What happened to reading for enjoyment? Dan x JK ain't it but shit ain't real. Why can't p...

Again, stop making assumptions. I'm not thinking what you say I'm thinking. Yes, the media has influenced people to harm others. However, an author has the right to create their own world. That's why toxic manhwas are only for adults who can handle the subject matter. They're not for children and they're not for those who will get triggered and be mentally and emotionally harmed by the story. From what I have read so far, I think you feel triggered by Jinx in some way. Since certain elements seem to bother you so much, you should consider why you are even reading it :)

I’m making assumptions because you’re not clearly and directly answering any questions I’ve asked you. I’m not talking about people who are mentally and emotionally harmed by a story because it deals with triggering subject matters. I’m not talking about a teen rape victim reading Jinx and being unable to cope with what they’re reading because it hits too close to home for them. I am talking about people like the adult police officers who refer to and treat young black boys as grown men because so much of society, including the media that that society produces, tells them that black people, regardless of age, are dangerous. I am talking about the minstrel shows where white people were (and still DO, to this day) smear black makeup on their skin and put on a “black accent” and “act black.” That used to be a very popular form of entertainment. I am once again asking you—is this morally justifiable to you? Why or why not?

Those subjects have nothing to do with this manhwa. You are trying to bring up all the problems in society, which is ridiculous because this isn't a sociology class. There's many problems in society which may or may not have been influenced by the media. What I said before about readers heeding the warning, especially those who feel they would be triggered by Jinx and thus experience mental or emotional harm, IS the important point. The other points you made are not applicable to this story at all. If you can't stay on topic, then there's nothing more to say.

You’re the one deviating from the topic because I was never talking about readers who experience mental and/or emotional harm from being triggered by the story! Obviously people should heed the warning label and not read things that are going to severely trigger them! There is nowhere where I said that that isn’t true and nowhere where I was even talking about that! You keep bringing it up when it was never what I was talking about to begin with!

These things DO have to do with the manhwa! I said I took issue with the specific subsection of people who read this manhwa and somehow come to the conclusion that there’s no rape in it because I think it can be (and has in some cases clearly proven to be) reflective of their real world attitudes towards consent/rape! Your argument against me was that things that appear in fiction cannot at all be harmful in real life, and that people’s opinions on what is being depicted cannot at all reflect their real life opinions on those things! My argument against that are the many examples in which both the media itself perpetuates harmful narratives against certain groups of people, and how those harmful narratives end up resulting in real world harm! Your argument against that now is “well people who are triggered by this content shouldn’t read it” YOU’RE the one going somewhere else entirely! Why can’t you just say that minstrelsy is bad, jjnbv?

The minstrel show or minstrelsy is a popular entertainment before,thanks to civil rights movement that it lost its popularity. This show is disrespectful, insulting and mocking black and black- American people. It viewed the American's perspective towards black people. Whites viewed blacks as slaves, buffoons and actually,no offense meant, it's better to be a rat at that time because they did not treat rats the way they treat the blacks . Why we have to be divided by colors? We are born this way, it's not like it's our fault for having this color. By the way, I'm a brown asian. Color is not a matter to me because we're all humans.

I'm killing myself, trying to explain this to him/her with my horrible english and at the end his/her only answers are : "u didn't answer my question" or "u didn't give me a straight argument". Once you say what u said jjjnbv, I don't think there's something else to add excep if you're playing with ppl's time like Akaito. Now I'm beginning to think Akaito has some serious essues. He/she has the time to write 7TEXTS and TEXTS I personally don't have time to read bc of his/her many deviating topics at the end I find myself debating about everything except this manhwa.

I cannot imagine comparing jinx with the minstrel show, because, first,the minstrel show was made to entertain whites while disrespecting, insulting and mocking blacks. Second,it was the view of real people towards real people. It's like me insulting and disrespecting my fellow reader. And lastly, there's no moral value or awareness because it's purely to entertain the whites while degrading the blacks.. Even if jinx shows toxicity at least it gives awareness and moral values. It only not entertain the readers but it also educates us that this events can be happened in real life if we 1.) have no choice,no one to rely on 2.) don't know the person that is helping us. 3.) don't value the people who are genuine to us ( Dan being genuine to jk ). 4.) if we treat people poorly they will leave us ( jk to his teammates). It also educates us that not only women can be SAed. Jinx is not portraying one particular group of people as well,it portrayed every individual who are with same status as Kim Dan.

Yeah the reason why we're going beyond this manhwa is because I do not care about this manhwa in and of itself. I am not triggered by it, I do not think it in and of itself perpetuates widespread societal harm, I do not think it shouldn't exist, I do not think most readers reading the manhwa are horrible and sick human beings just because they're reading it and find Jakeyung hot or whatever. I care about the bigger questions and conversations it raises, like "what is the definition of consent" or "what do wealthy people owe to society" or "does fiction reflect or impact reality," which is the one you guys specifically keep going. Because you keep going there, I then have to respond to that (the answer: it's more complicated than just "fiction exists in a pure vacuum and has nothing to say about reality" or "fiction directly reflects reality," it's a nuanced conversation) and I have to use other, more extreme examples because when I try to talk about Jinx by itself, you guys don't seem to get what I'm saying, and/or blatantly walk around the point I'm trying to get at. Maybe I haven't been explaining myself well enough, but when I'm going for these examples that seem periphery to the topic/conversation at hand, the point is that I am going to link it back to the conversation and/or the webtoon in some way. Goodness gracious.

And for the record your English isn't horrible and I don't think that we're having the misunderstandings we're having because of it. I can understand you just fine. It's simply that I heavily disagree with you a lot of the time.

If you don't care about this manhwa, I actually don't know why I'm talking to you then ^^' I want to talk about the characters, the story with sentences like "if he didn't /do that..." I don't question myself as you do because I don't read this to rack my brain about social problems or whatever... I don't know why, in 2024, we still ask this question of "does fiction impacts reality?"... This fiction is made for grown ppl that know the difference, it's like you're still saying that the music of Maryline Manson (that the killers were listening) caused the Colombine massacre...

I too would like to talk about the webtoon but alas, there are people who seem to be displaying flawed definitions of consent, and I find it important to address that kind of thing. Like I said you don’t have to read into the sociological problems that I think the webtoon is presenting if you don’t want to, but you can’t then say I’m wrong for pointing those things out. I think they’re interesting things to talk about alongside the characters and their motivations and stuff like that and like yeah, again, for me it’s hard to Not read those things into the story because they seem so foundational to its events and characters.

Like…would Dan have really ended up with someone like Jaekyung if he wasn’t so poor? Would Jaekyung be as abusive as he is if he didn’t have the wealth and status to get away with it? What would happen if you swapped their positions? Would Dan use his money and power to get revenge against all the people who’ve wrong him? Would he use people the way Jaekyung does? Or would Dan just keep to spending his money to make himself and his grandma happy and comfortable? And Jaekyung—would he be able to stand Dan’s living conditions? Would he make the same choices? Would he do something different? Etc etc.

Anyway yeah, fiction doesn’t have a one to one relationship with reality—the way it interacts with reality is complex! I’m someone who loves video games, I know all about the “violent video games make people violent” moral panic, I am absolutely not delusional enough to think “violent video games make people go kill people in real life.” But the fact is that fiction can and does reflect reality in some way. It can challenge reality, it can comment on that reality, or it can reiterate that reality. And everyone comes to stories with their own background knowledge and beliefs and biases and shit.

Yes YOU may have a strong understanding of consent, for example, and you may be able to see one or multiple bad portrayals of consent/varying portrayals of nonconsent and not have your mind changed. But there are people—not just kids or teens, but also full grown adults, obviously—who don’t have that strong a grasp on those things, who were never taught the right things, who believe the wrong things. When THOSE people then interact with something that portrays nonconsent as being consensual when it really isn’t—THOSE people might then come away from it thinking that that’s how consent is supposed to work, because they literally do not have any other model to work from. Or they might already have a bad model and this other bad model might only serve to confirm the bad model that they already have.

There are so many examples of this kind of thing happening in real life! Grown adults! Not just teens or children! Who were fed narratives about certain things all throughout their lives and came to believe those narratives, even though they weren’t true, because they didn’t know any better, they didn’t have any exposure to the truth. Again going back to the race/racism example, you will hear lots of stories about straight up KKK members who, because they had like, no exposure to black people whatsoever outside of things their racist families and racist neighbors and racist MEDIA said about black people, end up adopting those same views. It’s multifaceted and I’m not here to act like it isn’t.

But those people’s minds changed/could be changed in a variety of different ways. Often times it’s through getting to know/interacting with a black person and realizing, hey, this person is chill. Maybe what I thought was wrong all along. But sometimes it IS engaging with art or media in general that portrays black people in a more humanizing and nuanced light.

Domosama, I just want to thank you for taking me at face value. I genuinely appreciate that you're willing to engage directly with what I'm saying.

jjnbv and Shiki and the like have been making the argument that fiction cannot impact reality at all, and that people's reactions to that fiction cannot ever reflect their real life views on the real life things that the fiction might be portraying. In discussing minstrel shows, which was a form of fiction/entertainment/media (theater, specifically), my point was to show that fiction and entertainment CAN impact reality, and that people's reactions to that fiction and entertainment CAN reflect their real life views. You've correctly pointed out how harmful minstrel shows are in what they portray, and how the people who created those shows and portrayed black people in them reflects what they actually thought of black people at the time. You also brought up how the shows lost popularity due to the civil rights movement—this was because as people gradually came to realize that black people are, in fact, people, and that the shows were saying things that they no longer believed + things that were harmful to perceptions of black people, people stopped watching them as much.

So I'm sure we can agree that people creating minstrel shows were probably very racist, and it's unlikely that they were actually secretly trying to critique harmful portrayals of black people. I'm sure we can also agree that, while people are free to create whatever fiction/entertainment they want, creating something like a minstrel show, even if it's a completely fictional portrayal of a black person, isn't great, and it’s generally be better if it didn’t happen. It may not be illegal, it may not be the case that the person making it should go to jail for it, but it doesn't mean that they're doing something that is completely neutral when they do that. We can, and should, critique them for creating it—and if not the person themselves, we absolutely can and should critique and contextualize what the work itself suggests.

I will add the things I am saying with regards to audience interpretation as well. I am sure you and I today could watch a minstrel show and recognize and acknowledge that it's horrifically racist. And I'll be honest—I might even laugh at it, not because I think it's genuinely funny or because it makes me happy, necessarily, but because I'd find it so ridiculous and horrible that I have no choice but to laugh, or it circles back around to being funny. There might even be elements of those shows we genuinely like, like. Idk. Maybe one of the performers is a really strong vocalist. These are not something to be concerned about. Our watching of the minstrel show indeed does not automatically make us racist.

What WOULD be concerning is if someone watched the minstrel show...and came away from it thinking that it was true to life. If they watched it and thought "yes, that really is how black people are,” that would obviously be concerning, right? There are really only three options there—that person is joking, that person has never interacted with a black person before and/or hasn’t seen any other representations of black people before and therefore doesn’t know any better, or that person is blatantly racist. Two of these are worrying! And yes, we can wish the minstrel show just didn’t exist, period, but the fact is that it already exists—fine. But it would be responsible for us to point out how and why the show isn’t good, because, yes, as it turns out, there are people who WOULD watch that kind of thing and not immediately understand those things.

So what does this have to do with Jinx? Well, again, as I’ve been saying, I am concerned with a specific subsection of fans who come at the webtoon and outright deny there is rape depicted in it. Not just a surface level thing—but like when you ask them WHY they think there’s no rape, their reasoning demonstrates a flawed understanding of consent, even as they factor in (or outright ignore) things that happen in the webtoon. They will try to go by the definition of rape, they will bring up the contract, or they will bring up the “no means yes” trope in yaoi (and romance in general, which I’m willing to have a conversation about, with some caveats). They will often use the very same victim-blaming rhetoric that people use against real life victims of rape.

I do not think Jinx in and of itself is the issue here, although there are discussions to be had about how things are framed…but similarly to the minstrel example, there’s only a few possible options for how that person is really thinking. Either they are joking around/speaking lightly of it when they otherwise wouldn’t, or they do not know any better, or they are a blatant rape apologist. And personally I tend to elect for the first two options rather than the latter…hence why I tend to ask people to give me their definition of consent (or provide them my own), and then ask how they’re reading the manhwa to have not seen that definition being violated.

I care about these types of things because I simply care about people. I want people to be able to recognize these types of situations for what they are. I want them to be able to keep themselves safe. I want them, if they’re unfortunate enough to go through something like this, to not blame themselves for what happened, and to not listen to the people that WOULD blame them for what happened. And of course I don’t want them to approach someone else who’s gone through something like this to say or do something that would be harmful to them. That’s really all.

(PS sorry for the long responses, I’m really trying to make myself clear and avoid any misunderstandings…)

I get you babe,when we were still children we dreamt on becoming superheroes like superman,spiderman,etc..or we dreamt to be a princess like Cinderella, sleeping beauty and snow white. Those are our childhood dreams because of the fictional characters we've seen on t.v or the big screen or in socmed. Anime's like Haikyu encourages us to play volleyball. So somehow,I can say that fictions also plays a role or impact in our lives. Sometimes it serves as inspirations and motivations. Depends on how we see and understand it. I saw a documentation in America where a child killed his playmate because he saw something like that on t.v. You see,if we let something to our minds it will affect our lives.


And about the consent, actually I think I gave a hint about this in one of my previous replies ( legally). I googled it since to be fair by law.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_consent_in_law#

There are many definitions of consent but I googled sexual consent since it's about this topic. Maybe we have different perspective about consent since we're living in different countries. Mostly in Asia there's an age limit,if you happen to involve your self in a sexual act with a woman below the age limit you can be sued for statutory rape. They are still minors who are incapable of giving consent. Adults,if they are mentally deprived ( those with mental problems),drunk or was drugged.

Maybe we have different understanding and perspective because our laws are not different but yours are some kind of broaden(?), correct me if I'm wrong. I can see a lot of comments like " why do Koreans romanticize the act of rape", " Why this kind of thing is always in my fave manhwa". Be it in bl or straight. Asians will see it as adults playing that scene and nothing else since the involves are two adults. As long as no force or threat was shown. If the other one is minor then I promise you that all will react. Maybe the reason why Asians will say "do not read this if you're uncomfortable" is because of that.


I'm sorry if my comments offended you in some aspects. I assure you that I understand what you want to say,your message. I'm also happy to share my thoughts with you

I don't really think you're getting what I'm saying with regards to fiction or media more broadly impacting people. It's not limited to just kids. We talk all the time about full grown adults who get scammed by emails and phone calls because they think it's real and they don't know better, for example. I can talk about the queerphobia and transphobia that exists in American media right now and how, even though people are spreading falsehoods, people are buying into those lies—those fictions—and it's leading them into being (more) homophobic and (more) transphobic. But I'm frankly tired of explaining this. I just hope you don't think you've become magically immune to believing misinformation just because you're an adult...

I mean personally I was not/haven't been talking about the legal definition of rape/consent and whether or not Jaekyung could/should go to jail. And I'm sure it's the case over there as well as over here that there are tons of cases of people who do not go to jail despite having committed what many people would fully consider to be rape, and that happens for a variety of reason.

But I'm curious. Are you saying people wouldn't consider it rape between two adults if one of the adults says no to sex and the other person forces them to do it anyway?

Your English is fine, I especially loved that one comment you made above that I noted and replied to :) I agree there's nothing for me to add to Akaito's reply because, once again, the comment went off-topic and I'm not wasting my time with that. From what I've read, you and me and others can try to explain forever and Akaito will not understand the actual point we are making when it comes to this manhwa, or will make incorrect assumptions about what we are saying/meaning. It's very apparent that this reader has issues with separating fiction from reality.

Good morning Akaito. About what's happening in America I'm sorry for that but like I said I am an Asian. In my country it's okay to be what you are if you're a trans,queer,brown,white or black. I thought the fiction we're talking is the same but I guess that yours is kinda deep. Fictions is literature in the form of prose that describes imaginary events and people. We start imagining when we were young to be like super heroes or princesses,and then when we became adults it depends on us on how we understand and see things. It depends on our perspective.

And about consent,I don't want to give false definition of it. Like what you said,you are tired of people giving you false definitions. It will only lead to misunderstanding and argumentation. It's better to ask what is the right definition of it. And about your question, it's not my personal opinion. Even if you research the jurisdiction and laws of Asian countries,you will search about age of consent and statutory rape,and the terms for adults. Like I said,and is obvious in the link I sent,SEX WITH FORCE AND THREAT is considered rape. You need to contest the force and/or threat to call it rape. Aside from force and threat, deception is also considerable,but you need to clarify clearly how you were deceived.

You will find not search( sorry).

I mean there’s many types of fiction and they all aim to do varying different things—I am using a broad definition of it (as in not just literature but also TV shows, movies, games, etc, but also any other type of media that is ultimately fictitious, as in, imaginary in nature, hence why I also loop in things like articles and news reports even though those might operate differently than a book lol). Jinx is clearly doing something different than, say, pieces of post-colonial literature like Things Fall Apart or Augustown (both really good books) but in both cases yeah you can read and analyze them from a variety of different lenses. And I agree, people will interpret things based on their own perspectives, and a wide variety of things can influence that perspective.

Also my bad I think I misread your original comment lmao it seemed like you were saying that as long as it’s two adults it’s always seen as being consensual or rape wouldn’t/couldn’t be tried but yes you did talk about force/incapacitation/deception. I mean then I’m curious what you think about that question of whether or not there’s any rape depicted in the webtoon. Also since those other guys seem to have disengaged for now, what do you think about these questions about how/why Dan and Jaekyung act the way they do based on their economic classes + would they act differently if their roles were switched.

Good afternoon Akaito,I just wanna clarify my words in my previous comment. I NEVER SAID that as long as it's two adults it's always seen as being consentual or rape wouldn't/couldn't tried. WHAT I SAID IS "Maybe we have different understanding and perspective because our laws are not different but yours are some kind of broaden(?), correct me if I'm wrong. I can see a lot of comments like " why do Koreans romanticize the act of rape", " Why this kind of thing is always in my fave manhwa". Be it in bl or straight. ASIANS WILL SEE IT AS ADULTS PLAYING THAT SCENE AND NOTHING ELSE SINCE THE INVOLVES ARE TWO ADULTS. AS LONG AS NO FORCE OR THREAT WAS SHOWN.a


Adults can also deemed incapable of consenting,such as being unconscious, intoxicated, drugged, mentally and physically disabled. I think I also added this in my previous comments. In my previous comments,I also said that let's review Dan's capability and incapability when he agreed to jk. Is Dan a minor, mentally and physically disabled, unconscious, intoxicated,and/or drugged?.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_consent_in_law#


If jk did not involved himself with Dan,would Dan's life more peaceful and happy? Would opportunity like what jk gave him come to him if jk did not involved himself with him? Dan suffered from extreme poverty, desperation, stressed and depression. He was almost raped by a hospital director and lost his opportunity to work in the hospital. The director wasn't even punished as he said. The loan sharks were there always to bully and beat him? Milking him money every month. His grandma was in the hospital.

How Dan would survive all these without jk's help? Dan even asked himself if he have to be choosy right now. If you were Dan would you make the same decision as him and go to jk? Or would you still choose to live the same way and face those loan sharks everyday while being beaten by them? If you were Dan how would you survive that situation he's in without jk in the picture? Do you think those loan sharks is not after Dan's body? What happened when jk witnessed Dan's situation when he went to Dan's house and saw the loan sharks there? Is Dan's life with jk is more miserable than when he was in the streets doing 3-4 jobs?