FYI

yeah, I'll admit to being stubborn.

it's just that i'm more interested in how this has mentally affected Sungho than whether he could legally win in court. To me it's just a given that Dohyun knew Sungho didn't want sex, but Dohyun never physically forced anything. That's pretty much it.

I'll (try to) leave it alone now too

I don't want to take this to the extreme because I do agree with what you said earlier. There are times when consent is implied and nstural sex tends to happen that way.

Maybe if this were an anime or an actual live action drama it'd be more evident but when I watch the drawings, you can clearly see reluctance in Sungho's body language. This relationship honestly doesn't look mutual to me. There are parts where Sungho shows he doesn't want to or like doing what he does with Dohyun and he vocalizes and thst doubt creates a grey area where Dohyun could be put in the wrong.

I kinda get Sungho, you know. Its like you agreed to have sex with someone but regretted it afterward 'cause you didn't like it. So you felt used but you likes the other person so much and you don't want to break off. That's probably how Sungho felt. I believe that Sungho didn't consider it rape either. He just felt used and he thought Dohyun was selfish. I think that feeling happens to a lot of ppl in real life actually, especially women since more than a few of them don't get any enjoyment out of sex. And the bedroom thing is messy and dirty if you don't like it. It's easy to feel terrible afterward

Hmm. I see what you mean. I don't think Sungho saw it as rape either and though what he is doing to Dohyun is rape, he did say he wish he didn't have to get what he wanted by tying up Dohyun in the beginning of the story.

In the real world, there aren't many laws that clearly defines and distinguishes rape from just using someone and taking advantage of them. For me what makes Sungho/Dohyun's high school situation rape and not just a simple misunderstanding or Dohyun just being a regular asshole is the fact that Sungho did express his discomfort. While Dohyun didn't explicitly tell Sungho it's sex or nothing, with his words and actions, Dohyun did put Sungho in that position to feel and think that that was the only way they could be with one another. On top of that he was aware that Sungho had no other friends and knew how Sungho felt about him. Dohyun accepted sexual acts from Sungho knowing of Sungho's feelings and expectations, knowing that Sungho didn't enjoy doing any of the things he was asking Sungho to do, knowing that Sungho was vunerable, knowing that he [Dohyun] never intended to reciprocate in anyway (whether with friendship or sex). Dohyun took advantage of Sungho and callously wrecked his psyche.

I know in the real world this is a really grey area and cases like these can go anyway but I don't feel like it's wrong to view what is happening as rape.

If a sex worker doesn't like having sex but agrees to have sex with a customer in exchange for money because the customer is going to walk away otherwise, do you call that rape?

They have a choice and they chose to do it, just like Sungho.

There's a fault in your analogy. A sex worker is not taken advantage of by having sex with a customer. A sex worker provides a service for payment because it's their profession, they are not manipulated into making that decision.

If a legal sex worker is legal working of her/her own volition then no, it isn't rape because she's getting paid to do it and both parties have a mutual understanding. She/he understands that they will have to sleep people they might not be attracted to but they will get paid no the John understands that they aren't being done a favour, they are receiving a service, so they have to pay for it. If they don't pay, its stealing.

It's kind of like if a vegan was working at McDonalds. They might not want to serve meat and think it's bad but it's not illegal to eat meat and they are getting paid to serve it so they do it anyways. If someone were to eat a burger without paying for it, that would be stealing.

Imagine if there was an unspoken contract between a child and a parent that stated if the child cleaned his room, he would be taken out for ice cream. Imagine if one day the room was dirty and the mom said, "I guess you don't like ice cream anymore." The mom isn't explicitly saying, "If you don't clean your room you won't get any ice cream." but that is what she's implying. She's implying that the privilege of getting ice cream would be lost if child can't fulfill his end of the bargain.

Whether or not it's good practice to bribe a child into doing something they should be doing anyways is debatable but it would be a shitty thing if the parents promised ice cream every time they wanted their child to clean their room or anything else and then didn't deliver the ice cream when the kid did hold up their end of the bargain.

Clarifying the metaphor, Dohyun is the parent, Sungho is the child, cleaning is sex and ice cream is Dohyun's companionship. This metaphor is kind of sloppy and loaded since bribing one's children into doing chores isn't illegal but bribing people into having sex could be. Hopefully you get my point. Dohyun dangled a carrot in from of Sungho.

The two cases aren't the same. In your example, you had the mother saying, "I guess you don't like ice cream anymore." The verbal statement is a kind of emotional manipulation. Dohyun didn't say, "Oh, I guess you don't want to be my friend anymore." He was just walking away. So for the two examples to be similar, that would be the mother seeing the room dirty and deciding to leave the room and not buying ice cream for the kid anymore. I don't know how you can't tell the difference.

It's the same. Dohyun did not manipulate Sungho into making that decision either. Sungho had choices and he knew he had choices. He just didn't want to take the other one. Not wanting to do something but agreeing to do it by your own free will is not the same as the other person forcing you into doing it. Doyun did not verbally or physically forced him in any way.

In chapter seven, Sungho gave Dohyun a bj and then said it was 'gross' afterward. So he didn't like it but he did it anyway. Do you consider that Dohyun raping him? Obviously not. I'm amazed by all the SJWs who scream rape at every chance.

I can tell the difference between legal and illegal and now you're just arguing semantics.

No, Dohyun doesn't have to say the exact words. I wasn't giving a parallel, it was a metaphor and like I said it was somewhat loaded.

What you seem to keep missing the part where I acknowledge that Dohyun never explicitly withdrew his "friendship".

Let's say you're having an argument with your friend and you bring up a point and clearly your friend doesn't have a response to give you that would win the argument. Regardless of whether your friend changes the topic, starts calling you names, flat out ignores you or physically walks off on you, the message sent is all the same and becomes clear, your friend doesn't have another point to argue. The argument is over.

Regardless of whether Dohyun were to have flat out told Sungho "I only want sex from you so if we can't fuck I don't want to talk to you." or ignored him or feigned boredom the same message gets sent. Dohyun was only interested in Sungho for sex and didn't care anything about Sungho's wants or feelings.

Removing rape from the table for a moment. Can you at least see how this situation is mentally abusive?

"Sungho gave Dohyun a bj and then said it was 'gross' afterward. So he didn't like it but he did it anyway"

actually, i do consider that raping him, because the situation wasn't that simple. Dohyun clearly understood that Sungho didn't want sex. But Dohyun also new that he could manipulate Sungho into it anyway, as long as Dohyun showed it was what HE wanted. He know that Sungho was desperate to have a friend and was willing to anything Dohyun asked in order to "stay friends". Songhu even tried to back out by saying "this isn't what friends do."

Dohyun never planned to stay friends with Sungho. He was just leading Sungho on in order to get what he wanted. If that isn't manipulation, then what is?

You made a lot of assumptions and wrong conclusions. There's no where in the manhwa that said Dohyun was Sungho's only friend, or that Dohyun was aware of how much Sungho wanted to be his friend. It read to me like Sungho was infatuated with Dohyun and wanted him to be around at all cost. Dohyun never wanted to be friends and he made it clear what the relationship was. Sungho knew it too. Dohyun wasn't leading Sungho on, lying or misguiding Sungho into thinking the relationship was something deeper or more meaningful like you said. I saw no manipulation in what he did.

If you know someone and they tell you, "This is a sex-based relationship. If you don't want it, we got nothing to do with each other," that is not manipulation. That's the condition of the relationship.

Also, something is wrong with you because how can you consider that Dohyun raped Sungho in chapter 7????? Like what????????????? Dohyun was handcuffed and thrown down. He didn't want to be the recipient of the bj, didn't ask Sungho to do what he did.

I agree that it's mentally abusive.
In legal terms, it's another matter... It's tricky. Anyway, what follows are my own personal ramblings, so don't read unless you're interested.
From what I understand, I think in order to prove the rape, you would first have tobe able to prove there was coercion...Bbut you can't prove coercion unless you prove the culprit threatened the victim with taking away something they had a right to have or keep (for example: a right to their life, to their physical sustenance and wellbeing, to an employment and an education...). Children have additional rights like for example the right to be cared for and to be provided with food, shelter, education, etc., etc, by their legal caregivers... So do incapacitated, disabled, or similarly vulnerable people who need others to care for them in order to survive.... But there's no such right as the right to keep a lover, or a friendship, or a romantic relationship. ...The only way it would work is if they proved the culprit systematically manipulated the victim into believing they wouldn't survive without them, or without their love, or whatever... But that's pretty hard to prove.

While it could be wrong to assume Dohyun was Sungho's only friend in chapter 30 you will see a bit of how the classroom work. While no one can be certain until the mangaka confirm's it, it's still a safe bet to assume Sungho was a loner.

Also, Dohyun started the "relationship" and it could possibly even be skewed that he was the one who was infatuated first but I don't think I can say anything else without giving out spoilers.

If Dohyun had straight up said he only wants to fuck and nothing else from the beginning this would have been a different conversation but that didn't happen. By the time Sungho said he didn't want to blow Dohyun they had already been messing around and even after Sungho expressed his discomfort, they continued to mess around so while one could give Dohyun the benefit of the doubt in the beginning, once Sungho expressed his discomfort, it ventured into the realm of non-consensual.

oh, is that the bj you're talking about?

anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that Dohyun isn't innocent here. if he really wanted to "make it clear" he should have just broken it off with Sungho. It seems to me that he was so good at manipulation that he had Sungho eating out of the palm of his hand and begging to spend time with him in sport warehouse. It was like a code-phrase. Dohyun completely ignored him until Sungho mentioned the warehouse.

If Dohyun really cared about Sungho he would have STOPPED Sungho from doing "sexual favors" for someone who didn't care about him, but instead Dohyun was the instigator. Dohyun acted like he came there only to study english, but then he immediately started making sexual advances on Sungho

"once Sungho expressed his discomfort, it ventured into the realm of non-consensual."
Hm, probably... Really, with all the crap I see happening around underage sex, in real life alone, I'm starting to believe teens are just unqualified to have sex...
(￣∇￣")
Anyway, have you guys seen that popular video about tea consent?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGoWLWS4-kU
Even if you have, here's a parody that really got me thinking...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX6va9glqgA

I do agree that Sungho didn't have a right to friendship and I can see why people who view things like you do would see manipulation but not rape. I can see how someone could read this and see nothing else but emotional abuse going on.

However I'm not arguing about rights but needs.

One does not have the right to be accepted but the need to be accept is one of our most basic needs. If a parent were to feed, clothe and shelter their child but never praise or encourage them or acknowledge them outside of what is legally required of them, they would still be neglectful parents. That child would grow up wanting their approval, wanting a bond. Constantly being denied would harm them psychologically and affect how they see the world and who they are as a person.

Likewise, Sungho isn't entitled to Dohyun's friendship and Dohyun doesn't have an obligation to give it but we do live in a world were sex isn't just sex for most people. Most people don't just hook up and move on. There is a whole bunch of unspoken contracts that happen when people have sex and one of them is reciprocation. It's not unnatural to expect some level of emotional intimacy after sex. "Just sex" is actually what is abnormal which is why being explicit is important.

Both Dohyun and Sungho were responsible to defining the relationship but neither did. Like I said in my other post, the grey area comes from what happens after Sungho says no.

I agree with you. Teens should definitely not be having sex. There is just so much to think of besides STDs and pregnancies.

In this day and age there is so much talk about rape and where consent begins and ends, it's already hard for an adult, I wouldn't advise teens to do it. Especially since more of them are being punished like adults.

It might dim the mood but the best thing is to always have a definite use and stop any time there's a hint of doubt.

I'll have to watch those vids in the morning. I can't believe it's already 2:30am.