To address your examples:
Cuddling - at the beginning? HS had sex with his ex and JW was upset about it and didn’t want to have sex with him. Also HS doesn’t normally cuddle but JW begged a bit and broke him (showing the influence JW has over HS)
Car/Ring - HS didn’t want either (some wordplay with tactic here) probably thought it was things to tie him to JW
Slap - he wasn’t standing in front of HS, he actually flinched away at first, and the mom slapped him because he said they were just playing around/don’t overreact (ch 29)
I miss you/asking about work/how he’s doing/bad publicity- all of that was in their last phone call so is that what you mean? I think that was a desperate pity call. JW tried to pressure HS out of the exhibit, have a say in HS choices, tried to control him (how I saw it). I was actually pretty proud of HS in that moment because it’s one of the few times he stood up to JW in a calmly and logical manner.
Live alone - it could be worry but JW thought that HS couldn’t live on his own like he could (don’t see him equally)
It’s not that I don’t thing that JW is capable of all the good emotions. I just think all his emotions, good and ugly, is severely twisted in this game they play.

I have a question for you: do you want/support a JxH endgame? How do you imagine it playing out? Because they need years to address all the baggage, trauma, toxicness and I think any ending that shows less than that is unfitting and I don’t see the author going that far... what do you say?

I didn't say Haesoo thought it's the start of the end at the beginning. I was saying Haesoo wanted out from a long time. That although he supposedly loved Joowon he was fed up with their relationship. In chapter 2 he already talked about how their relationship and the situation is pathetic.
Taku was a catalyst who progressed the process but Haesoo most likely wanted to end that relationship for some time.
Haesoo most of the time saw Joowon in bad light. But maybe he wasn't in love with him at this point in the story? Or was really tired of their relationship and wanted out because it was painful to be stacked in the situation which never progress. And Taku appeared as good occasion to follow that need.

I was taking about scenes where Joowon showed affection. I didn't say if Haesoo replied to it positively or not. Joowon asked about Haesoo's work in Ch 2, in Ch 2 it was also said he said in the past that he thought about Haesoo or in chapters when Joowon was making a movie in China he called and said he missed him.
But he literally didn't have to cuddle him? He could have gone home, sleep beside him? But he wanted to be close to the person he loved.

About good intentions...you are taking about the very beginning of the story when they barely knew each other. I'm talking about after Joowon fell for Haesoo. When we see his pov it was shown his intentions (generally) were pure (of course beside the scenes when he acted rather manipulative because he hoped Haesoo will always be by his side... But we all know both of them manipulated each other all the time and both were most likely aware of said manipulations), that he believed he was protecting Haesoo etc. No one said that it was needed or that he chose good way. But we are talking about his way of thinking.
For example he believed he was protecting Haesoo and taking revange for him on his bullies. How he lied to his father that Haesoo didn't have anything to do with the case.
Imo he genuinely wanted to protect him but he chose wrong ways.

I will never agree that every move was planned or manipulated. Imo there were moments Joowon was very genuine and there wasn't some hidden agenda behind them. I also don't think the conversation was one big manipulation and potty call as you see that. He was genuinely worried. Haesoo has never wanted to be recognized by his good looks but by his writing.
He was worried about him and negative feedback (his thoughts also prove that, he thought why Haesoo chose such harmful way for himself even if it was all to get rid of him for example). He didn't beg him to stay, he could have manipulated him way better to make him come back. But he didn't. He just said he will always be there for Haesoo. For you probably it was another manipulation but to me he just wants to stay by Haesoo's life in any form because he loves him. Even if he would be just his "brother"


Also you are making a lot more understanding about Haesoo. " He didn't contact Joowon because he feared rejection, he didn't progress their relationship because of don't fall for me".. but when someone explain in the same way Joowon's behaviour it's completely being dismissed.

Tbh for me the best ending would be all of them going separate way and making appointment with psychotherapist.
I don't believe Joowon and Haesoo are the end game. If they are... It would have to be really rushed because as you said they'd have to put a lot of work to make it through. Few conversations, even if they'd openly talk about their feelings and issues... Imo would not be enough.
I think Taku and Haesoo are the end game. Although their relationship have some problems and I didn't like that Haesoo didn't get the rest and enough time to think about things after "break up" in hotel... But I think they can make it work. Although Joowon's presence weigh on their relationship.

I was referencing to the beginning both times because in the beginning his perspective was extermelly despairing and desolate. I definitely think HS wanted out, however my point still stands that the relationship could’ve continued for years like that, if not for Taku.

I reread ch 2. HS says it was shallow and meaningless conversation so I think asking how’s work was out of formality and not actual care. He also asks that just right after describing how bad of a person he is (asshole, selfish). Where in ch 2 (you can link) does it say in the past he thought about HS or missed him? I positively think the cuddling was a power move. We also saw in ch 2 HS doesn’t enjoy sweetly touches but JW has enough power and influence over HS that he can get HS to do things he doesn’t want to do and things he wouldn’t do with his other lovers. I think that shows a much more telling message to the reader regarding the dynamic of the relationship (more than sex would have conveyed). And that it’s not sweet and cute but controlling and smothering.

Do you know the specific moment JW fell for HS? I don’t think there was one. Again, I just believe the relationship develop into something more as it progressed, which is bound to happen when you sleep (become intimate) with someone for so long, especially your first. The relationship was founded on hate and games so the undertone of everything they do is hate and games (although I would argue the hate is probably more desire at this point, I don’t think they hate each other). To which, my point still stands that any good intentions JW has is twisted in this game that they play (twisted in manipulation, control, etc).

You think he believed he was protecting HS when he noticeably made that situation worse for everyone especially HS? I remember it as the catalyst for HS mom talking HS away. Maybe he’s anger, irritability and temper could be disguised as protection but I think he acted immediately on rage with the bullies and on guilt with his dad. I never saw that situation as protection because he failed so gloriously.

I don’t think any moves were planned. However, I think all the moves intended for manipulation. Once something becomes a habit, you do it uncontrollably like HS’ lying. It just comes out. In a similar way, I think JW manipulation and controlling is just a part of everything he does. He thinks it’s a good/right way to show affection because that was the game, that was what their relationship was built on.

I am not trying to say their relationship was calculated. I’m trying to argue that the relationship was inherently bad, so bad things like manipulation, controlling, lying, cheating, etc was inherently in the relationship. So “genuine” moments had these inherent aspects. Again you can definitely make the argument that it was worry but his execution was demanding, controlling, and inconsiderate. I strongly believe the reason he didn’t want HS in the exhibition was entirely selfish. He could’ve respect HS writing, but it’s not like JW has not recommended other shortcuts to make HS writing more popular (his dad). His tone was begging. Why would he try to manipulate HS more than he already did when he was being so coldly shut down? I think of JW truly wanted to stay in HS life he would have not went into that conversation demanding and exerting power.

I am understanding of HS because of his character development. I did not like HS at all in the beginning. I would drop the series many times because of how much I didn’t like him. However, I do like Taku, so I enjoy that HS is changing for him. Again, JW has just been consistently bad. A lot of people extend grace to him just because he’s attractive (kind of like the Killing Stalking ml... ppl would defend him so much despite him being a murderer). I don’t think he has any redeeming qualities (I think his “sweetness”, charisma is fake). I just have a really bad perspective towards aggressively controlling people. Also his anger reminds me of abuse.

I concur with what you think about the ending for the most part.

I think we should stop this discussion. We are waisting each other times and now I'm rather busy, just started my internship. So it's pointless.
I'm not going to convince you, you are not going to convince me.

For you every, even the smallest gesture of Joowon, even some simple action was always at best inherently manipulative, that it was maybe even unconscious action, but as you said for you he was constantly bad...and I just don't agree with that.
For me it's more complex.

Once again I was taking about his thinking, not the outcome of his actions.

And in chapter 29 in retrospections he stayed by Haesoo's bed because he was worried. But of course it could have been all for the show.
Oh and btw you said that Joowon flinched and didn't stand for Haesoo when Haesoo's mum caught them. But when Haesoo's mum started shaking Haesoo, Joowon was the one who grabbed her hand so she would have stopped and after his excuse for their behaviour he was slapped. He didn't have to do anything but in his way he was trying to protect Haeso (and himself).

And I completely don't agree with that sentence "don’t think he has any redeeming qualities", very small group of people doesn't have ANY redeeming qualities. It's really harmful view tbh.
And author wrote herself in q&a (Ch 70.1) that Joowon is naturally warm and energetic person and that he has a soft spot for family and people he cares for.

All in all I agree to disagree. Although I don't agree with all of your points thank you for taking your time and making such detailed explanations of your point of view. I appreciate that.

I mean I wanted to end this a while ago but yes let’s agree to disagree. I do want to clarify something for future readers: You can find the good in everyone. Sometimes it’s a easy to see, other times it’s really hard to find. No one it born bad. It can be a harmful to think that someone isn’t capable of good or change (which I don’t think of about JW). However, it can be just as harmful to give excuses for bad people. Everyone is different and can change so it’s good to be flexible and open minded with people’s development and not have immediate or permanent views of them.

That said I enjoyed this discussion. Thank you for your time and meticulously answers. I found it interesting how two people could have such radically different interpretations of the same thing. I wish you the best of luck with your internship and I hope you stay healthy and well!