Ooofff. You put my ideas into words that is understandable and less offending lol. Yeah, before chp 15, JJ was evil for breaking up without reason or explaining, for getting angry, for engaging on another business or team, for not saying anything, aka not communicating. Ch 15, JJ was evil for the garage scene (understandable and rightly so). Post ch 15, JJ was evil for not mentioning Germany while they were together and after break up, for getting angry again and not saying anything again.
Ch 20 - proved he talks and says what needs to be said when they were together, how he was treated after communicating, so what is left is the garage scene - which was not the reason they broke up in the first place - it happened after. When the argument has always been what exactly lead to their break up in the first place.
Most people agreed they were in a toxic relationship that lacked communication and that they would be better off split than hurting each other more.
***There is NO justification for a partner assaulting you. It is just as serious as if it were someone you didn’t know. Most assaults are actually perpetrated by people the victim knows regardless. I think it’s unacceptable to write off how uncomfortably the whole thing was portrayed because the ‘character’ doesn’t care.***
Fiction is fiction, but an author conveniently adding in assault and then essentially saying that “it’s okay” because the CHARACTER doesn’t classify it as assault is a cheap way to absolve the character’s actions that are written by the author. I understand the mentality of treating characters like real people, but ultimately they are not. They are playthings of the author’s intent.
The only real person here is the author, who should be held accountable via criticism for their misuse of rape and assault in the work. The entirety of it was glorified non-con/dub-con content. If it were disclosed and made explicit, fine, but there was no content warning or viewer discretion advised, nor previous expectation of those elements in the story.
I think this mentality that “a character always implicitly gives consent” even in situations where they are depicted (purposefully) contrary to such, IS damaging. It also normalizes the internalization of such. If you empathize and are invested in said characters, it’s all the more reason to feel the injustice on their behalf. If Leo were real, I don’t think he would think “oh, well he (jj) beat himself up about RAPING me, I guess I need to comfort him.” It’s a horrifying way to interpret things.
Again, I think the author couldn’t care precisely because of the genre infamously using portrayals of unhealthy relationships and dubious consent, but I think personally, it’s way more telling of whether someone is chronically online and only exposed to BL when they say things like that justifying rape.
It’s really not about defending the right party in their fictional relationship at this point. Most rational people agreed that their relationship was unhealthy. They both contributed to this, it’s not a competition of who did what worse, and certainly not some kind of bet system where there is a winner for those who decided which character was the most in the wrong. I really hope you reconsider the way you view this kind of thing because the real-life implications are scary.
I used to think like this until I realised I am not owed an explanation why someone on the other side of the world thinks the way the way thinks. You are not correct just because you think it's bad. If a creator wants to depict something in a way you aren't comfortable with it's your job as the reader to either see it as what the creator is depicting it as or drop it if you ain't up for it. Calling everything aggressive rape devalues rape. It narrows down the definition of rape to just aggressive sexual activities that I don't like. The way rape is discussed by bl fans if often subjective which is not wrong but still hinders multidimensional perspective on the subject. Rape can also occur under very non-aggresive circumstances. The way sex is portrayed in east Asia also plays a role in why people who aren't from there often think it's rape. Traditionally the uke needs to be docile,meek, innocent and pure so them 'resisting' is a way of maintaining these. You can have your beliefs on what rape is but is there really a definitive way of determining what rape unless the victim calls it such and if they don't will you force them to say it is to sate your own need for validation for reading the situation as such when it may not be that for who you are trying to speak for?
Mmmm i agree with everything you said till the last part . To an extent some times people don’t see certain things as rape doesn’t mean it isnt and vice versa. You know how many young boys have been taken advantage of when they were younger because “thats what boys are suppose to do” yeah some countries may not see an issue with certain things doesnt make any less what it actually is. And vice versa so i agree but sometimes theres nothing wrong with calling out the bs of some of these stories.
Yes, those words definitely hurt but cruel? I don't think so. The fact that Leo blurted them out, did not regret a tad bit and even completely forgot about it just shows that he has low EQ. That's all. It's not assaulting or cruel. I rlly hope the author can shows his development regarding this aspect in next chapters (=・ω・=)
You can be cruel unintentionally too you know. Just cz someone has low EQ doesn't mean they can't harm with their words and actions
It devalues it more when it is normalized. I can understand to a certain extent the idea of futile resistance as a sort of dub/non-con material that someone might like, but when it is visibly a depiction of some rape fantasy fetish, where the character is degraded and objectified, I feel like it makes a story feel grossly pornographic without substance. And also, it is not your job as an unsuspecting reader to determine whether an author will include rape of any other assault in their work. That’s what content warnings are for, and they are meant to prevent people from being triggered or otherwise mentally affected at the imagery that is depicted whether it be considered as something serious by an author or nor. Just to note, I am asian so it’s not like I of all people wouldn’t understand the nuances of influences on media like gender roles, societal norms, and sexual safety. There is no explanation for why rape occurs, I don’t think there ever is. It’s not something justifiable. What you said about rape happening under a different multitude of circumstances is true, and it’s as you said in the story. It’s not portrayed as something inherently aggressive. It’s between two characters who are in an established relationship, having sex like they might do as usual, except the protagonist being assaulted is saying how “unlike” the usual circumstances are, characterized by an underlying hostility and aggression from his partner which is foreign, unpleasant and unwelcome. So many people in active relationships don’t recognize rape when it is perpetrated by their own partner because it’s hard to believe that someone that you know, trust, and love might seek out harm towards you. I don’t throw around classification of rape because I want to be right (god forbid), that’s a terrible outlook to have about people. I say it because I think it needs to be acknowledged. I’m not saying people aren’t allowed to enjoy a work because it includes unsavory or poor depictions of serious subjects. But I feel that critical analysis of text is important. I think people should see it how it is, which is sexual violence. And here, it is violent, it is rape.
JJ is frustrated by Leo’s immaturity as a person and emotionally, instead of communicating this, and other ways that his own partner has hurt him (all unintentionally), he let’s his resentment fester. This same resentment, which prompts him to WANT to hurt Leo, culminating in him ultimately raping him. It is an act of sexual violence born out of spite and resentment. He intended what he did, knowing how it would affect his own partner. You or anyone else can have other interpretations of what might’ve happened, but for me, my understanding is rape is sexually infringing on someone’s right to their bodily autonomy, done in an act of violence. I don’t care about being right or wrong, this isn’t about that. But things like this should be addressed. Their relationship hinders on very toxic foundations and are just a precursor to things like sexual violence (and other abuse) happening. I don’t think it should be normalized, and that is what happens when in works like these, it isn’t treated with the respect it deserves.
bro be fucking for real right now. the definition of rape does not just change spontaneously based on the victim’s reaction after the fact. some people only process and come to terms with the fact that they were raped years later. rape is rape no matter how “severe” it was, and no matter whether if the victim realized it immediately or not. to quote your reply, is it not rape to engage in “aggressive sexual activity” that the victim did not fully communicate his consent to? BFFR. to flat out deny that JJ raped leo is actually fucking preposterous. even HE would disagree with you.
EXACTLY. JJ CLEARLY behaved aggressively and violently towards leo because he wanted to hurt him. THAT IS RAPE. my god it’s actually pissing me off how yaoi brain rotted some people on this website are to flat out deny this and justify his behaviour.
be so fucking for real right now. this whole comment is a dumpster fire cause fym “rape is the only leg they have to stand on” HELLO??? is rape not an extremely concerning and harmful thing that people have the right to validly criticize? i think the chronically online yaoi brain teenage girl description fits you better with the way ur mad that people are pointing out that rape is bad and should not be just swept under the rug.
Thank you Like Jj clearly knew he was wrong for that which is why he apologized. Its crazy like the comment came off serious and then it came off like its just a webtoon don’t be so serious
These replies. It ended up talking and targeting one chapter/scene. It was not even the cause or start of the war in the comments since the series started. It was about why did JJ broke up with Leo and trying to find out why through Leo's POV. Was JJ justified in breaking up with Leo, especially the way he did it? That was what the war was about. And we readers are only getting answers now.
bffr the comments under this manhwa are not just debating “who was the main contributing factor to the breakup”, no matter how much u wanna lie and pretend that’s the case. they’re trashing on leo and acting like he’s the spawn of satan while treating JJ as a poor innocent baby, as if he’s not a grown adult who is responsible for his actions. the garage scene is absolutely something that is relevant to talk about because it reflects JJ’s true character, aka not the pitiful angelic victim yall paint him out to be. literally in the original comment to this thread the op says that “I get JJ wanting to hurt Leo cz I'd hurt him too”confessing that you would rape your partner because they weren’t a good boyfriend is actually psychotic. THESE are the kinds of yaoi brainrotted rape-desensitized comments that are trashing on leo and acting like JJ is perfect. not those fantasy intellectual debates ur on about. lmfao not u tryna pivot to try and trash people for bringing up the garage incident which yall are STILL tryna find ways to justify
It started with trashing JJ because he broke off and we dont know why because the POV was only on Leo's. We didn't have the full picture. We were all just basing off on Leo and figuring out why JJ was angry. Everything happened after the break up did not make sense why Leo would be hurt and JJ would be angry and hurt Leo. We don't have those answers. Whether Leo is spawn of satan or JJ is a fucking angel - we don't have concreate idea because the story was written that way. That was it is about. All the allegations that JJ never put effort, never talked when he DID. It's the likes of YOU who are insisting that it has to be about who is evil and the angel. A lot of you are.
There's no hope insisting whether the garage incident is right or wrong because you are already convinced that I am justifying it. You don't want to listen anyway. So you do you. But comments here are just simply recognizing the fact what were JJ's grounds for breaking up in the first place - the reason he was trashed even BEFORE ch 15 - that is being confirmed or shown light by the latest chapter. No matter how you want to flip it, the plot started with mystery around why they broke up.
I'm gonna say this with chest, if Leo doesn't not qualify what JJ did as rape who are we as mere readers to say it is? People forget the only person who can call rape rape is the victim and if they don't objectively it isn't. Bl fans forget their opinions on a variety of topics are just that, opinions. No one needs to care about how you decide to view rape and even if you have people that agree with you it doesn't mean everyone needs to. To me the creator was juxtapositioning the incident in chapter 1 when Leo fucked JJ and left him there with the Leo incident. If you failed to see it as such that's on you. The creator doesn't need to hold your hand for you to understand the story they are trying to tell. I always stand on this, we don't have dominion over how creators want to write their own stories but we do have the option to drop it when it's not what we want in a story. Another thing this isn't the forum to discuss an extensive and sensitive topic such as rape cz I assure most of us are here for entertainment. Believe it or not most of us are very capable of enjoying stories while being detached from the characters. We don't create parasocial relationships with them and care as if they were human beings. I often see fans frustrated that people don't take the subject seriously but just the way you take it seriously other people have the right to also not care about it.
take it up with the author then
Also to add, seems the author basically already predicted that ch 20 will shift the blame on Leo because all the "Leo was never told of anything and was left for no legitimate reason" is debunked by ch 20.
Which again goes back to how come JJ never snapped and went even slightly violent towards Leo while they were together if he was capable of such act in ch 15. He even went to visit Leo at the hospital.
Ch 20 just made that scene stick out like sore thumb for JJ's character. It's inconsistent, as if the scene was forced so that not only it nods to classic tropes, but also force a balance against Leo. So one can conclude they were both horrible. Because without it, it would definitely and easily make JJ indeed a saint. Exactly what you are complaining about and according to the author's intention.
I wasn’t going to respond anymore but your reply felt very dismissive just the way your original comment was. I originally responded to your first comment because you were undermining the rape that is present in the story all for some indignation over a childish character war. The creator has no physical obligation to, but the same way respectfully incorporating serious subjects into fiction, doing your due diligence to ensure that what you put out into the world as far as you can be responsible for it, is properly indicated to be what it is when it contains triggering content is just common decency. You are just blatantly wrong saying that if a victim doesn’t perceive their assault as rape, it somehow negates what is done. Considering that again, spousal/partner sexual violence is often overlooked for the abuse that it is. There ARE implications to the desensitization of themes in fiction. I am sure you are conscious enough not to act out what you read, but despite what you may believe, what you consume does affect your perspective. And judging by how you treat and justify the actions of fictional characters, it makes me extremely concerned. I’ll reiterate this again, but what JJ or Leo or whoever else thinks does not matter because they are not real. Simulated and depicted events or actions that directly parallel real-life subjects are real. The author who wrote them is real. The author can make dub/non-con fetish content for those who enjoy it, I am not criticizing those that do. Saying that “if you don’t like it, then leave” is also again dismissing the valid arguments I am bringing up. I don’t care for the story or the characters, I only mention their motivations because I had been lead to believe through your comments that you do. I intended to make things clear using their characterization as an example. I don’t care if you don’t care about the characters. I am talking about your flippant disregard for the actions of the characters (specifically, rape). This isn’t the forum for these discussions, as you said, I am simply talking to you about your comments.
These people are gonna flip out when they see the trigger warnings in adult series that contain blood, depiction of graphic violence, suicide, gorey things, etc. And it's always warned, but why? Oh, might be because some people can handle seeing graphic violence and others can't. That's also why fanfics in ao3 have multiple tags and a Dead dove do not eat warning so you know that what they added is going to appear in the story.
Read all your replies and also rplilies2011's ones and I'm in love with your texts. THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING.
It's disgusting why these people are defending or trying to minimise what J.J. did. I may agree that we don't need to necessarily have to throw our own understanding of the world to a world of fiction, but I also say that it's needed to understand what the underlying reason behind those actions is. Yes, it's rape. We have to call it out that it is so people can recognise different aspects of it. No, a victim does not necessarily recognise rape after the event. Like someone said, a victim can go through YEARS without knowing they were sexually abused, because it was so non-violent like most depictions of rape it just doesn't "classify" as rape.
I'm not saying this to satanize JJ and call Leo our poor angel that's just a victim. No, I think both are pieces of shit that need to work their behaviour through a therapist, but Leo is inherently a victim for that one chapter. Even the shittiest person you may know can become a victim of rape, it doesn't discriminate. Talking about different cultures does not absolve rape from being that, rape. It may seem "normal" to some people because they have been desensitibilised while growing up around that subject and it's mostly cuz the victims either don't recognise it or do but they're unable to do anything as they don't have a helping circle that can help them get out of there, instead have people who endorse that behaviour and diminish them whenever they try to talk about their abuse. It's sad these people think it's okay something like that happens, trying to excuse with the argument that "it's just fiction, nothing too serious"
A lot of fiction works are based off from our own world, same issues, same problems, same morals, same justice system (some are 'better' some are also as shit), economy system, etc. It's hard to find a fictional work that doesn't have something from our own world.
I'll never fuck with how Leo fans were trying to gaslight the fandom that we are sinners for empathising and sympathising with JJ. In the latest chapter when he tells JJ at least he won't have to deal with his nagging I wanted to cry cz that's just cruel. My happiness for them being together again died a little tbh. I can't believe Leo fans tried to paint him being so mean to JJ as he did nothing. Plus the 'rape' scene is it rape or dubious consent. Leo doesn't even take that situation seriously and his take away is from now on there should be outdoor sex. Like why are y'all so obsessed with calling everything rape even when the so called victim would probably jump you for saying that.
To me Leo fans wanted the JJ is evil narrative to stick so bad that calling him a rapist was the only leg they had to stand on. If JJ had hit Leo y'all would have had a problem, if he walked away and ignored Leo's existence y'all would have said he is continuing to behave like a stone wall. Most of you are chronically online teenage girls whose only experience with love is these very fictional BLS you read. People are allowed to have reactions especially to bs. I get JJ wanting to hurt Leo cz I'd hurt him too. He reduced JJ and their entire relationship to just sex and then y'all are mad that JJ acted just like a brainless sex beast cz 'hey if we just fuckin I don't owe you relationship love making privileges'.The hypocrisy is unreal.