*in autocorrect turned it into one
Of course I know what a genre is. I just don't understand why your talking about that.
*you're
“Rape” is not…usually a term you’d use as a genre classifier. It’s an element of this story. Many would classify this story as being a “Romance” or even a “Slice of Life.”
Or yeah, as is listed on the webtoon here, “Yaoi,” “Smut,” “Drama” as well.
Exactly. I was gonna say the same thing.
Unless you want to rehash the debate? What is YOUR definition of consent, then?
Okay so, I'm just gonna say this to wrap things up. I do believe that if there were no contract then it would be rape. I think we can all agree on that. But I do still believe that now that there is a contract there is no rape, because they have this agreement about sex whenever and wherever. So yeah, that's my take on it. And if you disagree then that's fine. I can understand where you are coming from, but I just don't agree in this situation.
Thank you very much for hearing me out, sincerely. Again, I’m really glad you could see where I was coming from and I’m glad you understand now how at least some of Jaekyung’s actions have been nonconsensual.
I’ve been thinking about the contractual agreement and how it’s been worded and how it’s being enforced. Again, I just want you to hear me out on this. Can I ask first if you work or if you go to school?
I go to school
Cool! Me too :) I also work two jobs at the moment. Okay well technically three…? All part time LOL but anyway, okay—let’s say for one reason or another, you can’t or don’t want to go to school. Can your school force you to go to school? Can they physically take you from your home (or wherever you are at the moment) and make you sit in your classes for that day?
Oh... wow nice!
No, not really.
If they did, wouldn’t that be against your will? Even though you’re (likely) legally obligated to go to school?
I’ll say that for work, even though I’m legally obligated to, well, do my work…I don’t have to. And it is in fact illegal for employers, at least where I am, to force me to come into work, or to keep me at work/force me to work overtime.
To be clear, this doesn’t mean I won’t face consequences, legal or otherwise!
I mean, yes it would be against my will if I didn't want to. But at the same time, I'm going to school for a reason. I chose this after all and if I don't go I won't get any money. Then it would all be for nothing.
Sure! My grades would suffer if I didn’t go to school. I wouldn’t be able to spend money on things I want AND need if I didn’t have my jobs. So I choose to work.
But—I still retain my right to say no. Neither my school nor my work can force me to come into school or work against my will. They can expel me, terminate me, pursue legal action against me…but they cannot force me to work against my will. At that point they are not only doing something outside of the contract, but they are also doing something that is outright illegal in many places.
Let’s get back to the webtoon.
To begin with, we both agree with the FRIES model of consent, which states that true consent must be able to be reversed, and that true consent must be specific. This holds true under contracts as well. Any contract that completely waives out your right to say no is a slave contract, which strips away your basic human rights and renders you a piece of property. At that point it isn’t legal (in many places), moral, or ethical.
So if Dan’s work is sex work, and he says no to doing that work, then Jaekyung has every right to not pay him, to terminate their contract, and/or pursue action against him (more on that in a bit). He cannot force Dan to do work, AKA force him to continue having sex with him even after Dan has said no. He cannot take away Dan’s right to refuse harm or non-consensual acts, even under contract. Doing so crosses over into rape.
Their contract is in and of itself somewhat ambiguous. You said many times that it stipulated that Jaekyung can have sex with Dan “whenever, wherever, no matter the circumstances” right? I do believe you that that’s the exact wording! Even putting aside that Dan retains the right to take back his consent and/or agreement to the contract at any time, the contract doesn’t explicitly say that Jaekyung is entitled to having rough, painful sex with Dan. Dan is 100% within his rights to refuse that type of sex, and ask for something else to be done without facing some type of retaliation, as doing so does not violate their agreement.
All contracts can be renegotiated—even ones where someone initially agreed to all the terms. Even Jaekyung knows this. After Dan wins their little sparring match, he willingly opens the floor for Dan to make requests about how he wants their arrangement to change. Dan makes a couple requests, I believe, but the only one I explicitly remember is when he asks if Jaekyung could use condoms, and Jaekyung refused. Which just goes to show that Jaekyung holds most of the power and control in this situation, while Dan is put at heavy disadvantage, even as he tries to exercise his right to refuse.
So in conclusion, I believe that even under contract, Jaekyung rapes Dan several times. I will lend to you that things become somewhat more ambiguous, even for me, as Dan’s feelings start to develop. This doesn’t change or negate the fact that Jaekyung ignored his previous revocations of consent. Again, let me know if I’m missing anything or if there’s something I haven’t considered.
LMAO I forgot to clarify the “more on that in a bit” yeah the thing is Dan and Jaekyung’s contract is, I believe, a purely verbal one. I’m not 100% clear on what makes a contract legally binding or not, or how exactly to make a verbal agreement into a legally binding contract but nonetheless…unclear whether or not it’s a legally binding one.
Honestly this point isn’t really important to my broader point, but it is an interesting aspect of the contract nonetheless. Given that it’s not necessarily recorded anywhere, I believe it would make it very difficult for either of them to pursue any legal action in the case that either one of them breaks terms. Of course this would likely be much harder on Dan for a whole host of reasons, the most obvious one being he probably wouldn’t even be able to afford a good lawyer. Which frankly shows how in many ways, while, yeah, Dan is being paid well for his work, in terms of consequences? It’s still a wildly unfair contract for Dan in comparison for Jaekyung. Jaekyung, who can easily find another person to fuck, vs. Dan, whose job prospects are still probably kinda fucked.
I think it also highlights the flexibility of the contract. Again, any contract can be renegotiated, but a verbal one that isn’t even down in writing? No lawyers involved in its creation? You, or well, THEY can just kind of do whatever they want, decide on whatever, whenever. Again, Jaekyung can just…not do what he’s doing.
I'm not gonna comment on anything else, I just want to point this out: that yes, we only get to witness their verbal agreement, but I think they also have a written agreement because when they agree on the terms of the contract Dan says something like this: "If you can give me this much money, I'll sign" and if I remember correctly, he also says in a different chapter something like this: "I know I signed a contract, but this is just too much."
AAAND one last thing. The reason why THIS stuff is importante to me in particular is because sex workers and the abuse, sexual assault, and rape they face also tends to be downplayed because they “signed up for it,” even though contracts for sex work also have rules and boundaries put in place to reflect the workers’ wishes and protect them, and even though those workers also still retain the right to say no and/or refuse to do things they don’t want to.
Fair enough! I don’t remember those details/that wording but I’ll take you at your word. That does address the (possible) legality of the contract but I don’t think it really changes my overall point that consent can still be violated under contract.
Thank you for conversing with me. I have been doing work regarding the teaching and portrayal of sex ed and consent for years now so this something close to my heart. Too many people are hurt due to misunderstandings about these things, and because of the culture (or cultures) we live in overall. So even if we don’t fully agree with each other, I really, really hope you took something meaningful away from the conversation, and that you can keep yourself and others a little safer from now on c:
For the people who insist on saying that Jaekyung isn't a rapist...
A lot of you acknowledge that Jaekyung is a violent and abusive asshole though, right? So why is calling him a rapist too much of a stretch for you? If you already think he’s a bad person, then why resist adding the label of rapist, especially when Jaekyung continues rough, sexual activity with Dan at several points throughout the webtoon, even as Dan repeatedly says no? Even without factoring the financial coercion, the threats, the use of physical force, or the power imbalance between them...doesn't no mean no? Isn't it the case that if someone’s no is ignored, then any action that comes afterwards isn't really consensual?
Would calling Jaekyung a rapist disrupt your enjoyment of his character and/or this webtoon?
Because you can still find him entertaining as a character while acknowledging he rapes Dan. I know I've had moments where I had to laugh because of how ridiculously awful he is, but I still recognize what he’s doing. And there are other enjoyable parts of this webtoon, like the art, other characters, their relationships, etc. People who say you're a bad person for reading and enjoying it just because it has rape, even romanticized rape, are being reductive. Enjoyment and acknowledgment can coexist.
Would calling him a rapist mean you could no longer root for him or his and Dan’s relationship?
There mere fact and extent of his abusive behavior, with or without rape, would or should be enough to inspire those thoughts and feelings. Nonetheless you can still want to see how the author “fixes” Jaekyung while acknowledging his actions. Personally, I can't root for the two being together but I still want to see how the author goes about “fixing” him.
Are you differentiating between rape and sexual assault?
The only thing really distinguishing the two is whether or not penetration was involved. And penetration was most certainly involved, which means Jaekyung most certainly raped Dan several times.
Is it because Dan is being paid to endure Jaekyung's treatment of him? Or because at some point he agreed to Jaekyung’s terms?
Financial coercion, or any type of coercion, being used to obtain a "yes" from someone, does not constitute a real "yes." Dan only says yes because saying no would mean him losing life-saving/life-changing money, and him being physically harmed—it isn’t a free and enthusiastic choice. It's like saying a robbery victim “wanted” to give their money to the person holding a gun to their head. And just because Dan agrees to one thing at one point in time, doesn't mean he's agreeing to anything and everything all the time. And even if that IS what he's agreeing on—it doesn't mean he can never, ever take back that agreement. No means no. People generally agree consent can be withdrawn at any time.
Is It because in so much yaoi and in romance in general, no doesn't mean no? That Dan's resistance isn't genuine, and that the story is playing into a rape/noncon/ravishment sexual fantasy?
Even the fantasy is called a rape/noncon fantasy. Rape is the fundamental element of the dynamic between them, even in a fantastical context. So Jaekyung is either raping or "raping" Dan either way.
But to the point of it being a fantasy of some kind...isn't Dan supposed to be shown to enjoy it in some way? Aren't the real consequences of raping someone meant to be put aside for the sake of the fantasy? Dan doesn't start to "enjoy" what's happening until much later on in the webtoon, and it's still only a physical reaction he's having, not a psychological enjoyment. He's still shown to want to have much gentler sex with Jaekyung, not a form of the violent sex that Jaekyung so often subjects him to but just toned down so he isn't physically hurt as much. The webtoon goes out of its way to show how Jaekyung's sexual violence has physical and psychological impacts on Dan. Their first interaction together ends up with Dan staying in bed for days, curled up, sleepless, exhausted, in pain—visibly depressed and anxious. At one point Jaekyung fucks him so hard he passes out, and the doctor who arrives to check him out is horrified by the injuries Dan has sustained because of Jaekyung's treatment. Jaekyung's coach calls out Jaekyung for his mistreatment of Dan for MUCH LESS than what he even knows Jaekyung is and has been doing to him. Even Heesung, shady as he is, finds Jaekyung's treatment of Dan to be awful, knowing full well what it is. What is fantastical about these moments? What is enjoyable?
What about this isn’t this straightforward? I know that why and how the rape is happening may be complicated, but isn’t rape just rape? I genuinely don’t get why there’s so much resistance to calling it that.