@MangaSanctuary

I also agree on the Fries model, however let's not forget that Dan and Jk are not US citizens,they are south Koreans. So, let's also explore the Laws and jurisdictions of south Korea regarding their matter.(?) . Even in America,every state's law is different.

Anyways,good morning Akaito, baby love ⁄(⁄ ⁄·⁄ω⁄·⁄ ⁄)⁄

i think this discussion would be longer than my miserable life

My Jinx Angel (〜￣△￣)〜

I don’t really understand what you’re saying here and…no, I won’t ignore their first time together. If we’re asking the question of whether or not there’s any rape in this webtoon then we have to look at all the sex scenes that happen here, no?

Also, with both vaginal and anal sex, a person shouldn’t bleed if they’re properly relaxed, aroused, and prepared well. That’s a very common misconception about sex.

if it has a rape or not so what can we do??? it's the author's wish
i agree with what u have said but JK has a humongous cock it's not his fault ig and also i think he stretched his tiny asshole and used lube so yeah,,,,,,,,,,

I’m not talking about the law, though. We’re not talking about whether or not Jaekyung would be found guilty by the government for a crime, we’re talking about interpersonal relationships and how, ideally, things maybe ought to be defined. And it’s also precisely because the law is different everywhere that it’d be hard to pin down. Not to mention, the law and law enforcement are not infallible things—the law can’t encapsulate every experience, and it’s all made by humans who have their own biases. It was only recently that marital rape became outlawed in all 50 US states, for example. I don’t know how you feel about it, but I think it would be fucked up to say to people who were raped by their spouses prior to it formally becoming a crime that what they experienced wasn’t rape just because the law didn’t think so.

gonna sleep, goodbye~

It’s not about whether or not we as readers can do something about it, obviously there isn’t—but understanding the nature of the sex between Dan and Jaekyung has implications about their dynamic overall and how we talk about it. Obviously consensual but rough sex is very different from rape. MangaSanctuary said originally, from what I remember, that people, mostly fans of Jinx, will always have a knee-jerk reaction to others calling Jaekyung a rapist if they don’t actually come with the facts and evidence that he is so—so I’m trying to clear the air.

Also, Jaekyung…is definitely at fault for how bad their first time was together. I think you can say that some discomfort on Dan’s behalf would’ve been inevitable because yeah Jaekyung is huge and the overall circumstances could not have been further from arousing for Dan, but let’s not act like Jaekyung didn’t just shove himself inside Dan? Not to mention he didn’t even try to get Dan to relax lmfao.

Also Dan and Jaekyung are two men. The issue of rape and sexual assault and women's rights in general in South Korea is already...if you know, you know. If you don't know, in short: South Korean society is quite conservative. If things are already bad for women then, legally speaking, I find it highly unlikely that the government would give a fuck about gay people with regards to these issues. And similarly I would find it very fucked up to say to a man who was forced to have any type of sex against his will that what he went through wasn't rape or sexual assault just because it was done to him by a man and the law doesn't acknowledge that.

It's 2:50 am in France, so will reply you guys tomorrow

Rape is not a simple issue to talk about without the full knowledge of the Law, same with consent. I'm just stating that it's best to explore the Laws and jurisdictions of South Korea since the involves are from there. This is a sensitive issue. There's no marital rape in jinx since Jk and Dan are not married couple.
I agree that Jk did not respect Dan regarding that matter,but I'm not a legal practitioner,a lawyer to conclude that what he did to Dan is Rape. There once a commenter/reader who said that there was no rape in TOXIN because "nameless" did "that" in order to get his revenge to the one who killed his mother. Nameless,wanted to be Garon's painter to be able to have his revenge to Garon but he did not offer his body to Garon. But the reader criticized Jinx for being a rape manhwa. That was why, whenever I encounter this kind of topic I always depend on the law.

Before 2012,only "woman" could be the victim of rape, because it was considered that only women possessed female genitals. But since the technology developed, cases of transgender women ( many of whom are still legally male ) becoming rape victims have begun to emerge,so the law changed to define the rape victim as a "person" instead of a woman. This is from the south Korea Law

I didn't bring up marital rape to say that what occurs between Dan and Jaekyung is marital rape, I was just bringing it up as an example of my point that "the law can’t encapsulate every experience, and it’s all made by humans who have their own biases," and that just because something that happens to someone isn't legally defined doesn't mean it didn't happen to them. Yes there are legal definitions of things but there are also more colloquial definitions of things. Is there a legal definition for a "cake"? No, but we all generally know what a cake is and can distinguish between what is or isn't a cake. We can also dispute the definition of what a cake is. This can happen with legal definitions, too—of course that's part of why we have trials in the first place, and things like (in the US) Supreme Court cases, because even per-established, written laws with all their definitions still need to be interpreted by people, and sometimes it is found that, actually, the current legal definition needs some changing or clarifying.

That's why I bring up FRIES in discussions with people. Again, we're talking about this interpersonal relationship, not whether or not Jaekyung should go to jail. I want to find common ground between myself and the person I'm chatting with, not the law per se.

I would say though that yeah I think the situation between the MC and Garon in Toxin, while messier than in Jinx because of the MC's motivations, is still rape. But I feel like with Toxin the dynamic between MC and Garon is just...much more complex than what happens between Dan and Jaekyung, too.

Anyway yes I saw this and this was precisely part of the point I'm making. Yes of course NOW we can have this discussion about whether what Jaekyung did to Dan was rape or not but had we been in 2011 or 2010 then what? Like I said, gay men wouldn't have even been considered. Frankly I think the law as it stands (at least from the site I'm seeing) seems to still neglect certain cases (victims of rape who are men, where the perpetrator is a woman) but fine. If we want to play the law game, we can. I am guessing we're both looking at this: https://seoullawgroup.com/sexual-crimes-korea/

But I'm also looking at the other article they have: https://seoullawgroup.com/rape-law-korea/

Apparently according to Korean law the act also has to happen through significant enough violence and intimidation, basically where it's almost impossible for the victim to resist the perpetrator. First of all, I have to point out that this legal definition of rape does not include cases of, say, coercion or manipulation—a case like, person A kept saying no to sex with person B over and over again, but person B kept asking, and eventually person A (reluctantly) gave in just to get them to stop wouldn't count as rape, for example. Though under FRIES, it definitely would be. I'm also already seeing articles about how people within Korea, especially women, but others, too, do not find the current legal definition to be...great. For some of the reasons I've already discussed.

Fine, though. If we look at Dan and Jaekyung's first time together, it could very likely count as imitative-rape by Korean law's standards. Imitative-rape is defined as when a person "by means of violence and intimidation, inserts his or her sexual organ into another's bodily part (excluding a genital organ), such as mouth or anus, or inserts his or her finger or other bodily part (excluding a genital organ) or any instrument into another's genital organ or anus." Yes, Dan does agree to have sex with Jaekyung for money, but let's not forget that Dan saw Jaekyung slam some other dude's head into the wall before this, that Jaekyung forces Dan from his shower and throws him to the bed, and that Jaekyung threatens to hurt Dan at least twice during their first time together. To me that seems like a substantial amount of direct violence and intimidation at play as well. And then, of course, Jaekyung puts his penis in Dan's ass.

Under Korean law yeah, maybe things after this point wouldn't legally count as rape anymore, but this first instance seems...indisputable to me.

Right?? This is what I'm talking about. Their law is somewhat idk how to explain. Have you seen the indecent act,have you read that? https://resourcehub.bakermckenzie.com/en/resources/fighting-domestic-violence/asia/south-korea/topics/1legal-provisions

Also, sorry, Domosama...I know you don't believe that only people versed in the law can determine what someone gets to call their experience. If I went through a non-consensual experience with someone else, would I not be able to say I was sexually assaulted or raped? Just because I didn't go to a lawyer about it first? If I talked to you about it, would you really tell me that I couldn't call what happened to me by its name just because I didn't go to court for it? Would you say that YOU couldn't call it such just because you weren't sure about the legalities?

What I don't like is people giving judgement easily without researching the impact of the issue or the topic. That was why I said that Rape is not a simple issue to talk about without the full knowledge of the law. It's a sensitive topic. Every state,every country's law is different. The Law can judge us, but we cannot judge the Law. This issue is about the word RAPE, I'm not saying it's about jk or what he did to Dan. I also brought the topic regarding the reader who commented about Toxin, saying there's no rape in there while there's rape in jinx. To remind other readers that rape is not a joke that is sweet like a cake. I even said that Jk did not respect Dan regarding that matter. Now you know the difference between the law of your country and the law of south Korea.
Dan can also not sue jk because both of them will go to jail. I'm not bringing the Law here to imprison jk or to be his lawyer,but to let other readers know that before we judge,we should know what the law says.
I read the manhwa WAREHOUSE where ml kidnapped, imprisoned,and raped mc. The ml surrendered in the police,but mc burned the warehouse. The evidence was burned together with the warehouse,so the ml was not sentenced. The police freed him, because there was no evidence and testimony of the mc. Testimonies and witnesses are one of the biggest factors to sentence the perpetrator. However, even if there are witnesses but if the victim refused to give his or her testimonies, especially when the victim is not a minor,then it's hard to pursue the case.
I really pity Dan. If not because of his life circumstances,he won't go to jk and sold his body. If not because of poverty,if not because of that doctor who banned him from getting a decent job in the hospital,if not because of his grandma's illness,and if not because of those bully loan sharks,Dan won't met jk in the first place. I'm not blaming Dan,not even judging him for his decision. Jinx is not just about how jk treated Dan wrongly/poorly,but also their life circumstances.
And also,I did not said that, I don't believe that only people versed in the law can determine what someone gets to call their experience. The law is a guide. And people should not judge easily or made a joke about the word rape. Ofc,if Dan said that he was raped by Jk,jk should be deemed accountable.


Akaito, do you believe in superstition or in science?

“it’s the author’s wish” yeah and it’s natural to wonder about the intention of the author when they include certain things in their story??? and what they might’ve been trying to say or do when including that thing, if anything???

Do you really think the people coming here calling Jaekyung a rapist are doing it as a joke? Do you really think they’re not taking the issue seriously? Do you think just because they didn’t go out of their way to research Korean law specifically—which would likely also call what Dan went through a type of rape—they’re coming in here not knowing what they’re talking about or taking the word “rape” lightly? Domosama, I doubt that even YOU knew about the legal definition under Korean law until now, and I know the other people arguing that was Jaekyung does to Dan certainly didn’t have any legal basis from which to stand on. So are we all full of shit or not?

Also I’ve brought up several times how the law can and often does fail people. You absolutely can and should judge the law. So many people do not come forward about being raped precisely because the law and the people enforcing it fails them. This discussion is just one very very very narrow example of how the law is not an absolute authority, at all. Or do I have to go to extremes again to prove my point?

The people who are arguing that what Jaekyung does to Dan is rape are operating on the very simple and straightforward principle that no means no, and that any sexual activity done without someone’s consent is nonconsensual—therefore rape or sexual assault. Again, it isn’t and never was about the law specifically. To be frank yeah maybe both of them would go to jail, but honestly, the law would probably be more on Jaekyung’s side for several reasons. Or rather, this so-called objective thing you keep calling the law could easily be bent or negated in his favor given his money and status. This whole discussion as of now IS about whether or not what Jaekyung does to Dan is consensual or not so I really don’t get your point.

Yeah if the situation were something more complex like what we see in Toxin then there could be a more fleshed out conversation about the dynamics between Dan and Jaekyung and each of them as characters, but here as in with many other things in this webtoon, there’s not actually much nuance to be parsed from the situation. With Toxin and the messiness of MCs and Garon’s relationship you can talk about who actually has the upper hand in the situation at any given moment, for example, and how the two are impacting each other. Where is any of that with Jinx? All Dan does is endure Jaekyung’s selfish whims. He’s never shown to have any leverage over Jaekyung at any point in season 1 at least—it’s all on Jaekyung’s terms. Dan doesn’t even ever attempt anything underhanded like Toxin’s MC does. Yeah the webtoon might not have meant to be about how poorly Jawkyung treats Dan but it’s not my fault that that’s literally almost all we see for the first 50+ chapters of the story.