sis really snapped. thank you for educating!
i get that everyone sees a story differently, but this is just... weird. did we read the same manhwa? hahah. glad if people get enjoyment out of it, but, you can't deny its flaws...
i'm not denying it's flaws. i just don't agree with what some people are saying about it, people who are basing their expectations of a goddamn webtoon on what they think is right and wrong and not looking at it through the lens of the characters and the environment they grew up and lived in. since i majored in behavioral sciences which tackles psychology, sociology and anthropology, one thing we all learned is to actually understand people as human beings - not deities or gods or paragons of truths and morality.
i was getting tired of idiot dumbasses sprouting the same nonsense every chapter. they keep on coming here anyway despite everything and complaining when they can simply, idk, stop reading it? i mean, what's the point of reading a webtoon you don't like at all when you so obviously don't even get it? when you miss everything about it? that you leave comments all over the page misleading potential readers just because your reading comprehension is shit. seriously, some people these days lmao ╮(￣▽￣)╭
i am literally the most problematic person i know. i don't give a shit about right or wrong in fiction, all i care about is a good story, good writing, and interesting characters! i stuck w this manhwa cause i liked the beginning and i liked the art, and was giving it the benefit of the doubt in that it could change. and then it didn't. i think the entire plot was handled poorly and all characters were done a huge disservice, dg especially. if you liked it, that's great, everyone likes different things n sees different stuff, but none of this 'misleading readers' bullshit, come on man. some of us were really disappointed w this story cause we wanted it to be good, and we should be able to express that. to me, the 9.7 rating and huge positivity in the comments was misleading, but i ain't cryin over that (just confused)
(aaah i apologise for my tone, reading that message back i sound really angry hahah. i don't mean to, ya girl's got aspergers and i can't even read my own tone most of the time. don't wanna fight, just wanna discuss. it's fine w me to disagree w people on shit)
okay, explain to me how the plot was handled poorly. how the characters were done a huge disservice, especially dg. explain because i just explained why i disgaree so explain to me now why you say the things you do. you wanted it to be good but what is good for you? what did you want? what was your expectation that you didn't get? you're free to express your opinion as i am in expressing mine. if i detailed why i disgaree, then detail to me why your opinion is the way it is. none of the positivity in the comments are misleading because that is exactly how the readers felt. that's how they feel after reading the webtoon. just how you dislike it, these are the people who like it. if you're confused why people like it, then explain why you feel the way you do so we can understand because i just explained why i feel the way i do about it. justify yourself to not mislead the potential readers of your opinion to give it weight. as it is, all you've said is "i don't like this, characters are bad, plot was bad, my expectations were not met" but gives no explanation for it.
we all have different reactions to things based on how we interpret them which is based on our own experiences and set of morals. if your reaction to this webtoon is negative, then explain so people will understand. where are you coming from that you didn't like the webtoon? what's your point of view like? tell us why you think the plot was bad, why the characters are bad, why is it not good for you? why?
no need to apologize. we're having a discussion. it's the content that matters.
best believe ima reread this entire thing and write you an entire essay with SOURCES
as much as i would love to explain in detail what it is i don't like about this manhwa (that is a lie, i would not like to) i feel like it's over and done with. i don't want to think about something that makes me angry, and you won't want to read it. why can't i just say that i think it was all handled poorly? do i have to write an entire essay on exactly why it was bad? i like focusing on negativity just as much as you, which is not at all. i just wanted to express my opinion, and now imma leave, not because i can't back up my claims (cause i can, and i have in the past) but because it feels moot at this point. the manhwa is over, i don't want to sour your positive experience, and i want to move on to things i like. i do have a review of this manhwa tho, brightly colored by my anger in the moment i was reading it, and i personally don't think i make my best case when i'm riled up, but it's something i suppose.
i am gonna say that i think my biggest issue with this story, of which there were some, but the biggest one was jiwon. the story acted as if he was redeemed and likeable, when i felt that all of that fell flat. nothing wrong if you didn't feel that way, but to me, he never got an arc, he never redeemed himself, dg didn't see his flaws and went back to his idol worshipping after a while. to me, it felt like rather than character development, the author just erased what made him "bad" under the guise of self realization. i had become so furious with him up until his redemption that when it came, it didn't do it for me. cause look, a troubled past fucks you up, i know that better than anyone, but you always have the choice to not be a huge dick. just because you have trouble trusting/caring for people, doesn't mean you have a reason to treat people like garbage. now i have no issue with asshole characters, but if you're gonna act like they're likable and "good" now, you better deliver on it. deliver on it, or see the asshole thing through. don't half ass it and call it character development. and especially, god whatever you do, don't make him the fucking main character and abandon the actual main character in his most difficult time. i could've dealt with not liking jiwon if the story didn't all of a sudden bend over backwards to suck his dick and ignore everything dg was feeling. it was a weird narrative choice, and it contributed to the entire manhwa feeling jumpy and indecisive. coupled with our side characters getting, what, 3 whole chapters? and then nothing more, ever again? it feels like the author had an idea in mind at the start, changed their mind a million times, and then decided "nah it's over now" and slapped a lil ring exchange scene out of nowhere and called it a day.
i agree to disagree though. and i think we all should share our opinions, i'm sure as hell not stopping you (and 99.99% of the people here) from raining positivity on it, but at the same time, i'm not as commited to my beliefs as you or atrone is. i'm gonna be real with you chief.... i don't really care anymore. like i said in my review of this manhwa, i've run out of steam! back in the day i would jump on the chance to explain everything bad with this manhwa, but now, i just want to get it out there that i was really disappointed by a manhwa i used to like so much. (besides, since i have aspergers i've always been really bad at picking stories apart and seeing what it is i don't like about them, so i've been working on that and analyzing most things i read to get better at it, and that's why i wanna discuss things. i used to change my mind on things all the time way back when as soon as i heard someone else's perspective so i always try to listen to what others have to say before forming my own opinion)
me: "as much as i would love to explain in detail what it is i don't like about this manhwa (that is a lie, i would not like to)"
also me: *proceeds to write a gigantic 3 paragraph comment*
i wanna add that yes, i did read the manhwa, every single chapter, and i do know that jiwon GOT an arc, and dg DID see his flaws. what i'm trying to say is that all of that fell flat for me, it didn't work, and instead he just magically became a good person. and at this point idk if this is nitpicking, but it still felt like he was acting out of selfishness when he was trying to go after dg again despite knowing how hurt he was. he betrayed dg just like his ex betrayed him, but it didn't get a fraction of the weight and was forgiven after a few chapters. i know what it's like to get fucked up over someone, and even after the forgiveness, it doesn't go away. but by that time, the pov had completely changed from dg to jiwon, so we never got to see how it affected him. i feel like everything i'm saying is loosely connected nonsense, am i making sense? i'm too tired for this hahah
same ive decided not to do it bc i frankly dont care enough and its too much effort for something i dont care about, cheers
hdfjsgfhj i was looking forward to it tho... but you're right, time to focus on other things i guess. i'm getting some real pangs of anxiety when i see notifications on here now hahahah
it only wouldve dragged on anyway. and it would take too long and until then everything probably wouldnt even be relevant anymore. it was funny tho to read the excuses of the other person trying to justify some characters behavior.
yea i mean everyone has different experiences of the same story, guess we were just too critical for our own good
lmao it's fine. it means you care more than you think you did and i appreciate the effort.
okay first of, we're having a discussion, we're not here to change each other's mind. you expressed yours, i expressed mine with details as to why. i'm asking you to explain so that i can understand where you're coming from. also i would LOVE to read why you don't like the webtoon. i would LOVE to know why you think the way you do. that's one aspect of being a behavior scientist that i will always carry with me everywhere, wanting to understand why the other person is saying and acting the things they do. i'm not here to change your mind, and i don't need you to change my mind. my positive experience won't be soured by your opinion. i wanted a discussion and discussions are never "moot". exchanging of ideas is always an enriching experience, no matter how obscure or insignificant the source of it may be.
i disagree with everything about you said about jiwon because to me he felt like a very nuanced character. i've been reading manggas and manhwas since i was a preteen and that's what? 15 years ago? and jiwon has been one of the most human out of all of the characters i've seen, in action and presentation. one thing that hit me about your complaint was that he has a fucked up past but it's his choice to be a dick and that's the thing, isn't it? every person processes trauma differently and we can't expect everyone to come out of their dark hours either a good or a bad man. it's not about choice. humans can't just decide that a traumatic childhood and first love will be their strong foundation of a good character. some people are not equipped to handle pain the way you might expect or want them to be and god have i dealt, processed, tested and profiled so many of them. humans come out of experiences differently and how they process these experiences dictate how they react to the real world outside of their problems. it's not about being good or bad, it's about surviving and coping. for jiwon, his way of coping was to wear a mask, one he has been accustomed to since he was a child. he found acceptance and love in presenting a mask of perfection to everyone. the one time he let his guard down, the one time he willingly gave his mask away was with hweemin who betrayed him. who told him that he never really loved the person behind the mask - the real ahn jiwon. that knowledge that the only person he trusted with his bare imperfect self never really loved him at all really broke him inside. that trauma made him guard his mask with the hatred he felt for hweemin.
which brings me to your issue - presentation. i thought the way the transition was handled was actually nicely done. i always thought the "main" charatcer was actually jiwon and the title of the webtoon alludes to how he is a bj, someone who broadcasts to the public. so this is jiwon's life through the eyes of someone who admires him from afar, who got the meet both alex and jiwon and how in his eyes, these two became one. i thought that was how it was presented. also, his change in attitude always made sense to me because from the beginning, he was always hot and cold towards dg. he was never just a straight up asshole to him. it was always when he felt like his mask was going to eb physically and figuratively taken off that he felt agitated - fear that dg would out he was alex, fear of dg going to the number 2 bj instead of the number 1, fear of his audience finding out about him and dg, fear of the student council finding out he was gay - it was always about his fear of being unmasked. but with dg, he was already unmasked. there was no reason for him to be perfect but still he was afraid of one more thing, to fall in love again. that's why the time they had together, jiwon was hot or cold with dg because he is not truly an asshole, but just someone who has something to hide in fear. which means when he overcame that fear, he was willing to be just himself with dg, someone who has absolutely nothing to hide anymore. the catalyst will always be that, the unmasking in relation to hweemin. what really broke him was dg bringing up hweemin and realizing he has been hurting dg the same way hweemin hurt him even though he tried so hard not to do so. and what really broke his mask was seeing dg seemingly and willingly move on from him, something he couldn't do with hweemin. he couldn't handle that with how much he hated hweemin and how much he let his anger for hweemin control so much of his life. when he saw and realized that, he was finally free of his mask to admit to himself his feelings and actually just be himself with dg. that's why i thought the transition was done superbly. because it was done with logic and reason. and his change towards dg felt natural after that because it made sense within the context of his personality since he was child all through out growing up. that's also why dg's adoration for him didn't feel like hero worship to me. because dg's admiration of just alex turned to his admiration of also jiwon. dg always talked about alex and jiwon as two different people. like the jiwon he is dating isn't the alex he idolized and is a fan of. the two of them became each other's strengths and jiwon's presence in dg's life gave him courage to be honest to the people he cares about. like i said, character development isn't some grand change. in fiction and especially in real life, character growth is about their own journey and how they grow our of their own fears. in this webtoon, they grew out of their fears through each other and together. that's why the whole plot and presentation of the story made sense to me.
of course, i disagree with your opinion and i'm not here to change your mind. if that's the way you see it, i can't really force you to change. your interpretation is based on your own experiences and your own values and morals and if this is how you saw it, then it just simply means this is how your eyes saw the world prior and i can't and never will have those same eyes.
as for explaining what you didn't like about it, i really appreciate the time you too out to do so. i actually think you were able to explain your side properly.
don't worry, what you said made sense. this is a good explanation of what you dislike about it and is the reason why i asked in the first place. i mean, of course, you can always just say - i don't like it blah blah but since your opinion is different from mine, my first initial reaction is to ask why and this is a good explanation of why.
like i said above, i didn't think jiwon magically just changed. because he was never a bad person in the first place. his actions are just a product of situations and his own fear of being unmasked physically and figuratively. he was always jiwon and alex, he was both perfect and flawed. he was never just one side or one dimensional and the way he and dg interacted since chapter 1 showed that. he always had a soft spot for dg and he always gave in to him when dg asked him something even when he didn't want to. but his own issues kept him going back and forth. it was not magic and it didn't feel to me like it came out of nowhere. he just shed the part of him that hweemin jaded and hurt, which made him go back to how he would be when he was in love.
as for him going after dg. he didn't though? when dg walked out from him after their "last sex", he saw how dg was able to walk away seemingly unaffected and detached unlike him, who is still chained by his hatred for hweemin, letting that anger control him after all these years. that made jiwon, finally accept and admit his feelings for dg to himself. since then, he followed dg but did not interfere with his life. he watched him from afar and that was enough for him. seeing dg so happy though, seeing him smiling with jaejin made jiwon give up. he actually gave up and snapped out of whatever subconscious hope he had been harboring. he walked away and admitted he only hurt dg and seeing dg smile like he did with jaejin was something the will never see. so he actually didn't go after dg. the only time he interfered was when dg got sick and he went and gave him medicine. after that he left again. and only when dg asked him why he was doing this, being nice to him and everything, that was only when he told dg his feelings.
also he didn't betray dg, he was always staying true to their agreement - sex partners with no strings attached. no feelings or it ends because he didn't want complications. that's the exact reason he never manipulated dg. because he didn't use dg's feelings to his own advantage. it was dg who was lying about his feelings so he can continue having sex with jiwon, thinking he would eventually make jiwon fall in love with him. there was never a betrayal on jiwon's part the way hweemin lied and used him. that's why when they came clean of their feelings and dg said they cleared up the misunderstandings between them, they were both unmasked of their lies and the forgiveness came. they were both willing to talk about their mistakes and came to an agreement of their mutual feelings for each other.
i believe you when you said you read the webtoon but i think you may have forgotten most of it or misunderstood some of it.
so you're not going to write me that essay with sources? shame. i'd have loved to read it lmao. since you wrote that comment and now apparently don't care enough to prove it, maybe this means you'd actually stop. since you don't care enough anymore.
I'm posting this as a new comment for more visibility but this is a direct reply to @Atrone's comment. @Atrone said
1) zero character development for DG - WRONG. dg is naturally an introvert. he said this in the flashback. he's not just the type to go out and make friends by himself. so when he was approached by the group of boys in highschool to be a part of their friend group, he was happy and felt included. which is why it was all the more hurtful and traumatic for him when it was them, the people he trusted and felt safe with, who betrayed him by outing him. they made him an outcast and he carried that trauma for the rest of his life. even in the army, jaejin was the one who approached him and befriended him and in college, it was chanwoo who approached him and stuck with him as a friend. when he got together with jiwon, dg became happy and found someone he can rely on. the truth is, he didn't have to come out to jaejin, but he wanted to be honest and mustered up the courage to do so despite being so afraid of losing another friend he trusts. the character development in dg is him being confident enough to face losing someone important because he wants to be honest to that person about who he really is. that's all there is to him. that's what's been holding him back - honesty and courage to the people who matters to him. he doesn't have to be suddenly outgoing or assertive or brazen because that's not who he is. he just needed to develop out of his own trauma as a character. that is what character development is - not some extravagant change that will happen to a character to show he "developed". dg is still himself, but he's grown out of his fears.
2) cliche ending - ???? what do you want for the ending, exactly? both characters found what they were looking for in each other and along the way, they grew together because of each other. cliche happy ending or not, these endings don't need to be surprising or have a "twist" for them to be good. so many stories have been told a thousand and million times already. the story simply needs to be told in a way that will do the characters and their struggles justice while still giving us an ending that makes sense within those parameters. no twist, no surprise - but something satisfying because the characters deserve it.
3) abusive relationship and emotional manipulation - WRONG. again, i don't get this misconception that some of the readers seem to have about this webtoon. from the get go, jiwon was clear with dg that they will merely be sex partners. he made it clear that that is all they will ever be. jiwon was clear. he doesn't want attachment and feelings mixing with sex because then it gets messy. and the minute it does, he will end things because he wants to avoid that because he's already been terribly hurt before for loving someone that he doesn't want that again. but dg lied to him from the beginning. he was always hopeful that jiwon would develop feelings for him and continuously acted so he won't lose jiwon. when jiwon found out about dg's feelings for him, he got angry especially when dg brought up hweemin who he has been trying so hard to forget. he cut dg clean after that because that's how it's gonna be from the start. they were in a relationship were both wants different things from each other. jiwon who only wanted sex and dg who continuously lied to jiwon and kept coming back to him for the sex, wanting jiwon to develop feelings for him. dg was well aware of what he was doing, and he knew what he was lying for. the more i look at this, the more it seems like the people who thinks it's an abusive relationship are the ones who just wanted jiwon to develop feelings for dg despite him being clear it was just a sex partnership. why? is it because in movies, tv shows, webtoons and manggas, the main character should always get the love interest. so despite the main character lying and deceiving the love interest to get what he wants, he's forgiven and sympathized with because why wouldn't the love insterest just love him already???? can't the love interest see how sweet and kind he is? how much he loves the love interest so sincerely? but that isn't always the case, no? jiwon was clear it was a sex partnership and dg knew and accepted that. jiwon's only problem was that along the way, he very clearly has been developing feelings for dg hence all the jealousy and possessiveness. and as a result, he kept pushing dg away. he wasn't manipulating dg, he was staying true to their deal and also protecting himself from getting hurt. not knowing that in doing so, he was also hurting dg the same way hweemin hurt him which snapped him out of his own feelings and started acknowledging how he really felt for dg. dg was right, they only had sex when jiwon called him, they did what jiwon wanted but that's because dg let him. because dg was hoping jiwon would eventually like him when in truth, when dg wanted something, jiwon also listened and give in to him. if dg was honest with jiwon and told him what he wants all the time, if he set aside his feelings, then he wouldn't be saying those things to jiwon. when jiwon suspected that this was the case, he even asked dg if he had feelings for him because he doesn't want that. he didn't like feelings. if jiwon was truly abusing dg, he was truly manipulating dg's emotions, he would use dg's feelings for him when he found out, but instead he wanted to end it because that was their agreement.
4) homophobia arc for no reason - WRONG. homophobia has always been an underlying theme throughout the whole webtoon. this story isn't set in a fiction reality where everyone and their mother is gay. this is set in modern world south korea where being lgbt is still seen as something shameful, something to hide that only exists in spaces that people wouldn't look and are willing to look away from and ignore. that's the reason why dg has been hiding himself for so long, why he doesn't approach people on his own. that's also why kanghun using jiwon's sexuality as blackmail to bring him down was significant because it's something to be ashamed of, something that can destroy his perfect image that he has been working so hard on to keep up since he was little. it's also another part of jiwon that is a disgrace to his parents, something that makes him so different from the son they wanted him to be. that's why when the student council found out and accepted him and dg, he felt so relieved and happy. because these are people who look up to him but accepted him. still, they all agreed not to spread it because they know that while they may be understanding, not everyone will be. the student council knew jiwon, they know him as someone more than just his reputation. so they can afford to accept him for more than his sexuality but not everyone does. see, homophobia isn't some random plot point, it's a very central part of the whole story.
5) jiwon becoming a completely different person from one chapter to the other - VERY WRONG!!! at this point, i don't know if you actually read the webtoon or you're just trolling us or your reading comprehension is so bad you understood nothing from the webtoon... since jiwon was a child, all he ever wanted was to be accepted and loved by the people around him. he wasn't perfect. he made mistakes but he still did his best because he wanted his parents to be proud of him. but he was still always being compared to his perfect brother and no matter how hard he tried, he was never good enough. for his parents, not being number 1 meant failure hence jiwon was a failure to them. so he tried his best to fit in, to always be nice to other people so they would love him. just as he wore alex's mask to receive the love he was craving for from strangers, he also wore a mask at school to receive the acceptance he never got from his parents. when dg found out he was also alex, that mask he has been wearing was threatened. he was scared to be found out and have his mask ruined so he tried to push dg away but it was clear from the start that he was already attracted to dg - hence his proposition to be sex partners. through their time as sex partners, jiwon has been hot and cold to dg because while he was trying so hard to push dg away and not develop feelings for him, he isn't entirely heartless either. there were moments you can see that he lets dg gets his way or how weak he is to dg when dg looks sad or is crying, or how he admires dg when dg tries to be assertive. so when dg confesses to him, you could see how shaken he was, how he tried to talk to dg but when dg suddenly mention hweemin, jiwon snapped and hit him. and just like the other two times jiwon has hurt dg during sex, jiwon immediately realized and stopped. but this time, he couldn't just stop and pull out. dg has already walked out. one of the things that really set him out of his axis was how dg was willing to walk away from his feelings, that he appeared to have no lingering feelings left for jiwon. to jiwon who cried and got immensely hurt by hweemin, who resented him for years and held a grudge for hurting him, that felt like a huge wake up call to him. the reason why jiwon was hot and cold to dg was always because of this. he was as afraid of his feelings as he was afraid of dg's feelings. when everything was finally resolved and they finally got together, it wasn't a new jiwon who suddenly turned sweet to dg, who had a personality transplant like some people are accusing him of, that was simply who jiwon is as a person. he is rough and callous. he's not perfect but he cares about those who means to him. he was sweet to dg because that's who he is without all the fear and the baggage that hweemin brought him. there was no personality change. like real people, jiwon's personality isn't one dimensional. that's why dg always says "i love all the parts of you, sunbae" because jiwon has many sides to him and there was finally someone in his life he can fully be honest with and accept him for all of it.
6) side characters existing just for fetishization - WRONG AGAIN, seriously???? myungdae and chanwoo exist for a reason. they don't have any story line because like the author said, there's no conflict with them. they serve to move the plot along like real side characters are. myungdae served as the number 2 in alex's career, someone who can take away his spot, number 1, the spot that only matters according to his parents. myungdae and chanwoo's bdsm relationship is a direct opposite of jiwon's and dg's. bdsm is all about transparency and trust. they were clear with each other since the start and they know exactly what they want from the relationship. while jiwon's and dg's was started through lies - jiwon can't get it up if not with dg, and dg wants a romantic relationship with jiwon.