yapping about the ml bcs of boredom

I just cannot. I wish there had been a better reason for him. To me , his back story is -he saw her from afar and fell for her.. Her father was an evil man and she didn't realize it because she grew up sheltered. And so he hated her and planned to get her so he could be cruel to her. I don't understand.. at all.. nothing was her fault , ever.

That was more than just hating Anete's father. Heiner hated the sistem and Anete was part of that rotten, manipulative and evil sistem. It was the reason of his disillusionment and the base of his atrocities. And u can see that Heiner wasn't the only one, most of the people of Padania have animosity toward Anete Rosenberg because of her previous status as noblewoman.

A rational person isn't going to choose an innocent person they have seen grow up unaware and blame them for the atrocities of their parent or system of government. It's not a good enough reason for me to excuse him . It's like kicking an adoring puppy to death. It was premeditated, he made her fall for him just to be ultra cruel to her, to ruin her life. I mean, if you hated the system and the leader of it, bring them to justice and work to change the system. Don't make excuses for his very aberrated behavior.

Ehh I mean OP mentions this, but Annette, who he mistakenly assumed as someone who would understand, brushed off the death of his friends as just par for the course right after he gets back from being literally tortured. We're very explicitly shown something breaking when it comes to his view of Annette.

You mention a rational person wouldn't do xyz. Heiner obvy isn't rational lolol he went through literal actual torture on top of already having an abusive terrible upbringing. I feel like people want a basic rational ML like we see in other stories, but we're given plenty on why that couldn't be the case. I think maybe part of the struggle is that we see him be rational and smart in these war scenarios or with his subordinates. But like yeah, that's what he was trained for his whole life. Being irrational in one area of your life doesn't preclude you from being rational elsewhere.


And OP also says this: understanding is *not* the same thing as excusing. Just the same as I understand that Annette was how she was because of the system she was raised in, however, that does not excuse her ignorance and the actions that came from it (which she obviously reckons with more recently). Plus annette wasn't just an adoring puppy. I feel like that takes away a ton of character from her and that she has flaws as well.
Plus she's a noble, i.e. representative of the system heiner and his party swore to take down. Everyone hated Annette just for this. That's pretty normal and true to life if you consider the French revolution lmao obvy we sympathize with Marie Antoinette but she was a noble nonetheless and therefore "not innocent"

On another level
Heiner was obsessed with Annette. Despite his hatred, he still cared about her (for better or for worse). For Annette, despite her fear, she also cared about Heiner. Annette is obviously just easier to empathize with.

You're not supposed to just excuse either of their behavior. I feel like that's part of the point of this story lol
but (and I'm sure we'll see this as the story continues) it's the understanding that will go a long way in terms of healing.

You make all good points. I would say tho that ignorance does excuse Annette. She can't be held accountable for what she didn't know.
He also knew that she didn't know... even if she was a bubble head happily living in her sheltered life, that doesn't make her accountable for her father's sins. It doesn't make her purposely do anything knowingly to hurt others. He did. Also, she didn't choose to be representative of a system. She was born into it , and she lived a life she thought she knew and understood. She was wrong, but again, that doesn't make her calculating and malicious. It just makes her wrong. That's not a sin . I also understand about his torture and hard life. But if we want to compare this to real life, as you used as a reference, how many people were in concentration camps but used their experience for good? How many people suffer tragedies, but start foundations to help others?
I understand about human nature and history and prejudice. I also understand shaded characters, that are morally gray, or worse.. .. etc.. I don't need some pristine ML, that would be boring. But, my point was given 'this' story, I can't have empathy for him in his choices.. The OP wrote " What he did was wrong but totally understandable" , to me it's not . I understand he's damaged.. but I think we can all guess they are going to end up together after a redemption arc... and what I said was ' I wish there had been a better reason for him' , because to me it was OTT to plan her downfall when she was not the one who did anything to him or anyone he cared about. If she didn't understand and took it lightly, it's still not enough to entice, court, marry, then abuse and humiliate a person for what he thought would be the rest of her life. He just didn't guess that would be shorter than he expected, and by her own hand.

hahaha you pretty much said what i also thought, the ML is obviously not rational, nobody is, we are after all merely humans. I personally love how the author showed that he is a human with a lot of flaws, there are depths in his character that we, as third person, can’t really relate to so ig that’s also one of the reasons why a lot of people hate the ml. Most stories like his has the so called perfect ML, loving the FL, having a sad backstory but eventually he chose love and gained a happy ending. This is quite unrealistic in my eyes, this story shows a way more realistic side to both of them which i really like.

I personally don’t really choose a so called side cause they both did wrongdoings, the FL was wrong for choosing to stay ignorant, you can blame your education for your action to a certain degree. The fl herself also said that she had a chance of choosing multiple times but she chose not to cause finding out that your morals/values are wrong is something that nobody wants to know.

The FL is in a way ‘better’ than the ML for actually fighting against her past and trying to become her best version which i really give my props to!

I totally agree with you. Him ruining her life merely because of a version of her that he imagined not to be true is totally wrong. I totally do not defend his actions, i’m merely explaining how it’s understandable (in my eyes) why he did it. The reason for it is totally not rational, he was building up all these emotions from the past and he got wronged by many people but eventually he couldn’t even do something like ‘revenge’ since FL father died, so he pour it to the only person left to do it, the fl. She didn’t deserve this.

I do have a different opinion of her ignorance being an excuse for her. Yes, she was raised that way and yes she didn’t know anything about the outside world but the problem is that she actually never wanted to know about it. The scene of that brown haired girl screaming and the fl seeing it and choosing to not talk to her was an example of this. There were many times that she could’ve decided to learn more about the outside world, but she didn’t. That’s what she did wrong and yet again i do understand why she did it. Suddenly finding out that your whole life was a lie and the way you were educated was wrong is not something a person wants to hear but her eventually accepting it and trying to become a best version of herself is what makes her the better person.

They both had their wrongdoings but they both choose different ways to behave. ML still living in the past and the FL thinking about the future.

Ye, the reason I went with ignorance is still her fault is because she chose to remain ignorant. She is now addressing this is her way (yay!) while also understanding that it doesn't just fix everything (good emotional comprehension!).


I think heiner is a case of split and conflicting goals.
He *knew* she was ignorant (iamb is right on that), but(!) he thought that regardless of this (mistakenly), she was kind and good and would have an understanding/make an effort to understand. When she didn't, things broke for him like i said. She kinda just became "every other noble." Man basically had a parasocial relationship with her as a way to cope through literal actual torture and then when life wasn't true to his vision, it probably exacerbated feelings more. So now I'm guessing we're gonna start him tryna be more in the present as he starts to see her as a real person through this nursing arc

im sorry idk if i should see the first pharagraph as something sarcastic or not lol

But yeah pretty much that. Their relationship is literally ruined. I would’ve liked it more if they both just went their own ways trying to heal but idk the next arc can maybe change mind.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that heiner was internally conflicted (to state the obvious lolol). While he did want to "drag her down," he also still wanted to keep her by his side (obv v toxic). He cared for her on some levels while hating her on others.
While ignorance in itself isn't a sin, choosing to remain as such is. Especially when it comes to the life or death of others as was this case.

To the point on why didn't he do good with his trauma,
trauma doesnt have to be a character arc. It can be sure, but trauma is trauma. Silver linings dont always have to exist; you don't have to do "good" with trauma. For as many who do many great things after their trauma or in direct response to it like you mention, there are many more that don't. Some people succumb. And that makes sense, it's reasonable. While some are capable of it, there shouldn't be an expectation to be able to crush the shit you're given into diamonds lol

However, you gotta remember, to the people he is leading, he *did* do "good" with his experiences from torture. He's led them to victory multiple times. He's well liked and praised for his deeds.
It's only the relationship with Annette that there's a very obvious fracture in his psyche. And that makes the most sense of all. Many traumatized folk struggle with relationships.

Oh no not at all I'm just dumb when I write ahaha I agree with you entirely.
I think us (and ML) seeing Annette in work mode and focusing on the now will shake it up at bit. I don't think there will ever be a full redemption, but honestly that'd be hard to do (I haven't read the novel lmao)

In this arc there'll be a completely acceptable and realistic characters development. I'm just sad that there are so many readers here who haven't yet managed to grasp the essence of this well-written story, despite all the hurt, remorse and anguish contained in it.

Sure, I understand that many, maybe even most, don't make something good out of personal tragedy. It was a mirror I held up to his behavior for the ' understanding' given him for being abusive to someone innocent. How far is it ok for him to use his trauma to hurt innocents? If he killed her, would that be understandable? And if a thousand people hate her because her father did something wrong, does that make it right that she be tortured? Where is the moral compass in this thinking? Because that certainly happens in real life also, but I don't understand it, or approve of it.
I didn't expect him to 'do good' with his trauma, this isn't that story :) That's ok. I don't need a perfect ML or FL..at all.... I just felt , for me, if you're going to tell this story I wish he had a better reason to put her through that hell, to the point she tried to take her life repeatedly. Even a horrible misunderstanding would have been better to me.
We'll probably always disagree, especially about her ' fault' in this. I don't thing she has "wrong doing". She had lack of knowledge, lack of experience, lack of information.. she thought she understood how life worked, I don't know how you blame someone for being ignorant. When she saw the woman at the gate, it's easy to believe she thought that was her father's world and business and he knew what he was doing . Doesn't matter.. I'm pretty sure we both feel just as strongly about our points, haha... enjoyed the debate tho:)

I guess I feel that art evokes emotion. If people have a strong reaction to the story, it doesn't mean they don't grasp it, or like it, or aren't willing to give it time to reveal itself.
We are just having an emotional, visceral reaction to it, and the spark of intellectual debate over it just proves the story is strong enough to create that.