Fellow Old People! Or am I the only one?

A very accurate assessment. I find the Disney offerings to be a watered down and sanitized version of the source material and so terribly optimistic. I like my fairy tales with meat, and teeth. But I also grew up with DC and Marvel, and some of those stories can be eye openers too.

I don't disagree with you at all. I don't think it's good to try to "protect" kids from sexuality and the realities of violence. My comment about how I would watch movies in pajamas if I was 13 again didn't represent my views on the subject very well. That represented more of my feelings when it comes to the days of yore--or rather, the days of innocent childhood. I know that childhood and being a teen isn't typically like that, and I should never expect it to be. There are several reasons why I think it is extremely healthy to explore sexuality in a safe and understanding environment in adolescence, but that I don't think yaoi manga is a good place for that.

For example, when I was about fifteen, my mom, who is a steamy romance writer, left erotica books on our bookshelves. I thought she had done so by accident, but when I grew up, she told me that she had left them there for me specifically. She wanted me to have the opportunity to learn about sex, and how I felt about it. The erotica had all sorts of sexy stories, and they varied quite a bit. There were straight stories, lesbian stories, gay stories, super romantic lovemaking stories, BDSM stories, kinky stories, more laid-back stories, orgies, stories about wanting someone but waiting until the time was right...it had it all. But what made it such a safe place to learn about sex was that even in the BDSM stories, everything was 100% consensual. It gave me a window into the world of healthy sexuality. Many might argue that orgies are not healthy, and they are entitled to their opinion, but no one in that book felt anything but amazing in these stories. When it came to me exploring sexuality itself, I had a safe place to feel desire.

Now, your point about having a "frank conversation about the nature of real versus imaginary exploitation of violence" is so insightful. And maybe I am totally wrong, but I strongly feel that when young teens (as young as thirteen, or even younger), learn about exploitation and violence, it needs to happen in a supportive, open discussion with trustworthy adults. Coming to terms with the feelings of sexual desire is hard enough without mixing in complications like rape and violence. In other words, I would not want to have to deal with the feelings of being uncomfortable with being aroused AND being confronted by the reality of sexual violence. In addition, when learning about sex and sexuality, learning healthy boundaries and consent is of the utmost importance.

If I was a young teen and I came across a smutty yaoi portraying rape as sexy, and saw dozens of comments about how sexy it was, it would have fucked me up. I had unwanted sexual contact as a young teen, and that is far more common than even the experts think. Even if I hadn't been through that, while I was just getting used to the idea of having naughty feelings about intimate contact, there is no way I could have wrapped my head around the idea of rape fantasy. As an adult, I understand that there is a difference between actual rape and rape fantasy, and it's huge, but as a young teen, I would have just been disturbed and upset. And I wouldn't have been able to talk to anyone about it, because a teen viewing media like that would have been so taboo.

I know not every teen is like that. But I can't help but worry. I know some of the teens online today are leaps and bounds ahead of where I was at their age in terms of sexual development. But I am certain that not all of them are, and that almost none of them have anyone to talk to about the disturbing things they feel. That includes on the message boards here. If anyone asks about the appeal of rape, or expresses distaste or horror, they pretty much get chewed to pieces by the hardcore fans.

But, in retrospect, I don't know if online live-action pornography is any better. I don't have enough experience in it to know.

Are you a parent? I am curious based on what you have said, and curious about your experience in guiding your children if you are. I am a parent, but my child is only two, so we haven't addressed these issues yet. I am 100% certain that I will change my mind at least slightly as I go along. That's how this stuff usually works.

Sometimes, I think they should just make them original stories and get it over-with. "Frozen" was supposed to be based off of "The Ice Queen" by Hans Christian Andersen, and the only thing it had in common with it was that the antagonist was a queen who practiced ice magic and turned summer into winter. That's how a lot of the stories are. They are so different, it's kind of silly to say they are based off of the classic tales.

Yes, Disney totally ruined The Little Mermaid for me. Cinderella to a lesser degree and I would not even deign to watch Frozen.

It's fine if you want to describe how your personal experiences have affected you, but it's solipsistic and fallacious to extrapolate that, because you feel this way, everyone who has been through a similar experience shares your thoughts, feelings and conclusions about ravishment fantasies and yaoi—so that your preferences should, therefore, apply across the board, regardless of what others prefer.

I've spoken to many survivors of sexual assault, both throughout my career, and as a person who has participated on this site almost since its inception and on other boards where yaoi was celebrated, and quite simply, they do not share your views or conclusions. They are not and were not "fucked up" by yaoi or irrevocably and unalterably disturbed, upset or affected negatively by the ravishment fantasy, because it is nothing like what they experienced.

I've also worked with many survivors of childhood molestation and studied this issue closely, and I can assure you that everything about fictional yaoi is the polar opposite of materials used to groom children, from the purpose and intent, to the progression and conclusion. Pornography is used to demean personal agency, objectify sexuality, and teach that the purpose of the victim is to be exploited sexually. Romance/Yaoi and, in fact, the ravishment fantasy itself, is a semaphore for many things, including: (a) love conquers all, (b) a transaction of power dynamics where the victim emerges as the victor, (c) the release of tension built up from repressed sexual passion in situations where the individual dares not express desire, (d) the release of tension from overweening responsibility and hypervigilance, and much more. The experience is unique to each individual. Yaoi and porn are polar opposites. In fact, many readers of yaoi use the depictions of sexual assault as a safe and therapeutic means of working through their own ambivalent residual feelings such as that their own bodies betrayed them, or that they have no control over their circumstances.

As for the argument of "What about the children?" Where are their parents? Who is monitoring their activities? This is a parental matter, not a matter for everyone else to endure.

Wow, this discussion has certainly veered into the clinical (psychology) and philosophical realm. I am pretty sure that most of the dialogue is over the heads of many of the readers here, but it is fascinating.
Are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist? Or do you counsel victims of abuse? (just curious - my education is shaded more towards the arts/history)

I am reluctant to get too specific, but criminal psychiatry, victim services and crisis intervention and management were involved. My career has veered in a different direction since.

Gotcha! I have a friend (or two) who works in victim services/social welfare, so the language and discussion was hauntingly familiar. I must say, though, that it is refreshing to see some *ahem* adult *ahem* dialogue here. So many entries are "this is so cuuutee!" or diatribes and/or bullying, and it can get a little old. :D

I don't want DaisiesandLillies to feel she can't express her concerns and fears, or draw from her own experiences to explain why she has them. That would be counter-productive. She should feel welcome to express herself and read the stuff she likes and have warning labels to help her avoid the stuff she doesn't.

At the same time, I won't concede to appeals for censorship, or validate insinuations that people who enjoy the ravishment fantasy in romance fiction are clear and obvious rape apologists, who contribute to rape culture and make the world more dangerous. Or, that they are any more or less morally corrupt or desensitized than those who do not (which to her credit and obvious maturity, DaisiesandLillies has NOT done, apart from saying that the only ones who get shouted down are pro-censorship. Shouting down happens on both sides of the argument.)

Personally, I think the rape-trope is overdone and a lazy and uninspired means of establishing conflict for a predictable and boring resolution. One thing it isn't is a rationalization for real life rape.

It's getting more and more difficult to get the right mix of protection and freedom, but certainly still doable if you put effort into it. Total sheltering to the extent of isolation is of course not the answer, but everything can be moderated if parents set the right expectations from the start and stick with it. The 10 year old in my house would never be allowed on this site. She only gets access to the internet with supervision, because parental control software only does so much, and kids that age simply have no business having access to everything knowing the wifi password will get you. On the other side of it, though, she knows she will get an honest answer to any legitimate question she has, and is free to make requests for things she might want to read or want to look up. If we deem she can process literature, she's allowed to read it, regardless of the age bracket it's targeted toward; I was reading and enjoying Stephen King by 3rd grade, but she has made the call on her own that scary books give her bad dreams. The kids that age (or claiming to be that age) on here are given too little supervision; total freedom without any moderation before having the maturity to utilize it well leads to Lord of the Flies situations. Or fraternities.

*nods, nods* For years, my brother and SiL's family put the family computer in the kitchen, the only one in the house, at a desk in the kitchen so that research had to happen under the noses of a very busy family. If there's anything less conducive to the art of stealth self-pleasuring, it would have to be the smell of cabbage, liver and onions while mom's going on about whose turn it is to pick up the dog's fecal matter.

I kept all my computers password protected, and searches were supervised. The cellphones were flip models. But I couldn't control what happened at school, friends' houses, or when cellphones started including data packages. Even before there was internet, there was always some ... male relative (usually) ... who had a stack of men's magazines under his bed or in the loo. So there was always the risk that one's snoopy brats, who were never allowed to behave like that at home, would sneak off when the adults were chatting away to snicker at pictures of the nekkid ladies. And some men used to be a whole lot less self-conscious about where they pinned up their porn, too, papering the walls of their worksites with it. That's why I felt it was important to have all the necessary conversations early on and keep the lines of communication open.

I dislike the idea of censorship when it comes to reading materials myself. Many manga do have a 18+ warning on them, but perhaps that is some of the appeal. That being said, a lot of the manga posted here does border on pornography, and is not really age appropriate for young teens (some say they are 9-14 years old), any more than a Playboy magazine or actual porn would be appropriate. Both of those mediums, and some of the more explicit manga, do represent ideas that may be difficult for younger minds to grasp.

This site has a bit of a dichotomy, as there are manga like Bleach and Naruto alongside hentai, ecchi and some seriously psychologically disturbing stories. While most stories do have positive outcomes, many, such as the explicit rape tropes, do not deal with the aftermath in a healthy fashion. (ie: I love *A*, so I rape *A*, and *A* falls happily in love - and I agree the rape trope is heavily overdone) Fantasy is all well and good, providing one has the maturity to comprehend that it is only fantasy and not real life.

All that being said, my mother gave me my first erotic (highly erotic) novel when I was in sixth grade, and I handled the exposure fairly well, but I think I was somewhat more mature than my friends at that time, and preferred the company of people older, so perhaps my mother felt safe giving it to me.

Your mother was less inhibited than mine. Mine tucked a copy of "Our Bodies, Our Selves" on my night table one day. It was so dry and clinical, I felt like I was reading about dissections in a laboratory. The chapter on lesbianism flew completely over my head. "What do they mean dykes aren't dams in Holland? Yes, they are." So ....

Ummm...fun. But accurate and informative nonetheless.
Mine was called Skye O'Malley - a very smutty historical (no LGBT in it but lots of dysfunction/rape/unhealthy relationships) and quite surprising given the conservative nature of my parents. That was when I learned my mother was not quite so stuffy and close minded, my dad was a different story, as he is something of a right wing bigot, who only like 'white, straight people' and disparaged my Fine Art Degree as useless fluff. (toughest four years of my life! my history/languages degree was a walk in the park)

"There has never been a woman like luscious, raven-haired, hot-tempered Skye O'Malley. She is the courageous seafaring captain of her own mighty fleet, and intelligent enough to win a battle of wits with Queen Elizabeth herself. Follow along as Skye O'Malley is swept up in a journey filled with romance and passion that takes her from glittering Ireland, to lush Algeria, to the heart of London in pursuit of a unique and eternal love." By Bertrice Small ... who evidently couldn't decide whether the luscious, raven-haired seafarer was Irish or Scottish, and was probably a balding, 55-year-old ex-con who picked up the knack for writing romance fic because that was the only stuff available at the prison library. (Just kidding.) It does sound about as believable as a Cupcake Yakuza yaoi thriller.

Um ... "manroots"? MANROOTS?!!! (It sounds like something out of Alien.)

You poor thing, what a bad Dad! *growls at him like a feisty Irishy-Scottishy wenchy thing with a heart-shaped face, glowing sapphire eyes (glowing? Like laser beams?) and killer perfect Bazzoongas.*

LMAO - did you look that up??? I have not looked at that book since ... um ... eighth grade (I read it twice) Yes, a swashbuckling bodice ripper full of improbabilities. But it was an eye opener.

Where did you get the manroots? (when I read that, the recent interwebs meme of the phallic potato sprung to mind - pun intended) Was it from the book? My memory of it is imperfect.

And I sort of ignore the old man, he came from a small town in a small European country that had little diversity, so it was what he grew up with, and he is a stubborn old coot, who does not like change.

It warms my heart to see that there are older people on here who likes yaoi, because I'm in my 20's, and I used to feel a bit embarrassed about the fact that I still read it. I once saw a lady on here who said that she's a grandmother and likes BL. It was pretty uplifting.

My mother did the same thing, the only other sex talk I got was "I don't care what you do, your sister did it all, just don't get pregnant" cept I was raised Christian so the book was super limited to anatomy. I learned everything from my older cousin.