This is the most perfect explanation rape in yaoi. You're completely right.
I would add that to condemn rape in yaoi on the basis that it is problematic in a misogynist society actually PLAYS INTO misogynistic culture. Yaoi is created by women for women to satisfy a psychological need specific to women. Allowing fear of misogynist society to drive you to condemn it and thereby further limiting women's freedom of expression gives power to rape culture, not the other way around.
Thank you
Excellent point. To ostracize what is a universal female sexual fantasy is to perpetuate misogyny; it is to force women in the shadows, to essentially silence women's sexual expression.
I definitely agree about the demonization. I'd simply say, no kink shaming. You also mentioned that mature, sophisticated, creative readers would be able to make the distinction between real life and fictional. Yes. But not liking romanticized rape does not necessarily mean not being able to make the distinction. I feel like it also needs to be made clear that not liking romanticized rape does not necessarily mean condescension. Does not necessarily mean demonization. It can simply mean that some tropes can be tiring and that you can have whatever you want in your fantasy but I like seeing a bit of reason (or if not I actually also like artistic absurdity, and nope, not necessarily satire) in mine. Why? Well not because I'm thinking that it will be used as a "How to act in the real world 101" module but because I appreciate an author's skill in observation and reason as much as I do imagination.
Oh but, yes, please do preach on people who demonize and thus limit the flexibility of Yaoi.
(word count: "necessarily" - 199)
"not liking romanticized rape does not necessarily mean not being able to make the distinction"
this might be true in your case.. but have you read various comments about rape every time the manga touches the subject ??
OVER AND OVER AGAIN,,, they keep saying things like "those who likes rape is disgusting.. rape is never okay.., rape shouldn't be romanticized because it brings only pain and suffering to the victims,.."
if you read this statements that always appear each time an author incorporate the "rape" theme in their works,,, can you REALLY SAY THAT THEY CAN MAKE DISTINCTION..???
these people seem to appear always.. never fails to amuse me actually.. because it is obvious that they confuse reality and fantasy.. anyways, i just want to point it out there...
I know. I feel you. I feel the frustration. That's why I repeatedly used "not necessarily" because I can't speak for everyone. I can't say they can definitely make the distinction so I never said so. But while we may be both frustrated by these people you pointed out, I have another frustration which is why I commented what I did. That is that a lot of people, and I'm not saying the person explaining at the top is one but the topic reminded me, assume too much, and a lot of times erroneously, about simple comments. Either they're just really black and white or just don't bother to think through yet bother to immediately "speak". A person says he/she doesn't like something and they just assume that person condemns that thing or likes the exact opposite or the like.
Sure, it's fine to not like it. We don't all share the same needs. But if it's not for you, then close the tab and move on. Because it IS necessarily demonization and condescension to preach at the "sinners." That is not cool.
I was not preaching. Come on. That's why I supported the person at the top on what she said about demonization. I was clarifying not liking does not mean demonization. I'm sorry, I don't think you're getting what I've been saying. I was not saying those people who are "preaching to the sinners" are not demonizing. Because, YES, "it IS necessarily demonization and condescension to preach at the 'sinners'". I was saying some people get mistakenly caught up and dragged in with other people's perception of these self-righteous people. Also, I didn't even say anything about anything I'm staying to read that I do not like so what is this about closing the tab and moving on. Not liking does not mean blindly rejecting so I also try to read. But it can often get to a point that I do close the tab and move on, only sometimes I see an interesting topic and feel the urge to express an opinion. I don't think I'm not allowed to when I'm doing it with respect.
Not liking does not mean demonization. I agree with that but tags are here for a reason so, people should stop reading mangas just because they are yaoi genre and look at the tags before complaining. When you buy some food you always look at the ingredients no?
Thank you for the explanation. I hope people will read your post and maybe they will understand a little bit more about rape, yaoi and everything else.
Woah. That was fairly well written. Nice job.
I completely agree with you that not liking a particular trope does not mean you are not a mature or creative reader. My commentary, as I mentioned, specifically addresses those readers that do not make a distinction between reality and fiction and that erroneously apply morality to romanticized rape even though the trope is not meant to be measured thus, and engage in shaming the trope and the readers that do like it; it also addresses the hypocrisy of readers that despite continuously denigrating the trope, continue to read stories with romanticized rape in them, because they obviously like it, but use it as the perfect opportunity to feel self-righteous or morally superior to others, and if you will notice, in many instances, an element of mob mentality is also involved.
I totally understand that there are sexual tastes for everyone, and that not all of us like the same things but not liking and denigrating are two separate things; liking or not such kinks has nothing to do with moral fiber or intellectual capacity. It is as simple as whether you prefer chocolate, vanilla or both. Kink shaming is unacceptable, but most especially because the different sexual kinks in Yaoi specifically lie in the realm of women sexuality. To kink shame in these forums is to suppress women's sexual expression, and women have been suppressed enough in history as it is. I've always found it ironic that such Yaoi readers have the gall to act self-righteous and judgmental towards fellow readers when engaging in a Yaoi forum out of all places! LOL! The genre itself is considered deviant, which makes all of us deviants in the eyes of society, but with different kinks. To act morally superior when you already like Yaoi is indeed ludicrous, yet we see it all the time.
Thank you and everyone else that have taken the time read my lengthy commentary and those that have engaged in the discussion. I think the topic is very relevant and has merit :)
I really wish I could explain that well.i have seen many times your explanation are always to the point .Which I am very envious .I can't even convey properly what I want to say It always came out something else because of my poor English .I respect you .
Kin, I don't think Anon was telling you to close the tab and move on from this discussion, I think that she/he is following on the train of thought that if a reader doesn't like stories with rape, as soon as they see the rape tag in the manga, that they should close it and move on. I also don't think that she/he means that people shouldn't voice their opinion, after all there are many things that interests us and we like to share our thoughts and engage in stimulating discussions; but I also think that there is a distinct difference between those that just do it to demonize or kink shame as you nicely put it, and those that are actually interested in honest exchange of ideas or are just making an objective observation or even heartfelt point. But again, I really don't think Anon was telling you to "shut it", but was instead referring about the "demonizers" we are discussing here.
Thank you for explaining it better. English is not my first language so, I couldn't explain it as well as you did. You're right about difference between polite discussion and demonizing
a manga. There are some readers who gets triggered and say very rude things to both mangaka and fellow readers which usually leads up to extremely long and ugly arguments, when I said people should pay attention to tags I meant those people not the ones who can engage in intriguing discussions.
Oh, ok. I'm sorry for misunderstanding. I got confused with the anons or, if you were the same person, the shift in conversation. Also because it was a reply to me so I thought it was directed to me as well.
Thank you. I sincerely appreciate you having typed this up. I feel like there are way too many people who misunderstand and are not correctly drawing the line between fantasy and reality. And this helps clarify that. Furthermore, in this particular story, the uke clarified multiple times that he was indeed not raped by Eiji. He makes a point that if he really wanted to refuse him, he could've. Especially when Eiji warned him beforehand that the next time he saw him, he was going to rape him. Moreover, Shunichi opened the door for Eiji multiple times. Which goes to show, if he really had wanted to refuse, he had option of doing so, yet he didn't. Thus, I don't understand why some people go to the length of creating a comment about romanticized rape. Yes, people are entitled to their own opinions. However, they take it way too far sometimes.
Thank you, Nemunemu for your kind sentiment :)
“Me Thinks the Lady Doth Protest Too Much” is my commentary on the demonization of romanticized rape in fiction and the potential hypocrisy of the reader in the closet. Just very recently I participated in a thread where a fellow reader was complaining about the offensiveness of the vitriol directed at yaoi stories with romanticized rape and the readers that like it, and after going through the barrage of negative comments in this manga’s forum, of which some have gotten really ugly, I have to say that my perspective has somewhat shifted and I can better appreciate her/his viewpoint. All of this negativity brings to mind C. Wright Mill’s “Sociological Imagination” about how people live trapped in their own bubbles without understanding history, themselves and the world around them.
It seems that a lot of readers confidently opine on “rape” in yaoi but most of those comments show a lack of understanding of the yaoi genre itself, and to a great extent of even themselves and the reasons why they enjoy Yaoi to begin with. There seems to be a huge misunderstanding in the yaoi community in how rape is depicted and how, depending on the context, is supposed to be interpreted. Rape in Yaoi is situational as it may be presented in the context of either“real life rape” or “romanticized rape” with varying quality of execution. The romanticized rape trope demands suspension of disbelief and disassociation with real life morality. It is not prescriptive of rape or condoning rape, because Yaoi NEVER condones real life rape, it is simply a trope in the romance genre that caters to a universal female fantasy of being seduced (preferably forcefully) and sexually dominated by their target alpha male. The reader is not supposed to apply real life morality to this trope, because it has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with a sexual fantasy.
Modern sensibility towards real life rape within misogynistic cultures compels us to demonize the rape trope in fiction, becoming a sort of “intellectual” imperative to be critical of it (even if we enjoy the trope), irrespective of actual intellectual depth; something that very unfortunately has shamed women that enjoy the romance genre into the closet by contemporary society for fear of being branded with the scarlet letter as “internalized misogynists”. However, I would argue there is no shame in the trope because it is fiction, nothing but an individual preference like anything else that bears no relevance on one’s moral or intellectual constitution. I understand that the concern of real life rape is a very serious issue and a lot of people have difficulty separating that from the stories they read, but nevertheless it must be done. Mature, sophisticated or creative readers have no problem making this distinction, separating reality from fiction, understanding that even though real life may reflect on fiction, it is not the responsibility of fiction to conform to real life, otherwise, it wouldn’t serve as an effective form of human escapism.
Comments such as “I do not like rape” in yaoi or romance genre forums can be interpreted as not only misguided and self-serving, but derogatory indeed, because it is implying that there are yaoi readers that “like” or “condone” rape, when it is accurate to say that NO yaoi reader (or mentally healthy readers in general) likes or condones rape; only rapists like and condone rape; therefore, such comments are indeed redundant because *emphasis on word* NOBODY likes rape. However, there are a multitude of readers that do enjoy romanticized rape in fiction, which is why is still widely used across genres. We don’t think of those that enjoy slash in horror as “internalized mass murderers” do we? Or that someone is condoning “gruesome murder” for liking the tropes in slash; logically, liking romanticized rape in fiction does not mean condoning rape in real life, again, because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
My reference to Shakespeare’s “Methink the Lady Doth Protest Too Much” underlines some of those judgmental readers that emphatically demonize both the trope and those that openly enjoy it; those readers that time after time continue to erroneously apply morality to stories framed with romanticized rape, even though they are not supposed to, because again, it is a trope with pre-established rules that demand suspension of disbelief and real life morality; but specifically, it emphasizes the potential hypocrisy at play, the fact that the same readers (some of whom are vitriolic) that continue to disparage the trope, that despite their judgmental attitude and continued expressions of disapproval, they still continue to read Yaoi stories with romanticized rape in them; an indication that far from hating the common yaoi trope as they emphatically profess, they actually like it. Otherwise, it is illogical for them to continue to read the same type of stories or authors that are known to use the trope if they actually hate it so much; after all, there are multiples ways of knowing what a story is about before engaging with it, whether by checking the tags on the manga or by browsing the comments from other readers; Case in point, people disparaging this story as “rape crap” when it’s clearly tagged with Sadahiro Mika as one of its authors/contributors, a mangaka known for consistently using rape (in both contexts) in her stories. Since romanticized rape is such a fundamental prevalent aspect of Yaoi, it would better serve such readers to stick to shounen-ai or authors that rarely use the trope, read the tags and comments, but contrary to such common sense, those readers continue to gravitate towards stories with romanticized rape. Again, if indeed they hate it so much, why continue reading it? After spending so much time in the forums, one starts to recognize fellow users, with those hiding behind the veil of Anonymous making it more difficult to ascertain.
And I suspect those that are more on the vitriolic side are the ones that enjoy romanticized rape the most, and their belligerence arises from their dissonance between liking the trope and societal pressure, or pressure to make themselves look “intellectual” or even conscientious, when their very action of applying morality to something that it’s not supposed to be, shows their lack of knowledge on the subject, that they in fact don’t understand the Yaoi genre, its origin and the different tropes that construct it or worst, that they don’t even understand themselves. Romanticized rape in fiction holds absolutely no moral value, it does not convey any type of prescriptive morality, it has nothing to do with moral fiber or intellectual depth, as its only purpose is to cater to the female fantasy of sexual submission, and nothing more.