Okay, so is your stance "yes and no" or is it "no"? You replied in the beginning saying that your response to people saying "its the parents fault" was "yes and no" and then ended saying "That is his decision. Not Siwon's nor their parent's...His and his alone" which would imply that you feel as though regardless of how the parents raised him he would've ended up the same. Personally, i feel it is "yes and no" as the entire situation could've been circumvented had the parents stood up for Jiwook when others were comparing him to his brother (they literally just smile while these things are being said) or by noticing when he started to act out and making an effort to help him. He slapped Siwon's hand away when he was trying to help, this should've been an indicator for the parent's to intervene. They could have completely removed Jiwook from the situation if they had just taken any initiative with their child instead of just laughing it all off. They didn't even intervene with Siwon before he killed himself. Their son was bullied at school daily and eventually even brought into an organized gang rape, he later planned to kill himself. There should've been some indication of depression and if they'd been paying attention they should've sat Siwon down and tried to talk with him. Transfer him to another school to deal with the bully problem, something, before it all added up to the point that he killed himself. There were plenty of things the parents could've done and i believe they're a huge contribution to why the two ended up the way they did, i just don't believe they're the ENTIRE reason. Obviously there're other factors such as school environment that could've effected Jiwook's unstable personality making it worse and obviously it DID effect Siwon's decision to commit suicide. They allowed Jiwook and Siwon to stay in an environment that was slowly killing them, one literally and one metaphorically. So, "yes and no".
Kids can be very good at faking it to parents. I want to believe SiWon's parents should have noticed (at the very least, teachers/administrators trained in this should have known bullying was going on, and we know Jiwook KNEW bullying was going on and could have reported it to parents, except he's an evil shite).
I was depressed and suicidal as a teen, and my parents didn't know it, cause I hid it pretty well. Long after high school, when I told my mother, she was shocked. She never noticed, even though I often pondered how best to kill myself.
Even in this manhwa, we see Jiwook be all nice son with parents, faking being concerned about SiWon, and as soon as parents are out of view, his REAL self shows. I assume SiWon hid his situation for his own reasons.
I bet there are more parents out there shocked by a suicide than not, "We had no idea," I bet they'd say.
There is a difference between their situation and yours though, you said "kids can be very good at faking it to parents" and then continued on with your statement while applying this to their situation when from what we've seen Jiwook HASN'T been all that great at hiding his inner turmoil. He hit Siwon's hand away really violently when Siwon was trying to comfort him, i'm sure there were other signs as well. He's mentally unstable and i don't see that being hidden all that well considering that he is apparently really easy to read, Taemin was able to read his expressions as fear rather than hate when he was questioning Jiwook about Joohoon. Also, we don't really see much of Jiwook's interactions with his parents, so to say "in this manhwa we see Jiwook be all nice son with his parents" seems kind of inaccurate to me. I realize what you're saying and completely agree that IF someone is good at hiding it their pain wont show on the outside, but where you and i don't agree is Jiwook's capability to keep his pain internal, i believe it has been made obvious that he is very... emotional. It's fine if you don't feel as though it was the parent's fault in any way, I just feel as though it WAS partially their fault and to say they had literally nothing to do with it because it was Jiwook's decision just doesn't ring clear with me. i have NO problems with peoples' opinions differing from mine so feel free and disagree, it won't change my opinion or my positive impression of you. The text of mine that you responded to was actually to the OP as well.
Good at hiding it from PARENTS. And the only time we see Jiwook interacting with family, he's lowkey and fakes concern.
I do feel the parents are at fault for allowing unbalanced praise, but since we see so little of them, we can't gauge how they are interacting with the children.
So, if both Jiwook and SiWon are dissembling to the parents, they wouldn't know about the awful emotional and violent things going on.
To expect that parents notice what children hide is not realistic. Maybe parents who are very, very involved, observant, and intuitive. But if parents are working, busy, or take things at face value if kids don't act up, well....
Taemin saw Jiwook ungaurded at a moment when a bomb of a question was posed. The parents may have never thrown bomb questions looking to see a reaction. Taemin knows more about real Jiwook than the parents, because Jiwook feels no need to guard his nasty side from Taemin. And the fact they were talking about a dangerous subject (JooHoon)...that's key. I doubt the parents brought up JooHoon. Ahem.
Yes, but it's clearly not just the topic of Joohoon that triggers Jiwook, anything that makes him feel like his "spot" is in danger upsets him to the point that he, apparently, starts to have delusions. Assuming someone with such a critical handicap could keep it hidden is what isn't realistic. You can assume that hey just didn't catch any indication of what was happening with not just one, but BOTH of their children, but the more likely case is that they saw a few things and just didn't take it seriously enough. All of this is just speculation based on what we've seen so far which is just Jiwook acting like he cares when Siwon (Taemin) comes home after the suicide attempt (which doesn't indicate in any way that Jiwook was doing that to fool his parents so much as that he just doesn't want his participation in the cause of the suicide to be found out) and Jiwook's interactions with Siwon (Taemin). One brother is psychotic enough to allow his brother to be gang raped and then encourage him to kill himself, the other brother was bullied every day in school and then gang raped leading to suicide. The case here is extremely drastic on BOTH brothers and for you to think the parents didn't notice anything, to me, is naive. As i said, feel free and disagree, but i'm telling you that while i agree with you on some points i don't and won't agree with you in that the parents aren't at least partially at fault.
Oh,. no question. Both are under huge duress and you'd THINK it would show. But we saw that scene where Taemin/SiWon notices the immediate shift. Jiwook has learned to act differently as needed and to switch it out on a dime.
I said the parents were partially at fault. I never said they weren't at fault. I said that many parentrs of suicide children are shocked. They didn't SEE the signs. My parents didn't see the signs of my deep depression, because I put on a fake front to them. I played a part so as not to distress THEM.
So, I know that hiding stuff from parents is not that hard. I never told them when I was assaulted. I never told them when someoen followed me home and tried to break into the house. I never told them about the suicidal impulses. Many things got hidden.
If SiWon and Jiwook in their distress put up fake fronts, they could succeed, depending on how involved the parents are. Heck, how many manga/manhua have we read where the parents aren't even home much or who only talk pleasantries at meals?
Okay, if you agree that the parents are partially at fault then we seem to agree now. I'll acknowledge that it is possible that the parents didn't notice the signs, i just don't acknowledge it as the likely scenario. There is a difference between their scenario and yours, you have full use of your brain and logic so you'd be more inclined towards hiding your feelings while as Jiwook has serious mental issues that even led to him hallucinating, i don't believe he would've been capable of maintaining a facade and Siwon was being bullied for a long period of time so you'd think they'd have noticed something. The longer the bullying continued the more likely it was for someone to notice, have you considered that maybe a teacher would've noticed and alerted the parents? In my opinion, based on the Jiwook's character and the degree of depression that Siwon was feeling, it is likely that someone would've noticed. I feel like this is the more likely case. Sure, IF they were good at putting up a front it is possible that their pain wasn't found out, but there isn't really any evidence saying one way or the other if anyone knew what the two were going through or about whether or not either of them made an effort to mask their pain from others. My stance is that, hypothetically speaking, someone in a close position to both of those boys would've noticed something was wrong, you disagree, thats fine. You're also trying to say that MAYBE they were good at hiding their feelings, which is a possibility, but there isn't really anything indicating as such. We've actually seen the opposite, Jiwook has been nothing but a psychotic mess this entire time.
You're right, you didn't literally say "the parents aren't at fault", but you've been pleading the parents' case giving ways that they might not have even noticed what was happening with their children which implies, to me, that you don't feel as though the parents should be placed under any blame.
Well I would get into everything with you but I see you had a good conversation with a fellow reader. I don't want to drag you along a similar conversation. But my ultimate answer is no; the parents are not at fault in my opinion for how Jiwook turnt out. Yes I did say yes and no but I meant yes in more of the term that yes if they had just loved their boys equally. Showed Jiwook that he doesn't need to impress those people or be like his brother; maybe it would have helped.
But when I said no that was my way of saying that ultimately the parents did not create those mental feelings towards his brother. He could have easily just loathed them and their friends but instead he allowed himself the manifest anger and hatred toward the wrong person. Now I am not speaking completely for Siwon because we don't know everything yet. But I have a pretty decent feeling no matter whether the parents treated one child like a eye sore doesn't mean they're really at fault. Though I don't think they intentionally tried to harm the son; parents just loved to brag and brag but never listen.
Parents can be the most naive people out there. They think their children are like one thing and that they know them so well but the child is human too. They know who they are; they know how to lie, steal, cheat, and manipulate. From seeing it in real life; parents can be the most blind people out there for their children. All kids are innocent in parents eyes but not all children grow up to be that way.
In the end I see what you mean; it can be either way but for me I still only blame Jiwook. He is old enough to know how to handle his anger and he did; he choose to let it out on his brother. Sad situation for both boys: I just petty Siwon more. Well...since he did die...
The parents didn't put the thoughts into Jiwook's head, but they DID allow him to stay in an environment where he'd slowly degrade. As i've said to the "the parents might not have known" approach, i find this very unlikely as the severity of the situation has already reached a max. It's one thing to miss the signs for a while, but it's and entire other thing to notice when not just one, but BOTH of your children are being broken on the inside. I've already said this, but Jiwook doesn't appear to me to even be capable of masking his feelings as evidenced in the scene where he smack Siwon's hand away when Siwon is trying to comfort him, he gets angry and lashes out. I'm not saying it is an impossibility that the parents didn't notice, i'm just saying that while i acknowledge it as a possibility i don't acknowledge it as the likely case. I've mentioned that in Siwon's case the bullying had been progressing over a long period of time, it's one thing not to notice at first, but the longer the bullying went on the more likely it would've been for someone to notice. I don't imagine that the parents were oblivious to Siwon being bullied as, at the very least, a teacher should've noticed how the other students were treating him and alerted his parents. What i believe is the more likely scenario is that they knew what Siwon and Jiwook were going through, but didn't take it seriously enough. Maybe they thought that the bullying was just "something everyone goes through" and maybe they thought Jiwook's outbursts were "a phase", but i feel like it is very likely that they at least had some indication that there were things amiss with both of their children. I just don't see it the way you do, i can't imagine that things could get to the level of severity they did without the parents having some clues. It doesn't make sense to say "the parents had nothing to do with it." in my opinion. I feel as though they were at least partially at fault.
Yes, as a kid he smacked his brother's hand away. We do not know what happened after that. And I don't take that as any kind of huge sign, as siblings fight--normal siblings who care about each other--all the time. Or did you never fight with yours?
And I also would think that the horrible stuff going on would leak. I would wish parents had the best eye about that. But my own life, I've seen oblivious parents, who were otherwise loving and kind, because kids can do the double-life thing.
Shoot, I personally know parents who had no clue their kid was hurting and cutting. You'd think cutting would be majorly obvious (it's not like they lived in a huge mansion where people could get lost, just a regular small house). But a teen can be mighty deceptive and good at hiding what they want to hide.
I happen to think the few scenes of personality change with Jiwook indicate he got good at lying.
We have fewer scenes with the parents than we do with the brothers, so really, believing they were oblivious parents is pretty easy for me, just because I've known such in real life.
I'd need more scenes of childhood to make a judgment about how much the parents purposely ignored and how much the twins allowed them to see of their ongoing issues. It could be they addressed it, and then the "acting like a good kid."
I guess my point is that even kids know when they are doing wrong. When I was 9 and 10 and 11, I knew what was right and wrong. I might not have had the full faculties of someone mature, but I knew that bullying was wrong, that lying was wrong, that stealing was wrong, that killing was wrong. Once one is aware what is right and wrong and chooses wrong--guess who's fault that is?
"We do not know what happened after that. And I don't take that as any kind of huge sign, as siblings fight--normal siblings who care about each other--all the time. Or did you never fight with yours?"----I'm sorry, but i'm not going to argue that with you, this scene clearly wasn't just "sibling rivalry", it is following Jiwook's first time being compared to his brother and accompanied by the delusions... It's literally just a weak case to try and say they were just fighting...
"We do not know what happened after that. And I don't take that as any kind of huge sign, as siblings fight--normal siblings who care about each other--all the time. Or did you never fight with yours?"----In other words you're basing your opinion on your own life experience? This is called being biased by definition, there isn't even any evidence showing that Jiwook was fooling his parents or playing the "good son" role, you just want to believe that is the case because it'd match up a little with your own story.
"Shoot, I personally know parents who had no clue their kid was hurting and cutting. You'd think cutting would be majorly obvious (it's not like they lived in a huge mansion where people could get lost, just a regular small house). But a teen can be mighty deceptive and good at hiding what they want to hide."----I'm going to reply to this with the same thing i said above, you're letting your bias effect your opinion on the matter.
"I happen to think the few scenes of personality change with Jiwook indicate he got good at lying."----I disagree, i'd say they indicate the opposite, it looks more to me like Jiwook can't help but act like his real self when it involves Siwon and i feel like this would show even in front of his parents.
"We have fewer scenes with the parents than we do with the brothers, so really, believing they were oblivious parents is pretty easy for me, just because I've known such in real life."----Okay, and the fact that we have less scenes with them means that we can't assume either way, meaning that while i'm assuming and could be wrong about whether or not they noticed their children's pain and just didn't respond with enough care, you are also just as likely to be wrong. It is all speculation as we don't have any material to base our opinions off of. I'm just saying that i feel like my opinion is the more likely one, if you disagree then that's fine, i just don't follow your train of thought and you're being biased again in this part as well.
"I'd need more scenes of childhood to make a judgment about how much the parents purposely ignored and how much the twins allowed them to see of their ongoing issues. It could be they addressed it, and then the 'acting like a good kid.'."----Same response i gave above^.
"I guess my point is that even kids know when they are doing wrong. When I was 9 and 10 and 11, I knew what was right and wrong. I might not have had the full faculties of someone mature, but I knew that bullying was wrong, that lying was wrong, that stealing was wrong, that killing was wrong. Once one is aware what is right and wrong and chooses wrong--guess who's fault that is?"----You're bringing that argument back, but i've already addressed it. You're saying "he made his choice himself" while conveniently ignoring the factors that influenced his choice, we make the choices we do because our perspective was set by the things we were raised around. Someone who grew up in a brothel is less likely to be disgusted by prostitution than someone who'd never been around something similar. Do you see what i'm trying to say? It doesn't matter how old he was because everything leading up to that moment in time is what shaped the way he responded to whatever was happening in that period of stress. His parents are his guardians and should've been paying enough attention to notice something with this level of severity and if they didn't notice it is likely someone like a teacher or guidance counselor would've noticed as it is their job. Also, as far as Jiwook goes, there're signs for every mental disorder, my school picked up on me having ADHD because of the behavior i exhibited and the fact that i used to walk on the tips of my toes as a child, i image something similar would've happened with him as his mental disorder was more severe and emotional than mine.
I respect your opinion, but i'm starting to feel like you aren't respecting mine. If this isn't the case, then fine, but i think i'm done discussing this. I feel like i've already addressed all your points and you occasionally feel the need to repeat certain parts. You're definitely entitled to your opinion, and usually i wouldn't mind a good debate, i just dont feel like what is being brought forward is really anything i need to argue as it is just speculation on both our ends. We're essentially saying "no, i think it was this way" at each other, which really is just about interpretation since we're just speculating on characters that haven't been given any development, they (the parents) don't even have more than like 2 scenes, one at the beginning and one during the flashback. As i've said, i acknowledge what you're saying COULD have happened as a possibility, i just don't feel like it is the likely case. It was nice debating with you, thank you. I hope this discussion doesn't impact our further interactions as i have a relatively good impression of you still.
I won't drive you insane with this conversation by explaining my opinion. Thank you both for not violently blacking out at each other on my topic/statement. Didn't mean start a controversy if one happened. I feel as both of you made very valid points and I can't wait to see if it will play out either way. Also I just needed to say my feelings in this conversation since I never was apart of it most of the time.
It's a comic. Of course, I can base my opinions on bias or my experience or a textbook. :D It's not like I'm a family therapist working with the Hans. I can choose to interpret it any way I want.
And I don't take discussions personally. I'm very big on letting people have different opinions. So, actually, I find you very mentally stimulating.
YaoiLover, it's all good. Discussion is not a bad thing. Please always, always express your feelings.
This story is so interesting and can go in so many ways--Jiwook may ultimately be semi-heroic or the great tragic hero or he may be as villainous as can be; could be a twins swap and we got the wrong guy as the villain, and so on. I think that's what makes this such fun to read. We can theorize just about anything and FEEL that. We can hope for any number of outcomes.
Ideally, for me, if I had my wish, there would be reconciliation, repentance, forgiveness, and somehow the dead brother (whichever he may be, heh) will have a happy ending. And Joohoon will be buried in an unmarked grave. :D
Yeah, no problem. The comments section is here for people to post their interpretations and opinions, nothing is wrong or right till proven so. That's why i don't act like mine is definitely right, the only stance i ever take is what is the more "likely" thing to happen. Thanks for responding to us, btw.
I'm not saying you can't base your opinions off of real life experience, its just that if we're to argue which hypothetical scenario is more likely we'll need to look at both from a neutral perspective. I had suicidal thoughts in high school as well, i didn't let my experience on the matter show in my responses to you however because while it can be used as a point of reference, it shouldn't be used as the basis of your argument. You have been saying that it is more likely that the parents wouldn't have noticed what Jiwook and Siwon were going through because kids can be good at masking their pain, you're backing this with your own life experience and most of what you've used to rebuttle my claims have been from your own life perspective. I suppose it's fine either way, which is why i chose not to say anything until later on into the debate, it is just a less reliable source to go off of as what was the case for one person isn't the case for every person. The reason i decided to stay in the debate so long was because i did genuinely want to combat your points, it just kind of dragged on longer than i intended so i decided to try and shut it down a few times to which you'd just continue the debate. This is fine, i'm not upset or anything, it's just that when you don't let someone out of the debate it shows a lack of concern for their stance in the topic. I realize that this isn't the case now because you clarified that you weren't just pushing your opinion, you just genuinely wanted to see more of what i would say. Thank you for clarifying this, its nice to know that we were debating on equal grounds rather than you trying to change my mind. I had just been trying to explain what i think and why, which i feel i did so i decided to stop there. The point into the debate that i decided to stop at was when i realized that we were literally just arguing perspectives to each other, which cannot be done. You can't argue one hypothetical situation is right and one is wrong, just which is more likely. I explained why i thought mine was the more likely and since you responded with why you think yours was the more likely i decided that that was as far as the debate would go. It couldn't go any farther than that if you think about it. It really was fun to debate with you though and i can see why, given your history, you feel the way that you do. I could easily see it being exactly as you said in that the parents DIDN'T know about their childrens' suffering and i wouldn't blink twice, i'd just accept it as one of the likely possibilities. Thank you for your time as well and while i do stick with my stance, you got me to accept that MAYBE the parents DIDN'T notice their pain while as before talking to you i had just assumed it obvious that they would have. Good chat. (●'◡'●)ﾉ
I'm a "venter." I like just getting all emotional and hollering at characters and etc. I get worked up. But that's part of how this gives me relaxation. I yell at manga and I can be a sweet, calm honeypie for the rest of the day. :D Some people play tennis or job or build birdfeeders or hunt. I get emotional at stories and wish villains death. Or I cry. Or I get all silly at fluffy stories.
I don't even care if I'm right. It's fun theorizing, even crazy theories.
Well, given that manga/manhwa sometimes take unbelievably ridiculous turns and unrealistic ones, too, I don't necessarily feel that being logical will turn out to be right, either. Storyland can be a wacko place. And some authors love doing the crazy twists--for drama. I mean, in real life, Taemin wouldn't be in SiWon's body. haha
Oh Jiwook...tsk tsk
What I want to say is I understand Jiwook but to hell with me actually siding with him. I still think he is a low life prick. I would never harm nor let my sibling be raped and commit suicide and live with myself to think it's okay.
He blames his own crazy sense of reality on Siwon when it was him making up weird ideas that everyone looked down on him. Yeah people liked Siwon better but doesn't give him the right to think that he can destroy Siwon for that.
I also see people slightly back and forth about whether it's the parent's fault how Jiwook turnt out. Some yes and no; yes they should have praised their other child more and loved BOTH boys unconditionally. But just because some people praised one child more doesn't mean the other will lose their mind over it. It's call getting over it...if people blamed everything they decided to do just because mommy and daddy didn't love them enough...jesus christ the world would fall apart.
I am me because of me. Yes my parents raised by their rules and morals but I choose the path I walk and so did Jiwook. He could have talked to his mom and dad or relied on his brother. But instead he choose to live in his own pain and selfishness. That is his decision. Not Siwon's nor their parent's...His and his alone.