Tj face card declines so bad hes in debt

I love you for this vro ♡

lmao, ig they like his tats

Im crying

real knows real

Personally, I like the depth and complexity in his character as well as the depth in his relationship with Ian. Here are more details if you care:

1. "I just wanna know so bad what yall tj stans see he looks like hes pushing 60, etc."
That's just a matter of taste. That 32 year old is hot. You don't have to think so.

2. "hes also so afraid to be gay because hes scared his gang members gonna call him some very mean words that i cant say"
It would be important to remember that none of them were openly gay until Ian was r*ped, and that TJ could very likely be bisexual or just into Ian. It would also be important to remember that both TJ and Ian were 15 when they lost their respective family members and basically had no role model in their lives. Aside for TJ seemingly having Ian as a role model, he also found that in Jason, whom they both met when they were 18 years old. Jason was adamant in pushing the idea that TJ needed to settle down with a woman and truly build something into his head. For a kid who lost everything as a teenager and ended up an orphan, that logic made sense. It's also most likely that he shied away from his feelings for Ian because he and Ian literally only had each other to trust and rely on, hence the codependency they developped.

3. "He tied down a man so he couldn’t live a normal life and be successful with his hobby because he’s so trauma bonded"
That's true, yet the same is true of Ian. The fact is, Ian's injury wasn't lifelong. As soon as he recovered, he could've gone back to motorbiking (which by the way, was another ploy of Jason to keep them apart while also taking care of them). Ever since TJ disappeared on him, Ian could've also used this chance to leave, but he won't. He wants to stay and find him. Despite choosing to leave the gang because he was afraid of what it meant for him not to feel any guilt over killing someone, Ian now wants to find TJ, find the person who harmed TJ, and kill them. I cannot imagine either of these men loving or caring for anyone else more than they do for each other. That's why I root for them.

4. The subtle growth in TJ's relationship and mindset in regards to Ian drew me in. I thought TJ and Ian were over after their huge fight in season 1, when they told each other the truth and walked out in anger (TJ) and cried (Ian). Plus I thought Jo was the ML so I wasn't overly interested in TJ. I was just reading the story, expecting Ian to fall for Jo. My ship began by the end of season 1. When TJ realized that if he'd had his way and had kept Ian in the gang, Ian could've very well been in the car with him and died in the process. Compounded with Jason's death, all TJ felt at seeing Ian there, safe, was relief. And he also asked himself what he'd been doing all he'd been doing for. He questionned his entire motives and actions up to that point. If he'd been in the pre-accident mindset, TJ would've been pleased to see Ian at Jason's funeral. However all he felt was fear instead. So he chose to walk away for his own ambitions, yes, but most of all for Ian's safety. That car scene they had showed me that Ian might be a lot more intense than I first gave him credit for. I was drawn to that as well. I also loved the fact that it seemed TJ had started to let go of his codependency with Ian after sending him to prison. During their time apart, TJ started to realize that he could do things on his own, that he didn't NEED Ian. The only difference now is that he wanted him. Then, when Ian started looking for TJ and shared this piece of information with Jo, Jo came to the realization that Ian was refering to TJ as family because that was the only way he could explain how much the man mattered to him. That deep down, Ian was subconsciously still in love with TJ. So I went back to the begining to catch bits of flashbacks I didn't fully grasp before and realized that the obessive intensity TJ has where Ian is concerned, is something Ian actually likes. It draws him in. He likes being looked at that way. It's also the reason why when he noticed the same look in Jo's eye, he wanted to test if he only liked being stared at that way, or if he actually liked Jo (hence the camping trip).

Anyway, all that to say, the layers portrayed by TJ and Ian as characters is what makes me love them and root for them.

Thank you for the well-written argument that wasn’t just that he was hot and that his tattoos are hot.
I still do think he’s an asshole; he never had to be openly gay, and he could, in fact, be bi, as you said, but my problem is that he never defined him and his relationship was always more casual; he shows up and they fuck. He didn’t have to be openly gay, but he could put a label on his relationship with Ian-like lovers instead of hiding it because he didn’t want to get ostracized by his gang.
Yes, his injury wasn’t lifelong and he could have left, but he still tied down Ian, who clearly was never a fit to be a gangster. He got shown multiple times that someone like Ian wasn’t meant for this lifestyle, like in the recent episode where Ian could have let Jason proceed to kill Jamie, but he didn’t. An average gangster wouldn’t care if you’re leaving someone behind when you die, but Ian cared, and TJ saw that and still continued to let him get tangled in this mess, and now people are out to hurt Ian because he has shown he cares for him. He could simply not make him go down this route, and I get that Ian and TJ both came from tragic backgrounds and became each other's support system, but if you love someone, you wouldn’t tie them down to horrible debt. He had a choice. It's extremely hard to back out of a situation such as Ian's, and putting it as ‘’he could’ve left’’ is too simplistic. It’s a normal response to be attached to a person that you have known for 17+ years and to seek them out, but that doesn’t mean that their relationship is healthy in any regard at all. To love doesn’t mean to take the right decisions, and often one is blinded by what they’ve known for years; therefore, it’s simply hard to leave everything behind. Sometimes one may not even consider it and feel forced to stay. Let’s not forget that the author is trying to paint just that—a codependent toxic relationship—and how hard it is to get out of situations such as this.

Thank you for the well written response i really do appreciate it.

I’ll sum some of the things that came to mind up when reading your comment:

4. I agree that the mindset change was a move towards the positive, but I wouldn’t necessarily throw my hand in fire that now they could work as a couple.

As you have mentioned, in the time that TJ sent Ian to prison, he could let go of the codependent tendecies, which is also a point as why they SHOULD be kept apart from each other, as when all they knew was each other’s company, we have already seen that it didn’t lead to nice things and i also think that the author was trying to make a point out of that. This was also why Jason was pushing TJ to detach from Ian.

As of TJ wanting Ian, I think that has stayed true for the course of the entire story. Just because now TJ seems healthier than in the beginning it was, again, the time they were apart that made the difference which is why, in the long run, I simply do not believe that a relationship originally built on codependency could work.

You simply cannot erase past sentiments and events, they always linger, as much as your current environment might have changed and its simply better to go a different path.

As for the ‘’looking at one with obssesive intensity’’ I wouldn’t have interpreted it that way: Yes, say it drew Ian in, as in good and bad. I saw it more as a ‘’is it worth the risk all over again’’ and to end up in the same situation of having fallen out with/ drifted apart your once cherished one. Chasing after something doesn’t make that something healthy or good.

1. Sure, thanks for not replying with insults. People so easily do that, it makes having arguments and conversations very irritating. I'm sure a lot of people have chosen their ships based on either of the three leads' looks. I think all the tattoos suck personally, and I'm usually a big fan of those lol.

2. Why are you so sure that it was about him not wanting to be ostracized by the gang? I always saw it more as him wanting to listen to Jason and not wanting to ruin his relationship with Ian. I don't see anything that suggests he wouldn't openly be with Ian now, especially since he went as far as to buy them a house to live in together. In truth, they both never truly faced their romantic feelings for each other outside of sex. In fact, in the big fight they had mid season 1, Ian basically implied that he knew everything TJ had been doing and why, and only pretended not to. So truly, it goes both ways.

3. It's funny, I personally never understood why Jason said Ian wasn't made for the gang. His thought process literally was "he's too pretty for this," yet Ian has shown more ruthlessness and intensity when needed. He feels very cold sometimes, in the way he analyzes things and automatically understands some of the gang moves TJ makes. Not only because he'd been in there long enough, but also because his first reflex after TJ's accident, was to kill. Or how he only quit the gang because killing people didn't disturb him or make him feel guiltyl and that made him feel like he was a monster. Sure, not wanting Jason to kill Jamie was soft, but also understandable since Jamie, Ian and TJ were brought into the gang together.

4. When you say " TJ saw that and still continued to let him get tangled in this mess, and now people are out to hurt Ian because he has shown he cares for him." I don't believe that's correct. The person doing this is Jamie, so he's known how much Ian and TJ mattered to each other years before Ian spoke about quitting the gang. He's just pretending to want revenge on TJ because he killed the blonde boss he killed this chapter when the fact is, he's doing that to get an edge over him within the gang now.

5. "It's extremely hard to back out of a situation such as Ian's, and putting it as ‘’he could’ve left’’ is too simplistic. It’s a normal response to be attached to a person that you have known for 17+ years and to seek them out, but that doesn’t mean that their relationship is healthy in any regard at all. To love doesn’t mean to take the right decisions, and often one is blinded by what they’ve known for years; therefore, it’s simply hard to leave everything behind. Sometimes one may not even consider it and feel forced to stay."
- All true. Hence one of my points: it wasn't just TJ holding on to Ian. They both held on to each other. TJ by being is worst self and Ian being aware of this, went along with it out of guilt and love twisted up together. That's why I'm happy about their time apart now. When Ian was in prison, TJ got to realize he didn't NEED Ian. I need Ian to realize TJ and he can be two separate entities so that if he chooses to be with him, his eyes are wide opened and clear on what that entails. That could mean that he has to accept the cold, violent part of himself. I just struggle to see him choose Jo because he loves and cares about him more than he does TJ. I'm curious as to how the author will make the entire thing unfold.

6. "Let’s not forget that the author is trying to paint just that—a codependent toxic relationship—and how hard it is to get out of situations such as this."
I heard different. I heard that all three characters have dark sides (which Jo only recently started diving into) and that none of them is meant to be seen as a flag of some color. They're all just shades of grey, making life decisions that matter to them. It's part of the reason why I love this story so much. When a character is meant to be nothing but bad or wrong, I can usually feel that through the tone the story is portraying it and I'd hate them well enough to drop the story until I know the endgame .

- Well yes, that's true. A positive step in their relationship doesn't mean they'd work as a couple. It's not a made or break deal for me either way. I only struggle to see them love and care for anyone more than they do each other and I don't think that's fair for whoever else comes into their lives. Jo might be the person who makes Ian turn away from TJ completely, just like he might be the reason why Ian would come to the realization that he would rather be with TJ, rather than without. I think part of why that never was a question for him before is because TJ never gave him the inkling that he could let him go, so it was never a worry he had.

"I simply do not believe that a relationship originally built on codependency could work."/"You simply cannot erase past sentiments and events [...] its simply better to go a different path."
- Yeah, it wouldn't as soon as one of them broadens their horizon. Ian wanting to leave the gang sent TJ into a panic that made him tap into his worst impulses specifically because of the codependency. That's why I also feel they need to be apart (temportarily for me, and probably permanently for you haha) and learn to rely on themselves. Being together, if they go there, should be a bonus rather than a need being remedied.

"As for the ‘’looking at one with obssesive intensity’’ [...]
- I don't think it's meant to be looked at as good, healthy or bad. I think it's just what Ian is into.

1. Yes i agree with you most comments are going based on their looks instead of personality, i personally dislike both love interests. Thank you again for keeping it civilized and not just throwing mean words being around since most people like doing that and then is like fighting a wall.

2. I personally think it is more about being ostracized because of how Ian is completely ostracized by different gangs for being openly gay. For example, in chapter 41, page 27, some random people approach Ian and call him a gay prick. Spoilers: If you haven’t seen the untranslated chapters, please skip this part. Ian and Tj are in a bar, and Tj openly flirts with the girls there. It is said that respect cannot be gained by those who love the same sex, and to me, it's kind of clear that TJ can't put the label that Ian wants on their relationship because he will get ostracized and bullied like Ian. In this same chapter, he still gets mad that Ian was talking to other dudes and pretty much didn't allow Ian to meet other dudes, and it seems Ian was kind of frustrated by this because TJ can fuck other girls but he can't do the same, making him look like a coward who can't admit he's gay because he's scared to be looked down on.

4 & 5: I personally would recommend looking up the raws and trying to self-translate them because I feel like this would maybe or maybe not change your opinion on Ian being good for this gang life and staying with TJ. Raws changed a bit of my perspective, a bit of how their relationship doesn’t work for me overall, and how Ian just needs to give the love stuff a break and give peace a try.

Also, thank you for sharing your opinion wholeheartedly. I didn't think anyone would share their opinion, and I thought if someone did, it would be just a watered-down argument about how hot TJ is, rather than a story-oriented discussion. The argument was well-articulated, and it was good to hear the opinion of someone who read the story attentively and enjoyed it for the plot and storytelling, not just the characters.

2. Okay, that does make sense, and you're probably correct. I personally don't think he's gay, I think he's either bi and/or just into Ian. I also don't really see why its such a huge negative for you. Or did the raw show him publically rejecting Ian and look down on him for being gay? I'd get not liking him for that, though the man he is now is ready to move in with him and decided not to marry a woman, so none of that really bothers me. I'm a big believer on judging people as they are now while using their past behavior to understand their actions. The flashbacks are helpful in that sense, I guess.

4 & 5: Nah, rough translations are never great for me. I've seen people comment on the recent chapters before they were translated and once I saw those chapters translated properly, I simply had a different understanding or take than theirs. So I'll just wait. If my opinion changes, then it does. I like to be fluid that way. I think it's also important to remember these are flashbacks from before Ian changed to the point where killing didn't make him feel anything. So I can only talk about the current Ian rather than late-teens/mid-twenties Ian. Who he is now isn't who he was before, so maybe the Ian now is suited for it while the Ian from before wasn't. I can't really comment on chapters I haven't read, so we'll have to wait and see. Also, I think the purpose of having someone like Jo in his life right now is so he can have a glimpse of what a peaceful life is like. That way he can make an educated decision in the end.

- Thanks for keeping it civil as well. Whenever a conversation goes this well, I'm just happy about the fact that I took the time to share what was on my mind. People often have perspectives I haven't thought of myself, so it's a nice way to expand on the work we both like.

English is not my language excuse my mistakes
You focused on tj all throughout the story and yet the protagonist is IAN. I don't care about jo in truth for me IAN is the biggest victim of this story even if you minimize these traumas

English is not my language excuse my mistakes
You focused on tj all throughout the story and yet the protagonist is IAN. I don't care about jo in truth for me IAN is the biggest victim of this story even if you minimize these traumas
I don't wish you a relationship like Ian's and tj

I find TJ interesting, he was introduced with an ominous air, quite a scary imagery, some dialogue/monologue that could be perceived as selfishly obsessive. But the further we are in the story, the more of TJ, TJYW interactions and backstory we see, it makes more sense. He made mistakes but a lot of them were in good faith, he tangled himself in that web of miscommunication and gang lifestyle, he pushed himself into a corner with his decisions, he struggles with his feelings for YW and their relationship. Contrary to the first impression he cares for YW very much and did a lot for him. He also understands that he made mistakes, especially at the juncture of seasons 1 and 2. It's when he questions his past decisions and motives and puts YW's safety and sanity above all else. His character reads as tragic to me. I understood all that better after rereading the story. Because e.g. the first scene with TJ... his vibe was scary and it seemed like Ian was lying to appease him when he said that he missed him. But after having more context... Why would Ian lie to him? He doesn't shy away from confronting TJ, he isn't scared of him, he never listens to him. So now my perception of that scene has changed. Another example is that at the very beginning we get the impression that YW wants to run away from TJ. Later on in the story we could clearly see that's not the case. There's more scenes like that. All in all TJ and YW's relationship is just very compelling.

He's the same exact age as Ian... I don't think he looks old at all I guess he has a more mature charm than Jo who's supposed to be a pretty boy but Jo is years younger than them.

While motocross was Ian's hobby indeed, in the raws it seems like he wasn't all that thrilled to leave for Malibu honestly. Jason was pushing him into that hobby and it seemed like it was more of a "I'm troubled by the ganglife and I'm fighting a lot with TJ so I might as well go". And it's important to remember that: 1) TJ lost his whole family in a car crash and had a panic attack when he tried driving, the motocross hobby is deeply tied to his trauma 2) TJ only ordered them to scare YW enough so he couldn't go to Malibu. YW falling and crushing his leg was an accident, maybe they didn't think he would fight back? 3) TJ immediately spiraled and went to apologize. He literally tried apologizing twice but YW didn't want to hear it. He understands it was wrong and he regrets it. 4) YW could go back to motocross after he recovered but he didn't. And it's also a parallel to TJ abandoning his career, with YW even using TJ's words. 5) In the new house TJ's building he made space specifically for YW's hobby.

I don't think TJ's scared of being called slurs. It's more that: 1) He joined the gang and wanted a strong position in it to protect YW and secure their future. There's more about it in the raws but YW understood that in this environment TJ wouldn't succeed if he was openly gay (it still hurt YW tho). 2) TJ listened to Jason's advice. Jason was probably the closest TJ got to a father figure in years and had experience in the gang environment to which TJ was adapting. And Jason told him to keep distance from YW, to first get the position and the money etc. Also while TJ is kind of out to him, Jason dismisses TJ's love for YW, calls them 'family' but not 'the family' and pushes him really hard to find a girl and marry (I can sympathise a lot with that situation). And then even YW told him not to dismiss Jason's nagging, it probably hurt like hell to hear 'go get married' from the person he loves and who's the reason he's fighting Jason on this.

But yeah, if I saw him in the dirty new york streets I would run too. Not because he's ugly but because he would scare the fuck out of me lol To be fair I would also call the police on Jo if he looked at me like he sometimes looks at YW.

I’m sorry, but your argument about Ian’s hobby was kind of weird, so I'll sum up a few thoughts here:

‘’In the raws it seems like he wasn't all that thrilled to leave’’
Immediately after the scene of Ian annoucing his leave to TJ it cuts to narration. It is then stated that basically what was once sweet turned to ruins. It is also stated that their goals deepened the gap between them. So no, I wouldn’t go ahead and say that that sponsorship meant nothing for Ian and that it was simply Jasons doing, to tear them apart.

Secondly, downplaying the incident with the leg injury was also kind of questionable. No, it does not matter that TJ was ‘’only’’ trying to scare him away from leaving. Although TJ has his own traumas, i do not believe that is a justification here. As for Ian falling as a result, it’s only natural TJ would feel regretful, as this could’ve been Ian’s last straw with him. Ian didn’t want to hear him out probably because of his own conflicted feelings about TJ and the situation itself, since he didn’t want to come to hate him. Let’s not forget this is all about a not-at-all healthy bond / relationship and that Ian’s decisions are not to be taken as literal as they’re seen.

(Comparable to abuse victims, one cannot assume that the victim is fine with their problematic significant other and what is being done to them, just because they're staying in that situation.)

Yes, his injury wasn’t lifelong, but maybe we’re forgetting that TJ still tied Ian down with the protection debt, which wasn't exactly good development.
TJs development during Ian’s time in prison, on the other hand, is proof of the fact that them being apart is the better option.

As someone has stated above, I truly do not wish a relationship of this kind on anyone, as someone that has bared witness to such situations.

1. No, I’m not focused on TJ. I simply explained why he’s a character I love because that’s the question that was asked.

2. I feel like when you say “and yet Ian is the protagonist,” you’re suggesting that I should ignore the characters around him. And yet those characters are a large pet of the story and they’re a part of what made Ian, Ian. Likewise, Ian had a huge influence on who characters like TJ and Jamie became. When you read a story, you don’t automatically love the main characters so expecting people to read it by hating anyone whose thoughts and actions were driven by their dark thoughts isn’t realistic. Sometimes you even the protagonist (it has happened to be before). In this case however, I love both Ian and TJ.

3. I understand seeing Ian as a victim and I understand wanting the best for him. To me, Ian is strong so I never think of him in those terms because he managed to pull himself back together after everything that happened to him. The fact that TJ is both the person who helped him in staying strong as well as the person who made some situations very bad for him like his leg injury and his time in prison, isn’t lost on me. Ultimately, I want the best for Ian as well, which is why I’m not stuck on the idea that he should be with TJ. I just want him to choose what makes him happy. The time he’s spending with Jo now will most likely play a role in what that is, because he’ll know what a normal life could be like so he can make an educated decision since he already has an idea of what choosing TJ could be like.

4. Are you suggesting I minimized his traumas or are you just saying “even if you minimize these traumas 
I don't wish you a relationship like Ian's and tj” as a statement?

5. Many things come into play when you think of a relationship like Ian and TJ’s. You don’t have to wish it or not wish it for me. I get to have the opinions I have because this is a work of fiction and I can see all the characters’ thoughts and motives. That’s not something you can do in real life. I’d rather not have discussions about hypothetical real life people when I’m arguing over fictional ones.

Really love a lot of the things you had to say. Especially about your first impression of TJ after the first and second read. It reminded me of why it took me so long to realize that he was a ML. Your take on how TJ wasn’t scared on being called slurs was also my take in this personally, I just wasn’t as good at getting my points across I guess . Especially the part where he was hurt when Ian encouraged him to get married; I had forgotten about that. However I also understand the statement that suggests he did this to fit in within the gang. I think all those statements could be true.

Maybe because I didn't intend for it to be "justifications". I only pointed out why those plot points are compelling, why they evoke emotions and why they're not as damning as some make it seem.

"It is then stated that basically what was once sweet turned to ruins. It is also stated that their goals deepened the gap between them." Yeah, but that's about their relationship. I literally said that they were fighting. It doesn't change what I pointed out. If anything their worsening relationship made him want to leave more and he still didn't look thrilled.

"it does not matter that TJ was ‘’only’’ trying to scare him away from leaving" Maybe to you? It does matter for me. Intent is important. "i do not believe that is a justification here" Yeah, that was a shitty decision but it makes me empathize with him. It makes the decision multifaceted. "it’s only natural TJ would feel regretful" It's natural for who...? Because according to some, TJ has no remorse. Jo also made mistakes that he's not remorseful for. So I feel like it's an important point to make. And he couldn't be regretful because 'it might be the last straw', he didn't know that YW was aware it was his fault. He wanted to confess, he wanted YW to be aware that it was his fault. He could try to keep it from YW but he didn't want that. Yes, YW didn't want to hear him out because he didn't want to separate with TJ and he would feel foolish if he didn't get angry after acknowledging that it was TJ's fault. He probably also did it to alleviate the guilt he felt after TJ abandoned his career, doing the same. That doesn't negate anything I said at any point. Their complicated relationship is what's interesting. I would not compare it to an abusive relationship tho.

Them being apart is good since they were trapped in a cycle of miscommunication and sacrifices, like YW said 'doing things for one another'. But I also think a lot of their problems are caused by external factors and that they're both changing and growing.

This is not real life tho. I wouldn't wish YW's life on anyone, I wouldn't wish his relationship with TJ on anyone and I wouldn't wish his relationship with Jo on anyone. We're here for all the complications, angst, growth and dramatized portrayal of feelings.

Thank you

‘’If anything their worsening relationship made him want to leave more and he still didn't look thrilled.’’

Those statements were made in retrospect referring to their relationship in its entirety, not only about that specific situation.

‘’It's natural for who...? Because according to some, TJ has no remorse. Jo also made mistakes that he's not remorseful for. So I feel like it's an important point to make.’’

Its natural. In the sense we’ve all seen TJ and that yes, he cares about what the person he’s known for years would think/do about a situation as big as this one.
I obviously wasn’t one of those that assumed he has no remorse. I simply dont root for them together, neither do I think greatly of Jo.

‘’And he couldn't be regretful because 'it might be the last straw', he didn't know that YW was aware it was his fault.’’

It’s pretty obvious that the cat was out of the bag.
Asuming he thought Ian didn’t know, him wanting Ian to be aware that that is the truth, is him being feeling guilty & regretful that it went this far, which might also affect their relationship. So point still stands.

As for why Ian didn't want to hear him out, one can only argue as to why, as it isn't that concrete and a pretty flexible argument. Whatever it be, it came from a place of internal conflict.

‘’Their complicated relationship is what's interesting. I would not compare it to an abusive relationship tho.’’

Their dynamic is interesting, at no point did I say it isn’t. Just not something to root for.
The comparison to an abusive relationship is in the sense that it’s hard to leave, and just because one ‘’settles’’ with these conditions, it doesn’t make it less toxic.
I didn’t claim theirs is abusive, just that the effects are similar.

Again, I didn't go into detail so this is just a summary / the bigger image as a whole