Okay, I’m glad we both agree on FRIES. I’ll also agree that Dan and Jaekyung’s “contract” does complicate things but, also, really doesn’t—at least not to me.
Before we talk about their contract, I want to talk about their very first interaction. To me, this case is very clearly rape. At that point they were not under any blanket contractual agreement stipulating that sex would/could be had “whenever and wherever” Jaekyung wanted to. Jaekyung lied and told Dan that he would be getting money for doing physical therapy. Dan agreed to doing physical therapy. It is not until after Dan arrives that Jaekyung says that he would be getting paid for sex. This is called a bait-and-switch, which is a manipulation tactic. Consent attained due to manipulation violates the “freely given” aspect of FRIES. It is also not until this point that Jaekyung says that Dan won’t receive money unless he has sex with him, which is coercive regardless of whether or not Jaekyung personally knows about Dan’s financial situation. Again, this violates the “freely given” aspect.
I’d also like to point out that there is a huge power imbalance between Dan and Jaekyung—physically, financially, and in terms of status. Power imbalances can often muddy consent. This is just one part of why we have age of consent, for example—because the power an adult holds over a child can easily be abused. Or why employer-employee relationships are discouraged. The possibility of the employee being fired from their job and even blacklisted from other places of work if they don’t accept an employer’s advances can and often does create a situation where the employee feels pressured, directly or indirectly, to comply with their employer, even if they don’t really want to (frankly, we saw this exact scenario happen to Dan and his former boss right at the beginning of the webtoon).
But okay, Dan agrees because he needs the money (not really an enthusiastic consent, either). Still, throughout their first interaction, he frequently tells Jaekyung “no” or “stop” or “wait” and asks for Jaekyung to be gentler. Jaekyung outright ignores his pleas, and even threatens Dan and uses physical force on him. He threatens to break Dan’s ankle when Dan struggles and asks him to wait, threatens Dan saying “If you waste my time like that last little bitch, don’t expect to be sent home safe and sound” (referencing someone whose head he slammed into the wall just minutes before) when Dan says he can’t go through with the sex after all, shoves Dan’s face into the mattress before saying “keep testing my patience and i’ll smash your head in” when Dan tells him it hurts and he wants to stop, pulls Dan to him as Dan tries to crawl away from him…and more. These are all blatant violations of the “reversible” aspect of FRIES, as well as the “freely given” aspect. Dan revokes his consent and that isn’t respected, and any consent he does give is under explicit threat of physical violence.
Am I missing something here that changes this interpretation of events? Because this looks like clear rape to me.
Bitch are u still on it? Find something to do in your free time fr instead of restarting debates with people about the nth fiction no one cares. I'm only impressed about one thing, the people who have the patience to read all of u're shit
Okay, but I'm gonna ask you a few question before I answer to all that.
Why do you care so much about what a character in a fictional story does? Why do you feel the need to put a label on it? Like, what difference does it make? Because I don't understand it at all.
I ain’t reading all that
Sure. Apologies for the long response, by the way. I just want to make sure I’m articulating myself and my concerns very clearly.
Let me clarify that I don’t personally care much about this webtoon itself. Jaekyung’s actions do disgust and upset me, but…shouldn’t they? Generally readers are meant to empathize with the main character and feel upset when they’re hurt.
That said, I understand that the story is fictional, and that reading and enjoying it is not inherently harmful. I understand the relationship between fiction and reality isn’t 1-to-1, that most readers can separate the two, that they’re reading it, having their fun, and not necessarily picking up any new ideas from it. But the way that people respond to fiction, especially when that fiction is quite true to life, can reveal a lot about how people think. And all fiction, whether you like it or not, either reinforces societal norms or critiques them. So seeing how people respond to this question of whether or not rape is depicted and the rationale they use is very concerning to me.
My primary concern is with victim blaming. Many have argued that Dan just shouldn’t have agreed to any relationship with Jaekyung, that he should’ve known better and done something differently, that he’s partially at fault for his situation. Doing this not only shifts responsibility away from Jaekyung, who has almost all the power in their relationship, but it also completely ignores the realities of Dan’s situation. Both of these things, Jaekyung’s power, and Dan’s destitution, muddy consent.
Let me not mince words. Dan was deep in POVERTY. He was in crippling financial debt. His grandmother’s treatment was wracking up more bills. He was already working three jobs to survive. He lived in the slums. He was going to be evicted and end up homeless because he couldn’t afford to move to a new place. His former boss fucked his ability to earn money in his own field by getting him blacklisted from nearby hospitals. He was MALNOURISHED, which we learn from a doctor visit.
Given all of this, real choice was he supposed to make? Why should he be blamed for having his vulnerability exploited? If you agree with that consent must be freely given, without manipulation and coercion, then what freedom does Dan really have to say no? Whether or not Jaekyung knew about his personal financial situation doesn’t matter—he took advantage of and exploited Dan.
(Sidenote: almost no one who isn’t obviously desperate for money and yet so unwilling to have sex with it would fold under the threat of having it taken away. If Jaekyung cared not to abuse his power, he would’ve put a stop to things. He didn’t, even after finding out about Dan’s circumstances.)
Dan’s situation isn’t just fictional. It’s the reality of many people who are homeless and/or in poverty, who end up resorting to dangerous, unregulated sex work in order to survive, and who end up abused and exploited because they have no protections and no money or power to protect themselves or seek recourse. And the same way that people are blaming Dan for his circumstances is the same way that people blame those that end up in abusive, exploitative relationships in real life.
So it makes me worried that some readers wouldn’t be able to identify a coercive or abusive situation in real life, and might blame a victim of coercion and abuse for their circumstances and for not getting out of them. It makes me worry that they would blame themselves if they were out in a similar situation, even if it wasn’t their fault—that they’d blame themselves for folding under undue pressure.
This isn’t about the webtoon for me, and it never was. It is about the people who are reading it and how they’re responding to it. That’s the difference that it makes for me. That’s why the rape label matters. That’s why I care so much.
Okay. Thanks for your answer. I understand your points and agree with some of them. And it's great that you want to look out for other people and educate them on this topic. Because it is very important to know your rights in these situations.
Because these kinda situations are tricky and you don't always know how to deal with them. I have been in situations myself where I was afraid to say no to certain things, and didn't stand up for myself, when I probably should have.
Bro shut ur bitch ass mouth. It’s rape. Even in prostitution, it’s considered rape if they said no. What’s my fucking sources, Idk fucking Google?
Like how the fuck do ya’ll yap like this and not now how to fucking cite ur fucking sources. Ya’ll just yapped to some shit
No is no, is such a basic thing to learn.
It’s rape why the fuck ya’ll got have debate. IT’S NOT SOMETHING TO DEBATE ABOUT. IT’S CLEARLY FUCKING RAPE
Calm down, it's a fictional story...
Ye but why are you so compelled of it's genre? It's rape. A rape fiction story nothing else bruu
But why does that matter?
R u seriously this dumb, what the fuck is the point of a genre?
I’m genuinely sorry that you’ve been in those situations. It’s unfortunately a very common experience :/ and indeed, for many reasons, it can be really hard to know what exactly to say or do. Sometimes you do know what you should say or do, but so many things can get in the way of that—fear, guilt, shame…
Anyway, I’m glad you can see where I’m coming from. When I’m having these conversations with people, I usually tend to highlight how strong Jaekyung is and how he uses that strength, precisely to demonstrate how fear in particular plays such a huge role in Jaekyung and Dan’s dynamic, y’know? Because, yeah, it can feel hard to say no, even when you really want to, when you’re afraid of what will happen if you do. And this particular type of dynamic can foster deep feelings of helplessness, shame, and guilt in people—they sit there like you, thinking, “why didn’t I do something?” when in all likelihood they were having a natural response to an environment they felt afraid or unsafe in, and did what they thought would preserve whatever safety they did have.
Yes, everyone is responsible for clearly communicating their boundaries. But everyone is also responsible for creating an environment where people feel safe enough to communicate those boundaries in the first place. Fear isn’t conducive to doing that. And not only does Jaekyung not try to create a safe environment, he also often utilizes his physical strength to scare and force Dan into compliance.
Bro chill out a bit, man. I understand your frustration, believe me, but some people really do just need to have things pointed out to them. Especially in this case where it’s…I mean I wouldn’t say it’s that ambiguous, personally, but I can see how people might not immediately get it if they’re less informed about how coercion works and plays into this (not to mention, yeah, all the socioneconomic stuff I’ve been discussing).
I care And you’d know why if you bothered to read any of what I’m saying and have been saying. I care about real life people, yes, even including you, and how they will be impacted and impact others if they lack an understanding of consent and coercion.
Why don’t you use your free time to do something other than respond to me if you care so little and have so little patience? If you have nothing new to add to the conversation then simply remain silent.
What are you even on about?
This person might just be dumber than a 10 y/o. Do you guys not learn what a genre is one elementary??
For the people who insist on saying that Jaekyung isn't a rapist...
A lot of you acknowledge that Jaekyung is a violent and abusive asshole though, right? So why is calling him a rapist too much of a stretch for you? If you already think he’s a bad person, then why resist adding the label of rapist, especially when Jaekyung continues rough, sexual activity with Dan at several points throughout the webtoon, even as Dan repeatedly says no? Even without factoring the financial coercion, the threats, the use of physical force, or the power imbalance between them...doesn't no mean no? Isn't it the case that if someone’s no is ignored, then any action that comes afterwards isn't really consensual?
Would calling Jaekyung a rapist disrupt your enjoyment of his character and/or this webtoon?
Because you can still find him entertaining as a character while acknowledging he rapes Dan. I know I've had moments where I had to laugh because of how ridiculously awful he is, but I still recognize what he’s doing. And there are other enjoyable parts of this webtoon, like the art, other characters, their relationships, etc. People who say you're a bad person for reading and enjoying it just because it has rape, even romanticized rape, are being reductive. Enjoyment and acknowledgment can coexist.
Would calling him a rapist mean you could no longer root for him or his and Dan’s relationship?
There mere fact and extent of his abusive behavior, with or without rape, would or should be enough to inspire those thoughts and feelings. Nonetheless you can still want to see how the author “fixes” Jaekyung while acknowledging his actions. Personally, I can't root for the two being together but I still want to see how the author goes about “fixing” him.
Are you differentiating between rape and sexual assault?
The only thing really distinguishing the two is whether or not penetration was involved. And penetration was most certainly involved, which means Jaekyung most certainly raped Dan several times.
Is it because Dan is being paid to endure Jaekyung's treatment of him? Or because at some point he agreed to Jaekyung’s terms?
Financial coercion, or any type of coercion, being used to obtain a "yes" from someone, does not constitute a real "yes." Dan only says yes because saying no would mean him losing life-saving/life-changing money, and him being physically harmed—it isn’t a free and enthusiastic choice. It's like saying a robbery victim “wanted” to give their money to the person holding a gun to their head. And just because Dan agrees to one thing at one point in time, doesn't mean he's agreeing to anything and everything all the time. And even if that IS what he's agreeing on—it doesn't mean he can never, ever take back that agreement. No means no. People generally agree consent can be withdrawn at any time.
Is It because in so much yaoi and in romance in general, no doesn't mean no? That Dan's resistance isn't genuine, and that the story is playing into a rape/noncon/ravishment sexual fantasy?
Even the fantasy is called a rape/noncon fantasy. Rape is the fundamental element of the dynamic between them, even in a fantastical context. So Jaekyung is either raping or "raping" Dan either way.
But to the point of it being a fantasy of some kind...isn't Dan supposed to be shown to enjoy it in some way? Aren't the real consequences of raping someone meant to be put aside for the sake of the fantasy? Dan doesn't start to "enjoy" what's happening until much later on in the webtoon, and it's still only a physical reaction he's having, not a psychological enjoyment. He's still shown to want to have much gentler sex with Jaekyung, not a form of the violent sex that Jaekyung so often subjects him to but just toned down so he isn't physically hurt as much. The webtoon goes out of its way to show how Jaekyung's sexual violence has physical and psychological impacts on Dan. Their first interaction together ends up with Dan staying in bed for days, curled up, sleepless, exhausted, in pain—visibly depressed and anxious. At one point Jaekyung fucks him so hard he passes out, and the doctor who arrives to check him out is horrified by the injuries Dan has sustained because of Jaekyung's treatment. Jaekyung's coach calls out Jaekyung for his mistreatment of Dan for MUCH LESS than what he even knows Jaekyung is and has been doing to him. Even Heesung, shady as he is, finds Jaekyung's treatment of Dan to be awful, knowing full well what it is. What is fantastical about these moments? What is enjoyable?
What about this isn’t this straightforward? I know that why and how the rape is happening may be complicated, but isn’t rape just rape? I genuinely don’t get why there’s so much resistance to calling it that.