Also I guess its kinda “what was I expecting” with this since it’s a yaoi and blah blah blah. It seemed really mild despite the theme so I thought it was just going to be kureshima’s teasing getting to oono’s delusions and them confessing and then consensual sex. I really didn’t expect full out rape at all with the tone I got from this manga. It just didnt seem like the usually cartoony and overexaggerated yaoi that would stoop that low
But, Oono says at the end of ch 4 that he wanted Kureshima even before the sex, but he'd been in denial. If you're in love with someone, wouldn't it stand to reason that if that person initiates sex with you that you're probably go to have a positive emotional response and thereby it is consensual? People for some reason have the idea that consent is a sentence, but it's actually an emotion. The sentence is just a means of conveying that emotion. If someone were to take you to court and all they said was "i didn't say yes", they'd be asked "well, did you say no/stop or resist and make it clear they don't have your consent?". If the answer to that question is no then you're free because it's not up to you to read their mind. Sex is very nuanced.
Um, hello again, yes I’m aware sex is nuanced, but it’s not that simple between two people who have never engaged in sexual intercource with each other before. Sex is a relationship, and a relationship is about communication, and consent can be an emotion, but for an emotion to be properly communicated it must be expressed, and no where in that scene was consent expressed by Oono. I’m not going to debate something that can men easily interpreted as rape lol.
At the time he did not give any visual consent. He was confused, and even if he liked kureshima he was in denial, so he had no conscious feelings for him at the time. If he consented at all to begin with, this wouldn’t be a debate.
Not sexual intercourse, but Kureshima had helped him imagine sexual fantasies and got him off at one point. The "communication" you're looking for was when Oono agreed to masturbate for him, the sex was a reward for Kureshima for managing to get Oono horny and sweeping him along. Do you consider all cases of people being talked into sex as rape? If so, that might be the issue. He had moved on from reluctance to being horny, Oono says it himself on ch 3, pg 25 when he says "its starting to feel like that time". I'm not arguing that it can't be interpreted as rape, i'm arguing that it can ALSO be interpreted as NOT rape. It's very closed minded of you to just decide something and refuse to take in the situation or any facts presented. In a manga we can only decide whats happening through dialogue and facial/body expression, you're ignoring parts of that and only looking at ch 3's events stating that it was factually rape.
Hell, you're even ignoring dialogue/internal dialogue in CH 3.
You don't have to give consent vocally or visibly. I'll give an example: if you came onto me and i liked it, didn't say anything, you just kept doung what you were doing. Did you rape me? Even though i consented wordlessly and my lack of resistance hinted at this?
Oh and also (lol sorry for bothering you again with this) if what you counted as consent was whenOono masturbated in front of Kure, he was literally manipulated into doing that, with Kureshima threatening to not be friends with him anymore. That’s a p asshole move if u ask me idk. And he only “agreed” to masturbate, and nothing else because that was the offer he was given. And even then he clearly did not want to have any relations like that outright with kureshima in the pages beforehand, calling him a “pervert, quite harshly and even thinking it was rude to undresss casually in front of him.
He threatened to not talk to him anymore. He was emotionally manipulated, not swept up in sexual desire dude. Wtf
I actually agree with you here, it was a bit of a dick move, but it's a choice Oono made himself. Your wording is right here, he "manipulated" Oono, not "forced" or "threatened" him with any serious consequences. All he did was threaten to leave, Oono decided it was worth it. You're right, he agreed to masturbate, but any time you agree to a sexual act there is the inherent possibility of it progressing, i'd say that's how reality works. Wouldn't you? My point was that he verbally agreed to a sexual act and then was swept along into sex.
Dude I don’t even know you, i would have probably asked you if you were okay and seen if you responded positively to my progress. If you kicked me in the middle of it, I would back off and realize you were probably not enjoying it the way I did. And I wouldn’t have started it by threatening to abandon my previous relationship with you to get you to continue with me. And if you bled in the middle of it I would stop and make sure it’s okay, or just stopped all together.
You know what would have been great. If he hadn’t had been manipulated to begin with and left alone by someone he trusted and didn’t have to choose his friendship over proper consensual sex gn
If this is the case, are one night stands rape? Sknce we've "never had intercourse before"? Sex apps aren't about talking, they're about meeting up and fucking so there're a lot of cases where they LITERALLY just meet up and fuck with no talking.
You're throwing in a bit of context that wasn't stated. We don't know that he bled during, though you should know that's actually normal the 1st time. As far as you asking if i like it, you must be a vocal person in bed, not all are like that. From what i understand, Kureshima DID back off when Oono kicked him, which implies to me that he didn't have bad intentions. Again, i agree that threatening to leave was kinda shitty, but all he did was talk Oono into agreeing, that happens all the time. Again, do you consider people being talked into sex as rape? HE consented to a sexual act with Kureshima and ANY time you consent to a sexual act there is inherently the possibility of it progressing.
Yeah, you're right here.
But their body language usually displays consent, and if the people did not give verbal consent it does count as rape. This was nothing like a one night stand. No consent was fairly given
Sorry to get into such an intense debate. Im just kinda dumbfounded that someone would defend a scene thats almost parallel to the commonly found rape scenes in Harada Sensei's works. He started talking dirty to Oono to tease him and reveal his true intentions, he was possibly trying to seduct Oono but it didnt work and decided to resort to force with manipulating language all the way through. I already used the same arguments against this 100000 times I still dont know why you are trying to defend this as consensual sex. Oono being "swept up" into sex doesnt seem any more consensual than being manipulated and forced into it. He was confused, and clearly unhappy and probably afraid of kure the following chapter despite the later scenes where he realized his subconscious feelings for kure, making it clear the author was making a hasty defense to defend fetishized rape. Its just a dumb yaoi, and because its a dumb yaoi i get frustrated that people in the fujoshi community still cant recognize obvious rape fetishization, as it is scattered all over BL story lines including this one. I really dont care who reads it at this point i just hope that they can at least be aware of this issue when it occurs.
And about the whole preparation thing. If kure prepared Oono and he was still bleeding, and crying about the pain, why wouldn't he stop? He intended to rape Oono.
Idk this really shows how subjective tone is in a story. I have reread this at least four times, reading through carefully at least twice. And no matter how I read it the tone did not feel like it was happy consensual sex between two people with mutual feelings for each other. The diction and word choice of kure wanting to "ravish" Oono. Even just the positions they were in with Kure looking down on Oono for most of the chapters especially in this one. The dynamic seemed very one sided, making Kure seem dominating, having almost a power fetish over Oono. He teased Oono by touching him and hanging the threat of exposing him as a pervert over Oono, manipulated him into rape and got his way with him through emotional and physical force. The tone of the rape scene was scary, and intensely revealing of Kures intentions over Oono, and whether or not Oono comes to like him after doesnt excuse Kure of his actions, which were always, and always intended to be dominating and bully like, whether in a real serious bad way, or fetishized "popular seme/ wimpy uke" way
Anyways you seem like an interesting person, and in no way am i holding this against you, nor do i think this is directed at me like you said in one of your previous comments.
I just need you to understand no verbal, or at the very least, conscious emotional, or real physical consent was ever given in their entire relationship, that didnt have to do with manipulation and Kures actions are not defendable or debatable no matter how much I or others loved the concept of the storyline.
Hopefully this will be my last comment. Hope you can continue enjoying BL, but dont continue defending obvious rape plz.
It's because of the end of ch 4, he literally tells us, and i quote, "There's no way for us to go back to how we used to be and i cannot forgive him. And yet, what i truly want to happen-- This odd feeling (love.), prickling me. It's... NOT TRUE! Just now, what was i thinking?! How unfair. I should be the only one(he should be the only one to be touched by Kureshima is what he's saying as he looks at Kureshima touching that girl and gets jealous. He thinks "its unfair" that Kureshima had sex with him, but is touching others). I didn't realize. It can't be true. I pretended not to know (he is literally saying here that he was in denial about being in love with Kureshima.). I intended to blame him, but deep down, i've aLways had delusions about him (literally admits here that he intended to blame the sex on Kureshima). I didn't want to just watch, i've always yearned to be touched by again (literally says here that he's always wanted Kureshima to touch him). I was afraid that he'll see through me. Reality feels much better than delusions (literally says here that the sex felt better than he had even imagined in his delusions, despite the pain)". The reason i can't agree with any of you that it was rape is because you all base your argument on what the sex scene LOOKS like. You all project what you THINK Oono was feeling at the time onto him, but he actually talks about what he was feeling himself here. You guys are speculating on how he felt, but he confirms how he felt himself. It seemed pretty obvious to me after reading this that Oono actually WANTED the sex himself, but he is scared because he doesn't know how Kureshima feels about him so he kicked him off and intended to blame the sex on him. He says so himself. The only argument anyone has brought up in favor that it is rape is that "it LOOKS like rape", which isn't relevant as that's just people projecting onto Oono as he says himself how he was feeling. And "Oono says his ass is bleeding and sore and that Kureshima didn't stop not matter how much it hurt", which i replied to by saying that he says that when Sasaki asks if he's alright and he says yes. He isn't talking about how he felt during the sex. The full quote is: -Sasaki asks if he's alright and he tells her he's fine- "who am i fooling? My ass is sore and bleeding. No matter how much it hurt, he didn't stop". He's just acknowledging in his head that he's lying to Sasaki, he's actually in pain. Saying "my ass is sore and bleeding" sounds bad, but it's actually how it's probably going to be after first time anal. You should look this up as well if you don't believe me. Your 1st time is your roughest, the odds are actually stacked in favor of the possibility that you'll bleed and continue to bleed after. You'll for sure be sore and you'll probably have bloody shits for a bit. He says Kureshima "didn't stop no matter how much it hurt", i think this just irritates him. We saw ourselves that Oono wasn't conveying how he was feeling, why would Kureshima stop unless he said it hurts? He's just acknowledging what happened here, he was hurting, but Kureshima continued even though it did. At the end of ch 4 he admitted he planned on blaming Kureshima for the sex, so this part to me is just him being in denial as he says he was and blaming Kureshima for something he couldn't help irrationally.
go try that on a police officer. see if they agree.
They would, no doubt about it. Get out of your feelings and face reality, that happens all the time and it's not rape. Getting talked into sex is something a lot of different people in different age ranges/sexes/etc face everyday. You're actually minimalizing rape by throwing this in it's category because these people had a choice. Go up to a rape victim and ask them if they'd rather be put in a room with a rapist or a pushy asshole, bet all of them say the pushy asshole because they can choose to leave.
I really loved the concept of this manga, I loved the dynamic and everything, but then the rape thing happened and now I’m kinda disappointed. Like I was hoping it was just a delusion, but it wasn’t, and now they are trying to justify it, and kureshima is probably going to get what he wants without facing any real consequences for how he tried to “show his feelings” to oono.
Whether Oono comes to like him after despite what he did (somehow) it was rape nevertheless because Oono kicked him and clearly did not demonstrate any sign of consent when kureshima did it. Being “shocked” isn’t an excuse. Kureshima would have stopped if he was trying to do anything but rape oono.