whoa

To me his worry is like "oh shit, I hope I don't have to take him to the hospital."

I'm hoping its something different. but, if I was in the same line of thought, my eyes would be towards the ceiling or to the side and I'd sigh heavily.

I'm thinking back to the point where bum was initiating sex with Sangwoo, after he tried poisoning him. during that arc, Sangwoo's eyes were wide just like in this recent chapter.

You're describing exasperation, and granted Sanwoo is a self-serving individual that does not bar him from being surprised. Which is what we are seeing here.

But, let's think back to Bum. He is not really suicidal. He if he was he would've killed himself when Sangwoo showed and offered him the Hook the first time he opened the door and tried to escape. He also tried to ask for help during the school festival, where Sangwoo sang with that jieun girl. Only to become ignored, and scared of being alone.

He also is most likely suffering from Stockholm syndrome. when that demoted cop showed up, he didn't make noise to alert him to his presence...but rather bum hid in the kitchen cabinets. Bum also didn't run away when they went clothes shopping, or during the time he went to the restroom by himself, the day he met Sangwoo's "friends". Nor did he run during the trip they went on to bury Jieun's corpse or the grocery shopping trip.

A lot of people would run, scream, or do something to anger Sangwoo and get killed. Like that daughter of the Pharmacy tycoon, who kept screaming only to be killed.

Yet, Sangwoo shows surprise during the first sex scene with Bum, and Surprise that he didn't run. It should be noted that Bum negotiated to live during Sangwoo's tirade, and as of late called himself disgusting and harmed himself rather than negotiate with Sangwoo. This could've surprised him. But we don't know.

I don't mean to sound rude, But Sangwoo does not appear exasperated...If he did he would've long killed Bum like he did the others, who irritated him or served no use.

Oh, I don't believe that Sangwoo will ever let go of Bum, so I wasn't thinking of exasperation. The truth is that, no matter how powerful Sangwoo thinks he is, it would do him no good if he had to take Bum to the hospital. He has injured Bum in the past, and he's also taken care of him, but I don't know how well prepared he would be to treat something like that - depending on how deep the cut is and how it was actually performed.

A hospital (at least here) usually means questions, and counseling is offered if it's believed that it was no accident and the self-harm was intentional. Again, *here*, it would raise a bit of concern. Which is something they really can't afford, especially after the police were looking for the girl.

Don't misunderstand me: I'd love to get a Sangwoo that shows a bit of sympathy. I'm not sure if he treated Bum like that because he was mad at the idea of someone else having sex with Bum before him or what, but yeah, I'm pretty sure he didn't see that coming. Maybe this will shock him and he will react differently, I don't know. I'm always half fascinated, half disgusted by him, so I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen.

(Btw, I've *just* read that your original post was longer. Mangago only showed me till "a little worry?" which is why I said that.)

Oh, that's okay sometimes when I'm on the mobile app people's messages get truncated on my end. So, I totally get that. : )

But, Yeah I kinda agree that Sangwoo would never Intentionally lose Bum. I can see it perhaps happening by an accident, or in this case if Bum later misunderstands something and get himself killed.

I like how you brought up the Hospital bringing up questions. You have a good point in that regard and I do remember Sangwoo taking care of Bum's leg after he broke it. BUT, Bum-as you are aware-never really healed from that incident. his gait is weak and a bit weird. Hopefully you are right in saying that the staff would become concerned with that and the way he cut himself.

Again, I like the way you bring up the Hospital. You ave an interesting point there. I never really thought about the hospital, because I was more so thinking, "ohh how did he cut himself. Is it the way he could die or just harm (I believe depending on where he cuts and if he cuts vertically or horizontally it can create issues on stitching. But, I can't recall).

But, yeah maybe Sangwoo will recognize that he's out of his league with the injury and take Bum to the Hospital. After all, Bum did go out with him to the festival, Karaoke, and the burial trip.

But, I'm concerned with how much attention the staff will pay. Remember Bum all his life was scrutinized for his looks and gloomy disposition. We had the Sweet Grandmother, and the cop who was a bit concerned when the uncle started beating him. Moreover, Bum was enduring this abuse and yet no one said anything. Granted, most eastern cultures will keep such things within the family. It depends on how much staff cares to voice an issue and even then it involves consulting the parent, and that could make it worse for the child.

Likewise, Korea and Japan has a rather lack-luster bullying and (i'm not sure about japan in the latter regard), rape protection policy. I remember seeing a special on the first where it is most teachers don't really report bullying and force students to resolve the issue. With cases being reported by parents often worsening the situation to the point the issue get's settled with Money and the student occasionally switching schools.

In another involving rape, Statistically women report it much often than men. And in Korea there's this sort of apathy when people investigate the victim. the system doesn't seem to be as balanced as western countries.

I want to relate this to Bums appearance and history too. Barring the police looking into their past-because we only see one cop willing to do that, and he's demoted & alienated in the department-people judge Bum for his appearance. When he called for help at the school no one helped. When he had the mini-panic attack at the department store, no one acknowledged his hunched figure and rapid breathing. Heck when he ran out into the street in the recent chapter, bleeding and holding a knife no one paid any mind or reported to the police.

As others have said Bum is "gloomy and disgusting." I do want to give you your point that the hospital will tend to the wounds and possibly have questions. But, Sangwoo being the suave, and "polite" young man that he "is" will most likely disarm them.I mean, again, when Bum went to the Karaoke no one asked what happened or are you alright, or even joked about him doing something stupid to cause the need for crutches. Rather they seemed disgusted with him.

in the event that Sangwoo, recognizes the need to take him. Bum will most likely not talk. But, I can see the staff like the Police going through the motions of taking care of Bum. And only because from what I've seen Korea's system is cracked in the regard to class and aesthetics, in regards to personal justice.

And again, I'm sorry for the long blurb. I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative. I actually do enjoy talking to you. and You made me think of a new issue the hospital.

I never really thought Sangwoo would take Bum to the hospital. But, the more I think about it the more I think you may be right, in that regard. Bum may actually need care Sanwoo can't provide, and I think he may end up going to the hospital as Sangwoo begins to see bum less and less likely to report anything.

And regarding your next paragraph you gave me a new perspective. Honestly, my mind just went "wtf, what a jerk. that's not consensual?!" And in a sick way I'm hoping you are right and saying, "he's probably jealous that Bum had 'sex' with someone else before him." is it F* up yes, is it wrong OMG extremely. but, at least it would make Sangwoo almost have some semblance of being human.

But, again, Thank you for the two new perspectives (hosptial and reason for Sangwoo's reaction). I didn't think of those things and I should've.

I appreciate the discussion. Truly I do.

Ah, thank you for reminding me about the bullying issue. I only knew about Japan, I think, and in fact I recalled the story of one of the families who lived in our neighborhood: when they sent their only child to school in Japan, he got constantly bullied. The mother went to the school to complain, and they basically told her that he had to stand up for himself. (So when I read Caste Heaven, I wasn't really surprised...) And the rape protection policy, as well as the self-defense one, are definitely victim-blaming.

I lost track of the timeline. Do you know how long it's been since the leg incident? Because I'm not sure if Bum never healed properly or if it just hasn't been that long, though I'm inclined to agree with you. And I think cutting vertically is worse than horizontally. It would be an incredible plot twist if Bum knew this and he did it to "retain" Sangwoo. a, just imagine if his leg was actually fine, but he was using it to manipulate Sangwoo because he feels that being pitiful is the only way to survive? Ah, there's no evidence to this, of course! But it would set a course for Bum holding a little bit of power over Sangwoo. After all, their relationship is a bit... leechy. (I'd go for symbiotic, but that would be more positive. Don't mind me, I'm rambling.)

In any case, yes, you're right: Sangwoo has probably noticed that Bum would rather keep quiet about their "arrangement". Like, he could have done something because he had "chances" to talk to others, but honestly, if there's something Bum has probably learned by now is that nobody has his back. It's sad to realize that no matter what he says or does, people won't acknowledge him. But also, he still has a moral compass and a sense of awareness mingled with self-preservation, so I don't think he'd purposefully put anyone in danger by being "reckless".

And you raised a good point: Sangwoo's suave ways would definitely charm anyone. The only one who's not moved by him is the cop, and it'd be highly unlikely for him to spot them at the hospital or coming out of it.

And thank you for the '' around 'sex' when I referred to Bum's uncle raping him. I forgot to include them, and they should totally be there. But it also brings up the question of what is consensual in Sangwoo's mind, which is, of course, connected to who he is.

Thank *you* for the discussion! I'm glad you can bring real life elements into it and still keep in mind that this is a fictional work. Sometimes people can't tell the difference and it's both fascinating and frustrating.

Wow, can I just say that I love you, you Akino-in a platonic way of course. That response was sure something; I really appreciate the conversation.
But, Yeah Bullying is definitely a problem for a lot of countries. Mine seems to do better-just slightly-in terms of laws and regulations. And with recent advances in technology we are seeing people become more and more vocal about anti-bullying, rape and basic human rights. At least, In my country. I can’t really speak for eastern, and southern European countries nor Asian ones.
But, otherwise, yes there is a lot of issues with victim shaming and it kind of just irks me to even see it from some people, and I mean SOME, go into social working fields and not protect the weak. I’m not saying we should put a silver spoon in someone’s mouth and keep them from building their own autonomy, but simply speaking up and trying to stop harassment is something I think we can learn to do a lot more effectively. But, I digress.
Caste Heaven is all kinds of F’d up . But, I like reading it because I like studying group dynamics and trying to figure out what makes one violate another’s basic human rights. Or rather why would people give up their own freedoms for a silly game that will only last a couple of years. It’s baffling. But, otherwise it’s a good read.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend…that’s just unfair.
Also, in terms of plotline I have no idea. The manga doesn’t show calendars, or even really reference dates. I want to say it is under a year, but that there has been a lot of time. Even if Bum was faking the seriousness of his injuries. I doubt he would be able to walk after falling down the stairs and having his legs smashed by a hammer, after a couple of months. “that right there” is what leads me to believe that he was at least disabled for a couple of months.
And I just love how you bring up the idea of Bum faking it as a last ditch effort to Keep Sangwoo…Or rather change the power dynamic a little. I never thought of that. I always looked at Bum as a victim. I mean he never spoke up about the abuse until High school, and when he did he was abandoned by that girl after she started getting friends. Moreover, when was bullied in the military and attended college he never spoke up....Now, I’m not saying that to disagree with your point. But, simply to provide a little background for why I agree.
I mean in battered-wife syndrome (a mental condition in which a domestic partner, who suffers from abuse will violently lash out), the abuse victim will finally lash out. While I don’t see, Bum doing that now, I can sort of see him falling deeper and deeper into a razed delusional state. I mean we’ve seen Bum try to escape and tell someone about the issues only to be denied and be called a creep. In turn, we see him become scared when alone.
I want to tie this into battered wife syndrome, because while Bum does not lash out at his attacker. There like other victims is a fear in being alone and that is what pushes them to act violently. In Bum’s case killing Jieun. With what we’ve seen of Bum he reacts in a rather passive aggressive light. Like in High school he told people about that girls light, Also when his uncle was sexually assaulting him, he would go out for walks or spend the night at the sauna. He wouldn’t even acknowledge that he cut himself with the knife the day he was cutting potato’s with his grandma.
I think regarding that, the fact that he also is developing Stockholm syndrome it may match your MO of him possibly do that to manipulate Sangwoo…
May being key…It’s just and I apologize for being wishy washy, but I don’t think Sangwoo is at the point. I mean we openly saw a little when Sangwoo threatened to hang him on a meathook, and Bum tried to get out of it by using sex. But, mood-wise I don’t know if Bum is there yet…Bum tends to take the tactic of evade, and self-destruction. Stabbing yourself is self-destructive of course, but this chapter I feel shows more so a destruction aimed at himself rather than at Sangwoo.
Nonetheless, I believe you are on the right track and he will eventually become more manipulative, because of the Meat hook chapter. And I do completely agree without debate that their relationship is leechy or rather symbiotic.

But, It’s interesting when you bring up parasitic relationships it reminds me of a New Zealand case, during the 1950’s.It involved two 14 year old girls Parker and Hulme. They were incredibly close and being the time it was, the family thought there may be something a little unnatural or homosexual in their closeness. And one of their mother’s thinking the best way to “cure this” thought it best to separate them. Well, because of their closeness, the girls lured the mother in question to the park and ended up killing her so they wouldn’t be separated. I must state the reason for their closeness, because at a young age both were sick and they bonded over that, much to the point that their sense of reality-sort of like Bum’s-was skewed.
Difference being their reality is based on love, and Bum’s abuse and fear. It’s funny and I apologize for saying that. But, after the girls were sent to trial the judge ordered that they never meet again, because as you pointed out with the symbiotic relationship between bum and Sangwoo, their relationship caused them to not think rationally. I read and excerpt from one of girls, and she described the memories of the event as being dream-like. Unreal even. She said she had a lot of remorse and that she can’t believe that she did that but it didn’t feel real. I would like to think maybe as Bum is exposed more and more to murder and Sangwoo’s depravity his sense of reality will become, likewise, “dream-like”.
But, with that in mind, and taking into consideration that the recent chapter showed Bum in jail. Moreover, I believe someone mentioned that Bum has been stalking or repeating inappropriate behavior with females, I’m curious about what you said regarding his moral compass?
I defiantly see guilt and shame, But, I see more fear and self-preservation. Do you mind explaining where you see this moral compass because I’m a tad lost. I’m sorry. I’m just curious.
Regarding Sangwoo, I wonder if he’s simply manipulating Bum by saying it was consensual. I’m sure being raised in the household he was in he witnessed his mother enduring similar situations. After all, in a lot of cases of familial abuse rape tends to follow. Sangwoo, I believe loved his mother. He often spoke fondly of how Bum resembled her with his slim physique and when they bought apples Sangwoo described how he and his mother-not the father included-would eat them together….So on that note, a part of me wants to say maybe he isn’t manipulating Bum-trying to control him. Maybe in his warp mind seeing the way his father abused the mother was what made him re-enact this atrocious behavior?
I don’t know.
Nonetheless, I would love to hear more from you, as I enjoy your theories. please have a good one Akino.

I'd lost my way back to this thread! Σ(っ°Д °;)っ I absolutely loved everything you say. I'm so grateful to see someone who actually thinks about the plot in realistic terms. I remembered you done days ago because I found something on Tumblr about Bum's legs and the timeline. I'll leave the link here in case you're interested: http://this-is-kerrros-lol.tumblr.com/post/156546937430/how-long-has-bum-been-sangwoos-prisoner

I'm not sure what I meant with moral compass at this point, haha. I think it had to do with all the little instances in which Bum acknowledges that his behavior is incorrect, even though lately those moments become blurred when self-preservation/fear kicks in. You used the phrase "dream-like state" for the girls in your anecdote, and I pretty much believe that that's where Bum is heading. I wonder how long it'll take him to dissociate.

If anything, Sangwoo will probably lose a bit of control during this situation. Not just lose control for a bit - I definitely think we're heading for a change.

Ya know, I'm so I called it with that "possible" look of shock on Sangwoo's face in my initial post. :)

I guess he did care-but, you're right in saying that both will fall deeper and deeper into their delusions. I was actually shocked at how skewed Sangwoo's sense of reality was.

I mean I figured him a bit of a narcissist with the treatment of his victims and describing the women as pigs, that looked down on him. But, bringing the flashbacks up, and his reaction to Yoon Bum, made me realize something.

1. people who are abused have a possibility of taking on the characteristics of their abuser after the fact. Ex.) someone who was called a bitch and slapped a lot, may call someone else a bitch and slap them as a way of coping. I would list a specific example, but for the sake of people reading I do not wish to spoil any further, but comparing actual events in the manga.
2. one of the 8 to 15 coping mechanisms of stress is regression and projection. We certainly see Sangwoo projecting the issues he's endured from his father onto Bum and every other victim he has lured. But, regression-going back into child like behavior-was something I ignored and did not expect of Sangwoo, because on the surface we blatantly see the ego.

Sangwoo, in earlier chapters, noted how bum resembled his frail mother both in stature and mannerisms and so he put bum in a skirt. Sangwoo also noted that Bum smelled sort of like his mother once as Bum prepared a meal. AND finally we see him using aggression when Bum loses consciousness. This is normal routine for Sangwoo, yet because we see him attach himself to Bum, and keep him alive rather than dispose of him like everyone else, we see him revert back into a child-like mode.

He drops the bat, clings to Bum begging him to stop bleeding, to get up, and finally abstractly and child-likely cry that "something is wrong". Sangwoo cannot put into words, nor can he really shut down like he used to to immediately provide aid.

it's clear that he cared for his mother, and I feel it's a little more clear that Sangwoo is "possibly" using Bum as a replacement for his mother. As was stated by Freud a child should develop Autonomy around the phallic stage this would be the stage around which a child would suck on a pacifier or bottle, children will at that stage begin to be weaned off that. Yet, for some who are properly weaned off or rather coddled this could be shown in more adult extremes.

Ex.) could be a grown man clinging to an alcohol bottle, or a woman constantly smoking a cigarrette. These are objects that can abstractly represent a phallic symbol. it's a fixation. And yes, Freud is flawed in many things but I think he is right in stating that if a child does not proper establish autonomy at the proper stage they will become stunted, they will cling onto substitute.

In this case, Bum is the object-the pacifier- that Sangwoo clings onto.

It surprises me, because I would've wished for Sangwoo's feelings or concern to be rooted in Bum...but I feel due to his ego, childhood, and attachment to his mother, he is simply latching onto Bum as an object or a memory, rather than a person.

That goes without saying found the clingyness until the abuse showed up again, rather adorable. But, yeah, new dynamic here.

I think it's pretty textbook to have him act like his father when he identifies Bum as his mother. After all, we know the way his father treated them both. What was really interesting was his range of emotions, and you identified them beautifully. I can tell that he thought that his "family picture" was starting to unravel. It's amazing how clingy he can get, and I bet he himself is incredibly confused - one moment he wants to have sex (be one) with Bum, the next he feels rejected and wants to kill him; he won't leave him alone because he can't deal with Bum's autonomy, so he keeps him tied, be that with random acts of protectiveness or with the promise of sex or through sheer blackmail. (And after the latest chapter -and if he catches Mr. Detective-, he'll have greater reasons not to leave him alone.)

I agree with your interpretation of his equating Bum to his mom. It's funny because I always saw him having traits of an anal retentive personality, since this is the stage that's all about control. He is a "neat freak" and an extremely careful planner when it comes to carrying out the killings.

(And yes, I think most of the things Freud left behind for us make great frames for meta, if only because most have been proved wrong, though it's great to analyze Sangwoo from a "psychosexual energy" point of view.)

I'm really intrigued as to how things will develop because I have no idea what's going on in Bum's head right now. Part of him is clearly broken, since he can't stop thinking about the girl he killed, so I suppose he thinks he's "safer" with Sangwoo, like there's no way back for him right now. And let's be honest - back to what? (It's amazing how the world is starting to feel more and more twisted whenever they are out of the house. I think that's Koogi's genius.)