So you mean Klopp was justified to do all that shits because he was in mourn and hurt after losing his partner & children. His karma was him having self-turbulence between hate or love to the person who he supposedly hate?
Aeroc here has mental and physical torture to pay for his sin, yet Klopp only has mental problem. I don't get how can you put them in the same level of pain.
What Aeroc did was unforgivable, but Klopp isn't a justified executer for his sin. Klopp isn't God who has the wisdom. He's just the same faulty human who did terrible things to another human.
Until the 3rd lifetime, I was confused to author's reasoning of still making Klopp finding fault at Aeroc after the gruesome things he done. Klopp did acknowledged his fault, but he didn't find it wrong either. Till the end he was lowkey blaming Aeroc for what all happened in 1st timeline. I don't understand why the author justified Klopp to do that. Now after reading your reasoning, I kinda understand. It is victim mentality to justified what Klopp did. Him being the party that lose his partner is a justified reason to be a monster. To do all the scheme and torture. Because this is a husband who's hurt after losing people he love. Therefore, he shouldn't receive punishment for it.
But, you and the author seem to forget the fact that this entitled man was actually like Aeroc but fail to admit it because of his own insecurity. He deny the feeling because he didn't want to admit he was inferior to the noble Taewind. So he chose Raphael who has similar figure to Aeroc. This man isn't a husband who was hurt because he lose the person he love. He made a substitute of the innocent Raphael, because he can chose his nobility without losing too much. He is just someone who live for his frail ego and blame everything but himself.
But what Kloff didn’t give Rapiel justice it was just to satisfy his lust with Aeroc, that’s not karma, it’s self-serving. It’s his guilt to Rapiel that made him look for more ways to punish Aeroc.. to punish his lust towards someone who he could had have without marrying Rapiel.
If you were Rapiel’s mom… if you saw your dead son’s name being used by his ex husband and that kid is a product of the your kids killer. Is it justice? Is it karma? It’s just more hurt.
What people like you fail to see is what Kloff did is bring more hurt. He wasn’t a good partner to begin with, dragging his pregnant wife to gloat at Aeroc. But some people fail to see that little bits that triggered this mess. It doesn’t excuse Aeroc’s sin, but it does give you a sense that this hell wasn’t Aeroc’s making… but Kloff.
I feel angry each time people defend Kloff.. i’m like, you guys saw the damage of this hell on his kids? They will live the rest of their lives knowing they’re conceived through revenge and that each birth killed their mom. That trauma will live with each of them. To add, the twins were born with a lot of defects. If he truly loved his children, he wouldn’t have put them in that position. He was so consumed on hurting Aeroc.. that he was doing more damage to his kids.
In vol 5, he described Aeroc as the devil he made. He saw the damage of his actions when Aeroc screamed at him “if you love rapiel.. you should have done everything for him… why are you doing this to me!?”
If Kloff left Aeroc alone in s1. Aeroc would have healed, he was trying to accept that he can’t be with kloff. But kloff kept egging him and humiliating it…
I hope you think about it… season 1 is about a punisher playing God who tried to toy with two people and in the end he lost both. Rapiel and Aeroc doesn’t deserve that piece of shit tbh…
I didn't say Klopp was justified in doing what he did. Maybe to himself (IN HIS POV), it was justified in some sort of way but he himself says he was consumed by his hatred and I believe he believed he went too far. Like I said, if someone were to take away your everything, you might be consumed by the sweet thought of revenge to make the person suffer as much as possible whether it was a fair trade or not. But after the revenge, you'll prob feel empty bc what you have lost will forever be lost, never to gain it back again and on top of that, you tortured somebody else to make yourself feel better temporarily but even the anger and resentment is gone bc the object of rage is gone.
I didn't say he's a justified executioner but I DID say he's also at fault. I don't really think this story is commenting on whether what he did was right/wrong or justified. It's simply focusing on this vicious cycle of revenge and hatred.
On another note, tt is also never fully explained how Klopp felt about Rapiel in the first timeline. You're just assuming he didn't love Rapiel when they show us how destroyed he was when he found his dead pregnant mate in the alleyway. I can't comment too much on the 3rd timeline bc its not out yet and I didn't read it.
You're misinterpreting what I said. I simply said I don't hate Kloff bc I see his side and can understand why he did what he did. I completely acknowledge that what Kloff did was bring more hurt.
That's the point of this story. What the story is trying to tell us is, what he did, didn't make anything better. Nobody said it did. That's why its a vicious cycle of karma, revenge, and hatred. Karma is defined as somebody's actions resulting in whatever consequences or future events come after.
Nobody said its justified OBJECTIVELY. That literally doesn't matter in Kloff's eyes. What matters is what Kloff thinks and how he views this bc in the end, its HIS ACTIONS that cause everything to turn to shit. You can literally sit Kloff down and explain to him how monstrous and wrong he is and he still wouldn't give two shits bc TO HIM, it does not fucking matter.
His revenge was twisted in itself bc he did feel affection for Aeroc and of course guilt towards Rapiel but at the end of the day, Aeroc CHOSE to punish Rapiel which ended in his death. You can't just blame Kloff just bc he gloated towards Aeroc. You're literally blaming ONLY Kloff, saying his actions make him terrible and yet for Aeroc's actions, you then blame Kloff again? What happened to each character being responsible for their own actions? Aeroc isn't responsible for choosing to send thugs to "punish" Rapiel but only Kloff is?
You might be pulling more details from the novel but I am simply basing this off the manhwa. The gloating and humiliation was very minor in the manhwa but still didn't justify Aeroc's reaction and choices thereafter. So you could say the same about both Aeroc and Kloff. Idk about his twins having defects and of course I can imagine the trauma these kids will experience but that is besides the point, since I wasn't talking about the kids in the first place.
Don't assume that I think Kloff is a good person just bc I defend him and don't hate him. They all played a part in this tragedy, some more than others but regardless,
Aeroc’s action wasn’t excusable, I know that. but if you look at the bigger picture. In the manhwa, Aeroc was talking to Viscount Derbyshire, Kloff brought Rapiel and he kissed Rapiel while looking at Aeroc. It’s like poking a hornets nest.. and hoping it doesn’t sting anyone close by. For me personally, Kloff should have just been happy with Rapiel and left Aeroc alone. Why go to where Aeroc is and purposefully egged him by showing off ‘Hey look! I choose Rapiel!’
So for me.. it’s really Kloff… he made this hell. In Season 2, he described his marriage as peaceful and dull. So it’s like small hints why world 1 was shit. He wanted to spice his marriage by using Rapiel as an object to be envied.
This is why I hate Kloff… he could have lived happily with Rapiel, but he chose to do all those things so he can keep holding onto Aeroc as well. What’s the purpose of this mind games? Aeroc could have genuinely found a better relationship if he was allowed to heal, but instead he was dragged down by that monster.
If you’re going to say that he should have known better. You’re right. Aeroc fell from grace by allowing himself to be dragged into this cesspool, but you have to understand that this has been months of harassment. You don’t need the manhwa or the novel spell it out… the fact you see how big Rapiel’s stomach is like the time frame of how many times he keeps egging Aeroc.
Aeroc should have taken that cruise.. that was his mistake. He should have left the capital and gave himself some time to think. But he regretted it what he did to Rapiel… but Kloff… God he used his wife death as ammunition to do what he wanted.
Aeroc was a sinner, but Kloff is the fucking monster. He didn’t get any real punishment. The imprinting sucks, but he didn’t exactly get any punishment for his crimes. It’s really biased.
Where is this assumption that Kloff has harassed Aeroc for MONTHS? You say we don't need the manhwa/novel to spell it out, then how would we know? I do see when I look back that a couple of times, Kloff did antagonize and humiliate Aeroc but that was only 2-3 times. But Aeroc also insulted Kloff and Rapiel a couple of times as well. Also Kloff didn't really purposely go to Aeroc to do it in front of him. Many times, it just so happens that they cross paths and Kloff notices the envy from Aeroc's face and proceeds to egg him on that ONE or TWO times. Regardless, Aeroc still chose to do what he did.
You make it sound as if Kloff didn't regret what he did but he did and it is very clear in chapter 21/ Furthermore, he did suffer the consequences of his actions especially after Aeroc died. The imprinting part you're talking about is a big aspect of this entire story that for some reason isn't being brought up. If it is indeed true, that he imprinted on Aeroc from the beginning, that sort of explains the obsession, the needs to dominate/conquer Aeroc, and the aggressiveness. But I can't say much since imprinting is not explained in this story yet.
For S2, it was clear that he had developed affection and attraction towards Aeroc and shied away bc of their difference in status. I wouldn't consider that spicing up his marriage or courtship since he really tried to stay away in the 2nd Season. And like I said, we don't fully know how Kloff felt in S1 from beginning to end. The events in S1 also affect Kloff in S2 as shown when he can't explain why he feels a certain way.
So is your point that Kloff is a worst than Aeroc bc the author didn't choose to give him "enough" punishment for his crimes? That sounds like an author/writing problem. Not really a Kloff problem. It seems you're very one-sided which is understandable since we read from Aeroc's POV in the first place. I just think they both suffered and sure Aeroc more so than Kloff but both of their actions put them in that situation in the first place. It's not one-sided where only Kloff was the reason for it all.
You should read novel so you understand the gravity of how bad he torture Aeroc… it’s was cut because of how terrifying it is. How bad it got.. but if you have a weak stomach don’t go near it.
I’m not going to argue with you because I’ll be spoiling the whole book… I read volume 1-6. And seeing as you haven’t read it, it’s not going anywhere and it would be unfair to spoil it.
I enjoyed reading this book because if you read the novel it’s like this giant puzzle piece but in the eyes of AU characters. By the way, I gave that piece of shit, Bendyke a chance. Like you said, both characters had both their faults in book 1.
Kloff pov in book 2. I never hated someone, I was expecting this confident and bright young man. Aeroc spoke so highly of him in book 1, that reading his thoughts made me say ‘Wow, what a piece of shit.’ I understand the hesitation in pursuing Aeroc, his a Count, an alpha and so on. So, his thoughts and how he proceed with his actions were like clues why his like this and that in book 1 but amplified because of his obsession with the imprint. So book 2-3 proved that his a selfish, greedy, inferiority complex, coward and a user.
In book 5 it explores Aeroc without memories. It really made me angry not because Aeroc was not actually bad. But because of how entitled Kloff was. Even in his return, he was still the same piece of shit. You see his part to play in this tragedy.
You wouldn’t understand until you read the whole book. But one thing is for sure and I’ve confirmed reading everything even the authors note, Kloff’s the favorite… she only blames Aeroc, so it is a author problem. I read book 1 and it was inhumane, that’s why I couldn’t understand how people could stand Kloff he dehumanized Aeroc to the point he was nothing. Even defending him. But I guess it’s each to their own. And of course she won’t detail every harassment, it was also a brief description in the novel like Kloff always brought Rapiel with him. I mean she defended both Martha and Kloff in AN so that speaks a lot. Rapiel in the manhwa looked like he was having a tough time being dragged around, but that’s how Kloff valued his partner, but he was just a tool to forget Aeroc. When that didn’t work he became the tool to spice his marriage, if you read how he said it would be so boring and peaceful… like what’s so terrible about that? It’s subtle hints… like I said it’s a giant puzzle piece, you have to dissect the book. But some who did still defends Kloff to my horror… but again it’s each to their own. Especially after reading book 5-6, the If stories is another can of worms. I feel bad it was dmca so you can’t read it.
But if you did… you’ll understand why a lot of people here hate Kloff and don’t defend him. When his motivation got more clearer in his own return (vol5), it made me feel… wow you really created this hell. He did admit that OG aeroc was the devil he created. He couldn’t even face Rapiel out of guilt, but he was damn rude to him. He was glad his foolishness didn’t spread in this second chance.
Which was also the case in the If stories, which was sad… because he should have either left Aeroc alone or have let Rapiel had the chance to be with someone who truly love him. How kloff tried explaining it made me just cry and angry… book 6 pissed me off to eternity that I was just happy Aeroc died in book 1.
Even season 2 manhwa cut a lot of things out. It’s unfair for you… Kloff isn’t a bastard in the s2 manhwa.. so our discussion won’t reach any conclusion, manhwa just took pieces of both books. In the novel it’s a lot more horrible even book 2.. book 3 chap 8.. Kloff was really a horrible character the only good thing was when he started being true to himself and worked hard to be a better man… he saw how selfish he was and actually became decent.
which admittedly in book 5, people got cheated since it was cut after Kloff’s confession of his thoughts about the tragedy… it wasn’t shown how he took this chance, because even at the end he was truly a huge asshole.
Like I said… this wouldn’t be a fun debate without you reading the novel. But honestly… reading this made me think if Aeroc move on from Kloff would his marriage with Rapiel still been a happy one? I don’t think so, if you can talk so crappy about having a boring relationship it wouldn’t be a good marriage. The line ‘Aeroc can’t be in love with anyone else,’ is very telling, but it’s up to how you interpret it. Sadly the problem was kloff was the only option unfortunately… so you can’t explore how would both characters would grow with their own families.
That is a fair point. I agree, since you read the novel and I did not, this convo won't go anywhere. I assumed from your comments that Kloff was a pretty terrible person in the novels. I don't think I will read or be able to read the novels to be honest but I don't mind spoilers either. I think the choice to cut out certain parts from the manhwa was a smart choice bc it clearly makes Kloff less of an asshole. I prefer the manhwa since you mentionned how bad it gets in the novel. It completely does not surprise me that the author made Kloff to be a fucking asshole but also romantize him and only blame Aeroc bc OF COURSE they do. I read my fair share of shitty romance books or shitty manhwas to know that much. I do wonder if the novels make him out to be so bad, were the novels very popular that it resulted in a manhwa adaptation?
Anyway, it was still nice to debate a little. Thanks.
It was fun. Book 2 onwards isn’t as scary as book 1… book 1 took me a month to finish with all the breaks, but onwards it’s fun dissecting it! Especially with the small pieces about the books, paintings.. and small clues about both characters think
What makes book 2 scary is Kloff’s mindset. He comes as this arrogant, entitled, coward with a case of inferiority complex. I truly believe he did love Rapiel, maybe with time, but how he thought of him as means to achieve his goal of a normal relationship. In the novel after their breakup, Rapiel cried he truly loved Kloff… Kloff after their talk, he threw the ring in his desk and immediately forgot about it. Since you don’t mind spoilers… well he’ll find out that Aeroc’s an omega and he’ll proceed to coerce him to be with him and have a baby with him. He wanted assurances that Aeroc is his, without considering how rude he was or Aeroc’s ptsd (we readers know) but Aeroc ultimately agreed to this because of fear.. kloff said “ If you have any thoughts of not liking me or not wanting to bear my child, just give up. You don’t have a choice.” And then he hears that he’ll be allowed to be a mother, he was crying asking ‘I can be a mother?’ He wasn’t mentally prepared for this but that longing made him agree. The situation does improve, but it’s sad that you don’t see healing but more of love solves everything. It’s a good story… i would still recommend it, but it’s not a love story.
As for Kloff’s second chance… it was horrible. I mean I get why he attacked Aeroc, he thought he was in hell. But his following actions and mindset solidified my dislike for him. He was waiting for Aeroc to hurt Rapiel… he would say “that’s right nothing has happened yet.” Which this clueless Aeroc (he doesn’t have memories or so on) thought it’s like his waiting for me to commit a crime. And when Kloff saw nothing happened and Aeroc’s anger towards his treatment, it clicked… he changed after that, he was acting nice and remorseful. He had to make Aeroc take a bad fall first (this is how he got to reinsert himself back in Aeroc’s life, knowing how bad Aeroc was with financial literacy.) this was a hated arc, it’s a good arc for other reasons if you like diving deep in the complexity of how peace literally smoothers Kloff. It’s hated because Kloff settled that he’ll never be with his Og aeroc, so it’s an ambiguous ending if AU aeroc is a replacement or a tool for his atonement. Which is sad. Because this Aeroc who hated him at first.. genuinely fell in love with him.
You know how I found out she didn’t really see Aeroc or Rapiel other than as props. Her AN she mixed up their description… it was so sad. I write as a hobby… but it hurt me to see her mix those things up. The hair and eye color. And Kloff’s childhood and so on were more detailed than Aeroc’s, its sad. You can see from the description how much she enjoyed writing Kloff more than Aeroc… it’s true that this book gained popularity not just because of Aeroc’s crimes but more of how Kloff dealt with it, the book 1 was screaming with all that intense suffering. Kloff is character you either love or hate so you’ll keep reading it. The complexity of his character is really well written unlike Aeroc who is still breaking out of his shell because of the abuse he suffered from his dad.
Anyway hope this gives you a bit of an insight. If stories on the hand is the route if Aeroc survives, it was cute at first all the kids were just so happy to see their mom. While Aeroc was just so happy he kept thanking Kloff. What broke me here was how Rapiel’s death and Aeroc’s suffering was tackled, like I get that Wolflake was going to expose everything so Aeroc had to work with Kloff. But how all that suffering he went through was invalidated, like I can’t love you or be happy because Rapiel’s death would mean nothing. It make sense, but at least don’t invalidate what you did to Aeroc.. it was never going to be ever okay, but it just sucked for Aeroc. Let me message you
I for one, LOVE this manhwa for how it portrays this vicious cycle of hate, karma and revenge. My opinion on the characters is I don't hate either Klopp or Aeroc. I've seen a lot of people hate Klopp for how badly he treated Aeroc especially in the first timeline and many people think Klopp is a horrible person through and through who is unbefitting not only Aeroc but also Rapiel. To me, Klopp of course wouldn't be considered a good person but neither would Aeroc. They both have many flaws and of course we tend to side with the main character whom we experience the story through is Aeroc. Aeroc did a horrible thing--although unintentionally-- still ended up causing Rapiel and his child to be brutally assaulted and then die tragically. The rage and lengths to ruin Aeroc's life is completely understandable from Klopp's POV. Yes, he goes to even further lengths to torture Aeroc which sometimes goes beyond justification. But if you think of it as karma for his sins, Aeroc did suffer many of the similar things that Rapiel suffered. Ex: Being brutually raped, having miscarriages, dying the exact way Rapiel died.
Like I said, there is a beautifully tragic message about this vicious cycle of revenge. It's an eye for an eye but that leaves the world blind. And yet if you ask a lot of ppl, what they would do, they would do the something similar, same or worse than Klopp. Somebody feeling so betrayed and hurt like that won't stop to think whether its wrong or whether it is justified. They want that person to suffer as much if not more than what they felt. Klopp even said himself that he gained some satisfaction for exacting his revenge but at the same time felt like he created his very own hell. No matter how much Aeroc suffered, it was never enough for Klopp. Moreover, he felt disgusted and prob guilty that he felt any love/affection for Aeroc, the person who killed his previous mate and child. When I had first read this and found out what Aeroc did, I was like OH, that's why he's in this state and that's why Klopp treats him so horribly. So tbh I don't understand the hate for Klopp.
One important aspect missing from the first story that I learned from spoiler is the fact that Klopp actually imprinted on Aeroc basically from the beginning which is part of the reason why he couldn't stay away from Aeroc and everything unfolded the way it did. They both suffered a lot to be honest and it was unfortunate that things had to happen that way but it is what it is.
As for the 2nd and 3rd timeline, I think the 2nd timeline is proving to be more interesting with Klopp's POV and Aeroc's regression so in a way it's a 2nd chance for Aeroc to choose differently and NOT let his jealousy dictate his actions. The 3rd timeline apparently is Klopp's regression but as somebody else commented, what if there was a timeline where both remember what happened? I think that is far more intriguing than what we have bc this entire story really is about karma and 2nd chances, What would they do differently if they had the foresight? I imagine in a timeline where both regressed, they both would've chosen differently. In an ironic way, this story is questioning if you had the 2nd chance, would you do things differently? But would it end the same way? How much can you control with your actions and how much is predetermined by uncontrollable forces?